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Thread: Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

  1. #1
    Kirby (Level 13)
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    Default Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

    I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

    With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


    Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

    I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    I'm still shocked how much people care about pieces of wood, glass, metal and plastic and how willing they are to spew rage and indignation onto the internet.

    Enjoy the nostalgia, pass on your happiness to others and just generally have a good time. Or talk to someone about it, because damn.

    Peace, love, flowers and Insert Coin.

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    Cherry (Level 1) Xander's Avatar
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    I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

    At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

    TL;DR: Slippery slope.

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    Kirby (Level 13)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

    At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

    TL;DR: Slippery slope.
    Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.

    The idea to me is that it's not the job of a select group of people to smear and attack someone seeking repairs and/or help. That's why that saying 'buyer beware' is out there a you need to think for yourself, not just attack anyone attempting to work on their own stuff they rightfully own as if their property is socialist community property. I know the fear is real, but telling people what to do with their own goods I find far more offensive.

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    Pac-Man (Level 10) Rickstilwell1's Avatar
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    Personally I just figure if I run into a counterfeit items I can get a refund from whoever sells them to me. If you can't tell a fake from real yourself, you wouldn't be as hardcore of a collector you say you are.
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    Not as extreme as Rickstilwell though.[/quote]



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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit. (since that seems to be where this discussion is going)

    Apparently this is acceptable to the majority of people despite being outright piracy.

    Flashcarts and the like I have no issue with because while they can be used as tools for piracy, the usage of the device is up to the purchaser. When you've burned a downloaded/stolen (and let's face it the majority of these proto/unreleased games were outright stolen from gaming magazines and such) and sold it for profit you are no different than the guy selling burned copies of The Avengers on the street. You just get to hide behind nostalgia to excuse your crimes.

    To the original point of the thread (unless I've missed it completely) when you own your own cabinet you can do whatever the hell you want to it - it's yours. Pee on it, paint it neon, turn it into a fish tank. If it's a game I would have liked to own myself at some point I'm sad to see it defaced/damaged, but c'est la vie.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

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    Kirby (Level 13)
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    Well said rick, exactly why I said due diligence.

    Skaar I'm not going to lie I do have Starfox 2, but that said I agree with you entirely too, especially on hacks and in particular translation hacks. Translations just bug me because you're effectively stealing not just the original game, but also someone elses 100s of hours of man hours put into say doing FF5 or Sailor Moon Another Story for SFC into english and I'm sure every one of those compensates the translator amateur too for their time. The real fact is though all reproductions are warez, cut and dry warez. The fact multiple sites, even this one and NA seem to not care and gloss over it entirely but heaven forbid linking up a ROM from off site. It's fine to peddle warez in a nice wrapper that works on real hardware, but dare link up a rom and your ass is grass which is hypocritical to me entirely but that is an entirely different discussion than replacing labels on a cart.


    Here's a thought to advance the whole restoration thing. What if I knew a site that sold sticker paper in bulk that if you get the right style and find the right printer to make a copy label it in theory could come off very close in quality to a non-laminate glossy paper sticker midlife SNES and later stuff through N64 and beyond have used. Would that start a shit storm or be appreciated?

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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    I'd be quite happy if someone started selling printed labels of games so I could restore my carts. Provided it charged enough to make a reasonable profit over operating costs, this would be a valuable service to the retrogaming community who just wants their games to look nice.

    NA is paranoid about market prices and keeping values high to justify the money they've poured into the hobby.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

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    Pretzel (Level 4) Polygon's Avatar
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    Since I'm not collecting games as an investment, I love the idea of replacement parts. Especially reproduction labels, boxes, and manuals. I like having complete games as it appeals to might slightly OCD side. I don't give a crap if they're original or not. I just like to have them and in really nice condition. The prices these days for complete games, especially for Nintendo systems, is out of hand. I can understand the concern of these reproduction parts finding their way into the market and people being sold these items as original, and paying a pretty penny for them, thinking so. This is nothing new, it happens in ALL collectors markets. Hell, it's already happening in gaming. I see it all the time on eBay with manuals and cover art.

    Regardless, I welcome it. I could complete all my games with nice boxes and manuals and that would make me very happy. I won't pay the high price as if they were original, but I'm happy to pay for them for the right price.
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    Kirby (Level 13)
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    True people passing off repros on ebay is out of hand and disgusting what they go for, no argument there.

    I was tipped off last year by one of the large repro makers to a paper house online with a particular type of sticker paper they have that works to make a solid label of the later era kind for the SNES stuff which bleeds into the cheapo ones the GBC, GBA and N64 have too. If you want to seal it, the best so far would be buying clear packing tape from a spot like Office Depot and layering it over the print out before cutting it.

