Will "legit" ownership of digital games be a reality in the next decade ?

[WCP]

Right now, if you think you "own" a digital game, you're mistaken. At least in the world of consoles.

I don't think you can "own" something, if you can't sell it. If you can't give it away to a relative. If you can't let your buddy borrow it for a weekend.

In the world of console gaming, we don't really "own" the digital games in our library. It's more like a lease. We are "allowed" to use the game under certain circumstances.

In the world of PC, there is a bit more freedom with this. For the most part, it's the same as consoles, but some companies sell DRM free software (GOG), which you could theoretically sell to somebody else or give to somebody else. Steam has their game sharing thing, but it pales in comparison to true ownership of a physical game.

(Yeah, yeah, I know, even the physical games we don't technically "own", instead we have a license, blah, blah, blah)


All I know is that I recently bought Shadow of Mordor for the PS4, and I bought a physical copy that I can sell off to somebody else when I'm done with it, if I so choose. Or maybe give it to my nephew who has a PS4. That's legit ownership. I'm free to sell the game on Ebay or Craigslist. I'm free to donate the game to the Salvation Army if I so choose.

Real Ownership.


Will it ever happen for closed system consoles from Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony ? What about Steam, will they ever do it ?


Seems the only digital downloads that you actually own are the DRM free downloads you can get from GOG. Nothing else that I know of exists.

[Flojomojo]

It seems like DRM is starting to get a little more comfortable as certain aspects are loosed up. Apple and Amazon allow family sharing, and are updating their software to make this simpler. Sony's cross-buy and cross-play is similarly consumer friendly, and for me, the convenience of buying digitally far outweighs the benefit of being able to sell a disk for pennies on the dollar. Disney is bridging purchases of their stuff (which is a huge catalog if you have kids) between Google and Apple stores. This is a big deal because those digital stores are no longer islands locking you in. Steam has great streaming and offline options. I'd much rather have a PC game in Steam than on some installer disc with a serial number, ugh.

I'm at the point where I trust cloud storage for my purchases ... and even if there's a very occasional glitch (usually because of incompatibility between old software and new hardware/OS), there's plenty of other stuff to play/watch/read.

I like GOG too, but please don't take their lack of enforcement as encouragement to pirate games. They're so cheap to start with, it's best for all for your friends to get their own copies.

<quote>Can I enjoy my purchases both on my laptop and desktop computer at home?
Yes. We do not limit the number of installations or reinstallations, as long as you install your purchased games on computers in your household. So yeah, if you've got a render-farm in the basement, you might actually break the world record for the number of legal Witcher installations in one household. However, if you think about installing your game on a friend's machine or sharing it with others then please don't do it, okay?</quote>

I have little interest in flipping stuff on the secondhand market, if that's what is meant by "ownership." I think that's going away, and I won't miss it.

[Tanooki]

The shortest possible answer is 'Likely never.'

You got it, we buying stuff like that buy a temporary pass to use the digital item in question, we don't own anything and have no value in our money either due to that as you can't share, exchange or give it away. It's why (not sure if it bothers some or not, don't care either) I call digital downloads not that but digital rentals. You're renting to use the game, it's just that you're not going to blockbuster, you just get it without taking your ass off the chair/couch and that's that.

As I've had it explained to me the future of gaming as the industry wants it, more third party than first, but if the console makers want games they'll have to do it is the following. When the US and EU markets catch up with the Asians and gigabit connections are a nationally(more or less) standard, that wave of consoles and handhelds will have no 'media' drives on them at all, period. They will close up shop entirely with printing houses for discs, plastic cases, and the rest, other than for maybe a premium box (toy box stuff as it is now) with a voucher code within. The industry on the entire whole feels that they're correct on their path of how they budget games, the thin margins they play russian roulette with, and because many are faltering or failing it's not their fault, WE ARE TO BLAME. Directly, we supposedly as second hand gamers are putting them out of business. They want to take down all physical mediums so they can control the prices the entire life of the system, sales, maybe never do a sale, whatever -- their call alone. The argument they'll make to those pissed at $60 games is that the going rate now would be cut in half on average (some a little less or more $20-40?) when you pay through the console. They figure forcing people to digitally rent their games they don't have to compete any longer with used game shops or gamefly/redbox like rental services so all that so called lost money they will get back and can then charge that much less on a game.

