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Thread: Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

  1. #21
    Pretzel (Level 4) Polygon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreZZ View Post
    If you see a Megaman Wily Wars ntsc cart for 160$ on genesis and you buy it, I guess its your problem. If you are a collector, you should know about these games, and im sure everybody here would not be fooled easily by a repro that was never released in your country. As time goes by, the sticker labels are sun burnt and get damaged, personally I dont have a problem with replacing them, a sticker is a sticker! I have changed a couple of damaged ones and they look great, I dont like having a torn off label with rental stickers, I prefer removing it and replace it. Car collectors that owns classic cars from the 50's dont keep the original rusted paint job and broken parts, they fix it and do a new paint job. I see it the same way. I prefer having complete good looking games than just a former rental cart that looks like shit, I think making new nes or snes boxes and labels is a good idea. As for making complete repros like earthbound, well thats wrong.
    Exactly!

    I recently bought the Wily Wars. I sure wasn't going to pay $160 for it. I ended up buying the same thing for just under $50. Also, I think you're analogy of cars is excellent. There are some of these classic cars, a Camaro for example, where you can order pretty much every part from a catalog. You could build your own brand new, reproduction Camaro. The only problem with the analogy is that with cars, it's not so easy to pass off a fake due to VINs and many other identified. But I'm completely with you on new boxes and labels. That's something I would pay decent money for.

    Perhaps it's a service Wiggy could offer?
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  2. #22
    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buyatari View Post
    The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

    People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.
    So restriction of information and censorship of conversation to protect values in a hobby where prices have been skyrocketing beyond the affordable.

    Gotcha.

    So because some guy wants to make sure he's spending $1500 on the right piece of plastic, I'm never going to have a nice label on my copy of Mega Man.

    How about we focus on what's good for the gamers and fans of the systems before the needs of those who buy and sell games for profits? I'd like to think we count too.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

  3. #23
    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Little Samson for everyone! That's what I want.

  4. #24
    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.
    It was a joke. I don't feel the least bit guilty.

  5. #25
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    Personally i'm of the mindset to leave things as they are. If the condition bothers you, it may be best to walk away. I left behind a number of copies of Herc's Adventures over the years because of sunburned manuals. I've walked away from a huge number of games that had trashed inserts, gouged discs and the like that I wanted to own/play.

    When I am getting things, I want them original. Not something that has had a new label printed up and slapped on. If you just want the game (be it to play or just have), don't care about condition then get it and enjoy it. Buying it for your collection piece and you care about condition, then you may want to wait for something better to come along.

    People have been doing touch ups/restorations on things for a LONG time. Far too many come out like this in the end.

    Because it makes no attempt to be great, it is therefore extremely great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggyx View Post
    On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.
    Exactly my feelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.
    A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them, so technically it would be the right thing to ask the opinion of others when making a moral decision.

    Some cultures viewed cannibalism or human sacrifice as normal and acceptible behaviour, what's right and wrong is totally dependent on the views of others.

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    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameguy View Post
    A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them ...
    ... what's right and wrong is totally dependent on the views of others.
    I roundly reject this notion, but that is a whole other thread! I really don't want to get into debating if Hitler's Holocaust was right just based off of his views.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by recorderdude View Post
    I personally strongly support the creation and sale of repro labels/carts that are clearly visible as repro labels/carts. Be it a mark, differently-colored case or cartridge or just a visible indication that it's not an original of any form.

    However, I cannot support reproductions made to look EXACTLY like the originals. It's more or less that it could fall into the wrong hands, not that I think the actual creator would do anything bad with it. So yeah, IMO, if you make an exact repro, it's yours, but it's immoral it if you don't note it's a repro and, even if you do, it's not necessarily a good idea.
    See, and the repro makers that sell 300+ repros a month are the ones that do their games looking like originals, and the ones that invest on shells that similar but different, etc, get 5-10 carts sold a month, Because "they are not exactly as the originals!"

    Customers have some fault in there too.

    Reproduction labels of imports, unreleased, protos, and hacks are Ok if they are printed without a repro mark, but US release MUST have a "reproduction label" print somewhere to mark it.
    Last edited by Pikointeractive; 05-03-2013 at 03:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flam View Post
    It was a joke. I don't feel the least bit guilty.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

  11. #31
    Kirby (Level 13) Buyatari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flam View Post
    I roundly reject this notion, but that is a whole other thread! I really don't want to get into debating if Hitler's Holocaust was right just based off of his views.
    It would be nice to think that of humanity but history shows us that what he is saying is true. People are a sheepish lot who pretty much do whatever the other guy is doing.

    Stalin put more people to death than Hitler. America killed off most of the Native Americans and took what land there was to take. We only stopped when we reached the other Ocean! Had Germany won the war and taken over the planet the way that we see those events would be different than it is today. As they say the victor writes the history books.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

    With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


    Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

    I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.
    There will always be those who restore things for their personal use.

    There will always be those who restore as a service for those who don't have the means, those people will typically aim to profit for their time and effort.

    There will always be those who seek to deceive with fraudulent, counterfeit goods.

    Plenty of grey areas and movement in this hobby for people to do any and all degrees of the above.

