Exposing VGA (Video Game Grading Authority)

[JakeM]

find a less expensive hobby or a better way of earning a living so you can afford the ever increasing prices

I just wanted to quote what you said there, and not really comment on that.

Comics and sports cards have already been brought up, and its more than likely that video games are going down the same route. Its only going to continue as more and more people get into collecting just to collect, and not to play the games as well. This type of collecting does take the fun out of these games by putting them into these slabs, theyre not toys anymore, theyre collectibles. I took my younger brother to Toy Story 2, and that was a good movie that applies to this very well.

And if bb_hood had watched the video he would have seen the Namco "misprint" that was graded. Also should see the sealed games that are being opened and slabbed to show the contents are in them. Yeah, think about that.

[Graham Mitchell]

Fact check: http://www.vggrader.com/about_whatwegrade.aspx

"Qualified Grading Scale (items are accompanied by documentation) for opened package with new contents video games, consoles and accessories from all years "

Right, and in Dangerboy's video he explains that the Namco Museum "misprint" was opened, and somebody could have easily swapped the manual out.

Look, I'm not trying to offend anybody, and I'm sorry if any of my comments were hurtful. I've had a shitty week as my house was burglarlized and over $10K worth of stuff was stolen (thankfully the only video game stuff they took was common and replaceable except for a modded SNES.) As such my manners are not what they should be today, and I apologize. I have plenty of games that I don't intend to play so my venom at the whole thing doesn't make any sense, and is a product of personal crap.

The point of my posting really was that my ONLY concern about VGA grading was taking working games out of comission. And though I do pretty well for myself, there are some games out there that my friends will never afford, and that's unfortunate. While this practice may not be directly correlated with rising prices, as some of you have pointed out, it probably isn't helping with that.

[badinsults]

I still don't understand the point of people getting their games encased in those things. Do people really get enjoyment out of LOOKING at a game's packaging, rather than PLAYING the games inside? Are they trying to impress people and show them off? To whom? I would laugh my ass off if someone showed me a game in one of those things in person. These aren't baseball cards or comic books. I find it hilarious...

I think there is little evidence that people who use VGA are doing it for aethetics. This is about money, plain and simple. The perception is if something is "graded", that it is somehow more authentic, and therefore worth far more. The only problem with that mentality is that there are actually very few games, even now, that command the $100+ that would be required to justify the cost of grading the game (as pointed out by Dangerboy).

I don't know why I care about the VGA thing, since I haven't collected video games in years. I guess I do care about proper preservation, and I was never convinced that leaving games sealed amounted to preservation. The fact that they encased an undumped prototype and the gold NWC without even covering the EPROM windows really does show that the people running this outfit don't know shit about preservation.

[bb_hood]

I just wanted to quote what you said there, and not really comment on that.

Comics and sports cards have already been brought up, and its more than likely that video games are going down the same route. Its only going to continue as more and more people get into collecting just to collect, and not to play the games as well. This type of collecting does take the fun out of these games by putting them into these slabs, theyre not toys anymore, theyre collectibles. I took my younger brother to Toy Story 2, and that was a good movie that applies to this very well.

And if bb_hood had watched the video he would have seen the Namco "misprint" that was graded. Also should see the sealed games that are being opened and slabbed to show the contents are in them. Yeah, think about that.

I did watch the video, and I think the point is they are not experts at what they grade.
If you think this type of collecting takes the fun out, then dont do it. Getting upset over what other people do with inanimate objects is pointless. Just because someone has nostagic feelings toward a copy of Guardian Heroes or any other expensive game does not give them exclusive rights to owning a copy or being able to buy a copy for 5$. Seriously, these are just toys. If you want them and cant afford them get a job.

Right, and in Dangerboy's video he explains that the Namco Museum "misprint" was opened, and somebody could have easily swapped the manual out.

