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Thread: Alex Kidd or Mario...?

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    Insert Coin (Level 0) armonigann's Avatar
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    Default Alex Kidd or Mario...?

    Both were a favorite growing up, but Mario seemed to always have the upper hand to most..including myself..here lately I've been enjoying a lot of AK, especially AK in Shinobi World..
    Im looking for Bonk for the NES. No need to pm me though, unless you would accept bits of string for tender.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
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    Probably since Alex Kidd games were more miss than hit, even the great SMS game 2 bosses were random rock paper scissors crap shoots tearing away at your life count which sucked. The stages and play were fun though, but then Sega up and abandoned it for Sonic.

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    I didn't think that any of the Janken matches were random (I think they were called that). Even if they were though, if you got the telepathy ball you could see what your opponent was going to select. Even if they changed it a split second before the draw, you still had time to change your selection to counter it. You needed to have Dragon's Lair timing of course.

    In any event, I enjoyed Alex Kidd in Miracle World more than the original Super Mario Bros. but I never thought that it was a better game over all. It just just more of a personal thing. I really loved that aesthetic that most first party master system games had, and I just loved the overall character of the game.

    I actually love all of the Alex Kidd games that I've played (I never played the BMX one or Enchanted Castle on the Genesis), even The Lost Stars. It's terrible, but there's just something about it that I like. Miracle World and Shinobi World are the best, of course. To most I think they're the ONLY ones that really matter, besides maybe Enchanted Castle.

    There's no contest though pitting the Alex Kidd series against the Mario series. It's not even close; Alex Kidd isn't even in the same league.

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    First post! Yay!

    Personally, I've always preferred Alex Kidd over Mario. My dad bought me Miracle World at Toys R Us on the day they opened in my home town. What a great memory.

    I often wonder what would have happened if Sega kept supporting Alex. The series had so much potential for memorable characters and games than span generations, just like Mario. Then again, perhaps it's best that Alex never really took off. Look at what's happened to Sonic.

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    I still haven't had much time playing Alex Kidd. I only have lost stars. I do like me some Psycho Fox though hah. But for this thread I would say Mario. Mainly because I have had seemingly endless more time with Mario.

    Also I would have thought Wonder Boy would have had more buzz in the Sega world than it gets.

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    Strawberry (Level 2) ccovell's Avatar
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    Alex Kidd in Shinobi World is actually a lot of fun. Certainly can't beat any of the Mario games (except perhaps Mario Bros.)

    The reversed jump & attack buttons of the original AKiMW, and its slippery character, kinda kill a bit of the fun in the game.

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    celerystalker is a poindexter celerystalker's Avatar
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    I think the Mario games are universally more balanced, complete games, and not by a small margin. To give it context, I do own most games in both series, and also have played and loved both since they first came out.

    Alex Kidd has nice, catchy music, good control once you get used to it, and nice colors. The vehicles are fun, and there's more variety in stages. Mario also has catchy music, tight control, and nice pixel graphics. Where it wins out is difficulty curve and balance. Rock paper scissors is never an excuse for a boss fight. Late in the game, when they are a precursor to a fight? I mean, at least with the telepathy orb it was no big deal, but what if the janken matches determined an advantage or disadvantage in the actual fight instead? Mario's boss fights, while simple at best made sense with the game's form, and new obstacles or attacks were gradually added in throughout each world to keep a fair but increased level of challenge. Take Alex Kidd in Miracle World, the first and in my opinion best in the series... Janken aside, the last couple of levels suddenly ramp the challenge through the roof with spike-laden labyrinths, and if you didn't bring the right items, you are out of luck. Ever try swimming through the maze of spikes in the last level without the protective gear? Mario makes it possible, just more difficult without power-ups, but you're never at that kind of jump in difficulty that can just stop your game dead in its tracks. Had Alex Kidd built toward its end with more than one other maze level, or made more items relevant than just the telepathy orb for 95% of the game, this wouldn't be so over the top. Also, the question blocks that can spring a grim reaper on you... if the manual had explained how they work cycling through results, it would have made way more sense.

    While Super Mario Bros is considerably less varied and experimental, it instead chooses to do what it does in a tighter, more balanced package that is less ambitious but way more playable and polished. It's kind of Nintendo vs Sega in microcosm... Sega tried to paint the Mona Lisa and made a lovable mess. Nintendo drew a stick figure, but they sure drew the shit out of it.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
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    My experience with Alex Kidd is Miracle World and Shinobi World with a teeny bit of some Genesis game where he was in a house, it sucked. I just didn't want to go into all the detail as I can't be certain not owning everything but that post celery made still fits with how i was thinking Alex was likely to be like across the board between the good and bad games, and even the good games with bad balancing moments. Mario maybe all in all easier, but perhaps it's not so much if you think about it but it's because it ramps up everything harder stage by stage world by world, it's not a yo-yo with extremes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccovell View Post
    The reversed jump & attack buttons of the original AKiMW, and its slippery character, kinda kill a bit of the fun in the game.
    Reversed jump and attack button? I recall people talking about some NES games having reversed jump and attack buttons, but I wasn't realy sure what they meant. Do you mean that they're different from most games jump and attack?

