Was "Doki Doki Panic" Really Supposed to Have Been a Mario Game?

[CastlevaniaDude]

Kesuke Tanabe said in 2011 to Wired Magazine that DDP was originally a Mario type prototype. He was told to use Yume Kojo characters later on. After Nintendo of America cancelled Smb2, they had them modify DDP.

Can someone please provide scans?

We've got two people claiming definitive proof one way or the other, and neither has actual proof.

EDIT: Here is the link to said Wired article.

Unless I see otherwise, I'm going with this.

[TonyTheTiger]

Anyone who says that SMB2 'sucks' IS just a hipster moron who belongs to the 'Im too cool for school crowd'.
Yeah, everyone LOVED the game back when it was released. There is so much to love about SMB2.

Really? I have very clear memories of Mario 2 being a black sheep, at least it was by the time Mario 3 came out. It could just have been a quirky trend in my immediate surroundings (I was awfully young) but there was a distinct attitude that Mario 2 was "not good." In fact, that general opinion is what made me even more determined to actually play it since the smack talk just made me that much more curious. "It's Mario! How bad could it be?!" Answer: Different...but not bad at all. It's possible the opinion was founded on the fact that among the three games, Mario 2 was the only one that wasn't a two player affair. Among kids who liked to alternate between Mario and Luigi, that could have arguably been a deal breaker. A tad ironic since they'd have been screwed no matter which Mario 2 they got.

Actually, it seems like both Mario 2s have been vindicated by history. People seem to appreciate Mario 2 a hell of lot more today than they did back then and it expanded the Mario mythos while The Lost Levels rose in prominence due to its strange nature and somewhat mythical past, something that probably wouldn't have happened had it gotten a standard NES release. All things considered, I think everything worked out beautifully.

[CastlevaniaDude]

Really? I have very clear memories of Mario 2 being a black sheep, at least it was by the time Mario 3 came out. It could just have been a quirky trend in my immediate surroundings (I was awfully young) but there was a distinct attitude that Mario 2 was "not good." In fact, that general opinion is what made me even more determined to actually play it since the smack talk just made me that much more curious. "It's Mario! How bad could it be?!" Answer: Different...but not bad at all. It's possible the opinion was founded on the fact that among the three games, Mario 2 was the only one that wasn't a two player affair. Among kids who liked to alternate between Mario and Luigi, that could have arguably been a deal breaker. A tad ironic since they'd have been screwed no matter which Mario 2 they got.

Actually, it seems like both Mario 2s have been vindicated by history. People seem to appreciate Mario 2 a hell of lot more today than they did back then and it expanded the Mario mythos while The Lost Levels rose in prominence due to its strange nature and somewhat mythical past, something that probably wouldn't have happened had it gotten a standard NES release. All things considered, I think everything worked out beautifully.

It may depend on your age. I was about 5 when it came out and we got it. I remember knowing it was dramatically different, but still thinking it was awesome.

I also remember not thinking a lot of games were "bad", just "hard" or that I didn't understand how to play them.

Of course, today, I realize that some games just have broken controls, etc. and are "bad." Back then, I didn't understand the concept. I mean, c'mon, it had the Nintendo Seal of Quality.

[Parodius Duh!]

Clearly that Wired article states that the game was intended to be "Like Mario" and does not say at all it started off as a Mario game. Being similar is a big difference. Doki Doki/SMB2 started off with Doki's original characters even in its earliest form. Mario was never considered for the main character until it was decided to port the game to the US because the original SMB2 was considered to hard for dimwitted 80s American kids.

It never started off as a Mario game and was never a "test" for a Mario Game. Which is my point here. The Game was meant to be similar and just as fun as the popular Super Mario Bros. games. It was never intended to become a Mario game in its early stages, only similar gameplay.


Ill scan the pages from the Famicom History book when Im home, hopefully you guys can read Japanese. This book is a great reference anyway its about 700 pages and covers EVERYTHING.

[ccovell]

Be wary of "definitive" game histories in general... companies tend to write their own revisionist histories to suit the marketing angle at the time, so I'd take any official company history with a big grain of salt. Individual developer interviews are a bit more believable (but they still might be mistranslated or the interviewee too deferential to their boss'/supervisor's story anyway.)

At any rate, because of the above ambiguities in researching history, one can never conclude that Doki Doki Panic was meant to be a Mario game. We can only form our personal opinions.

[Greg2600]

I was the prime age 9/10 when SMB 2 came stateside. The improvements in graphics, music, and the ability to use FOUR characters were amazing for us. Plus this was part of Mario Mania, with the Super Show airing at the same time. I thought SMB2 was a lot more fun and engaging than the first one, which was littered with mostly difficult jumps. The enemies were so much cooler, as was the going into the sub-space using the potion. I really don't remember anyone saying the game stunk, or not wanting to play it. The downside was the loss of 2 player action. As I said, it was a smash hit, and was brilliance on the part of Nintendo to release this game and not their Japanese SMB2, which kids would have both hated and ignored.

