RetroN5: Hands on first look

[Tanooki]

Is that why using Piko's old Mother 3 release why I could never ever get down the multi-strike stuff with the music. I'm not good with musical timing to a point, but to blow it every single time other than maybe a one off to get a 2x hit seemed extreme so because it was a death blow to my advancement I ended up passing it along.

[Tanooki]

Oh by the way, no custom firmware involved it appears, yet someone broke open the R5 to run some roms, somehow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sCe...ature=youtu.be

Hyperkin rep posted it on facebook, and now the post is erased, but I got a mirrored copy that linked a youtube proof of concept in action which is the above link.

[Az]

IPS patching. Pretty cool, unexpected feature.

For those that always want flashcart support one could just create IPS patches to change a cart to anything. Although I know little of the GBA side I can affirm that on the MD/SNES portion creating a custom IPS patch to change a game to anything else you want seems to work fine.

Edit
Looks like the above linked video does that.

[Tanooki]

It does but it does not show you how to make it so you can run whatever you want which is pretty damn annoying to video brag and then not share. The only thing you can gain so far from the comments is that to work you have to put a game from the system you're running the ROM for, any game. So like GB Tetris can be in the slot, and you can run Super Mario Land 2 or Final Fantasy Adventure, and so on into console games like put in Starfox and run Super Mario RPG.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

tomorrow morning I pick up my Retron5. Impressions (especially how it compares to the Ouya) will follow.

[Az]

It does but it does not show you how to make it so you can run whatever you want which is pretty damn annoying to video brag and then not share.

There's nothing to it really, you're just using the IPS patch to replace the entire ROM contents rather than just small bits and pieces of graphics or text. In an IPS program load the cart you have as the source and the ROM you want as the finished file, then when the patch it spits out is applied it changes your ROM dumped by the console entirely to something else.

Course the resulting IPS patch is much larger than a simple graphical or text hack, the size will be damn near the same as the entire ROM you're trying to replace it with.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Updated the firmware and tried out a lot of content.

compatibility reports to follow, but for now, couple of things I've noticed in the first few hours:

The Retron5 is more specialized, but wow it is missing a lot of features that come standard on Ouya's .emu series.

The screenshot function needs to save to an SD card for whatever reason, but when I tried experimenting, I noticed it saves screenshots as lossy JPEGs! Seriously!? Why the hell Hyperkin? Every other emulator uses .PNG or at least .BMP. Lossy JPEG screenshots are something I would expect from Nintendo! These artifact ridden jpeg screenshots are worthless, especially since I could take crystal clear .png screenshots from my Ouya.

Then I tried original GameBoy games. Why is it they only seem to be capable of running in grayscale? Why can't you select the color options of the GBC? Once again this is a simple feature the Ouya has over the Retron5. Yes, it does render SGB comptible games at least in their enhanced SGB modes, but even they don't have the SGB enhanced features like audio from the SNES, Space Invaders '95 doesn't work properly, and you can't disable the SGB color either. This emulator needs work to be anywhere near the level already on the Ouya.

Likewise, GBC games only run in GBC mode and cannot be played grayscale or in SGB or GBA modes. GBA enhanced GBC games have their content locked as a result, and excellent games such as Shantae look worse than if played on the GB Player. This needs a major overhaul.

Also you cannot assign auto fire with any controller, not even the R5 pad?! WHAT.

I want to use an SNES controller to play NES games and have Y = B, B = A, X = Autofire B, and A = Autofire A. I can do that on Ouya. Why can't I do that here?! None of the controller options support turbo/auto fire at all!

There are some things I like about the Retron5 but there's a lot of noticeable features missing that this thing should have. Currently, the Ouya's emulators are far, far more fully featured. Hopefully someone can voice these complaints to Hyperkin and have them address these issues in firmware updates.

[Tanooki]

I had no idea but the retron tech is reading this forum. Satoshi, the JPG screen shot setup is not worthless. It has no compression set to it at all, so there's no loss in quality. You're saying it's lossy, he's telling me it's set to not be lossy at all.

