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Thread: PS2 and the new Gen

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    Pac-Man (Level 10) Rickstilwell1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    I don't buy it either since nothing would be classic gaming then. But where mainstream retailers are concerned, it most certainly is a factor and hardly something to be confused about. You must realize that's what I meant and that I surely wasn't inferring that a system couldn't be classic gaming just because there were still brand new items available for it at something like a independent gaming store or up on eBay.

    I can go to my local Wal-Right right now and buy brand new Dual Shock 2's, brand new 1st party memory cards, and a small variety of PS2 software that's still sticking around (Not to mention brand new games are still being released although they seem to largely be online exclusives around the world). Some of you folks were ready years ago even when new PS2's were everywhere and games were regularly coming out.

    If that's not modern gaming, just what is? To me, classic gaming is when all but a select few have left the console behind and mainstream retailers and the manufacturers have ceased any sort of support since there simply isn't a customer base left to justify it any longer. That makes far more sense than an arbitrary standard that if it's two generations out of date then it's classic gaming. It's far too subjective for that sort of a standard I think and not every system from the same generation experiences the same lifespan. And when there's signs it's not even completely dead commercially, I certainly think that here's a bit of room for debate.

    That said, I'd be comfortable shifting related discussion at this point to the classic gaming forum. I just don't think that it's un-debatable that it's not still modern gaming.
    You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.
    [quote name='Shidou Mariya' date='Nov 17 2010, 10:05 PM' post='4889940']
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    Not as extreme as Rickstilwell though.[/quote]


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    We're not talking about specialty shops that are selling nos famicoms. We're talking about mainstream stores ie walmart, gamestop, Yamada denki selling new from factory not some dank forgotten warehouse in Thailand. So a console that plays DVDs, should be moved to the same category as an Atari. Dual shock 2 controllers lumped in with your standard nes dog bone controllers. The PS2 features are not classic, I think it's life span would suggest thAt it is still relevant in today's market.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Leo_A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickstilwell1 View Post
    You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.
    It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary lifespans that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.

    Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style console gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct for a time.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 09-27-2015 at 01:23 AM.

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    Pac-Man (Level 10) Rickstilwell1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary life's that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.

    Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct.
    I'm all for "off with the cords" where anything that isn't wireless by default feels like outdated technology. From last gen (Wii/PS3/360) on out I bet nothing will come wired by default.
    [quote name='Shidou Mariya' date='Nov 17 2010, 10:05 PM' post='4889940']
    I'm a collector, but only to a certain extent.
    Not as extreme as Rickstilwell though.[/quote]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    I don't buy it either since nothing would be classic gaming then. But where mainstream retailers are concerned, it most certainly is a factor and hardly something to be confused about. You must realize that's what I meant and that I surely wasn't inferring that a system couldn't be classic gaming just because there were still brand new items available for it at something like a independent gaming store or up on eBay.

    I can go to my local Wal-Right right now and buy brand new Dual Shock 2's, brand new 1st party memory cards, and a small variety of PS2 software that's still sticking around (Not to mention brand new games are still being released although they seem to largely be online exclusives around the world). Some of you folks were ready years ago even when new PS2's were everywhere and games were regularly coming out.

    If that's not modern gaming, just what is? To me, classic gaming is when all but a select few have left the console behind and mainstream retailers and the manufacturers have ceased any sort of support since there simply isn't a customer base left to justify it any longer. That makes far more sense than an arbitrary standard that if it's two generations out of date then it's classic gaming. It's far too subjective a subject for that sort of a standard I think and not every system from the same generation experiences the same lifespan. And when there's signs it's not even completely dead commercially, I certainly think that here's a bit of room for debate.

    That said, I'd be comfortable shifting related discussion at this point to the classic gaming forum. I just don't think that it's un-debatable that it's not still modern gaming.
    When the Modern Gaming forum here was first created, you could still buy PS1 stuff at mainstream stores. So I don't think that standard holds.
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    To those saying that it's not a retro system because you can still find games for it at retailers, I must ask: What does large print runs have to do with it being classic or not?

    I would've understood anyone saying that it's not a classic system because there are still games being officially released for it, though. FIFA 14 was just released for the PS2. It's actually called "FIFA 14 Legacy Edition" - no joke. And as I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.

    Personally, I think it should be considered a classic system when both the final game for it, and the PS4 and XO, are released.