    I wasn't kidding when I said I know a way, but I just don't want to get stuck with a minimum order of like a 100 sheets. I've got 2 games, technically 3 I'd have done up and that's it and that could all fit to one sheet given no screw ups. A key thing is when you get the paper you get a laser printer blend made for that kind, not the cheap crap for home user deskjet type paper and then take it to an office depot or like store and have them use the appropriate printer.

    Now I don't know what it would cost to have a local store print it, perhaps a couple bucks? The pack of 100 sheets would be around $40. You do the math, I think you could probably do a label for $5 plus shipping?
    Last edited by Tanooki; 05-02-2013 at 01:48 PM.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    There's this weird paranoia/protectionism about label scans and reproduction art out there - but I hear there are repositories of high res scans.

    I wonder what interest would be in a "complete set" print run of all boxes and labels for a system for a set fee? The uncut sheets of labels would make some wicked game room wallpaper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

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    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit.
    So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flam View Post
    So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused.
    You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

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    Well, I don't really know what exactly you mean by "restoration" here. If somebody is making fan-made reproductions of labels, boxes, manuals, whatever and then trying to sell the game as the real thing to me, that I wouldn't appreciate. If they're doing it just for their own sake and don't intend to sell later and dupe anybody, knock your socks off. Now, if you're talking super anal collectors who would be bothered if I, say, replace a cracked part of a generic jewel case with a 100% identical replacement or if I use some glue to seal down a label that's sticking up, I think they're just being stupid.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Buyatari's Avatar
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    The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

    People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.

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    Key (Level 9) wiggyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    True people passing off repros on ebay is out of hand and disgusting what they go for, no argument there.

    I was tipped off last year by one of the large repro makers to a paper house online with a particular type of sticker paper they have that works to make a solid label of the later era kind for the SNES stuff which bleeds into the cheapo ones the GBC, GBA and N64 have too. If you want to seal it, the best so far would be buying clear packing tape from a spot like Office Depot and layering it over the print out before cutting it.

    I wasn't kidding when I said I know a way, but I just don't want to get stuck with a minimum order of like a 100 sheets. I've got 2 games, technically 3 I'd have done up and that's it and that could all fit to one sheet given no screw ups. A key thing is when you get the paper you get a laser printer blend made for that kind, not the cheap crap for home user deskjet type paper and then take it to an office depot or like store and have them use the appropriate printer.

    Now I don't know what it would cost to have a local store print it, perhaps a couple bucks? The pack of 100 sheets would be around $40. You do the math, I think you could probably do a label for $5 plus shipping?

    Buy a cheap dye sublimation printer. Print cart labels. Done.

    I use a sub-$100 Canon for this purpose and they look as good as, if not better than originals (much higher resolution from inkjet versus offset printing).

    Laser is NOT the best option for quality, ever. It's really only good as a medium between the quality (but SLOW print rate) of inkjet, and the very high speed run rate (but with the poorest image quality) of offset printing. I.e. great for printing presentation packets and the like for a small business, not so great for high quality reproduction.



    On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buyatari View Post
    The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

    People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.
    This. It is possible to reproduce labels past being able to tell from the human eye. You'd have to open the game up and boot it to know if it's legit.

    Someone like Wiggy could pass of repros as originals and you would never even know. Only thing to go by would be his word and I'm not going to trust someone just because they say they won't do something. I don't care what someone does with their own property, but I would be hesitant about purchasing repros from someone making them that doesn't care if the people he is selling them to is aware.

    If someone is bothering to make repros labels they should care because it's their responsibility to let the seller know before selling the games. Specially if the labels you use are so good you can't tell. Kind of sounds like someone with potential for fraud.

  18. #18
    loves the Game Gear too much. recorderdude's Avatar
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    I personally strongly support the creation and sale of repro labels/carts that are clearly visible as repro labels/carts. Be it a mark, differently-colored case or cartridge or just a visible indication that it's not an original of any form.

    However, I cannot support reproductions made to look EXACTLY like the originals. It's more or less that it could fall into the wrong hands, not that I think the actual creator would do anything bad with it. So yeah, IMO, if you make an exact repro, it's yours, but it's immoral it if you don't note it's a repro and, even if you do, it's not necessarily a good idea.

