Retro-Bit strike back !!! Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Adapter !!!

[Leo_A]

Thanks

It's for the best I suppose since I was only interested in it for the novelty value. With the Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player connected to my Trinitron and the Retron 5 coming for my HDTV one of these days, there was no practical need for this adapter.

But it still would've been neat playing GBA games via my Super Nintendo.

RetroBit is a maker of hardware. They are not going to create an SNES program complete with a GBA bios and UI like the Super GameBoy or GameBoy Player. If that's what you're hoping for, you need a reality check.

I hardly think it's outlandish like you're portraying. They need to program a bios anyways since they just can't utilize any Nintendo code since it's all protected by copyrights, it's meant to plug into a Super Nintendo cartridge port be it a clone or the real deal, and it's actual clone hardware contained inside just like how the Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player had the actual hardware inside.

Taking it one step forward beyond just receiving power in order for it to be seamless just makes sense to tap into the Super Nintendo hardware to route the AV out and interact with the controller plugged into port 1. They don't even need things like borders or even a UI. So it was a very reasonable question even though I was obviously skeptical that it would work out that way.

[Jorpho]

So the other questions were, does it play GB and GBC carts as well?

Is GBA clone-hardware especially commonplace in general these days? Do the clones tend to be accurate? Do they work with flash carts? How about the Gamecube link cable?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I hardly think it's outlandish like you're portraying. They need to program a bios anyways since they just can't utilize any Nintendo code since it's all protected by
copyrights

No, this is not correct. What they are doing with the GBA Adapter is reverse engineering the GameBoy Advance hardware with a custom video amplifier to a tv instead of a LCD. There have been Chinese clones that do this for several years now. They aren't generating a bios from scratch.

it's meant to plug into a Super Nintendo cartridge port be it a clone or the real deal, and it's actual clone hardware contained inside just like how the Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player had the actual hardware inside.

This would be exactly correct EXCEPT that the fact that the Super GameBoy and GameBoy Player are not dummy interfaces for the GameBoy line. They have software specifically written for them to behave as an SNES and GameCube game titles. The reason for this is to control the borders, configure controls, change colors, etc. Again, as far as the consoles are concerned, the Super GameBoy and GameBoy Player are GAME software, not platforms in which to run foreign games.

Taking it one step forward beyond just receiving power in order for it to be seamless just makes sense to tap into the Super Nintendo hardware to route the AV out and interact with the controller plugged into port 1. They don't even need things like borders or even a UI. So it was a very reasonable question even though I was obviously skeptical that it would work out that way.

I acknowledge that your conclusion is likely reached without any programming knowledge, but as a programmer, I can tell you what you just said is impossible. You can't just "route" the AV through the SNES' video output jack without involving the PPU, which of course receives its instructional information from the CPU, which means it would need to have instructional set from the cartridge to do so.

SNES games were written in low level 65C816 assembly, a language so prone to errors it was abandoned in the mid 90s and isn't taught in programming classes anymore. There also aren't any C or C++ compilers for the highly custom 5A22 cpu Nintendo choose for the SNES.

This effectively means for RetroBit to do what you're suggesting they would need to write extremely difficult code in an essentially dead language, at no financial benefit to them. In fact, most of the code would need to be executed directly from the cartridge ROM, not copied to RAM, which would further drive up the cost of the device, resulting in less profits. Do you see the flaw in your thinking?

Sure, I agree that it would be great if RetroBit could someone justify the costs and difficulties and "route" the GBA's video output directly to the multi-video out port for potentially anything up to 240p via RGB, but that's fantasy talking.

does it play GB and GBC carts as well?

I can't confirm until my review copy arrives, but I'm almost certain it will not. Z80 clones are no longer common, making this a non-economical choice to include given the small percentage of end users who would truly care about this to begin with.

Not to mention this wouldn't be the first time GB/GBC support was dropped from the GameBoy line - Datel's GBA Adapter for GameCube did not support it, the official Nintendo produced GameBoy Micro did not support it, and the DS line didn't either. Then when you look at other GBA clones out there, none of them support GB/GBC either. There's a slim chance this one could break the mold, but don't get your hopes up.

Is GBA clone-hardware especially commonplace in general these days? Do the clones tend to be accurate? Do they work with flash carts? How about the Gamecube link cable?

They aren't as common as Famiclones, but yes, there are a fair number of GBA clones. Accuracy varies, but generally speaking they are 1:1 with the real hardware given how straightforward the GameBoy Advance hardware was. Flashcarts aren't a usual concern as most GBA clones do not have a cartridge port, but instead play GBA games from a micro SD card. There are a few with real GBA cart slots, but they're in the minority.