    Of course I frown on those that intend to be deceitful in their efforts and prey on others, and I have no right to judge somebody who does something for their own personal use.

    So then, the real question is - do I care about people who make reproductions and sell them?

    Even dialing the discussion down to JUST that specifically there's a whole subset of grey areas to examine.

    • Are they producing games that were not ever comercially available (hacks, homebrews, roms of incomplete and/or cancelled games)?
    • Are any of the above games currently available via any commercial avenues (Virtual Console, Steam, GOG, etc.)?
    • Are they selling homebrew versions that were coded from the ground up by themselves BUT are for games that were created by other people (Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Tetris, etc.)?
    • Are they re-producing games with methods/materials that would not feasibly be available to a novice/layman (mold-injected plastics, burned eproms, etc.)?



    In most cases I'm fine with money being exchanged for the parts, labor and craft. If the product is aesthetically identical (or superior) to what would have been commercially available - there's certainly an excuse to ask for money in return for services rendered.

    As far as the software itself, if it's a game that's currently available elsewhere (VC type release, classic collection on alternate modern platform, etc.) I don't see much of a reason to pay an extravagant price for a repro when you can contribute financially via legitimate avenues to the rights owners, but even then, there are areas where I would personally make exceptions (things like Tetris on 2600 or Super Mario Bros. on Genesis are unique oddities in their own right).

    I totally understand that there's a lot to wrestle with ethically and morally with all of it. In most cases I'm fine with what the classic game community does with homebrews and repros. I've never seen any truly great offenses intended to cause financial harm to rights owners, in fact, in most cases I see no reason why most rights holders don't simply release their back-catalogs INCLUDING unreleased or previously region-restricted software on whatever the current gen platforms are.

    So, as long as people aren't being explicitly shady, slimy exploitative fucks about what they're doing I'm fine with it all, and when something like the real Bio Force Ape comes along, I'm more than happy to have an opportunity to own it on an authentic NES cartridge.

    But, that's just me. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.
    "And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"


  13. #33
    Peach (Level 3) Flam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buyatari View Post
    It would be nice to think that of humanity but history shows us that what he is saying is true. People are a sheepish lot who pretty much do whatever the other guy is doing.

    Stalin put more people to death than Hitler. America killed off most of the Native Americans and took what land there was to take. We only stopped when we reached the other Ocean! Had Germany won the war and taken over the planet the way that we see those events would be different than it is today. As they say the victor writes the history books.
    well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flam View Post
    well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.
    Come on people.

    "And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"


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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    Buyatari Godwin'd the topic rather than respond directly any further.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
    This is a classic gaming site and the most active thread is a load of people wanking off to my little pony.

  16. #36
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    I kinda feel like replacing labels would be a total waste of time, the label would have to be pretty destroyed for it to be worthwhile. You would have to take off the old label then be able to make a 100% perfect copy. Anything short would not fool anyone. Lets face it, you sell something on ebay and the buyer can pretty much make up any reason to return it. You try and sell a 100+$ snes cart with a imperfect repro label without mentioning it, the buyer would know and probably be pissed.

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    It's alt less difficult than you'd think to pull off a 99% perfect label.

    Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggyx View Post
    Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.
    There was someone on here offering Stadium Events repros awhile back, complete in repro boxes with manuals. The only difference was the cart label was glossy, something anyone can replace with a more original looking one. He stopped offering it only because people complained about it.

    Plus a few months ago someone listed a "complete" copy of Super Mario All-Stars+Super Mario World on ebay, in reality it was a legit cart and manual put in a repro box. The thing sold for over $200 in open auction, yet you can buy repro boxes new for $15 directly from the maker.

    This type of stuff will pose a problem eventually if people put up with it, imagine people making repro boxes for Flintstones 2 or Little Samson. If the carts are still real who can really tell about the boxes unless you can compare a few directly in person? None of these would be advertised as repros by sellers, just "found this old game by chance, don't know anything about it and selling as is". Good luck getting your money back if you find one thing not correct about it.

  19. #39
    Kirby (Level 13) Buyatari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flam View Post
    well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.
    Hitler is always a bad example to use for anything.

    Try this one.

    If you are of age in this country then sex with an individual under 18 years of age is rape and considered wrong. Who picked this number 18 and why I have no idea but most everyone across the board now makes that black and white distinction of right and wrong before and after this number. A number had to be picked but if a less mature 19 year old enages in sex that would considered ok by everyone except perhaps her father. Ok in the case of a 19 year old and not ok in the case of a 17 year old only because the law says so. This particular 19 year old may be less mature and need this protection more than the average 17 year old but no one thinks that out.

    So a law is placed and almost universally the people of this country adopt it into their moral compass of right and wrong.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Buyatari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    Buyatari Godwin'd the topic rather than respond directly any further.
    There isn't much more to say about this one.

    Gamers who don't care about collecting are the biggest supporters of identical copies and could care less..... err scratch that...they WOULD LOVE to see the hobby suffer from an influx of copies. It will not be a dream come true for them and instead it will backfire and create a bigger need for companies like VGA to certify even rare loose games.

    Collectors know copies will happen but they don't want to provide aid to those who would rip off other collectors. To them it is really simple. You don't piss in your own pool.

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