This came from my brother the game producer who is a third party to the three big fish in the current console pond so I believe it. He makes fun of me when I say I'd stop buying games when I don't own them anymore and he called me out of touch since he's been drinking that kool-aid. I told him to fuck off I'd buy from GoG.com and others who let me keep a copy of the medium and stick with old games as I've got tens of thousands of options which he grumbled at. (boo hoo)

I personally consider it a combination of scapegoating and blatant lying. There's zero motivation to drop a $60 game to $30 because physical media is gone. They'll have people used to paying those rates from the period of discs/cards, so there's no motive to drop it which would widen their profits by quite a bit.

So no, they will never let us again own our games once they shift to a console with that particular setup. Places (GOOD!) like Gamestop will be driven out of business who cater to current gen used games as a major revenue source. We will be trapped clicking to pay with credit cards or 'points' cards. And if your game is a piece of shit, you're stuck with it until they revoke the license. That is the other worry, games can vanish or be erased out from under you in this environment and has happened. I had the dotemu SMS conversion of Govellius on iOS, bought it about 2 years ago. About 6mo ago they were forced to stop selling it, they removed it off the Apple Store + off my device and everyone else's who didn't jailbreak/steal it. This has happened in the past with Amazon on the early Kindles with (irony!) Orwell's 1984, they lost rights in a dispute, erased everyones books via wifi off their accounts (which they got sued for and lost thankfully.)

[Zthun]

Will it ever happen for closed system consoles from Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony ? What about Steam, will they ever do it ?

Seems the only digital downloads that you actually own are the DRM free downloads you can get from GOG. Nothing else that I know of exists.

It's actually impossible to do. If everything was DRM free then only once copy needs to be sold and everyone else can just get a free copy off the internet or from their friend. I've been trying to dream up a solution to this, but there doesn't seem to be any without some form of invasive technology.

The only possible solution is free to play, and you see how those games go.

In all honestly, I'm on the side of digital games. They're much more convenient and easier to move around with. The downside is the DRM as you have stated. Humble Bundle, Steam, and GoG make them affordable as well, so I think it's worth it.

[Tanooki]

That is the perk, PC side, you get stuff cheap. Console makers aren't into doing that though if you look at the prices, hell even the prices of stuff on PSN vs PC is usually more too flat or how sales are engaged.

I'm a big supporter of GoG in how they do it, and Steam secondarily since while you have to use Steam if they ever went under/quit set their app up so it can be detached and those games can be independent like GoG stuff.

[8-Bit Archeology]

Okay maybe a teensy bit off topic. But If I have say Windwaker HD installed on my Wii-u or I have the disk. In my eyes I can't see past my Wii u crashing and failing someday. But if I had the disk who would care about the Wii u. I could buy another console and enjoy it again. But without physical media, you can't keep anything that looses support.

If in the future the Wii u is taken offline for the Nintendo super Wii or what have you. Then I can no longer replace my game for my console.

I hope IMO albeit a twisted opinion, that digital games die off in some catastrophic failure. Only because, owning something should be as simple as keeping a game on a shelf. Not keeping passwords and codes and hoping your consoles last forever.

I lost my mass effect 2 content including the dumb little Dr.pepper cap items. I had all of my passwords and ids. Yet EA and Bioware said sorry about your luck. It never showed up on my purchase history or anything. I didnt even get to play the DLC that I PAYED FOR.

I know that's biased and rude simply because I got screwed over for about 30 bucks of content. But hey my money bought me all of my games. And to everyone who looks at me wondering why I hate digital download games, all I have to say is, I may buy more XBox 360's but I'll never have to rebuy my games.

[Tanooki]

Actually that IS on topic. You're making the best example ever through the way Nintendo does their shady stuff. I find it worse a bit as it's not even a digital only choice, this one you blindly buy the wrong copy of the game assuming you're safe, yet the real copy you didn't buy would have been.

Wind Waker HD DISC
Wind Waker HD Digital

Both $60.

Nintendo network policies, if your system is lost, stolen, or otherwise missing, you have a good chance of never getting your purchases back because despite the independent NNID they have setup, the games are still bound to the hardware with some security handshake. They could move it over, if they feel it is worth doing, but by their own rules they're not bound to, so hope you get a friendly, and in the life of the WiiU. What if the system dies in a decade and you want to play it, but your game is stuck on their broken hardware? You're f'd. Buy another system, by that time, warez the hell out of it and steal it as Nintendo won't honor your money. But, had you not wanted the pretty triforce marked controller and black system and bought the disc, you're good to go, buy a decade old cheap used system and you're set. They also when they're capable of getting at data don't always transfer it even if it's accessible, which is why my WiiU just went to the post office a half hour ago. No one should have to rebuy the same game and on the same system because **"it" happens.

