Minimum lag and LCD/LED TVs

[treismac]

I'm wanting to buy a new LCD/LED TV and as a gamer I want the least amount of lag possible. Is there a known definitive "lag-free" TV that I should grab? I brought my Ouya over to my parents to test their VIZIO (on "game mode," mind you), and while it is pretty damn close to lag-free, there is just enough lag to make dodging Mike Tyson's initial flash uppercuts impossible after he gives his split-second telegraph. Is this too demanding of a litmus test for a new TV or is technology ready to embrace my retro gaming?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

You need to look up the specs of tvs and look at the response time. Buy an HDTV that has a "game mode" built into its menu. Also, not every brand is equal. Consider a Sony or Samsung tv if at all possible. avoid lesser brands like panasonic, jvc, lg, and so on. It's not necessarily about buying the most expensive tv, but price is a factor as cheaper tvs don't have game modes.

Where you do buy a tv from, make sure you get the return policy details beforehand. Most places will let you return and exchange a new tv if you aren't satisfied with it when you buy it, so take advantage of that. Do some research, narrow down the tvs that seem to best fit your budget, buy the one you think is best and then test it.

[Nophix]

I've been using the Vizio line. Look at refresh rate. You want something 120hz or higher.

Vizio is actually very good, especially the LED line from this year.

If you want to spend the big bucks, Samsung and LG.

Btw, shut OFF all the modes. Get a real calibration disc and set the display up right. That's a big part of the problem people see with LCD lag. So much of the modes introduce artificial processing, and that causes screen lag and chasing.

If you have the movie CARS on DVD, you already have calibration software. It may be on the BluRay as well.

[BetaWolf47]

No, brand isn't even significant when dealing with lag. I returned a Samsung smart TV last year due to bad input lag, even in game mode, and now own an LG that has close (but not completely) zero lag. It's worth mentioning that the LG TV lags on resolutions less than 1080p, but is close to zero on full 1080p. Both TV's in question were LED TV's.

My friend has a 720p Samsung LCD TV that has very low lag on all resolutions. Another friend has a 1080p LG LCD TV that has low lag, at least on 1080p (have not tried less than that on his TV). The only thing that's consistent between all sets is that the less features the TV has, the lower the lag.

<EDIT> Oh, yeah, when testing, make sure you use the composite input, since there are plenty of TVs, such as mine, that lag on 240p, 480i, and 480p, but not so much at higher resolutions.

[kazuo]

You don't ever want to play a console game at anything higher than 60hz. That will absolutely introduce more lag because of the processing required to increase the refresh rate.

"Calibration" has nothing to do with lag. Turn all processing off (including 120hz+ BS) if you're worried about lag. Leaving any kind of processing on (you almost always can never turn all processing off) will increase lag.

Composite inputs on HDTVs lag. All of them. They lag because the image has to be scaled to display properly, which introduces lag.

Most monitors have zero difference in lag between 720p/1080p. Best thing to do is check the native resolution of your monitor and run your device at the same resolution. Keep in mind most consumer-grade "720p" HDTVs are native 768p, so you're gonna get a tiny bit of lag due to the scaling (up/down) unless your device outputs 768p.

Consumer-grade HDTVs will all lag. If you want to spend thousands you can buy pro-grade/industrial monitors that have zero image processing, which theoretically should not lag (it does, but you won't notice).

Most people don't even notice lag for the most part, except for competitive gamers and retro gamers playing via composite/s-video inputs on HDTVs.

http://displaylag.com/ is a great resource for this stuff. They have a database for various monitors which have been tested for input lag: http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

It's important to remember a few things when discussing "lag" as well, notably, that input lag does not equal response time, and "GTG" response time ratings are largely meaningless in practice.

[Greg2600]

Try to research the specific model on forums like avsforum.com for instance. Finding one that is kind to classic 240p systems is really a crapshoot.

[T.A.P.]

Just keep an old CRT around.

It's how they were meant to be played anyway.

[treismac]

Just keep an old CRT around.

It's how they were meant to be played anyway.

Way ahead of you, dude. I have over ten CRTs, but none of them have hdmi inputs to embrace the emulation magic of the Ouya. If I could find a HD widescreen CRT with a hdmi input on craigslist, I might be tempted to call it a day, but I haven't any luck on that front yet.

[Tanooki]

From experience I got to back that big old post of Kazuo's up on the TV you get.

60hz native is a must if you want a far better chance at not having it drag. Everytime that hz goes up exponentially (120, 240, etc) it adds more processing time in to deal with the image being sent to it causing lag. Also be sure you have a TV where you can literally disable every single 'perk' for processing nicer images, smoother images, tweaks to how it processes video or FMV(mpeg), and so on. Everything and anything that adds more image processing to the mix will add more pain to the problem.

