Originally Posted by Tanooki
So... is the point of this thread to redefine irony?
Can we now just agree that both sides get too defensive, and just agree to disagree?
So... is the point of this thread to redefine irony?
Can we now just agree that both sides get too defensive, and just agree to disagree?
Last edited by MidnightRider; 10-27-2014 at 08:18 PM.
Wasn't Final Fight also a launch title or close to it? Not the greatest port ever, but still generally liked in its time and even today. And while the slowdown in Gradius III is undeniable, it's still a very good and well-respected game. Most gamers seem to prefer the SNES port over the arcade original. I'm sure nostalgia is part of that, but the arcade original is also ridiculously, unfairly cheap.
Since they seemed so consumed with shmups, I assume they also played Super R-Type, Darius Twin, and U.N. Squadron. Super R-Type also has a lot of slowdown, although the R-Type games are pretty slow and methodical to begin with, so maybe they were complaining because of that too. I've never played Darius Twin or U.N. Squadron, so I don't know if those have noticeable slowdown or flicker. I do know that U.N. Squadron is pretty highly regarded either way.
I think most retro shmup fans these days would agree that the SNES wasn't an amazing system for the genre (and the weaker processor was certainly a significant factor in that) and that the Genesis and TG-16/PC Engine were superior for fans of the genre. But for those editors to seemingly think that the systems would live and die by shmups is beyond silly. Yes, the genre was probably at the height of its popularity in the late 80s/early 90s, but still, waaaaay more people were buying a SNES for Super Mario World than Gradius III.
And to be completely honest, almost all of my favorites on Genesis came out later than '91, while the first few months of SNES releases includes some of my all-time favorites. Call me a diehard SNES fan, but I'd honestly take that line-up over the first two years of the Genesis, if I had to choose. Castlevania IV, ActRaiser, Super Mario World, the early years of the Genesis can't top stuff like that.
Gentlegamer: I think it probably was, or at least the largest contributor outside of scheming lying Genesis advertising on tv to rip on Nintendo to sell their shit. Remember the old ad of how slow the SNES was because they all went at a crawl like Mario Kart and then showing blast processed Sonic showed how bad the hardware really was? Or how about a few months into the SNES having 2 tvs, 2 systems, and a stack of 5 games versus 200 or whatever saying only one had games and support. It was a combined effort of lies and manipulation. Those ads and EGM alone put me off even touching a Sega Genesis or a controller attached to it until well into the 90s fairly close to when the DC launched it infuriated me that much. It wasn't a fanboy thing even if I grew up with Nintendo, even as a kid lying ads just pissed me the hell off because it seemed if someone had to be a shithead in an ad to sell a product, the product probably had nothing good to say about it since that couldn't be used to sell it. I got a list of things I've refused to ever use or didn't for years just because of lie ads.
The SNES did have at launch just F-Zero, Mario(in box), Pilotwings, Sim City and Gradius when it arrived day one late in August. September gave it 9 more games with notables of UN Squadron and Final Fight in there. October had just Ys3 and Ultraman. November had 9 more games with ActRaiser, Final Fantasy II, Super Ghouls n Ghosts and Darius Twin in there. And then December 1991 (this is all pulled from the wikipedia) had 7 more games with Super Castlevania really being only worth mentioning. Sure I threw in October to fill the spot, but look at how many games there that are revered by people as the best of the system came out within 4 months of launch that had out 32 games by 12/31/91. Yet somehow the SNES was slow, choppy, graphics drop out, nothing worthwhile, should pack it in if that's the best it can do. EGM -- Exaggeration Gaming Monthly is the name I gave it after that shitty review and all their garbage after until my sub expired.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...t_System_games (sorted by the NA release date box.)
Sega's '90s marketing really put me off too. It's a shame that they probably lost customers because of how immature and mean-spirited they got in the ads, although I guess they probably gained customers too with people they could convince that Nintendo was lame. I don't know if it really worked out that well for them, though, considering Nintendo took back the American industry lead in '94, I believe, and they did it just by making ads like "Hey, check out this new cool cutting-edge game we've got!" (like with Star Fox and Donkey Kong Country and what have you). Then again, by that point, Sega was stretching themselves thin with floundering add-ons, which gave Nintendo a window of opportunity.
