Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

[Tanooki]

I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.

[skaar]

I'm still shocked how much people care about pieces of wood, glass, metal and plastic and how willing they are to spew rage and indignation onto the internet.

Enjoy the nostalgia, pass on your happiness to others and just generally have a good time. Or talk to someone about it, because damn.

Peace, love, flowers and Insert Coin.

[Xander]

I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

TL;DR: Slippery slope.

[Tanooki]

I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

TL;DR: Slippery slope.

Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.

The idea to me is that it's not the job of a select group of people to smear and attack someone seeking repairs and/or help. That's why that saying 'buyer beware' is out there a you need to think for yourself, not just attack anyone attempting to work on their own stuff they rightfully own as if their property is socialist community property. I know the fear is real, but telling people what to do with their own goods I find far more offensive.

[Gameguy]

Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.

There's a bit of a difference between pure restoration and reproduction parts. Nobody really cares about replacing capacitors or save batteries in carts, it's expected that those parts eventually wear out and need replacements. It's when you start using reproduction parts to replace things that shouldn't ever need to be replaced that people get upset. Gluing down a peeling label isn't that big of a problem, outright replacing a label might be.

As for old books, if you have a rare book missing the dust jacket and you buy a reproduction to replace it, these often are marked as a reproduction somewhere on it. Usually it's marked on the inside flap, not on the outside of the jacket. It's one of the differences between restoration work and reproduction that people care about. Restoring pages or binding isn't replacing any of the existing materials, people care about the actual paper pages and not the glue that holds them together.

Plus with restoration work with the items you described, they're done by professionals. They're not just done by anyone at their own home which can vary in quality and has no documentation available. Usually the restoration viewed positively is anything that prevents further degradation of the item being restored, such as what you described with books. Restoration for purely cosmetic reasons could be viewed either way depending on the collector. It's the same with autographs, most people view autographed books as being more valuable while others see them as defaced. I know with bicycle collectors people prefer old bicycles being fully original down to the original tires if possible, they just get restored if they're in really bad condition to preserve them.

Personally I'm against labels being replaced as it doesn't help prevent degradation of the cartridge, it's not like the cartridge would further wear out if the damaged label stays in place. To me it just makes it harder later on to find legit copies in excellent shape, most people would be buying games over the internet rather than inspecting them in person like with cars. Just going by some photos won't be enough to see the difference.

[Rickstilwell1]

Personally I just figure if I run into a counterfeit items I can get a refund from whoever sells them to me. If you can't tell a fake from real yourself, you wouldn't be as hardcore of a collector you say you are.

[skaar]

I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit. (since that seems to be where this discussion is going)

Apparently this is acceptable to the majority of people despite being outright piracy.

Flashcarts and the like I have no issue with because while they can be used as tools for piracy, the usage of the device is up to the purchaser. When you've burned a downloaded/stolen (and let's face it the majority of these proto/unreleased games were outright stolen from gaming magazines and such) and sold it for profit you are no different than the guy selling burned copies of The Avengers on the street. You just get to hide behind nostalgia to excuse your crimes.

To the original point of the thread (unless I've missed it completely) when you own your own cabinet you can do whatever the hell you want to it - it's yours. Pee on it, paint it neon, turn it into a fish tank. If it's a game I would have liked to own myself at some point I'm sad to see it defaced/damaged, but c'est la vie.

[Tanooki]

Well said rick, exactly why I said due diligence.

Skaar I'm not going to lie I do have Starfox 2, but that said I agree with you entirely too, especially on hacks and in particular translation hacks. Translations just bug me because you're effectively stealing not just the original game, but also someone elses 100s of hours of man hours put into say doing FF5 or Sailor Moon Another Story for SFC into english and I'm sure every one of those compensates the translator amateur too for their time. The real fact is though all reproductions are warez, cut and dry warez. The fact multiple sites, even this one and NA seem to not care and gloss over it entirely but heaven forbid linking up a ROM from off site. It's fine to peddle warez in a nice wrapper that works on real hardware, but dare link up a rom and your ass is grass which is hypocritical to me entirely but that is an entirely different discussion than replacing labels on a cart.