As for the GBA-GC link connection, to my knowledge there aren't any GBA clones that even have the port. It would be considered a useless option and removed to reduce costs.

[Leo_A]

No, this is not correct. What they are doing with the GBA Adapter is reverse engineering the GameBoy Advance hardware with a custom video amplifier to a tv instead of a LCD. There have been Chinese clones that do this for several years now. They aren't generating a bios from scratch.

Then what are we talking about? A bios just for the SuperNes component in order for it to work in that way?

I thought the GBA itself had a bios and that's what I'm talking about with what you quoted. If that's the case they have to create something proprietary that works similarly since Nintendo isn't just allowing these guys to use copyrighted software and you're the one letting your ignorance show through if you think they're just "borrowing" copyrighted Nintendo code to get this out the door. And if they're doing some programming, it's hardly the idiotic leap you've portrayed it to be to inquire if they've gone all the way with this and its interaction with the Super Nintendo.

Over optimistic at best is what I would say you could call my question since it's not like I'm expecting them to devote programming resources of the level needed to program a game like Link to the Past over a decade after the last commercial work on this platform or the few around here that genuinely thought Capcom was pulling NES development systems out to create Mega Man 9 a few years ago.

This would be exactly correct EXCEPT that the fact that the Super GameBoy and GameBoy Player are not dummy interfaces for the GameBoy line. They have software specifically written for them to behave as an SNES and GameCube game titles. The reason for this is to control the borders, configure controls, change colors, etc. Again, as far as the consoles are concerned, the Super GameBoy and GameBoy Player are GAME software, not platforms in which to run foreign games.

I didn't say otherwise.

It still doesn't change the fact that this is meant to interface with a Super Nintendo or equivalent clone and that what runs GBA code is self contained in the unit. That's what I said with what you quoted with this portion of your reply. Inquiring if it went one additional step past just grabbing its power was hardly naive especially with the amount of skepticism that I expressed.

I was very sure it didn't work that way. I was inquiring to confirm it just for perhaps the 1% chance that they went all in on this.

I acknowledge that your conclusion is likely reached without any programming knowledge, but as a programmer, I can tell you what you just said is impossible. You can't just "route" the AV through the SNES' video output jack without involving the PPU, which of course receives its instructional information from the CPU, which means it would need to have instructional set from the cartridge to do so.

I didn't say otherwise. It was you that said I did.

All I said was they didn't need fancy borders or a user interface for such a thing and they don't. They don't need a menu that provides filter options, border options, screen size options, button configuration options, and so on. So if you're going to school me, I wish you'd at least stick to what I actually wrote. I'm not a programmer and perhaps I was a bit naive to think there was even a hint of a chance of this and I'm fine with you explaining why that was unrealistic even if your attitude crept in at points, but at least don't put words in my mouth while you do it since I'm well aware that what I asked requires some code running on the SuperNes side to handle the video output and control inputs.

This effectively means for RetroBit to do what you're suggesting they would need to write extremely difficult code in an essentially dead language, at no financial benefit to them. In fact, most of the code would need to be executed directly from the cartridge ROM, not copied to RAM, which would further drive up the cost of the device, resulting in less profits. Do you see the flaw in your thinking?

Nope

I'm sure they could wrangle programming what probably is a simple enough of a program for the SuperNes hardware. If they're reverse engineering the GBA bios to create a non infringing counterpart, I'm sure they could manage to program a basic program that runs on the SuperNes side. They could even take a look into the Super Game Boy code too and probably get a good idea of what they'd have to do while they're reverse engineering a GBA bios.

And I bet the rom chip and extra hardware that would go along with it probably are reasonably competitive with the cost of installing controller ports and the AV circuitry and jacks into this adapter. Nintendo did it that way for a reason 20 years ago. So I'll buy it being technically challenging that discouraged them from going that route. But I won't buy that it was obviously too expensive where the hardware was concerned.

[Gatucaman]

Unless it has 100% compatibility with every game, what is the point to owning any of these 3rd party retro systems?
I just don't see why any are even needed. You can easily get a nes for 50$, snes for 50$, and genesis for 15$, so why would you spend almost that for one 3rd party system that is probably made of really cheap plastic and wont play every game.
I also think alot of the fun of playing older games is using original hardware.

Why havent we seen a 3rd party system that plays turbo grafx cards and cds? That would be something alot of people could use.

Maybe no one wants to pay $50 for an used NES or SNES, specially a SNES with a broken AC plug jack, in fact no one should :P.