To be fair, this is one of EGM's buyer's guide issues. Also, this buyer's guide issue is from the early 90s. NES by then was basically done for so they gave the scores accordingly to what was coming out for the system which was basically filler games. SNES was still new so there wasn't much out there for the system while the Genesis/Mega Drive had been out for a couple years at that point so the scores were the highest. EGM was a great magazine though throughout the 90s.Speaking of EGM bias, I had forgotten how anti-Nintendo the editors were.
Last edited by GhostDog; 10-28-2014 at 02:59 AM.
Let me fix that for you a bit.
EGM was a great magazine though throughout the 90s...if you liked the Japanese coverage or were a Sega Genesis and Sony Playstation owner.
If you supported other stuff, and particularly Nintendo, they were dicks.
Aussie: I can honestly say those ads had me never buy a solitary Sega game brand new where they got paid on it, system too, until 3 weeks after the Dreamcast came out when I bought one. They kept me from giving them a single penny for almost a decade just with their sleazy advertising tactics. Just the same as EGM after getting it for 2 years they in that second year turned into print blowjob material for Sega and Sony so I never gave them any money again either, even after having my parents cancel the sub with like 3mo left in the second year, EGM kept sending stuff off and on though most of the 90s with letters to try again and ignored it. I was amazed how desperate they had to be to send years worth for free.
I love the old mags because of all the rumors that never materialized. Stuff like the Atari Panther, the mythic Saturn that would also play 32X and/or Genesis games, all the rumored Mortal Kombat secret characters who never materialized in real life...those were great times. Also, I think the notion that Sega's advertising "lost" them customers is only held by people who were emotionally invested in the "console war" to begin with. If you were a kid arguing with people regularly on the school playground and such about the superiority of SNES vs Genesis it may have pissed you off, but you gotta remember a large chunk of Genesis buyers were older, usually casual, gamers who just wanted to play stuff like Madden or Super Monaco GP. Sega was far from the only company using "edgy" advertising to attract teens and college kids at the time, and usually the tactic worked well. It's also not like Nintendo never went negative, either...
Last edited by FrankSerpico; 10-28-2014 at 10:44 AM.
Not everyone. I take the attitude with any product that straight lies about their competition to make a buck instead of talking their good points up instead. It's not like I ever stayed away from Sega or Sony, when they got over themselves then I invested. And I also don't recall Nintendo straight lying in their ads to make sales, instead they just tweaked wording with stuff to psyche up people more to buy their junk and all the merchandise around it. Another classic one is the old Coke vs Pepsi thing, we had them both in the house, but with all the scumbag ads Pepsi ran in the 80s/90s I never would drink the stuff and ultimately never could get used to the taste because of it either yet I'm fine with the product they don't scam about like their sierra mist and mug rootbeer stuff. To date if a store has only pepsi products I won't drink the coke ripoff.
Out of curiosity, what lies about Nintendo are we talking about? I'm trying to think back and I'm not coming up with anything concrete.
I'll admit it's a bit fuzzy as it was like 20 years ago when it comes to print which I do recall being in those comic books I had. I do remember the nintendon't TV spots which were annoying being spammed in prime time tv though. Comparing Mario Kart to Sonic calling the SNES a slow piece of junk that won't cut it (had they run Death Valley Rally against it most people wouldn't have seen the speed difference.) Crapping on the library saying it had none, when while it was only out like 4 months with a few dozen games the stuff there percentage wise was higher quality stuff for the price. I'm sure most of it could easily be dug up using youtube or some google searching.
Sorry but you're wrong on that one. I never was invested in the "console war". I never once argued "SNES vs Genesis" with anyone. I don't even recall knowing any kids with a Genesis. I mean, I'm sure some kids had, but I wasn't trying to seek them out. I just didn't care or think about Sega at all generally; they were off my radar. I had a negative view of Sega, as a company, because of the ads, but that's about it. Even considering actually owning a Sega system was pointless because there was no way I'd be able to have two systems in the same gen. I had to buy my SNES myself as it was, and I was only able to get a new game on Christmas or my birthday or with money I saved up from said special occasions.
Nintendo used "edgy" advertising, yeah, no doubt about that. Their fondness for 90s gross-out humor in the mid-90s was off-putting too (just compare the ads in Nintendo Power prior to '94/'95 to those that came out later; I can still see that dumb jar of toenail clippings in my head), but their strategy was generally not to even acknowledge the existence of the competition. Like, I believe it was in '93, Nintendo Power started this "sports column" that was an extremely obvious counter to the Genesis's reputation for being the superior system for sports game fans, yet they tiptoed around the subject like crazy. They never once actually called Sega or the Genesis out by name, more like it was a desperate plea of "Look at how many sports games we have! Look at how many are on the horizon! We have tons of great sports games!" Maybe there are some exceptions to Nintendo's advertising prior to the mid-'90s, but I honestly can't think of a single example that called out the competition. Once the N64 generation rolled around, then it was a different story. They still weren't quite as extreme as Sega got, but then you had stuff like the Star Fox 64 promo video that portrayed Sega and Sony teaming up to steal Nintendo's ideas, with Sony portrayed as a conniving scuzzy bastard and Sega as a bumbling doofus.