[Zing]

I was 12 when Mario 2 hit. I don't know what dark, hateful place on earth ever had any complaint against this game, as every gamer in my school went apeshit for it. Even jocks I hardly talked to would tell me secrets they had found in the game, as I didn't get it for Christmas thanks to the "chip shortage". The game was on 60 minutes, and I just happened to see that episode live on TV at my grandparents' house. I loved seeing it on the news, and hoped it would make my parents realize that they really needed to get me that game.

So, I agree that anyone expressing any ill will toward this game is either trying to be "cool" or is just jaded beyond all hope.

[CastlevaniaDude]

Clearly that Wired article states that the game was intended to be "Like Mario" and does not say at all it started off as a Mario game. Being similar is a big difference. Doki Doki/SMB2 started off with Doki's original characters even in its earliest form. Mario was never considered for the main character until it was decided to port the game to the US because the original SMB2 was considered to hard for dimwitted 80s American kids.

It never started off as a Mario game and was never a "test" for a Mario Game. Which is my point here. The Game was meant to be similar and just as fun as the popular Super Mario Bros. games. It was never intended to become a Mario game in its early stages, only similar gameplay.


Ill scan the pages from the Famicom History book when Im home, hopefully you guys can read Japanese. This book is a great reference anyway its about 700 pages and covers EVERYTHING.

Haha... No offense, but I chortled quite hard at the part where you said hopefully you guys can read Japanese. I can't, at least.

[FoxNtd]

Haha... No offense, but I chortled quite hard at the part where you said hopefully you guys can read Japanese. I can't, at least.

Haha.

I can read, and I'd be interested to take a look.

[TonyTheTiger]

IAs I said, it was a smash hit, and was brilliance on the part of Nintendo to release this game and not their Japanese SMB2, which kids would have both hated and ignored.

I think the game would have sold well, at least. Mario was white hot in the late 80s so I'm not sure if it would have been a big enough problem to damage the brand. But it would have pissed a lot of kids off once they realized that despite beating the first game they get stomped on World-2 of this one. Plus, unlike our Mario 2, the lack of two players in Lost Levels feels like a legitimate downgrade.

There were definitely a lot of good reasons to switch it out for Doki Doki, though. It certainly wasn't just because the game was hard. We hear all this talk about the decision being based on Americans not liking the difficulty but I'm sorry, no kid, American or Japanese, is finishing that game. But even so, the NES is no stranger to hard and sometimes even frustrating games that were nevertheless still popular. Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, Battletoads, etc. So I can't imagine the decision being based just on "it's too hard." If difficulty had anything to do with it I would guess it was more based on the surprise factor that comes from a game that is on it's face just like Mario 1 but is actually shockingly different in practice. Anyone would be dumbfounded during that first play session, regardless of nationality. Going from the somewhat challenging but manageable Mario 1 to the controller throwing frustration of Lost Levels would seriously mess with people's heads. So that leads to my ultimate question. Were even the Japanese all that in love with their SMB2?

[Little Miss Gloom]

Man, I love Mario 2. I've heard rumours that Miyamoto always planned Doki Doki Panic as a Mario game and spun it as Dream Factory as a quick cash in ... but I've never found the evidence. Same with rumours of him not being all that satisfied with Super Mario World's final product.

I love people who say they feel betrayed by this game's true history -- as though Mario 2 murdered their family and burned down their house or something.

Either way, it's a great game. One of my favourite memories is when I saved up enough money to buy myself a copy.

[TheRetroVideoGameAddict]

Yeah, Doki Doki was its own game in Japan and NOT originally intended to be a Mario game whatsoever. Nintendo felt that the Japanese Mario 2 was too difficult and contained elements that would frustrate U.S gamers and just made some modifications to Doki Doki Panic to make it a Mario title and the rest is history. I loved both versions of Mario 2, personally.

[wiggyx]

Be wary of "definitive" game histories in general... companies tend to write their own revisionist histories to suit the marketing angle at the time, so I'd take any official company history with a big grain of salt. Individual developer interviews are a bit more believable (but they still might be mistranslated or the interviewee too deferential to their boss'/supervisor's story anyway.)

At any rate, because of the above ambiguities in researching history, one can never conclude that Doki Doki Panic was meant to be a Mario game. We can only form our personal opinions.

Beats hearsay.

(Not that what you're saying is untrue)

Haha... No offense, but I chortled quite hard at the part where you said hopefully you guys can read Japanese. I can't, at least.

, same here. Especially after being told that it would be a good read for us. I'm sure about 95%+ of us can't read Japanese. Wish I could, but those scans would be about as useless as used toilet paper to me

[fahlim003]

I think the dislike for Super Mario Bros. 2/DDP is a more recent trend. It could have spawned when Super Mario Allstars was released and the knowledge about the original SMB2/Lost Levels was revealed but even then I don't think there was much dislike directed towards it. I personally have never had any issue. The game has a lot going for it: music, variety, good graphics, and it's fun. Zing raises a good point in it being released alongside the Supershow, which in turn channeled SMB2 to a great degree (the cartoon anyway).