[Zthun]

Okay maybe a teensy bit off topic. But If I have say Windwaker HD installed on my Wii-u or I have the disk. In my eyes I can't see past my Wii u crashing and failing someday. But if I had the disk who would care about the Wii u. I could buy another console and enjoy it again. But without physical media, you can't keep anything that looses support.

If in the future the Wii u is taken offline for the Nintendo super Wii or what have you. Then I can no longer replace my game for my console.

I hope IMO albeit a twisted opinion, that digital games die off in some catastrophic failure. Only because, owning something should be as simple as keeping a game on a shelf. Not keeping passwords and codes and hoping your consoles last forever.

I lost my mass effect 2 content including the dumb little Dr.pepper cap items. I had all of my passwords and ids. Yet EA and Bioware said sorry about your luck. It never showed up on my purchase history or anything. I didnt even get to play the DLC that I PAYED FOR.

I know that's biased and rude simply because I got screwed over for about 30 bucks of content. But hey my money bought me all of my games. And to everyone who looks at me wondering why I hate digital download games, all I have to say is, I may buy more XBox 360's but I'll never have to rebuy my games.

This, of course, is the downside to digital content on a console. The PC transcends generations and you don't really have this problem. You physical media will eventually die as well as it does have a lifespan (corrosion, disc rot, dead batteries, etc). Though the difference is that all your games wouldn't die at once.

[bb_hood]

I have little interest in flipping stuff on the secondhand market, if that's what is meant by "ownership." I think that's going away, and I won't miss it.

Yeah, I agree. It seems to me that that is where most of the real criticism stems from. People want to play the game then resell or people need to have a hard copy with case and manual for the shelf. Personally I dont care about these 2 factors when buying new games. I buy alot of the DLC for Rocksmith and it is totally worth it. Ubisoft is constantly adding more DLC content, its getting to the point where I cant keep up with all the new songs they keep adding. I spend more money on DLC than I do physical games.

If my PS3 dies/crashes and I lose all my downloaded content, I can just download it again.
If the PS3 store goes offline and I cant access my purchased games, that would be worse. Hypothetically I could just get another ps3 harddrive and backup all my purchased games.

Right now, if you think you "own" a digital game, you're mistaken. At least in the world of consoles.

I don't think you can "own" something, if you can't sell it. If you can't give it away to a relative. If you can't let your buddy borrow it for a weekend.

In the world of console gaming, we don't really "own" the digital games in our library. It's more like a lease. We are "allowed" to use the game under certain circumstances.

People make statements like these all the time, and I dont know how accurate they are. I bought a used Wii with 75+ games downloaded to the memory card. All these games play perfectly, and will continue to do so as long as the wii continues to function. I would not consider DLC content being 'leased content' because its not just going to disappear off my system.

[Mayhem]

European courts ruled two years ago that you should not be prevented from selling digital games: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...wnloaded-games .

It's going to take time to implement, but I can't see Europe letting this one drop in general, and probably start putting pressure on in the future given it's been that long since the ruling.

[Tanooki]

I welcome that court decision, but will anyone actually bother to sue these crooks so badly they back off the digital aspect, or would they rather just keep paying settlements.

[WCP]

, and for me, the convenience of buying digitally far outweighs the benefit of being able to sell a disk for pennies on the dollar.

Pennies on the dollar ? I sell my games on Craigslist and get some very good money back for them. No money going to Ebay / Paypal or Gamestop. I sell directly to another gamer. He/She get's the game, and I get a HUGE chunk of my original investment back.

I like GOG too, but please don't take their lack of enforcement as encouragement to pirate games. They're so cheap to start with, it's best for all for your friends to get their own copies.

If I sold a GOG game to somebody else, or gave it to somebody else, I would delete the game off my PC and not play it anymore. I don't expect to get my cake and eat it too.

I have little interest in flipping stuff on the secondhand market, if that's what is meant by "ownership." I think that's going away, and I won't miss it.

Yeah, lots of people don't sell their games on Craigslist, because they feel that it's too much of a hassle or effort, but it's pretty easy for me. I normally will meet the person at a Starbucks like 3 mins from my house, so it's not much effort at all. Plus, sometimes you meet some really cool people that are into the same kinds of games as you.