    Quote Originally Posted by DiEsmitty View Post
    The only remotely retro feature about a PS2 would be the external memory i.e. memory card.
    And wired controllers as the standard.
    And no HDMI connection.
    And no system online store for buying digital release games.

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    ^to add to this^

    do you expect every copy of that crappy sports game to sell out completely in a few years ant not have any left overs in a retail store because people just don't want it?
    where I work there are 2 PS2 games, GTA 3 collection and Mortal Kombat Kollection.
    these cases aren't bad games, every one and their dog own them by now so they do not sell, and home office keeps sending us this crap!
    an extreme case, NBA 2k4. it was at the new old store I worked, freight got transferred in from a store we closed and it went with it, still has a tag for about $40.

    walmart is notorious for keeping crap and trying to make something back on it. I remember for the LONGEST time there were 3do accessories at one, they were there till probably 2005 I think. when I started working there and we closed that store down I was hoping to find some in the back room but to no avail...did find a set of SNES cables, they told us to sell them for what ever we could get for them as-is. cheapest set of SNES cables I have ever bought...

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nz17 View Post
    After all, if we kept Modern Gaming as a moving target, every few years we'd have to redo things either by moving thousands of threads or creating a new sub-forum for the latest stuff. As you might imagine, it would start looking like five different forums with the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, and 2010's each having their own forum... and eventually we'd need to add a sixth.
    Good as far as it goes, but that just pushes the day of reckoning down the road...yeah, I'm not suggesting finding and moving every last topic based on content. The current "Modern Gaming" thread could get split off into a "fourth to sixth generation" forum (listing consoles).

    Seeing the wisdom in the big sites just proliferating new subforums to handle each individual console.

    We'll see, though; it shouldn't get too stuffy in here.

    It is easy to miss the "after Y2K" edit on the forum description though, and "today, classic means everything before the PlayStation 2" still doesn't really make sense to folks...maybe that could be rewritten.
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 10-28-2013 at 05:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyra View Post
    To those saying that it's not a retro system because you can still find games for it at retailers, I must ask: What does large print runs have to do with it being classic or not?

    I would've understood anyone saying that it's not a classic system because there are still games being officially released for it, though. FIFA 14 was just released for the PS2. It's actually called "FIFA 14 Legacy Edition" - no joke. And as I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.

    Personally, I think it should be considered a classic system when both the final game for it, and the PS4 and XO, are released.




    And wired controllers as the standard.
    And no HDMI connection.
    And no system online store for buying digital release games.
    Wow wired controllers and HDMI are the defining traits for classics. Sounds like young bucks with a small attention span. The wii lacked HDMI. Most play and charge kits for all current systems have you tethered while you charge. The Wii, the PS3, I barely remember the original Xbox I was away a lot in the military where the first consoles to have online stores. However there is nothing classic about a system that has a large online presence.
    As for games here in Japan there are tons of new games for the ps2 not sports games, jrpgs, anime, eroge you name it. The peripherals that were made for this system, should demonstrate that it is not a "classic" system. I have a japanese PSX and nothing about that feels classic.

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    In my opinion, the PlayStation2 and the Nintendo GameCube are qualified as some kind of "classic" consoles or "retro" consoles, because they established and died as "non-download-content" consoles. Their library of games is fully useable "as they known to be" without access to the internet and patch libraries.

    I think the establishment of signed downloads, like patches, download content and download only games, wich required a subscription to an online service is the most important difference between two generations of gaming systems.

    May be it's time for some new categories in generations. Like "before" and "after" online based services.

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    Cherry (Level 1) Guyra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiEsmitty View Post
    Wow wired controllers and HDMI are the defining traits for classics.
    I'm not sure if you noticed the quotation I did there. If the use of memory cards is a defining trait for classic systems, as the person I quoted says, then I believe the the things I listed are as well.

    In addition, how about thinking of how it has all these traits at once, instead of thinking of how one system might have maybe one of these traits?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiEsmitty View Post
    The wii lacked HDMI. Most play and charge kits for all current systems have you tethered while you charge.
    I would be highly surprised if you've never heard or seen people discussing how the Wii should be considered a part of the previous generation of hardware.

