The hypocrisy of 'reproductions'

[Tanooki]

One thing that has really fascinated me is the warez culture that has seeped into the classic gaming hobby and how it did it. Since the times of the famicom there have been pirates making multicarts or converting games from one format to another for the masses on the cheap (like FDS SMB2j made into a Famicom cart.) In more recent years with the flourishing of rom availability and the ever cheaper point of entry into making chop shop boards, new boards, shells and labels the word reproduction as become the new love word for piracy to feel better about it. You will find people all over ebay and places like NintendoAge among others shoveling games with stolen translations, peddling prototypes, and pulling games from other regions maybe even in english and moving those too. The true and only real reproductions are few and far between such as what Piko did with his licensing of Super Noah's Ark among others, and he's caught flack from collectors because he's supposedly polluting the pond and ruining the value of the original.

Somehow it seems to have become the accepted culture of the NTSC-U region to be perfectly ok with shitting in everyone else's backyard but its own. There seems to be a pretty pushy, threatening and verbally harassing environment if you try and take a game from our region and make a dupe, and there even has been one equally so of trying to take a high dollar US title and make it PAL (Earthbound.) Yet if someone will take a PAL game like Terranigma, or use a stolen translation for Secret of Mana 2 or Gimmick and shove it on a US board with a new label, somehow this is doing a public service and is very welcome. I personally don't understand it on why it's ok to do it depending where the game came from other than it's all about the benjamins and nothing more.

Personally I'd love an infinitelives board put to use and get a copy of Little Samson or Aerofighters as I love those games, but I can't and won't attempt to afford hundreds for some ROM on an old board which is silly. Some will tell you to buy a piracy device to load the ROMS which is pretty ironic. Ask at certain collector sites, that'll get you a ban because you're instantly evil for peddling bogus goods and making deceiving carts and labels that can confuse people who don't know better. But make something from any old Japanese or PAL title and it's kosher. Pure hypocrisy in my book and nothing more than that.

[8-Bit Archeology]

I wasnt a big fan of any game that is not an original release. Then I found out that someone translated Labyrinth for the nes and put a gorgeous label on it.

I bought it and enjoy it a lot.

My biggest thing is I HATE people who try to sell convincing bootlegs as originals for original prices. The most common right now is the Pokemon gba games and Cheetah Men 2 sealed for nes.

Its the same in the coin collecting world. All these fakes are beeing put to auction a little below average price as a buy it now, hoping someone wont read or notice the fine print and buy it on an impulse.

Im fine with translations. I myself just dont burn disks or use emulators. Its not my thing.

I do look forward to getting a few homebrews like the 2 zelda titles modded for nes. Or mother 3 for gba.

Basically, I dont care what others do with retro stuff as long as no one is trying to scam me. It doesnt hurt developers as they have long since made their money on these games.

Also a word I avoid like the plague.

COPY

I hate that word as it is always misused in the gaming world. Instead of saying I have 3 mario land 2 games, youll hear I have 3 copies of mario land 2.

[Flojomojo]

reproduction = bootleg = copy = counterfeit

Personally, I don't see the appeal of wrapping a 100K ROM in a mess of plastic, ESPECIALLY if you're selling it to an "enthusiast."

[Rickstilwell1]

To me it just looks like a game of pretending these games came out in your country when they really didn't. Functionally you can play all the translations on a flash cart or emulator, but some people just like to pretend the game came out in physical form in that format. Some people feel weird about holes in series. Like they want to put a faked US cart of Final Fantasy V in between their Final Fantasy II and III carts on Super Nintendo. I would say reproductions are just a novelty item.

Counterfeits of existing games are mainly bad because they make it harder to tell the difference between them and the originals. I don't care if a bunch of repros that are made with newly manufactured shells causes the price of the original to go down though. I would rather ALL games be cheap and have as little value as possible. I buy games to enjoy their presence and play or display them. Not to make them a monetary investment. I want all originals though whenever possible but some people would actually be ok with fakes if they bought them just to play them. They just need to make the fakes easily distinguishable from the real deal so people who want one or the other can easily make their choice and also not price them as high.

Repro cartridges and clone consoles should really go hand in hand.