[wiggyx]

Why havent we seen a 3rd party system that plays turbo grafx cards and cds? That would be something alot of people could use.

Because there are far fewer fans of the TG-16 stuff than there are people who want NES/SNES/Genny compatibility.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Unless the GBA adapter is totally different from the Genesis and NES adapters RetroBit currently has on the market, the GBA adapter only interfaces wight he SNES cartridge port to draw power and route controls to the player 1 controller port. The SNES motherboard is otherwise not involved.

The GBA has a boot bios, which is either circumvented or copied. How they Retrobit is doing GBA compatibility precisely is unknown until I get a look at it, but it is clear they are doing something. The issue of legality may not be so black and white, given that Datel produced a GBA Adapter for the GameCube that ran GBA games and directly completed against the GameBoy Player, and it did so using emulation.

I agree, RetroBit doesn't need to have a UI that has any of the features of the Super GameBoy or GameBoy Player. It doesn't matter how basic the UI is as long as it routes the signals through the internal multi video out port. What I am saying is that they won't do this because there's no benefit to them for doing so, when they could simply have its own port. It's cost saving, and efficient. It is not wholly desirable for retro gamers, but having no UI at all is easier and cheaper to do than even a very basic one.

Again, my point is that RetroBit could create a UI for the GBA adapter for the SNES, but they have no reason to when their previous Genesis and NES adapter solution does the same job for less.

It is also a very strong possibility the reverse engineered GBA boot bios or boot bios countermeasure is directly taken from an existing GBA clone, not something RetroBit developed themselves.

The GBA adapter will not have its own controller port. It will use the SNES controller port. The controller input can be controlled via cartridge pins without involving the SNES motherboard, unlike the PPU. The motherboard remains dormant, only the controller port is utilized like what happens if you plug a USB device to charge into a console that's off.

Again, the reason they are doing this is to make it as simplistic as possible to keep costs as low as possible. They could do a UI, they could do a lot more, but their market wouldn't be any larger if they did, and all they'd have on their hands is a more expensive clone to produce and which would then mean passing that cost onto the consumer.

[Leo_A]

Thanks for the polite and informative response.

The issue of legality may not be so black and white

If they've copied Nintendo code, it's definitely black & white. GBA related patents possibly have expired now, but copyrights which software falls into is definitely still active. So if that's what they've done for the GBA bios, they must just be hoping it goes by unnoticed.

[MarioMania]

Another thing playing NES, SNES, Genesis Emu's on a HDTV, input lag

About the GBA Adapter - Is there a Option to Screen Size ala Game Boy Player?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Thanks for the polite and informative response.

If they've copied Nintendo code, it's definitely black & white. GBA related patents possibly have expired now, but copyrights which software falls into is definitely still active. So if that's what they've done for the GBA bios, they must just be hoping it goes by unnoticed.

My gut feeling is the method of running GBA games is through circumvention of the required bios, not directly copying it. But you're right, assuming they are directly copying it, they're hoping Nintendo won't notice/care.

Another thing playing NES, SNES, Genesis Emu's on a HDTV, input lag

About the GBA Adapter - Is there a Option to Screen Size ala Game Boy Player?

No no, you're confused. Although this is directly competing against the RetoN5, it is not emulation based, nor will it have HDTV support. Composite and S-Video here for SD tvs. Also input lag is created by individual HDTVs; not consoles. If you're using an HDTV that has particularly awful input lag, then switch to an HDTV that does not.

As for the GBA adapter, it isn't out yet. End of the month. As was being discussed, it will almost certainly lack a UI, so I suspect the screen resolution will be fixed unlike the GB Player. Don't worry though - once it's out RetroBit are sending me one for review so I'll go into depth about all that you need to know regarding this.

[Jorpho]

Z80 clones are no longer common, making this a non-economical choice to include given the small percentage of end users who would truly care about this to begin with.

I thought the Z80 was left out of the DS and the Micro primarily due to the physical space it would take up. Aren't Z80s still being produced?

[BlastProcessing402]

Why would anyone want to have HDMI on a classic console? It's not like it's going to do anything for the visuals of the games

It damn sure will look better on a modern TV than using the composite input will, even if it doesn't upscale or anything. Composite inputs on modern TV's are awful.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Retro-Bit sent me the Super Retro Adapter today. Full review will be forthcoming.

If anyone has any specific questions, please ask, so I can write up an FAQ.

The more questions the better, as I want to be through.

[Metalwario64]

All I want to know is if it plays GB/C games or not. I looked through the thread and only saw speculation, so a confirmed yes or no would be nice.