    And is your argument that because you have to connect modern, wireless gaming controllers to cables so they can charge, they are equal to actual wired gaming controllers? If so, then I must say that's just reaching for straws. I'm sure that if we had the technology for automatically charging wireless peripherals without connecting it to anything, in a practical and cost and time efficient manner, we would've used it. But as it stands, of course you need to connect the batteries to the charger. That doesn't make wireless peripherals(with charging cables) less wireless; This is just how the technology works.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiEsmitty View Post
    The Wii, the PS3, I barely remember the original Xbox I was away a lot in the military where the first consoles to have online stores. However there is nothing classic about a system that has a large online presence.
    Yes, the original Xbox had an online store. But you really can't say it "has a large online presence," as you put it. The Xbox Live for the original Xbox - meaning everything online about it - closed down on April 15th 2010. That's three and a half years ago. So that system does not have any online presence at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiEsmitty View Post
    As for games here in Japan there are tons of new games for the ps2 not sports games, jrpgs, anime, eroge you name it. The peripherals that were made for this system, should demonstrate that it is not a "classic" system. I have a japanese PSX and nothing about that feels classic.
    I'm with you on the part about new games for it. I think that was made clear in my previous post. However, how does the peripherals that were made for the PS2 demonstrate that it's not a classic system? I mean, have you even looked at the stuff they had for the Famicom and NES?

    Karaoke microphones
    One handed controllers
    Barcode Battler II - similar to the Skylanders figurines
    3D/virtual reality goggles
    Internet modem
    Motion controller
    Wireless controller system
    Controllerless system (waving your hands in the air like Kinect)

    And that's just some of it.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Leo_A's Avatar
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    Frankly, all these posts further the point. Two generations old equating to automatic classic status clearly isn't how many people think. There are a lot of factors that lead to a classic gamer classifying a system in their mind as classic rather than a modern game system.

    So there's certainly a bit of room for argument rather than being clear cut like some suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niku-Sama View Post
    do you expect every copy of that crappy sports game to sell out completely in a few years ant not have any left overs in a retail store because people just don't want it?
    When I see new PS2 games in stock, it's not lingering copies of five year old releases of Madden and such. It's popular games that have been reprinted in recent years that are still actively being stocked by the retailer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyra View Post
    PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.
    The last 50 games have been proclaimed as "the last game for the system".

    In lieu of an official announcement of that fact which I doubt occurred, I'll believe it when a year rolls by with nothing and there isn't a PES 2015.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickstilwell1 View Post
    I'm all for "off with the cords" where anything that isn't wireless by default feels like outdated technology. From last gen (Wii/PS3/360) on out I bet nothing will come wired by default.
    Xbox 360 gamepads came wired in the non hard drive model in early years. And nunchucks and Classic Controllers always have been "tethered" to a wireless Wiimote. And a lot of 3rd party controllers have and likely will continue to be wired like arcade sticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    When the Modern Gaming forum here was first created, you could still buy PS1 stuff at mainstream stores. So I don't think that standard holds.
    I wasn't proposing a standard. Frankly, I personally think the Playstation 2 is in an in-between area. Too young to truly be considered as a classic gaming system yet too old to be a modern gaming system. So if I really cared, I'm fine either way things go. It's the suggestion from a couple that this is clear cut that I argued with.

    And I don't remember when that classification happened around here, but Digital Press dates back to the glory years of the Playstation. And for years after the Playstation 2, you'd of easily found arguments if someone proclaimed it as classic. I didn't even get mine until the redesign hit $50 new and they were a popular item that year after that price drop back in 2003 or so (Often being sold with an attachable LCD screen).

    And new games were still happening well after that. Games that the average person could actually find easily at brick & mortar retailers, unlike these last few PS2 soccer games.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-28-2015 at 07:39 PM.

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    Key (Level 9) Satoshi_Matrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.

    It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary life's that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.
    Yeah...except that I don't buy that argument either. Just because a platform that has an extraordinary long life spanning multiple generations is still being sold on store shelves doesn't mean it is not retro.

    You brought up the Atari 2600. The 2600 was still being sold in the early 90's alongside the SNES, Genesis and TG-16. By your logic, are you saying the 2600 was still a modern platform at that time?

    And then moving on to the PS2 - yes, it's still being sold in stores, but the PS2 has been in a retirement home on life support for years, at least since 2009. That has come out since 2009 that was not a sports game and was actually worth buying?

