Best and Worst N64 games?

[frogofdeath]

The tilted picture post made me laugh. Best post of the year! No problems with the N64 controller. Still has the best placed trigger button (Z-button) of any controller.

As for the actual topic, here are some of my favorites:

WWF No Mercy: still the best wrestling game I've played (better than Virtual Pro Wrestling 2)
Dr. Mario 64: I'm pretty sure new version have 4-player, but still a great time with friends
Conker's Bad Fur Day: behind the over-focus on the "adult" content is a really solid platformer
Pokemon Snap: I'm not a big fan of Pokemon, but this game is all around great
Bomberman 64: enjoyed the single-player and actually prefer the multi-player over traditional Bomberman

Of course there is also Super Mario 64, Goldeneye, Zelda Ocarina of Time, and others already mentioned.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, I always "want" to hold it like that, but I can't really play games that way. The right prong is way at the wrong angle and it just kills my wrist. Not to mention up on the stick becomes up-left.

Always a new excuse, it seems.

There are some games, such as the Saturn version of MechWarrior 2, that use d-pad and analog stick simultaneously.

If you're playing MechWarrior 2 for Saturn with anything other than the Mission Stick, I feel kind of bad for you... (the same goes for the Panzer Dragoon games)! And on the Mission Stick, the game works great (far better than it ever could on a gamepad) with just a single stick and buttons. The key is that the throttle wheel controls movement forward and back.

On that note, one unique thing about the N64 when compared to the Saturn and PS1 is that it doesn't have a pile of alternate controllers. Both of those other systems have 3-4 different major first-party controllers, each with some games that require it for best control, plus on the PS1 several third-party controllers on top of that which games require them for best control, while the N64 has exactly one controller, the N64 controller. Other than optional third party controllers which games don't usually really support like the systems' wheels and the UltraRacer 64, there is only one N64 controller. There's no joystick, no (official) wheel, no neGcon, no mouse or keyboard, etc. (Well, there is a keyboard and maybe a mouse, but it/they are only for the 64DD's online service, so they don't have much use anymore obviously.)

The negative of that is that you don't get anything like MechWarrior 2 or Panzer Dragoon with the Mission Stick, but the positive is that every game should be ideally suited for a controller which every system owner has, something VERY definitely not true with the PS1 or Saturn. Overall, as much as I find the various PS1 and Saturn controllers interesting, I think that the N64's is the better design -- one great controller, which everything works with, and is versatile enough to handle any of them. Good design.

There are also Playstation games that use dual analog rather effectively, doing back to the system's original analog joystick and games like Descent.

Sure, there are a few, but it's a very few; Ape Escape, some FPSes like Medal of Honor, not that much else. And the analog stick click buttons, are they supported by any games at all? Some PS2 and PS3 games use them, but on the PS1 they were pretty much never used. I assume that the issue was that games almost always had digital controller support (Ape Escape is the only analog-required game in the US, after all; not sure if Japan had any others), so they couldn't do that much with analog-only buttons like those... so they were just never used. You can find a way to make use of the stick in some games, but the analog click buttons? They were pretty much a waste of money on the Dual Shock 1.

Is it a lot of games? Not really, but I bet it's larger than the number of games that "needed" the N64 controller's setup. The only thing that comes to mind is Robotron 64.

As far as games that "needed" the N64's setup... considering that nobody else had an analog stick when the N64 controller was introduced, how about every single game on the platform that has analog support?

Beyond that, all the FPSes have fantastic controls because of the N64 controller. I've said it before, but I absolutely prefer N64-style Turok FPS controls (stick aims, C-buttons move) to dual analog FPS controls. I still can't quite figure those out, but Turok-style N64 controls work fantastically...

And on that note, the N64's C-buttons are pretty much a second "stick", so the PS1 doesn't have much of an advantage there. Plus if games use both sticks, they don't usually use the face buttons for much (minor functions you need to use rarely, because you have to let go of the stick to press them...), while on the N64 using the C-buttons with A and B is easy and natural. Oh, and they're also quite nice for camera control in other games, of course.

But in general, that all N64 games have the analog option was fantastic. You can't quite match that on the PS1 or Saturn, which each have many digital-only-control games. The N64's design was superior from the start, and then the others had to play catchup... but were still left with large libraries of inferior-controlling 3d games with digital-only controls.

I guess I just don't see that. I have no issue whatsoever on Saturn, Dreamcast, Gamecube, or Xbox switching between the analog stick and d-pad. I don't find my thumb to be in a poor position either way.