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    If you see a Megaman Wily Wars ntsc cart for 160$ on genesis and you buy it, I guess its your problem. If you are a collector, you should know about these games, and im sure everybody here would not be fooled easily by a repro that was never released in your country. As time goes by, the sticker labels are sun burnt and get damaged, personally I dont have a problem with replacing them, a sticker is a sticker! I have changed a couple of damaged ones and they look great, I dont like having a torn off label with rental stickers, I prefer removing it and replace it. Car collectors that owns classic cars from the 50's dont keep the original rusted paint job and broken parts, they fix it and do a new paint job. I see it the same way. I prefer having complete good looking games than just a former rental cart that looks like shit, I think making new nes or snes boxes and labels is a good idea. As for making complete repros like earthbound, well thats wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.
    There's a bit of a difference between pure restoration and reproduction parts. Nobody really cares about replacing capacitors or save batteries in carts, it's expected that those parts eventually wear out and need replacements. It's when you start using reproduction parts to replace things that shouldn't ever need to be replaced that people get upset. Gluing down a peeling label isn't that big of a problem, outright replacing a label might be.

    As for old books, if you have a rare book missing the dust jacket and you buy a reproduction to replace it, these often are marked as a reproduction somewhere on it. Usually it's marked on the inside flap, not on the outside of the jacket. It's one of the differences between restoration work and reproduction that people care about. Restoring pages or binding isn't replacing any of the existing materials, people care about the actual paper pages and not the glue that holds them together.

    Plus with restoration work with the items you described, they're done by professionals. They're not just done by anyone at their own home which can vary in quality and has no documentation available. Usually the restoration viewed positively is anything that prevents further degradation of the item being restored, such as what you described with books. Restoration for purely cosmetic reasons could be viewed either way depending on the collector. It's the same with autographs, most people view autographed books as being more valuable while others see them as defaced. I know with bicycle collectors people prefer old bicycles being fully original down to the original tires if possible, they just get restored if they're in really bad condition to preserve them.

    Personally I'm against labels being replaced as it doesn't help prevent degradation of the cartridge, it's not like the cartridge would further wear out if the damaged label stays in place. To me it just makes it harder later on to find legit copies in excellent shape, most people would be buying games over the internet rather than inspecting them in person like with cars. Just going by some photos won't be enough to see the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PreZZ View Post
    If you see a Megaman Wily Wars ntsc cart for 160$ on genesis and you buy it, I guess its your problem. If you are a collector, you should know about these games, and im sure everybody here would not be fooled easily by a repro that was never released in your country. As time goes by, the sticker labels are sun burnt and get damaged, personally I dont have a problem with replacing them, a sticker is a sticker! I have changed a couple of damaged ones and they look great, I dont like having a torn off label with rental stickers, I prefer removing it and replace it. Car collectors that owns classic cars from the 50's dont keep the original rusted paint job and broken parts, they fix it and do a new paint job. I see it the same way. I prefer having complete good looking games than just a former rental cart that looks like shit, I think making new nes or snes boxes and labels is a good idea. As for making complete repros like earthbound, well thats wrong.
    Exactly!

    I recently bought the Wily Wars. I sure wasn't going to pay $160 for it. I ended up buying the same thing for just under $50. Also, I think you're analogy of cars is excellent. There are some of these classic cars, a Camaro for example, where you can order pretty much every part from a catalog. You could build your own brand new, reproduction Camaro. The only problem with the analogy is that with cars, it's not so easy to pass off a fake due to VINs and many other identified. But I'm completely with you on new boxes and labels. That's something I would pay decent money for.

    Perhaps it's a service Wiggy could offer?
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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buyatari View Post
    The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

    People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.
    So restriction of information and censorship of conversation to protect values in a hobby where prices have been skyrocketing beyond the affordable.

    Gotcha.

    So because some guy wants to make sure he's spending $1500 on the right piece of plastic, I'm never going to have a nice label on my copy of Mega Man.

    How about we focus on what's good for the gamers and fans of the systems before the needs of those who buy and sell games for profits? I'd like to think we count too.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

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    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Little Samson for everyone! That's what I want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.
    It was a joke. I don't feel the least bit guilty.

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    Personally i'm of the mindset to leave things as they are. If the condition bothers you, it may be best to walk away. I left behind a number of copies of Herc's Adventures over the years because of sunburned manuals. I've walked away from a huge number of games that had trashed inserts, gouged discs and the like that I wanted to own/play.

    When I am getting things, I want them original. Not something that has had a new label printed up and slapped on. If you just want the game (be it to play or just have), don't care about condition then get it and enjoy it. Buying it for your collection piece and you care about condition, then you may want to wait for something better to come along.

    People have been doing touch ups/restorations on things for a LONG time. Far too many come out like this in the end.

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