    Just because some stores still sell PS2 stuff (you brought up Walmart...there's no PS2 stuff in any walmart I've been in for several years now. It must be an American thing in major cities only?) does not mean the PS2 is a modern console.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post

    Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct.
    The Dreamcast is part of the PS2/GC/Xbox era. What does it's premature death have to do with anything? Also, the SNES became retro around ~1999, 2000.
    check out my classic gaming review site: http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/

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    Just to recognize! The last SNES game official released in north america was "Frogger" in 1998. The SFC game official released in japan was "Metal Slader Glory" in end of 2000... a half year after the PlayStation2 has been released in japan.

    The Genesis and SNES, both of them have still releases that are not official and not homebrew.

    In my opinion the SNES was already a classic a long time bevor the release of the Playstation2. It's a 10 year span from the SNES to PlayStation2. And it's a nearly 14 year span between PlayStation2 and the PlayStation4.

    What I want to say... The last game release, or the time between systems means nothing. NOTHING!!!!


    What defines something as classic and modern is the type of system and style of play.

    8Bit "homecomputer" style -> 16Bit cartridge based consoles (nes/snes/genesis/pce) -> 3D optical media (cd/gd/dvd) based consoles (ps1-2/ngc/dc)-> network service and download based consoles (ps3-4/xbox1-3) -> subscription/service based consoles (ps5? ps-gaikai)

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    Kirby (Level 13) Leo_A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Matrix View Post
    Yeah...except that I don't buy that argument either. Just because a platform that has an extraordinary long life spanning multiple generations is still being sold on store shelves doesn't mean it is not retro.

    You brought up the Atari 2600. The 2600 was still being sold in the early 90's alongside the SNES, Genesis and TG-16. By your logic, are you saying the 2600 was still a modern platform at that time?

    And then moving on to the PS2 - yes, it's still being sold in stores, but the PS2 has been in a retirement home on life support for years, at least since 2009. That has come out since 2009 that was not a sports game and was actually worth buying?

    Just because some stores still sell PS2 stuff (you brought up Walmart...there's no PS2 stuff in any walmart I've been in for several years now. It must be an American thing in major cities only?) does not mean the PS2 is a modern console.
    I clearly stated that I don't consider the Playstation 2 a classic or a modern system. I'm not arguing for either one. I'm arguing that it could easily go either way and that the fact that it still has some commercial life is just one argument that someone could use against those proclaiming that it's an undeniable fact that it's a classic gaming system.

    This if it's two generations old it's automatically classic rule you seem to be using is rubbish. It's not anywhere near that simple as this thread attests to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Matrix View Post
    Also, the SNES became retro around ~1999, 2000.
    Nonsense

    Nintendo just launched an entire hardware design barely a year before that time and was selling millions of them and many millions of cartridges. Their sales by year are out there on their Japanese website with these stats. A system with a nearly new revision selling a lot of hardware and games sure isn't classic in my book and most certainly is modern gaming.

    And since there is no right or wrong here, I'm as right in saying it didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Matrix View Post
    The Dreamcast is part of the PS2/GC/Xbox era. What does it's premature death have to do with anything?
    There's nothing confusing about my statement. I clearly indicated that I don't think there's one hard and fast rule that you go off in making this determination. And myself and many other's in this thread have talked about many factors that play into it for themselves. One for instance talked about the cut off from wired controllers and wireless as a transition in his mind where the classic era currently ends and the modern era starts for him.

    So what I said makes perfect sense. There are a lot of intangibles at play here in people's minds. And you will find many that proclaimed the Dreamcast a classic console well before any of its competition. And these are some of the reasons why that happened early for the Dreamcast for many compared to its contemporaries. Not sure why you've chosen to debate this particular bit or feign confusion about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    INot to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 05-14-2014 at 07:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    In my opinion the SNES was already a classic a long time before the release of the Playstation2. It's a 10 year span from the SNES to PlayStation2. And it's a nearly 14 year span between PlayStation2 and the PlayStation4.