Look, I'm not trying to offend anybody, and I'm sorry if any of my comments were hurtful. I've had a shitty week as my house was burglarlized and over $10K worth of stuff was stolen (thankfully the only video game stuff they took was common and replaceable except for a modded SNES.) As such my manners are not what they should be today, and I apologize. I have plenty of games that I don't intend to play so my venom at the whole thing doesn't make any sense, and is a product of personal crap.

The point of my posting really was that my ONLY concern about VGA grading was taking working games out of comission. And though I do pretty well for myself, there are some games out there that my friends will never afford, and that's unfortunate. While this practice may not be directly correlated with rising prices, as some of you have pointed out, it probably isn't helping with that.

I dont think anyone is offended, I sure am not. I am sorry your house was burglarized, that is terrible.
I just disagree when people say they are taking games out of commision, I mean the cases CAN be opened. If someone is gonna pay to get it slabbed they probably wouldnt open it to play it anyway. If someone has no intention on selling said game encasing it in plastic wont make any difference.

[o.pwuaioc]

I mean, dont understand the butt hurt over VGA. They have a service that peopel are obviously willing to pay for. Then people are obviously willing to pay the high prices for good. VGA may not be 'experts' but then who is? Who defines who the experts are? Mayber they are experts because obviously they are doing it and making money of it. Why don't some of you start a competing company doing something similar if you think you are better than they are? You can even do it for free and I suspect you'd get bored quickly and start charging and then be hooked on monies.

This is quite honestly the dumbest thing I've seen on this forum. I dare you to take this to any other field and see how it holds up. "So what if charlatan X isn't a real doctor. Who defines who real doctors are? Mayber they are experts because obviously they are doing it and making money of it."

Totally legit.

[wiggyx]

I did watch the video, and I think the point is they are not experts at what they grade.
If you think this type of collecting takes the fun out, then dont do it. Getting upset over what other people do with inanimate objects is pointless. Just because someone has nostagic feelings toward a copy of Guardian Heroes or any other expensive game does not give them exclusive rights to owning a copy or being able to buy a copy for 5$. Seriously, these are just toys. If you want them and cant afford them get a job.



I dont think anyone is offended, I sure am not. I am sorry your house was burglarized, that is terrible.
I just disagree when people say they are taking games out of commision, I mean the cases CAN be opened. If someone is gonna pay to get it slabbed they probably wouldnt open it to play it anyway. If someone has no intention on selling said game encasing it in plastic wont make any difference.

Really? Seriously, that makes you sound about 12 years old.

[sloan]

I think there is little evidence that people who use VGA are doing it for aethetics. This is about money, plain and simple.

The real heart of the matter, and it serves to do nothing but artificially drive prices upward.

I mean, dont understand the butt hurt over VGA. They have a service that peopel are obviously willing to pay for.

Faulty logic. Using that line of reasoning, it could be justified that just about anything that people are willing to pay for is somehow legitimate and ethical. There is demand for illicit narcotics, but what about the people hurt in the addictions and crime associated?

Basically, if a process exists for nothing more than inflating prices on a given category of consumer goods, then that process is nefarious in nature. VGA grading is nothing more than a means of gaining 'return on investment' for speculators who are ruining the market (and fun factor) for so many others.

[JakeM]

Graham Mitchell, I am very sorry to hear youve been robbed.

Getting upset over what other people do with inanimate objects is pointless. Just because someone has nostagic feelings toward a copy of Guardian Heroes or any other expensive game does not give them exclusive rights to owning a copy or being able to buy a copy for 5$.

I wont make a sex toy joke hahahaha. But you have to say that were all getting shafted by $130 collector grade copies on ebay for that game. Someone up there was talking about classic cars.....comparing collecting classic video games with classic cars, I really didnt think Id read here. I just never thought when I was a kid that these games would be so inflated in price.

If you think this type of collecting takes the fun out, then dont do it. Seriously, these are just toys. If you want them and cant afford them get a job.