[TheRedEye]

FOR THE RECORD DOKI DOKI WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE A MARIO GAME NOR WAS IT A "TEST" FOR A MARIO GAME.

Can you back this up? At all?

If you guys want to get super technical, it's almost guaranteed that early versions of what became Doki Doki Panic had Mario in them. Mario is Miyamoto's stand-in actor for new game concepts, and always has been. He just swaps Mario out if he finds something that makes more sense. A recent example of this is Wii Sports, which originally had Mario instead of Miis, but you can look all the way back to the first Zelda. If you check out the pics of the design folders, you can see the earliest one is called "Mario Adventure."

If you read enough Miyamoto interviews to understand his design process, asking if this was originally a Mario game is kind of a moot question. Miyamoto doesn't design for characters, he designs for feeling, and puts in the appropriate "actors" after he's nailed that. I'd imagine they prototyped this concept out, had vague plans of possibly making it a Mario game, and then swapped in the Fuji TV characters when that deal was struck. Then, because it just made sense, they put Mario characters (back?) in for the U.S. release.

[Kiddo]

For any help clearing up which characters are "intended" to be in there...

There's multiple articles stating that the Doki Doki Panic main characters were licensed from Fuji TV's "Dream Factory Communication Carnival" mascots:

http://www.nindb.net/game/dokidoki-panic.html

http://fictionalcrossover.wikia.com/...oki_Doki_Panic

http://www.nintendolife.com/forums/3...apan?start=540

(Blah blah others)

If this is the case then Nintendo probably can't even release the original "Doki Doki Panic" any more, as that license would surely have expired.

I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to rebrand it with Mario characters was influenced by a desire to separate the game code form the licensed characters.

[kupomogli]

Doki Doki Panic was meant to be its own game. I'm very glad Nintendo latter made it into a Mario game because very few people would have played it otherwise, and it is a superior game to the Japanese Super Mario Bros. 2 in my opinion.

This.

Japan had this idea that people in the west sucked ass at video games in comparison to Japanese gamers, and this may be true(see image below,) but kind of disrespectful when you think about it. A lot of games had changes that made them easier for the western market, although few(very few) were much harder in the west(Contra Hard Corps, Ninja Gaiden 3.)

[Gentlegamer]

Can you back this up? At all?

If you guys want to get super technical, it's almost guaranteed that early versions of what became Doki Doki Panic had Mario in them. Mario is Miyamoto's stand-in actor for new game concepts, and always has been. He just swaps Mario out if he finds something that makes more sense. A recent example of this is Wii Sports, which originally had Mario instead of Miis, but you can look all the way back to the first Zelda. If you check out the pics of the design folders, you can see the earliest one is called "Mario Adventure."

If you read enough Miyamoto interviews to understand his design process, asking if this was originally a Mario game is kind of a moot question. Miyamoto doesn't design for characters, he designs for feeling, and puts in the appropriate "actors" after he's nailed that. I'd imagine they prototyped this concept out, had vague plans of possibly making it a Mario game, and then swapped in the Fuji TV characters when that deal was struck. Then, because it just made sense, they put Mario characters (back?) in for the U.S. release.

Makes perfect sense to me, Frank.

SMB2 is my favorite of the NES Mario games. That is was so different from the original made perfect sense to me when it came out. It seemed the trend at the time was for sequels to push a different "style" or mechanic as evidenced by Zelda II and Castlevania II.

edit: ^^^ y cant metroid crawl gets me every time

[A Black Falcon]

For any help clearing up which characters are "intended" to be in there...

There's multiple articles stating that the Doki Doki Panic main characters were licensed from Fuji TV's "Dream Factory Communication Carnival" mascots:

http://www.nindb.net/game/dokidoki-panic.html

http://fictionalcrossover.wikia.com/...oki_Doki_Panic

http://www.nintendolife.com/forums/3...apan?start=540

(Blah blah others)

If this is the case then Nintendo probably can't even release the original "Doki Doki Panic" any more, as that license would surely have expired.

I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to rebrand it with Mario characters was influenced by a desire to separate the game code form the licensed characters.

Yeah, the game is a licensed game with characters from that TV show as the four playable characters, that is true.

[Greg2600]

This.

Japan had this idea that people in the west sucked ass at video games in comparison to Japanese gamers, and this may be true(see image below,) but kind of disrespectful when you think about it. A lot of games had changes that made them easier for the western market, although few(very few) were much harder in the west(Contra Hard Corps, Ninja Gaiden 3.)

Funny they thought that, because if you check any list of arcade game records, particularly classic, Americans dominate. NAMCO had this big celebration after Billy Mitchell's perfect game in Pac-Man. It's not about difficulty so much. I think Western gamers loved fast moving games, games that are fun first. Japanese wanted to be tested mentally at every path, in a puzzle-solving way. JAP-SMB2 if you ask me, game-wise, is not good. It's not fun, it's a pain in the butt which I would have had zero patience for 25 years ago. I don't think it would have ruined the Mario franchise, but it would have been ugly.