    What I want to say... The last game release, or the time between systems means nothing. NOTHING!!!!
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    I clearly stated that I don't consider the Playstation 2 a classic or a modern system. I'm not arguing for either one. I'm arguing that it could easily go either way and that the fact that it still has some commercial life is just one argument that someone could use against those proclaiming that it's an undeniable fact that it's a classic gaming system.
    Sorry, it just seemed like you were implying the PS2 is not a classic console at this point. I suppose there is some validity in the statement that the PS2 has the slimmest of commercial viability in today's console market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    This if it's two generations old it's automatically classic rule you seem to be using is rubbish. It's not anywhere near that simple as this thread attests to.
    With respect, explain to me how this is "rubbish" and not a universal truth? What console or handheld is two generations old and not classic in your view (other than the PS2 which you've continued to argue for possibly still being considered modern as a strange anomaly of gaming)
    check out my classic gaming review site: http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/

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    I hardly think I'm nitpicking about the Playstation 2 having some commercial life when it's still even seeing commercial game development and official releases from major publishers. And the Playstation 2 is only one generation old and is on the cusp of entering its 2nd post replacement console generation still kicking ever so slightly.

    And I argued that entering its second post replacement generation doesn't automatically equate to classic. I didn't necessarily state that there are any present exceptions to that. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule here and like I already said, this thread and the many opinions and qualifications of the classic gaming community that have partly been expressed here is proof that it's not so simple. After all, this is only an ambiguous standard which the community decides on and typically argues about.

    But I'd certainly argue for the Atari 2600 which lasted through two full console generations after its own (5200/Vectrex/Colecovision and then NES/SMS/7800/XEGS) and didn't see its commercial demise until into the third as possibly qualifying. And several certainly have gotten close if not made it commercially into its 3rd post replacement generation.

    But the better examples are the ones that made it early for many. The Dreamcast for those reasons you dismissed was widely viewed as classic gaming years before its contemporaries, the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis that were the last mainstream consoles that were predominantly 2D, the Neo Geo which I think was classified as such in the minds of the vast majority years before SNK ceased commercial support, etc.

    For me personally, many qualifications I think are at play in my mind. Some of the major ones are has the system commercially died and how much time has passed since it ceased to have any commercial viability, is it commonly played by the average person or is it just kept alive by a few thousand classic gamers, what's the situation with both new and these days used stock at major retail chains, and what evolution has occurred with the switch of console generations.

    There isn't just 1 factor at play and something like the demise of 2D gaming, for me at least, is going to make me quicker to consider a console and its respective generation as classic gaming material than something far less dramatic and different like this shift we're undergoing presently.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-28-2013 at 09:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    Nonsense

    Nintendo just launched an entire hardware design barely a year before that time and was selling millions of them and many millions of cartridges. Their sales by year are out there on their Japanese website with these stats. A system with a nearly new revision selling a lot of hardware and games sure isn't classic in my book and most certainly is modern gaming.

    And since there is no right or wrong here, I'm as right in saying it didn't.
    The SNS-101 was released in october 1997 [NA] / march 1998 [JAP]. May be you have some kind of magic crystal ball... but at my very intense research i haven't found any proofed sales volume and you can still buy a genesis/megadrive (official licensed by sega, produced by at games) at toys'r'us.

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    I'm not talking things like Atari Flashbacks. I'm talking about 1st party hardware from the manufacturer itself for a platform that has never left production. Not classic gaming plug and play revivals, typically from 3rd party companies like AtGames that do little more than license some IP years after the commercial demise of console platform, and usually don't even accept original media.

    And like I said, Nintendo launched an entire redesign a little bit over a year before his 1999 time frame that the platform suddenly became retro. As for the sales stats, I most certainly didn't pull them out of a hat. So you will have to do better than that. Your intense research if it ever actually happens will quickly reveal this data that Nintendo has available and which has gotten a fair bit of press in recent years.

    Or like I already said, it's right on their Japanese website. You could just go and actually take a look for yourself. When you do, you will see that Nintendo sold 2.04 million Super Nintendo systems and 14.5 million games in the 1998 fiscal year, 1.43 million systems and 6 million games in 1999, 280,000 systems and 1.5 million games in 2000, and 90,000 systems and 150,000 games in 2001.

    That was the last fiscal year which included North America (which constituted the bulk of sales in the recent years leading up to this). It may have contributed past that date but sales weren't enough to round up to 10,000 (Which is what these figures are in). Then in Japan it lasted at least into the 2004 fiscal year where they sold enough systems to still count as 1 (10,000 units). Not enough games were sold to count that year.

    So if someone considers the end of a console's commercial life as one determinant in the overall classification of a platform, which I'm sure I'm not alone in considering, that one was still kicking pretty well back around 1999.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-28-2013 at 04:23 PM.

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    With the sales value i referred to the SNS-101.

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