But, if Craigslist is too much effort, then people should really sell on Ebay, even though Ebay will take 20 percent. You can sell for more on Ebay, so you can kinda make up that 20 percent that they take away, but you have to overcharge to cover all their fees. On Craigslist I can sell the same game much cheaper, and it's owner to new owner with no middle man involved.

[WCP]

People make statements like these all the time, and I dont know how accurate they are. I bought a used Wii with 75+ games downloaded to the memory card. All these games play perfectly, and will continue to do so as long as the wii continues to function. I would not consider DLC content being 'leased content' because its not just going to disappear off my system.

Is the Wii soft-modded ? Were those 75 games purchased by the previous owner ?


if it's legit, then yeah.., that's one of the very few exceptions. If you're willing to buy all your digital games under a certain account, and you're willing to keep that account on the hardware that you sell to somebody else, then, technically you could sell your digital collection, but you'd have to sell it all in one fell swoop. You'd have to sell the hardware and software, in one huge bundle, and you'd have to keep your account on the hard drive so the games would still function. ( At least with 360 / PS3 / PS4 / XBOX 1 ) If you don't have the account on there, then a lot of times the digital games won't work, and sometimes you have to connect to the internet for them to work, and they try to sign in, and if the password has changed then they won't work, but yes, there are some exceptions to the rule, if you're willing to sell your hardware and your entire digital library in one fell swoop. But that's a very, very, very limited form of ownership.

[Leo_A]

I bought a used Wii with 75+ games downloaded to the memory card. All these games play perfectly, and will continue to do so as long as the wii continues to function. I would not consider DLC content being 'leased content' because its not just going to disappear off my system.

As an interesting sidenote just in case you were unaware, you can always transfer this stuff to a Wii U. In fact if you own a Wii with downloads on it already, you can transfer the contents of both to the same Wii U and it will be merged (Just be sure to transfer your original last, if there are any conflicting saves). You don't need any account information since there's no account information to be had.

So not only did you get a good deal (I assume, I don't know what you paid nor what his tastes were), but you don't even have to hope that this used system will be remaining operable for the long haul if you already own a Wii U or perhaps plan to add one in the next couple of years. You could transfer it to Nintendo's current system right now

That is assuming, of course, that these were legitimate purchases rather than installed via the homebrew channel. Also, it might not hurt to check out the purchase history in the Wii Shop and see if everything that has been purchased, is downloaded and installed.

[WCP]

Yeah, I mean, if it's homebrew stuff, (and usually if there are 75 games on the memory card it is homebrew), then that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

If they really are legit purchases, then you certainly got really lucky on that deal, congrats.


Still though, if you have to sell your entire collection of games, along with the hardware, just to be able to sell your games, then that is a very limited and constricted form of ownership.

I know in Sony and Microsoft's world, this method won't work unless you're willing to include the Xbox Live or PSN account along with the sale of your hardware. You'd have to leave that account on the Xbox or Playstation, and you'd have to keep the same password, for games that connect to the internet for whatever reason.

People sell all kinds of things like Steam Accounts and stuff like that, but it's usually against the terms of service from that company, and sometimes they can shut you down if they figure out it's a totally different owner (at least with Steam). I think it's cool that people still try to find a way around the system, but I wish there was a better way where it didn't have to be like that.

[WCP]

You know, one thing I didn't mention before in regards to this topic, is that at a certain point, if the game is priced low enough, I'm willing to give up on ownership.


For example, I'm leasing about 30 something games on Steam right now. None of them cost over say 8 bucks. All bought at extreme discount during Steam sales.


Once the price gets low enough, I consider it like a long term rental, and I don't mind flushing my ownership rights down the toilet. Problem is, the game has to be REALLY cheap for me to do this, and Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo aren't willing to go that low. They would feel like they would be devaluing their software, and just getting customers conditioned to wait for sales.

Look at Steam though. They are making money hand over fist. They have "devalued" their games, if you think the temporary sales do that. They have their customers (some of them) conditioned to wait for the sales. But what Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo fail to realize, is that these low prices have made it almost a situation where you end up collecting digital games. You end up amassing a collection of games, some of which, you never even end up installing. People buy games on Steam like buying a vanilla latte. It's not a big deal for people, because the prices are so low, that people try all kinds of things. I'd love it if that happened in the normal console world, but they will never go that low with their so called triple A fare.

[bb_hood]

Is the Wii soft-modded ? Were those 75 games purchased by the previous owner ?