What I don't like is the process of people sacrificing existing games to make their repros. Everyone should be doing what Retrozone does and make their own shells. Leave the cheap games alone for people who want to buy cheap games and actually play them as they are. One of these days every sports title is going to be $50 each because they'll all be used up to make repros. Some of those sports games are actually pretty good. WTF are you cutting up a really good game like Kirby's Adventure? What is wrong with you? lol


Oh yeah and you also have to learn to not care about any flack anyone gives you for what you think. I could care less about what Tanooki here thinks whether I'm on their side or on the other side. I have my own opinion and I would feel no less about it if the OP here disagrees with my opinion. That's how the OP needs to feel about people at NA. Use my care less of you as a template for a care less of them and tell 'em I sent ya cause I'm a member there too. Then I'll have only two letters to give them if they message me: Capital F, Capital U lol.

[Tanooki]

I don't hold you being a member of that collectors site against you, you're fine. I pretty much agree with your thread and I detest chop shop games. The carts that I do have aside from a pair of SNES games (one which is unavoidable being starfox2) are all new parts entirely. I'd be happy too if the values of the games cratered back to where they were just 5 years ago a well. I just don't like the hypocrisy of being ok with some warez(repros) and not others just because of the region.

I've got 3 retrozone games and 2 new parts GBA titles as well, all fun but as you said, they're novelties.

[Richter Belmount]

I think that they are a double edged sword in the market. Its probably better if people buy flash memory carts to play games on their system that never got released in their country and language , but sometimes its nice to have the convience of a repro cart granted if its not to expensive I have a star ocean , sweet home and ff 3 nes cart myself. But yeah the dubious stuff is making repros of things that were originally released in the states. Like if you go to reddit/r/snes so many people get dupped into purchasing fake earthbounds thats its hilarious and sad at the same time. They are a good service for titles that never got released its good for playing purpose but I understand where your coming from I dont think they should be treated like collector items at all. Its like purchasing a original vhs tape over a bootleg copy of the original released tape.

[Gameguy]

Like if you go to reddit/r/snes so many people get dupped into purchasing fake earthbounds thats its hilarious and sad at the same time.

Or buying "complete" copies of games that were never sold with boxes originally. I remember seeing an auction for a "complete" copy of Super Mario All-Stars+Super Mario World ending past $200 on ebay when you can buy the new boxes directly for just $15.

It's why I'm not fully for reproduction boxes. It's easy to get duped unless you really do a lot of research to know what's real and what never got a legit release. At least it's easy to know with items that never were made but stuff like replacement labels are just too difficult to detect unless you're seeing it in person.

If you really want to play a game on a console get a flash cart/disk copier or use CD-Rs. No reason to buy bootlegs unless they're cheap, and really just something of interest to display.

[badinsults]

The thing that really gets me about reproductions is that the people making them have a complete disregard for the makers of translation patches. Most of the people who made the translations explicitly state that their work is not to be bundled with a legit copy of the game, patched or not. They also explicitly state that no one should sell their work. Another problem is that a lot of repro makers cannibalize other games to make them, which is completely unnecessary now that homebrew lockout chips exist. Some of the makers of patches have attempted to shut down the repro makers, but there are simply too many to deal with.

Besides, most reproductions are completely unnecessary with the advent of flash carts.

[Tanooki]

Lots of good points badinsults. I cant stand when someone chop shops a game. The one lately Ive seen most common is killing Return of the Joker for Gimmick since that game cant take another board and the one sunsoft batman game isnt exactly mass produced like a mega man game or something. I never much liked stealing others translation work either given the time involved as its not the same as the old dead game as its recent. People making such things should give a kick back to each copy sold to the person or group who did the labor.

[Richter Belmount]

Well of course who approves of them chopping a perfectly good original game for a different one? I guess I dont mind if its like retrousb selling tales of phantasia and star ocean boards/carts they made themselves or people without sacrificing something else. I hope Watermelon team and super fighter team produces new stock cause I love their work Pier Solar , Nightmare Busters etc.

[megasdkirby]

The one lately Ive seen most common is killing Return of the Joker for Gimmick since that game cant take another board and the one sunsoft batman game isnt exactly mass produced like a mega man game or something.

Ok, now this angers me. I know I may be biased since I personally loved Return of the Joker, but to basically kill the game in order to put another ROM is just damn wrong. The game isn't all that easy to come across to begin with, and now I hear this. Simply fucking incredible.