Interesting how you and Bojay went directly to me not having a good enough job as reasons for me being pissed about higher video game prices. I dont have a job right now, and maybe not having disposable income has made me more wise than others on what I spend my money on. Ill buy a classic game, but not one I cant play that has a 95 rating inside a plastic case.

[sloan]

I posted the video on NA, but Im not going to go back there.

I went over there to see what kind of reactions it was getting, but I did not see the thread anywhere. You sure you posted it at NA?

[JakeM]

I went over there to see what kind of reactions it was getting, but I did not see the thread anywhere. You sure you posted it at NA?

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/mes...hreadid=104142

so then i followed that guys link to the video thread and posted it and then got this only reply. i was too obviously trying to stir shit with the vga lovers. theyre not biting. i joined just to post that. not effective at all. i just dont really have an interest in a forum only dedicated to one company.

Just to make it clearer, megaevilman first posted the video here: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=...

I don't get your urge to become a member without introducing yourself, and just posting this youtube video. What are you expecting, starting some major shit stirring around? Sorry dude, but your intervention is written TROLL all over it, and we're usually not interested in these kind of behaviours.

On a side note, while this guy is trying really hard to make a logical discourse to discredit completely VGA, his whole argumentation is incredibly flawed and one-sided. He uses the stupidiest examples to prove his points, and he's definitely out of the line to discuss sealed collecting. Really, there's no need to go on about this video cause it is almost totally meaningless.

This said, the guy is probably a nice dude and should join this forum.

[Bojay1997]

Graham Mitchell, I am very sorry to hear youve been robbed.



I wont make a sex toy joke hahahaha. But you have to say that were all getting shafted by $130 collector grade copies on ebay for that game. Someone up there was talking about classic cars.....comparing collecting classic video games with classic cars, I really didnt think Id read here. I just never thought when I was a kid that these games would be so inflated in price.



Interesting how you and Bojay went directly to me not having a good enough job as reasons for me being pissed about higher video game prices. I dont have a job right now, and maybe not having disposable income has made me more wise than others on what I spend my money on. Ill buy a classic game, but not one I cant play that has a 95 rating inside a plastic case.

Look, nobody who has posted in this thread as far as I know has any VGA games or has used VGA or ever will use VGA. That's the point you keep missing. Most collectors don't use VGA and don't buy VGA games and don't care about it. Similarly, most collectors don't buy or sell sealed games. That doesn't change the fact that older, great games are steadily increasing in price in line with supply and demand. I have no idea about your personal job or financial situation and frankly I don't care about it. The reality is that more and more people are buying and playing or buying and collecting older, good games and that has resulted in higher prices. You can either pay the higher prices or wait out the market or move on to something else. Bitching about some unrelated foolish thing like VGA isn't going to make the games you want any cheaper and it certainly isn't going to convince people who use VGA to stop using it.

[bb_hood]

Interesting how you and Bojay went directly to me not having a good enough job as reasons for me being pissed about higher video game prices. I dont have a job right now, and maybe not having disposable income has made me more wise than others on what I spend my money on. Ill buy a classic game, but not one I cant play that has a 95 rating inside a plastic case.

I dont know anything about your situation and my comment is not meant to be personal. Im unemployed as well.
I dont see the point in complaining about prices when it comes to used vintage games (especially the rare highly-sought after stuff). Ive never understand why some people have no qualms about spending 40-60$ on a new release xbox/ps3 title (which is readily available in most chain stores), but paying 90$-120$ for a sega saturn game that has been out of print for 14+ years that many people want is so unheard of.

There is always a cheaper option than buying a mint complete in box copy of whatever on ebay.

That's the point you keep missing. Most collectors don't use VGA and don't buy VGA games and don't care about it. Similarly, most collectors don't buy or sell sealed games. That doesn't change the fact that older, great games are steadily increasing in price in line with supply and demand. I have no idea about your personal job or financial situation and frankly I don't care about it. The reality is that more and more people are buying and playing or buying and collecting older, good games and that has resulted in higher prices. You can either pay the higher prices or wait out the market or move on to something else. Bitching about some unrelated foolish thing like VGA isn't going to make the games you want any cheaper and it certainly isn't going to convince people who use VGA to stop using it.