I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers. I think you're a bit too enamored by Ouya while being pissed at them over the shipping delay and looking for reasons.

Perhaps if you think these issues and non-issues are so huge you could direct a conversation to the retron tech over on facebook or write something here, I guess he'll see it but I have no idea if he'd make an account to answer.

I'm talking to him about your post at the moment live. PNG format could be a possibility to add for images. GBC color palette schemes is being addressed as well with game specific settings.

[Tanooki]

To Satoshi, Az and the others. If you have an issue, let's post these things publicly and be very specific what is causing it, what you're using and so on. He does read this forum so that information will be taken down and used for upgrades/repairs.

AZ to that PM you sent me about SMS/SRAM, he'll need to know what games, what devices, etc you're using.


Hey Satoshi I've been thinking. You seem to be still pretty up on the Ouya. How about this? Why not compare them on base features? I'm talking about what really critically matters. Input lag, Audio Lag, framerate, visual filters, even connected controllers via usb (usb-snes pad ouya vs r5 with snes pad.) Bells an whistles with auto fire buttons and color palettes for gbc are frills, and they are being added/worked on anyways since it's in development so they're temporary gripes. Let's look at the core hardware and core performance and see what comes out on top.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Satoshi, the JPG screen shot setup is not worthless. It has no compression set to it at all, so there's no loss in quality. You're saying it's lossy, he's telling me it's set to not be lossy at all.

JPEG is a compressed, lossy format used for quick loading of websites. Even "no compression" jpeg is still lossy. I'm not just saying this. I have taken screenshots with the Retrtron5 and when I looked at them in photoshop, noticed compression all over the place and then noticed they're friggin jpegs. If you'd like, I can post direct screenshot comparisons between what I get from the Retron5 and what I get from the Ouya.

Hyperkin should swtich to using .png. Immediately.

I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers.

When pure emulation, one shouldn't have to rely on using a controller with turbo fire switches like they'd have to use on the real hardware. Every emulator worthwhile has turbo fire settings, and not just on Ouya. On the PSP, on Wii homebrew, original Xbox, various retro game compilations like Megaman Anniversary Collection or Metal Slug Anthology. You can remap the controls of any controller, but there are no settings for auto fire, and no settings to adjust the rate of auto fire. These should be added in as they are glaring omissions.

Also why is it you cannot set Retron5 specific functions like return to the menu to the SNES or Genesis six button controller with a single button? When I'm playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC, I want to use an SNES controller that is mapped as such:

Y = B
B = A
X = Turbo B
A = Turbo A
L = Return to Retron5 Menu (functions the same as the Home button on the Retron5 pad)
R = Some other function, maybe save state

The way it is right now, you HAVE to use a button combo. It doesn't let you reassign it to only a single button even if that single button is unused! This should be changed as well, at least when using a SNES or Six button Genesis controller. I can understand not letting you do that with an NES controller since there are too few buttons, but c'mon, why is it that I have to use a button combo for controllers that have extra, unused buttons?

I think you're a bit too enamored by Ouya while being pissed at them over the shipping delay and looking for reasons.

I am certainly angry at Hyperkin for all their delays, but my above complaints aren't anything about the Ouya, they're about glaring omissions with the Retron5 that are present in emulators for all kinds of other devices. These things can easily be fixed, so the fact that they aren't is what I find strange. It's like Hyperkin didn't even look at other emulators to see what functions they offer and the Retron5 should as well.


Tanooki, is it possible for you to pm me some contact info for the R5 tech? I don't want to yell at the guy or anything like that, I just want to inform him of some specific problems as I've said above and some others as I've had several games come up as UNKNOWN CARTRIDGE or just not work at all when they should.


Also, on the OUya vs Retron5 comparison, specifically lay out everything that you want me to compare and I'll do that.