I don't mind a reproduction of a unreleased prototype, but like badinsults stated, there is simply no need to butcher a cart if anyone can play it through flash carts. At least those who wish to release these repros should do their own chipset and board.

This really pisses me off.

[Ozzy_98]

I never much liked stealing others translation work either given the time involved as its not the same as the old dead game as its recent. People making such things should give a kick back to each copy sold to the person or group who did the labor.

No one making carts is making money off it, so there isn't exactly much to share. $25 for 30-60 mins of burning and putting together plus printing supplies is a heck of a deal, and the ones who want more don't stay in business long, or offer other treats. And finding some groups is a pain if they're even still around. And still others (Nightwolve), I wouldn't give that bastard anything. He did his projects just to show off and be a bigshot. Not that I'm bitter or dislike that guy, ooh noes, not me.

As for eating carts, that's bugged me, same with moding old hardware to add better video. If it's reversible though that's different, and reproductions ARE reversible, I just with more people would start velcroing or taping the old roms into the cart so they can be resoldered on later if need-be.

[Gentlegamer]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/in...?topic=10775.0

[Tanooki]

I'm not a fan of old cart murder either and have called it chop shopping a game for awhile now. I'm ok if it's new parts, almost anything I have is that, but admittedly I do have a murdered stunt race turned Star Fox 2, but what are you going to do, there's no reproduction FX chip out there I'm aware of other than some day the SD2SNES whenever they figure out how to get that to go on their FPGA chip they're using. Yet, given that thing costs like $250 that's no really worth it just for Starfox 2 either.

That Batman ROTJ mess has gone on for a long time well before retrousb or infinitelives printed their own boards and it was found using various sources to be the only US cart with a specific set of chips to support is, so that somewhat uncommon game got greased to make Gimmick carts. It sucks, but when people have played games jamming the price of it up into the hundreds for a loose cart (famicom) I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I know people don't make a killing off the carts, at least not in theory. Some do though who just peddle them as just another game on ebay because there if someone doesn't clearly state the obvious they go for a lot more money than $25~ as I've seen SNES games top out like double to triple that or more and that's more than enough profit motivation right there. I get someone can hate or like this group/person or that, but I still find it dirty not to send a kickback even if it's a lousy buck to them if they're able to be found but that's just me.


That stuff from the ex-Sunsoft employee is pretty interesting as a mix of some really interesting inside stories and the known BS that Nintendo pulled contrasted into it.

[Gameguy]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/in...?topic=10775.0

That stuff from the ex-Sunsoft employee is pretty interesting as a mix of some really interesting inside stories and the known BS that Nintendo pulled contrasted into it.

It's interesting, but I'm not sure if his accounts are 100% accurate. Mainly because I noticed something he said.

Aero never did make it to a Nintendo platform until I redeveloped it years later with Atomic Planet for the Gameboy Advance system.

Did he forget that Aero 1 and 2 were released on the Super Nintendo? He created the concept of the game and worked on it first hand, even owning the rights to the property. I can't understand how he could forget what platforms his game was released on when he apparently remembers so much else in great detail.

[Edmond Dantes]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/in...?topic=10775.0

I just read up on that, and I noticed something odd.

He claims Aero the Acro-Bat "never appeared on a Nintendo platform until the GBA" Umm... bullshit? Both the games and the Zero spinoff appeared on SNES, in fact it was even hyped that the SNES Aero 1 had a new mode-7 special stage. These are some of the most common games for the platform so don't tell me they don't exist.

If anyone is a member of that forum can you please ask dude about that?

[Gentlegamer]

I brought up the Aero discrepancy, we'll see what he replies.

[Edmond Dantes]

Unfortunately it looks like the question is gonna get buried... but we'll see what happens.

Hope he's even still there. It's possible that he thought Aero was a Genesis exclusive but there was a last-minute decision he wasn't aware of to put it on the SNES. (I kinda feel the Genesis version is superior personally).

[Tanooki]

Perhaps just bring it up another time until it's answered. I think it's a good question.

[Daria]

The thing that really gets me about reproductions is that the people making them have a complete disregard for the makers of translation patches. Most of the people who made the translations explicitly state that their work is not to be bundled with a legit copy of the game, patched or not. They also explicitly state that no one should sell their work.

This x1000

Translations don't materialize out of thin air.