I learned this one more or less the hard way between a pair of LCD tv's I have. One is a 26" Panasonic Viera from I think around 2006~ and then I have a year old Samsung 44" LED TV. I at the time had the Wii on the Samsung when Mario Allstars 25th Anniv came out and quickly I thought Nintendo coded up a pile of shit because I couldn't play a game like SMB3 without dying like I was a newb at the game. Simple things like jumps, sticking a jump, or grabbing stuff was delayed just enough my timing threw me a "?" block in size over from where I wanted to be, lots of death and fury ensued. As a result I sold the damn thing off and didn't even want really more than what I had into it too during when people were hitting others up for like $80 on it or so. Fast forward to like a year ago and someone got the game at a flea market and mentioned it on NA and I joked 'double your money' (they got it for like 10 dollars) and they thought I was serious and not being a dick I offered up 25 to ship me it. By that time I had the thing (Wii) on my older LCD tv which is a 720p/1080i 60hz set I always have had all the perks on disabled. I put the game in figuring I'd give it a last shot, and wow, it played like I was on the SNES game to my surprise.

I started looking a lot more into it and lag issues and ultimately that stuff kazuo said and I lightly hit up top there made a world of difference. Even if it's some ghetto brand set since everyone wants LED and 1080p 120 or 240hz sets now, try and find a 60hz 720p tv, and I bet you'll like the results.

[BricatSegaFan]

Way ahead of you, dude. I have over ten CRTs, but none of them have hdmi inputs to embrace the emulation magic of the Ouya. If I could find a HD widescreen CRT with a hdmi input on craigslist, I might be tempted to call it a day, but I haven't any luck on that front yet.

My 32 sony CRT has HDMI.

I was confused at first but damn it looks good.

[Mr Mort]

I have a Phillips tube TV that has component input and supports 480p and 1080i, and it has lag on the 1080i.
Even HD CRT's have processing going on, so you still need to be careful. You'd think these damn manufacturers would give us the option to turn off ALL the processing by now, but I'm sure they're not doing that because the picture would likely look like shit from a composite or S-video source.

[theclaw]

Indeed. Best choice is minimize use of composite. As a lossy image format, it pre-damages video BEFORE reaching the TV.

[T.A.P.]

Way ahead of you, dude. I have over ten CRTs, but none of them have hdmi inputs to embrace the emulation magic of the Ouya. If I could find a HD widescreen CRT with a hdmi input on craigslist, I might be tempted to call it a day, but I haven't any luck on that front yet.

Look for a Sony XBR1720 (I think that's the model number) it's a CRT, has HDMI and is widescreen.

[retroman]

For retro games a crt is still the best option, but for modern games go with a Plasma. Highest refresh rate, best blacks, and with the new tech in them, you dont have to worry about burn in like everyone says.

[BricatSegaFan]

For retro games a crt is still the best option, but for modern games go with a Plasma. Highest refresh rate, best blacks, and with the new tech in them, you dont have to worry about burn in like everyone says.

Don't plasmas eventually run out of gas, like literally? They need to be refilled with argon or something in the span of about 5-10 years.

[wiggyx]

Way ahead of you, dude. I have over ten CRTs, but none of them have hdmi inputs to embrace the emulation magic of the Ouya. If I could find a HD widescreen CRT with a hdmi input on craigslist, I might be tempted to call it a day, but I haven't any luck on that front yet.

My DLP doesn't have an HDMI input, but I can ply the Ouya just fine via DVI, which a lot of older TVs have

[kazuo]

I have a Phillips tube TV that has component input and supports 480p and 1080i, and it has lag on the 1080i.
Even HD CRT's have processing going on, so you still need to be careful. You'd think these damn manufacturers would give us the option to turn off ALL the processing by now, but I'm sure they're not doing that because the picture would likely look like shit from a composite or S-video source.

Yup, everything in this post is spot-on. Even HD CRTs have processing, which is unfortunate. Still have to be careful about this. The best way to go if you want a CRT is a SD CRT or get a CRT computer monitor and some kind of upscan device (i.e. XRGB2/+).

It is true that manufacturers most likely will not give consumers the option of turning processing completely off because non-HD (composite/s-video) sources will look like trash, which is understandable, but only individuals such as ourselves would ever disable the processing, so I don't see why they shouldn't offer it as a feature. It's quite unfortunate as it would mitigate lag issues due to processing for most people. There would probably still be some input lag due to varying response time, but it would be better than having processing add additional lag on top of it.

[BetaWolf47]

My DLP doesn't have an HDMI input, but I can ply the Ouya just fine via DVI, which a lot of older TVs have

But is that DVI-I, DVI-D, or DVI-A? DVI-D is quite literally the same signal as HDMI sans audio, and might end up introducing lag to CRTs.

[bigbacon]

Don't plasmas eventually run out of gas, like literally? They need to be refilled with argon or something in the span of about 5-10 years.

this was true with the early ones but newer ones are not a problem.

also,

I would look for a plasma that is a few years old that isn't 120hz+. I have had great luck with plasmas and older consoles even using just RCA inputs. My current 50 incher doesn't have any noticable lag at all and the games look fantastic. Minus light gun games, I would so rather use this TV than any CRT, it just looks that good. Crisp and sharp picture on every console I have.

[BetaWolf47]

this was true with the early ones but newer ones are not a problem.

also,

I would look for a plasma that is a few years old that isn't 120hz+. I have had great luck with plasmas and older consoles even using just RCA inputs. My current 50 incher doesn't have any noticable lag at all and the games look fantastic. Minus light gun games, I would so rather use this TV than any CRT, it just looks that good. Crisp and sharp picture on every console I have.

I'm confused... I thought all plasma TV's were 600 hz?