As for the number of titles, at the time the ad was placed and probably for the duration of that particular ad (the games stacked up side by side with the Genesis side being a tower of titles) Sega WAS right-Nintendo didn't have the software compared to them. There was no lie and even with games coming out in a few months, there would be no way the SNES would get such an extensive library.
Was the ad combative-oh yes very much so but then again that was the atmosphere of ads back then. From the benign (the "bitter beer" commercials come to mind where a man's face practically sucks itself inward) to mildly combative (Hefty Sinch Sack vs "wimpy wimpy wimpy") to even where the ad picks on the consumer (Neo Geo's hot dog ad comes to mind)- it could be rough. Even going back to the golden age of gaming Atari, Intellivision and the like would go at each other's throats. A little more gentile in some ads but nonetheless they were combative.
I don't recall that speed comparison so I'll have to do some diving.
Don't forget the poking Sega did to the Game Boy....
Actually I did, and now I vaguely remember it I have to go look why it was annoying. I think it was one of those captain obvious things where it was pea green vs color, despite the color being washed out/blown out and a 3 hour battery life against like 25hours. I remember the Hefty ads, cute but annoying, it wasn't really a lie nor did they name people they crapped on specifically as they stuck with the brand x/other guys generic looking bag so it didn't get borderline personal.
The speed ad was a crap TV with Mario Kart on the demo loop running and showing the title of the game on a back platform to a really busted up crappy little go cart I think farting out a bunch of smoke. Then you had sonic blowing full speed all over the place around it talking how one system could do everything and was super fast and the other one was out of date, slow, sucked. We all know in hardware the Genesis for raw CPU power was faster, but parts/performance wise (especially to the target market) the SNES was superior otherwise so the implication was pretty crappy.
Found the snes ad, looks like a busted ice cream truck coughing smoke showing Mario Kart -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K03fQKkN7VI
Damnit now I remember how angry I got as a kid at this ad for the Gameboy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l--fbYi_oKg It appears since I had a Gameboy, I had an IQ of 12, couldn't see in color, and was as smart as a dog for wanting it over a game gear. That was a real fuck you ad in every term of the words. There was also the follow up of the horribly fat loser who beats himself with roadkill to see color on Gameboy which was dumb - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVL3uW9uV4E&NR=1
Also I was a giant loser for owning the SNES too because I didn't pay for a cheaper system with everything being super fast and sonic on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7meLcpdfpxY And I supposedly paid $10 more for SNES games than on Sega and was a sucker for it -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJPUPimof-Y&NR=1 (Lies too unless stores did it on purpose.)
At least Sega ultimately made fools of themselves for poking at Nintendo for not making a bunch of addon devices, we know how that played out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-AW...eature=related I always found this one funny even then because the FMV looked terrible compared to what my computer did for awhile already and they were cute and for once stopped talking price since that Sega CD got expensive with the Genesis on top. But at the same time it was infuriating, when you were told buying a Nintendo was a total waste and apologizing that we wasted our money and that they were happy to burn it(SNES) because it sucked - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0McRNynPuj8
Last edited by Tanooki; 10-28-2014 at 06:20 PM.
Starring Randy, from My Name is Earl.
The funny thing about when Sega showed specific Nintendo games is that they often were good games, like Super Mario Kart and Super Mario Land. If you're gonna try to make Nintendo look bad, at least show an actual bad game.
I remember Game Gear commercials being even more distasteful than the Genesis commercials. Probably because there was more desperation to make the Game Boy look bad since it was creaming the Game Gear, even with weaker technology. Probably my most hated Sega commercial ever is the one made after Nintendo launched the Play It Loud series of Game Boys, which were just new colors for the same old system. Sure, it was just a marketing stunt by Nintendo to make an old system look exciting and new again, but the Game Gear commercial had a Game Boy dressed up in doll clothes and they were making fun of it. I get the underlying message that Nintendo was just dressing up the same old hardware, but something about the commercial, on top of the usual immaturity and spitefulness, came off rather sexist. :/ Good job, Sega of America, just dig your hole even deeper.