It's worse on Sony's controllers than on any of those four, though of them the Gamecube's is probably the worst, since that's the most Sony-like of the four controllers you listed there. Because of the somewhat odd angles involved I don't mind it much on the Saturn 3D controller either, but the Gamecube, Dreamcast, Xbox, PS1/2... yeah, both work, but the upper position is definitely more comfortable than the lower.

I really don't think that's accurate. The N64 controller is the weirdest-looking, most unfamiliar controller of its time.

Only in the minds of people who hate it. And yes, I didn't make that up -- that was a very definitely stated goal of Nintendo's from back in 1996. As I said earlier in the thread, though, they under-estimated how many games would use the d-pad, which is part of why it's on the left, along with that "make it more familiar" reason.

[j_factor]

Always a new excuse, it seems.

Oh come on. What is this, third grade? I could've replied to your posts from the get-go with the same lazy, dismissive snideness if I wanted that kind of attitude.

The negative of that is that you don't get anything like MechWarrior 2 or Panzer Dragoon with the Mission Stick, but the positive is that every game should be ideally suited for a controller which every system owner has, something VERY definitely not true with the PS1 or Saturn. Overall, as much as I find the various PS1 and Saturn controllers interesting, I think that the N64's is the better design -- one great controller, which everything works with, and is versatile enough to handle any of them. Good design.

Yeah, I find that less than ideal. While (arguably) the N64 didn't need anything like the Mission Stick, its controller is definitely no substitute for a mouse or light gun.

Sure, there are a few, but it's a very few; Ape Escape, some FPSes like Medal of Honor, not that much else. And the analog stick click buttons, are they supported by any games at all? Some PS2 and PS3 games use them, but on the PS1 they were pretty much never used. I assume that the issue was that games almost always had digital controller support (Ape Escape is the only analog-required game in the US, after all; not sure if Japan had any others), so they couldn't do that much with analog-only buttons like those... so they were just never used. You can find a way to make use of the stick in some games, but the analog click buttons? They were pretty much a waste of money on the Dual Shock 1.

I'm not sure why you keep harping on those. What difference does it make? They're not necessary, they don't get in the way. It's pretty easy to just not notice that they're there.

(To answer your question, a few driving games let you click to activate turbo and/or rear view.)

As far as games that "needed" the N64's setup... considering that nobody else had an analog stick when the N64 controller was introduced, how about every single game on the platform that has analog support?

You know what I meant.

Beyond that, all the FPSes have fantastic controls because of the N64 controller. I've said it before, but I absolutely prefer N64-style Turok FPS controls (stick aims, C-buttons move) to dual analog FPS controls. I still can't quite figure those out, but Turok-style N64 controls work fantastically...

I don't see how Turok would control any worse if you got rid of the middle prong and put the analog stick on the left.

And on that note, the N64's C-buttons are pretty much a second "stick", so the PS1 doesn't have much of an advantage there. Plus if games use both sticks, they don't usually use the face buttons for much (minor functions you need to use rarely, because you have to let go of the stick to press them...), while on the N64 using the C-buttons with A and B is easy and natural. Oh, and they're also quite nice for camera control in other games, of course.

The C buttons aren't analog, though. So you couldn't quite replicate something like Medal of Honor; you'd need a "walk" button. A and B are replaced by L2 and R2, I don't see any difference there.

But in general, that all N64 games have the analog option was fantastic. You can't quite match that on the PS1 or Saturn, which each have many digital-only-control games. The N64's design was superior from the start, and then the others had to play catchup... but were still left with large libraries of inferior-controlling 3d games with digital-only controls.

Large libraries of inferior-controlling 3d games with digital-only controls? Like what? There really aren't that many Playstation or Saturn games that were digital-only and suffered from it. I don't feel that, say, Jumping Flash needed analog control.

Only in the minds of people who hate it. And yes, I didn't make that up -- that was a very definitely stated goal of Nintendo's from back in 1996. As I said earlier in the thread, though, they under-estimated how many games would use the d-pad, which is part of why it's on the left, along with that "make it more familiar" reason.

Well if that was their goal, they failed, because the N64 controller is clearly the most unfamiliar. Previous controllers did not have multiple handles for using them in different ways. Hell, just look at the argument earlier in this thread about how to hold the N64 controller. How many other controllers have people disagreeing on how to hold them? It's not just "the minds of people who hate it"; the controller had a mixed reception from the start, and its use had to be demonstrated by Nintendo, rather than being readily apparent.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, I find that less than ideal. While (arguably) the N64 didn't need anything like the Mission Stick, its controller is definitely no substitute for a mouse or light gun.