[Tanooki]

I'm aware of how JPEG works, wife is a amateur/semi-pro level photographer and she refuses to use anything but RAW for that very reason. The argument he made was that it's set to 0% compression so it's just the standard minimal 'lossy' effect of the format but for most people it's clean. He said he could add PNG support. He reads this thread, just only pops in guest to not become an issue on this site and others.


I get your argument about the controller. Yes they could add it, I bet you they will but you have to realize it's trivial compared to true problems and larger issues even if those are somewhat trivial too, like the IPS/UPS patching. Yet they're still cleaning out the sync bugs, random games failing to work right or load at all and that's far more important and I think you'd agree. I feel you that games and compo packages have the ability to remap, and on a basic level so does the R5 to any button, and combos are there for the menu functions because it's a security thing really because some games do use combos of buttons or specific buttons to do functions so I understand why they did that. Perhaps they will open it up wider later, but I doubt it will be the next beta. Perhaps if this is a huge issue for you, you should let the guy know and give him a logical plan to cover this omission that covers ALL contingencies between different games which use buttons varying ways. Many games just use what's there, some will use combos too like Wing Commander SNES uses 2 or 3 buttons to toggle through the left/right HUD panels to do functions.

I don't feel what you're saying are glaring omissions really are, it's in the end ultimately optional fluff, all of it you've brought up again in the last post. You do have some valid ones with the GBC color handling, but as he said and I relayed it is being added so that can come off your list of problems. The way I've had it explained is that the priority stuff, the actual functioning of the core systems, android menu package (menu, bootloader, crc game detection, handling of files/saves/picture) core hardware level emulation packages (all systems in relation to accuracy, sync, function, etc) and the controller stuff is all the priority as this games the games run and run correctly to the original stuff. Then you have the secondary things, the fluff, IPS packages, your idea of button mapping possibilities, running bootleg/multi cart warez carts, legit homebrew, and other stuff comes after the fact as it's all just extra gravy the end user would like to have included. I can't blame them for making it right before making the extras right and exist.

I don't have an email or phone for the tech, I just use his private comment(message) feature up on facebook. You can find his account with the following link, send a message and let him know it's you by your DP 'nickname' and you'll get somewhere I'm sure. He knows of you by name and your comments and would surely like to hash things out with concerns. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005440995949

[Leo_A]

I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers.

Of course it isn't necessary, but this feature is hardly a niche one nor a complicated one for them to implement.

I had assumed until now that the Retron 5 already had this option. It's an obvious one that I think most of their customers, at least those more familiar with the nature of this product, would take for granted as being present from day 1 until to their surprise someday when they go to enable it, they can't find it.

If I wanted to use a stock gamepad and enable turbofire, I should be able to do just that on this emulation machine.

[Az]

AZ to that PM you sent me about SMS/SRAM, he'll need to know what games, what devices, etc you're using.

Both a regular Sega branded US Power Base Converter & Tototek SMS/MarkIII converter. Tested on several (all?) US released SMS games with SRAM, and being as there was only a handful I'm pretty sure I tried them all. Miracle Warriors, Phantasy Star, Y's: The Vanquished Omens and something else I can't think off off the top of my head. All load up with headers correctly and play FM sound if applicable but do not detect any SRAM backup. Does not do an initial import and if you try to manually import/export saves it gives the ususal "cart doesn't have SRAM or is unsupported" error.

Often the original save game is left alone and ignored (it will still be on there if you remove the cart from the R5 and plug it in a SMS/MD) but it has been deleted on older firmware/software updates.

Also mappers for Korean MarkIII games aren't supported, but I'm sure that's the least of their priorities.

[Tanooki]

Ok got some stuff here.

For starters and even the Tech pointed this out to me too, Satoshi I did lay it out, you're dodging asking that. Go back to my other post and read the part of looking at it from a performance standpoint where I listed things making frills which can and likely will be added secondary.