And I felt like they got even more desperate once Sony entered the market and they directed their childishness at both competitors and desperately tried to dig their way out of last place. Launching a N64 off a skeet shoot and blasting it mid-air, dropping a PlayStation off a skyscraper, it was all just really dumb and had no effect on me besides making me roll my eyes. Meanwhile Japan had the Segata Sanshiro campaign which I love. Really, if you ask me, the entire duration of Sega as a hardware manufacturer, Sega of America was led with incompetency. The only reason they were on top for a short while is a combination of luck (like having the early release of the Genesis work in their favor, which didn't go as well with the Saturn and Dreamcast) and by virtue of having a lot of good games on the Genesis.
As I recall, EGM wasn't very favorable towards the Saturn, either.
And speaking of insults, who can forget Sony's "If you are buying a Saturn, your head must be in Uranus".
Ouch.
Sega Saturn USB DataLink - www.GamingEnterprisesInc.com
From a marketing standpoint it's a solid gamble. We're talking pre-internet days where you only see the game in pictures mostly, if in action, maybe a demo tape or display in a store, friend or rental. To lie about the good stuff today would be suicidal and you'd get so called out on the crap and ruined for it within a few hours. Back then to scheme against the top tier SNES games and angle shots, play games, lie about it, it would work as people would just see a turd against something amazing and drink that kool aid.
I don't remember the doll ad, maybe regional? That would have been infuriating as around that time I'd have understood what they were lying about and just been pissed at it for the reasons you listed there. I just got over it after awhile back then and just chose to ignore they ever existed, made all the more easy by canceling EGM and having to read their insufferable lies and bending of the truth to be pro-Sega too. If Sega would have run a relatively clean ad run like Nintendo did showing community (the big mario mob into the planet), the game itself (various), goofy nerds or kids doing junk (zelda ad) and the others I would have never felt poorly about them and probably bought one. I remember their spitefulness with Sony, it was even more vile considering how Sony hosed them they wanted outright revenge with them popping out earlier, then lying (to Sega) about the price to pop up $100 cheaper and with real 3D performing hardware, not a 3D generated in software with a weaker more pricey box. Sega knew they were up shit creek and went evil. I didn't mind it so because Sony didn't even really bother with them, after the N64 doing well just in its first year they went and permanently smeared their good name as the crap of the past and the 'kiddie box' which stuck with them through the Wii where they (Nintendo) wrecked their own image without any outside help.
Sega got on top for only two reasons and it didn't last. Like the MS-360 they jumped out first at a fair price and being first you get all the technophile kids and some adults back then. Secondarily, their sleezy ads against the NES which were accurate (it was out of date) and then their bold face lies with the SNES and insults with that one and Gameboy owners being dog brained peons worked for a time until they really turned people off of them. Nintendo finally getting their act together over 1-2 years later finally inched into the lead and had better wares to prove it and they got popped with finally Sony smoking them into the grave.
I wish I could find that commercial with the doll clothes, but doing some light searching for Game Gear commercials, I'm mostly just coming up with the dog commercial and the squirrel one. If I remember correctly they had a grey Game Boy in a skirt and blouse (or maybe it was just a dress, I don't know), and they were making it out to be wimpy or girly or whatever. I think they may have even called it a "Game Girl". As a female gamer, them making the Game Boy out to be feminine for whatever strange reason and inferior for being such just pissed me the hell off. I would guess that were probably more female gamers playing Nintendo systems than Genesis systems in those days, and sexist shit like that certainly wasn't going to convince any to give the Game Gear a try.
Well, from a marketing standpoint SoJ may have had the edge (in your opinion, as I've said regardless of whether they offended fanboys or not, their American ad campaign was quite successful overall), but their ideas about hardware and software were downright stupid in many instances. They ignored the success of American-developed first party games like Comix Zone and Kid Chameleon, they ignored the suggestions from SoA about making the Saturn backward compatible, they rushed the DC to launch in Japan and lost a ton of money thanks to Sonic Adventure being the only game anyone wanted in their JP launch line-up, and really that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think history has shown SoJ bears the most blame for Sega's failure as a console manufacturer.
Posting Permissions
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Similar agreements apply to other advertising or affiliate programs such as those from eBay, Google, etc.
Copyright © 1991 - Present of Digital Press. All rights reserved.
Reply With Quote