Exactly. The prices people ask for VGA rated games has nothing to do with used game values. Totally diff subject.
Arguing that other peoples' use of VGA's grading system is affecting you or me is just nonsense.

[JakeM]

I have no clue why you replied to me then. By having that tone when talking to me, I thought you took offense to me saying those people were high/drunk on nostalgia or something. I have no clue why youre talking to me if were both not buying VGA stuff.

Prices are going up in general, but they are going up more with "authenticating them" like in other collectors markets, cant you see that? Just like with toys, comic books, cars and antiques. Except these guys have proven themselves to be greedy idiots, and THATS why I have a problem with them. Theyre artificially increasing prices based on nothing, and the slabs are crap. Theyre making people jack up their prices for games they want to sell. I met a guy once who took pride in his game being a 85, and I told him I would have given him a 90 for half the price.

Stop going after someone because they have an opinion when you dont even have the opposite of it. I can say what I want about prices being unfair.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You know, where "perceived value" is concerned, tangential to the VGA issue, as a Nintendo Game & Watch collector eBay is a massive fucking double-edged sword.

On one side, it's great to have a global marketplace to hunt for items like G&W games that were more heavily marketed, manufactured, distributed and were much more successful in regions OTHER THAN North America.

On the other side you've got eBay sellers with virtual storefronts that allow them to have Buy it Now auctions that last 30 days and then automatically re-list.

Similar to the outrageously priced VGA game listings on eBay that will never sell, you've got Game & Watch sellers that list their items at two or three hundred percent of the current eBay fair market value (ending auction values of G&W games that actually sold) - let them sit endlessly at that price, and then, to novice sellers who search listing prices and not ending sold auction values - create this inflated "perceived" value.

You've got users with though processes like - "Hey, look at that Super Mario Bros. Game & Watch listed at $299.99! I've got one of those, I'll list it for the same price!" where the actual fair value on that game is closer to $60.

It's insane and it makes it all but impossible to find resonably priced BIN Game & Watch games and every auction winds up being a wild fight and final second sniping war.

I'm sure that this is a common problem with a lot of collectibles on ebay, but I've noted that it's a particular problem on eBay, sellers themselves causing inflated sense of value based on ridiculously over-priced listing.

[badinsults]

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/mes...hreadid=104142

so then i followed that guys link to the video thread and posted it and then got this only reply. i was too obviously trying to stir shit with the vga lovers. theyre not biting. i joined just to post that. not effective at all. i just dont really have an interest in a forum only dedicated to one company.

You are not going to get an effective debate on Nintendo Age on this issue. There are too many influential people there invested directly into VGA. Especially since everyone's "get games at any cost" mentality is really the driving force behind the recent increase in the price of games. VGA is just a subset of the whole deal there.

A well stated video but even IF VGA's grading services add no legitimate value or protection to a service, I don't think that the term "pyramid scheme" is accurate.

Yes, they're advertising a potential increased return on your game investment through giving it the VGA service, but VGA are not enlisting buyers of their services to go out and recruit others to have their games VGA graded for some type of tiered or incentivized pay-out.

So, clearly some questionable practices examined, but I don't think it's a "pyramid scheme" proper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Personally, I don't have any vested interest in VGA or VGA related activities since I'm not a sealed game collector and I don't ever have any valuable sealed games to sell.

Also, I wish the VGA would be more public/transparent about themselves and the services that they offer. Not sure if that would make anything better ... but being clandestine about stuff like this and professing to be an "authority" while simultaneously not participating in industry events or public things ... you're going to rustle up your critics pretty quickly.