Here's a thought to advance the whole restoration thing. What if I knew a site that sold sticker paper in bulk that if you get the right style and find the right printer to make a copy label it in theory could come off very close in quality to a non-laminate glossy paper sticker midlife SNES and later stuff through N64 and beyond have used. Would that start a shit storm or be appreciated?

[skaar]

I'd be quite happy if someone started selling printed labels of games so I could restore my carts. Provided it charged enough to make a reasonable profit over operating costs, this would be a valuable service to the retrogaming community who just wants their games to look nice.

NA is paranoid about market prices and keeping values high to justify the money they've poured into the hobby.

[Polygon]

Since I'm not collecting games as an investment, I love the idea of replacement parts. Especially reproduction labels, boxes, and manuals. I like having complete games as it appeals to might slightly OCD side. I don't give a crap if they're original or not. I just like to have them and in really nice condition. The prices these days for complete games, especially for Nintendo systems, is out of hand. I can understand the concern of these reproduction parts finding their way into the market and people being sold these items as original, and paying a pretty penny for them, thinking so. This is nothing new, it happens in ALL collectors markets. Hell, it's already happening in gaming. I see it all the time on eBay with manuals and cover art.

Regardless, I welcome it. I could complete all my games with nice boxes and manuals and that would make me very happy. I won't pay the high price as if they were original, but I'm happy to pay for them for the right price.

[Flam]

I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit.

So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused.

[skaar]

So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused.

You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.

There will always be those who restore things for their personal use.

There will always be those who restore as a service for those who don't have the means, those people will typically aim to profit for their time and effort.

There will always be those who seek to deceive with fraudulent, counterfeit goods.

Plenty of grey areas and movement in this hobby for people to do any and all degrees of the above.

Of course I frown on those that intend to be deceitful in their efforts and prey on others, and I have no right to judge somebody who does something for their own personal use.

So then, the real question is - do I care about people who make reproductions and sell them?

Even dialing the discussion down to JUST that specifically there's a whole subset of grey areas to examine.

• Are they producing games that were not ever comercially available (hacks, homebrews, roms of incomplete and/or cancelled games)?
• Are any of the above games currently available via any commercial avenues (Virtual Console, Steam, GOG, etc.)?
• Are they selling homebrew versions that were coded from the ground up by themselves BUT are for games that were created by other people (Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Tetris, etc.)?
• Are they re-producing games with methods/materials that would not feasibly be available to a novice/layman (mold-injected plastics, burned eproms, etc.)?

In most cases I'm fine with money being exchanged for the parts, labor and craft. If the product is aesthetically identical (or superior) to what would have been commercially available - there's certainly an excuse to ask for money in return for services rendered.

As far as the software itself, if it's a game that's currently available elsewhere (VC type release, classic collection on alternate modern platform, etc.) I don't see much of a reason to pay an extravagant price for a repro when you can contribute financially via legitimate avenues to the rights owners, but even then, there are areas where I would personally make exceptions (things like Tetris on 2600 or Super Mario Bros. on Genesis are unique oddities in their own right).

I totally understand that there's a lot to wrestle with ethically and morally with all of it. In most cases I'm fine with what the classic game community does with homebrews and repros. I've never seen any truly great offenses intended to cause financial harm to rights owners, in fact, in most cases I see no reason why most rights holders don't simply release their back-catalogs INCLUDING unreleased or previously region-restricted software on whatever the current gen platforms are.

So, as long as people aren't being explicitly shady, slimy exploitative fucks about what they're doing I'm fine with it all, and when something like the real Bio Force Ape comes along, I'm more than happy to have an opportunity to own it on an authentic NES cartridge.

But, that's just me. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.