As much as I like teh Mission Stick, the N64 (or Xbox, or most modern consoles)'s way is better overall, because you don't need a bunch of expensive, uncommon controllers to get ideal control in games; you have it with the default pad.

I mean, sure, a joystick for the N64 might have been nice, but a mouse? Console mice are rarely very useful... and as for a light gun, I'm terrible with those anyway so I usually do just as well (or better) with a gamepad... though the N64 has only one lightgun-ish game, and it's average at best, I guess if it had a gun you'd think it'd have had more? I don't think that was much of a loss though.

I'm not sure why you keep harping on those. What difference does it make? They're not necessary, they don't get in the way. It's pretty easy to just not notice that they're there.

Just pointing out that Sony's controller has legitimately useless buttons, while Nintendo's doesn't.

(To answer your question, a few driving games let you click to activate turbo and/or rear view.)

It's used in very, VERY few games.

You know what I meant.

Pointing out that the N64 controller was the first console gamepad in a long time with analog is a very valid point, though... the others were inspired by them, pretty much. That does matter.

I don't see how Turok would control any worse if you got rid of the middle prong and put the analog stick on the left.

Because then were would the d-pad go? As I've said, "both on the same prong" is not quite as good design, I think. And also, the Z button needs to be there, not just a boring shoulder button like L. You need that trigger.

The C buttons aren't analog, though. So you couldn't quite replicate something like Medal of Honor; you'd need a "walk" button. A and B are replaced by L2 and R2, I don't see any difference there.

What, as if you actually walk around in any non-stealth FPS? Since when? PC FPSes usually have a "walk" button, but almost no one ever uses it... no, I don't see that as a relevant factor at all. In FPSes, you generally want to run all the time.

And if a "walk" button really is so important, then map it to something. Put it on R or something maybe, I don't know.

Large libraries of inferior-controlling 3d games with digital-only controls? Like what? There really aren't that many Playstation or Saturn games that were digital-only and suffered from it. I don't feel that, say, Jumping Flash needed analog control.

Pretty much any 3d game (not counting fighting games, since those are better with digital control) released on the PS1 or Saturn that doesn't have analog support would be better with it. That's a lot of games. There isn't much reason to list examples because of how many there are, but if you really need examples, fine, I'll list a few... how about Solar Eclipse, Independence Day, TigerShark, Impact Racing, Psybadek, Bubsy 3D, Critical Depth, Willy Wombat, JetMoto, ShipWreckers, Total Eclipse Turbo, Tunnel B1, Bug!, Bug Too!, Street Racer, Bravo Air Race, Warhawk, Off-World Interceptor Extreme, CyberSpeed, Hi-Octane... and plenty more I'm sure. Lots of stuff on PS1/Saturn from 1994-1997. A lot of 3d games on the Jaguar also could be listed here, and any 3DO ones that don't have gun or flightstick support.

Well if that was their goal, they failed, because the N64 controller is clearly the most unfamiliar.

In your opinion.

Previous controllers did not have multiple handles for using them in different ways. Hell, just look at the argument earlier in this thread about how to hold the N64 controller. How many other controllers have people disagreeing on how to hold them?

There isn't really an argument, just some people who hold it wrong. I'm sure that there are other controllers than could be held wrong too. It's not hard to learn, and I do not agree that this is a negative for the controller. Once learned, it works great, and that's what matters.

It's not just "the minds of people who hate it"; the controller had a mixed reception from the start, and its use had to be demonstrated by Nintendo, rather than being readily apparent.

A lot of people liked it once they used it. Some didn't, sure, but almost every controller has its critics. The N64 controller might be more divisive than some, but given that some people really love it, can't you tell that it is a good design? I mean, we're not talking about something like the Jaguar here, where only a tiny number of people like it while almost everyone else hates the thing!

[Manga4life]

My absolute favorite N64 games had to be Super Mario 64 and Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but I loved NBA Courtside 2: Featuring Kobe Bryant and WWF: No Mercy as far as sports games went. Goldeneye 007 was amazing for a shooting title, Star Fox 64 was a fun flying/shooting game, and there were a few other titles that made the Nintendo 64 a fun system.

I kind of miss the PSX/N64 era of gaming. It's funny I say that because I wasn't too into it at the time, I enjoyed it but missed the 16-bit era of gaming around this time.....funny how time changes feelings.