Perhaps not a pyramid scheme, but their pricing scheme is dependent on the "value" of a game. A lot of these VGA auctions are done by people directly involved with the company. If they make it "appear" that a particular sealed game sold for a high value, then they can charge more for a game. Why is grading not a flat rate? And there is the fact they nickel-and-dime on everything. What some photographs of your game? $5-$12. Clean the game? $3. Summary of the grade? $5-$15. Why the hell would you have to pay extra for an explanation of the grading?


All things considered, if you look at the EBay history for VGA games, they don't really sell for more than their un-graded counterparts, aside from a few oddities ($10,000 for a VGA sealed copy of Super Mario 3D Land, a game still available in stores? Yeah right). Though we rant and rave about this, I don't think that VGA actually is affecting the prices of games. Obviously the service is limited by how fast they can pump out graded games, and their backlog of many weeks to months indicates that they are a pretty small-time operation.

[Bojay1997]

I have no clue why you replied to me then. By having that tone when talking to me, I thought you took offense to me saying those people were high/drunk on nostalgia or something. I have no clue why youre talking to me if were both not buying VGA stuff.

Prices are going up in general, but they are going up more with "authenticating them" like in other collectors markets, cant you see that? Just like with toys, comic books, cars and antiques. Except these guys have proven themselves to be greedy idiots, and THATS why I have a problem with them. Theyre artificially increasing prices based on nothing, and the slabs are crap. Theyre making people jack up their prices for games they want to sell. I met a guy once who took pride in his game being a 85, and I told him I would have given him a 90 for half the price.

Stop going after someone because they have an opinion when you dont even have the opposite of it. I can say what I want about prices being unfair.

I can't tell if you're mentally challenged or just really young and immature. There is no requirement that someone have an opposite opinion from someone else to raise valid points and arguments on this forum. If you aren't interested in people challenging your statements, don't post here. This isn't a black and white issue and there aren't just two possible points of view. Nobody has attacked you in any way. If you can't handle open and honest discussions, this isn't the forum for you.

[JakeM]

You are not going to get an effective debate on Nintendo Age on this issue. There are too many influential people there invested directly into VGA. Especially since everyone's "get games at any cost" mentality is really the driving force behind the recent increase in the price of games. VGA is just a subset of the whole deal there.

I wasnt trying to get a debate, just posted it after someone posted heads would implode if it showed up there. Ive heard and see some stupid things about the fanatics there.

[badinsults]

I wasnt trying to get a debate, just posted it after someone posted heads would implode if it showed up there. Ive heard and see some stupid things about the fanatics there.

Heads won't explode. It is like arguing with a brick wall, shouting as hard as you can to make it tumble down. It is not going to work. It is an exercise in futility, and whether you are posting such things just to troll, or out of legitimate concern about the hobby. You don't see me posting over there, for instance.

[JakeM]

Ok, i found that one comment i saw to be funny at least. I dont need to go back there again.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

...Perhaps not a pyramid scheme, but their pricing scheme is dependent on the "value" of a game. A lot of these VGA auctions are done by people directly involved with the company. If they make it "appear" that a particular sealed game sold for a high value, then they can charge more for a game. Why is grading not a flat rate? And there is the fact they nickel-and-dime on everything. What some photographs of your game? $5-$12. Clean the game? $3. Summary of the grade? $5-$15. Why the hell would you have to pay extra for an explanation of the grading?

Yeah, I don't discount that there are some unexplained and eyebrow-raising practices that the VGA does not appear to have any interest in publicly explaining or being transparent about, but Dangerboy threw the term "pyramid scheme" around more than a few times and I really don't think that that's a good fit for what may be occurring here.

A pyramid scheme is a very specific set of circumstances with a small group of people getting a larger group of people to pay them membership for access to services that will allegedly pay out if a greater number of individuals are recruited into the pay-up-the-pyramid for membership/access. It's pretty formulaic, THIS if anything is just an organization creating the perception of value based on an allegedly authoritative grade.