They were ALL purchased by the previous owner. The system is not soft-modded, i dont own any soft-modded hardware. Thus I cant play them on any other wii so Im only screwed if this wii breaks.

Dont have to be connected to the internet to play any on the wii. With the ps3 you can be offline and play almost all games tied to an account, and you can have 2 accounts on a single system. The only game I found so far that diddnt work offline at all was Bomberman online. Since you can have 2 accounts on a single console, you can freely share games between 2 people. The DLC becomes much more affordable when its all 50% off. I was told that initially you could have something like 5-6 accounts on a console but people abused the hell outta that./.

That is assuming, of course, that these were legitimate purchases rather than installed via the homebrew channel. Also, it might not hurt to check out the purchase history in the Wii Shop and see if everything that has been purchased, is downloaded and installed.

They were purchased by the previous owner and I never had access to his account so I assume they cant be transferred. So much nintendo goodness though, he bought almost every good game on the wii, from the nintendo online store and he had almost every good disc game complete. He then sold everything to me. The lot was on Craigslist for 2 months before I bought it, and I was willing to drive to Boston to pick it up.

[Tanooki]

Good post WCP. You're dead on right about that. There's a disconnect with the established sales pattern and greedy setup that the big 3 hardware makers use. When you look at things like Steam and GoG.com you find that you can sell stuff for a lot less, but you sell a lot more copies, sometimes it's some who do buy it like getting starbucks -- fluff cash, and when you're at fluff pricing stuff doesn't necessarily get used but they get paid. I've got a lot of humble bundle games on steam I won't use and wouldn't like but there are things in those packs where the price is right.

It's interesting that more of the better third party games are now on steam too and they cost usually less than retail, maybe not so much longer term like RE Revelations is $50 on steam, it's not that spendy on WiiU or PS3 but with a sale, often I've seen it at 1/2 off, $25 isn't so bad if you're a fan. Perhaps looking at it as a devaluing is a rotten idea. I get they need to make money, but perhaps their practices in setting up unrealistic hollywood like budgets on games are as much if not more the problem too. If you set a budget so high you need to sell like 5M copies of a game at or near $60 you're doing it wrong.

[mario-fan]

Doubt it. As others in the thread have said, it's going the other way if anything. You will get less of an ownership stake in whatever games you purchase for the console.

The closest we came to ownership of games was back in the cartridge days...and of course the PSX/PS2 etc discs.

Even for the Wii, you still had the disc, which I like. The important thing for me is to be able to have a physical copy of the game. Once you surrender that, it's all over. (But I did purchase a lot of games on the Virtual Console, because I thought it was a great idea and allowed me to play lots of games that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise..mostly games for TG16)

[Leo_A]

They were ALL purchased by the previous owner. The system is not soft-modded, i dont own any soft-modded hardware. Thus I cant play them on any other wii so Im only screwed if this wii breaks.

While it's correct that you can't transfer them to another Wii since Nintendo has never provided such functionality, you can transfer them to a Wii U like I already said. That they were purchased by a previous owner is irrelevant since neither Nintendo, the Wii, or the Wii U would be aware of that fact.

That's about the sole benefit of Nintendo's idiotic DRM policy where Wii downloads were tied to the hardware that they were purchased on rather than to a user account (Of which there is no such thing with a Wii, hence the lack of a problem since the key to accessing this content is the physical console itself rather than a non-existent user account).

So if you own or intend to purchase a Wii U, don't hesitate to take advantage of Nintendo's content transfer feature.

http://en-americas-support.nintendo....wii-to-a-wii-u

In case of any lingering doubt despite the fact that I just did this a few months ago, note the lack of any mention about any accounts for the Wii in those instructions.

he bought almost every good game on the wii, from the nintendo online store

Just to reiterate another statement now that I've hopefully convinced you about Wii DRM, I recommend firing up the Wii Shop on this system and browsing the console's purchase history by selecting the "Titles You've Downloaded" button in the Wii Shop's main menu.

He might've been juggling space or deleting games that he knew he was finished with, in which case there are more games tied to this console than you're aware of. You can redownload them from this location as well.

And if you're new to the Wii like it sounds, make sure your power button turns to red when turning the system off. That means that the useless WiiConnect24 feature is disabled in the system settings and that your console's WiFi module won't be cooking the system while it's turned off, which is known to eventually cause GPU damage since the fan doesn't work in standby mode to cool the system.