Now AZ -- Confirmed, SMS on any thing is not going to work, currently. The problem, it's not added at all as he has no US-SMS games at all, and since there isn't info out there, he needs the cart to analyze it in order to add SRAM save for SMS or it'll go unfinished I guess. I hope someone can find him a dirt cheap loose copy of Ys, PStar, or MW to do that.

As for my SMB2 issue and others, US office has the game, tested it on their hardware and it works, so for those where it failed (me) it's a problem and I guess a replacement will come out to me in return.

PNG -- added in the dev build, guess this will pop up sooner than later for those who aren't fans of JPG.

GBC -- Color selection works including auto selection for certain games based on the GBC database(I'm guessing this means games with preset colors in the GBC bios such as Kirby DL2, Metroid, Street Fighter II, etc will do as they did on the GBC.)

I hope this helps.

[ibain]

Updated the firmware and tried out a lot of content.

Also you cannot assign auto fire with any controller, not even the R5 pad?! WHAT.

I didn't even think of that option, but it would be awesome if they added it

ETA: Is there any talk from Hyperkin of creating a wireless controller with a real D pad in the future? I honestly stopped using the included controller all together now. I love the wireless, just hate the controller itself. Hell, if there was a patch so I could connect a wii controller or ps3 controller to it, I'd be happy.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Of course it isn't necessary, but this feature is hardly a niche one nor a complicated one for them to implement.

I had assumed until now that the Retron 5 already had this [turbo fire button options]. It's an obvious one that I think most of their customers, at least those more familiar with the nature of this product, would take for granted as being present from day 1 until to their surprise someday when they go to enable it, they can't find it.

If I wanted to use a stock gamepad and enable turbofire, I should be able to do just that on this emulation machine.

This is 100% how I felt. Turbo fire buttons are present in every emulator except for the ones from Nintendo because Nintendo's emulators are incredibly barebones and lacking tons of other basic functions. I had assumed that Turbo fire button mappings could be toggled with the 1.0 Retron5 firmware since that's something that can be done on emulators for Xbox, Wii, PSP, Ouya, PC and tons of other devices. I agree, get the emulation structure up and running before you add extras, but c'mon, this needs to be added.

To reiterate, I want:

-In additional to all current button mappings, the ability to assign turbo fire versions of all action buttons for all systems.

-Turbo mappings not to interfer with regular mappings! For example, when playing NES games with an SNES or the R5 controller, I want to be able to have access to the B and A buttons and ALSO turbo B and A buttons so I can switch simply from regular B to turbo B just by moving my thumb to another button.

-Remove the restrictions with accessing the R5's emulation functions via a button combo! If I am playing NES games with an SNES controller, I want to be able to simply press the L button and return to the R5's menu the same way as simply pressing the R5's home button. Still allow button combos to access these features of course, but remove the restrictions that you HAVE to press at least two buttons to access the menu.

[Tanooki]

More updates beta5 now!

2.0 Beta 5!

- "Patches" menu converted to "Game specific settings" which from this point will allow certain settings to be configured on a game specific basis
- Added the color scheme selection to the game specific settings menu for Gameboy games. In addition, the correct CGB colors will be automatically selected for certain games
- Screenshots may now be saved as either PNG or JPEG, with PNG made as the new default
- Added option to use separate saves for patch enabled games, configurable on a per game basis
- Added "Disable FM sound" option for SMS games to per game settings
- Improvements to rendering synchronization


There's the PNG and Gameboy Color stuff as requested, same with the SMS FM disable.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

great. where can I find that?

[Tanooki]

Facebook?
https://www.facebook.com/HyperkinGames

[nusilver]

Hey Tanooki, just wanted to toss this out there: I tried out the Beta 4 firmware a few days ago (haven't downloaded 5 yet) and the Mother 3 UPS patch worked like a charm on my JP cartridge. That said, apparently the repro cart wasn't the issue, because I still can't hit combos in battle to save my life. Looks like it's just an emulation issue with the game itself... no idea how they'd fix that other than using a different emulator. Hope that gets sorted eventually since Mother 3 is my all-time favorite RPG