    I never noticed if there was a standard, or majority used scheme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    Ever try swimming through the maze of spikes in the last level without the protective gear?
    Yeah, literally hundreds of times. And I always make it.

    The spikes can't actually hurt you unless you actually 'push' into them. Alex floats to the surface when it swims, but it doesn't hurt you if you float into the spikes. He bobs up and down when it reaches them. It only hurts you if you push UP or DOWN into the spikes. You basically float up into the spike channels, and once you're touching them you move right or left to navigate the maze. Just float into where you need to be, then only use right or left pushes. Trust me, they can't hurt you. It's just an intimidation thing.

    It took me a LONG time to realize this though.
    Last edited by Emperor Megas; 12-14-2014 at 12:04 PM.

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    celerystalker is a poindexter celerystalker's Avatar
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    That trick never worked for me. My Miracle World is the version built into the Master System II. Anyone aware of version differences? That works if I have the hard hat, but otherwise it got me. Maybe I was just sloppy with diagonals on my mushy Master System D-pad. Both of mine are a little squishy. I know I can use a Genesis pad, but it feels wrong to me.
    Last edited by celerystalker; 12-14-2014 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    That trick never worked for me. My Miracle World is the version built into the Master System II. Anyone aware of version differences? That works if I have the hard hat, but otherwise it got me. Maybe I was just sloppy with diagonals on my mushy Master System D-pad. Both of mine are a little squishy. I know I can use a Genesis pad, but it feels wrong to me.
    Master System II version has "Mario controls," with jump on button 2, attack on button 1. The original has it backwards, and makes the game much harder/awkward to play.

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    Pear (Level 6) retroman's Avatar
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    I love Alex Kidd games, but I just feel like Mario games always just had more polish to them. Everything is just plain better with Mario games. That is just my opinion on the topic.

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    Hands down Alex Kidd. I have never forgiven Sega for dropping him like a piece of garbage when Sonic too over as their mascot. I would do almost anything for a new Kidd game.

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    Strawberry (Level 2) ccovell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Megas View Post
    Reversed jump and attack button? I recall people talking about some NES games having reversed jump and attack buttons, but I wasn't realy sure what they meant. Do you mean that they're different from most games jump and attack?

    I never noticed if there was a standard, or majority used scheme.
    There is, and it might just have to do with habit, but I think it has to do with biology.

    A lot of gamers (not all) hold their right thumb over both the B and A (1 and 2 on SMS) buttons and need to rock their thumb joint in order to press one or both of the buttons.

    With the "standard" fire function on B and jump on A, you'll be holding A for long periods to make high jumps, but pressing B rapidly to fire a weapon. Reverse those controls, and my thumb at least feels really fatigued.

    So basically holding A while rapidly tapping B seems a lot physically easier than holding B and tapping A.

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    IMO Alex Kidd always had sloppy control physics in comparison to Mario which always had tight controls. Sonic also had very tight controls like Mario so this is part of the reason he was so much more successful than Alex even on the 8-bit versions.
    [quote name='Shidou Mariya' date='Nov 17 2010, 10:05 PM' post='4889940']
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    Strawberry (Level 2) ccovell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickstilwell1 View Post
    Sonic also had very tight controls like Mario so this is part of the reason he was so much more successful than Alex even on the 8-bit versions.
    ......ex.....cept........for.......walk.....ing... ..up........................slopes!

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    That works if I have the hard hat, but otherwise it got me. Maybe I was just sloppy with diagonals on my mushy Master System D-pad. Both of mine are a little squishy. I know I can use a Genesis pad, but it feels wrong to me.
    There was a 'hard hat' in AKiMW? I don't even remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccovell View Post
    There is, and it might just have to do with habit, but I think it has to do with biology.

    A lot of gamers (not all) hold their right thumb over both the B and A (1 and 2 on SMS) buttons and need to rock their thumb joint in order to press one or both of the buttons.

    With the "standard" fire function on B and jump on A, you'll be holding A for long periods to make high jumps, but pressing B rapidly to fire a weapon. Reverse those controls, and my thumb at least feels really fatigued.

    So basically holding A while rapidly tapping B seems a lot physically easier than holding B and tapping A.
    Wow. I never thought about that before. It's probably a good thing that I don't design video games. I never noticed any difference between games that used one scheme over the other. I've been lucky in that I've never had a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickstilwell1 View Post
    IMO Alex Kidd always had sloppy control physics in comparison to Mario which always had tight controls. Sonic also had very tight controls like Mario so this is part of the reason he was so much more successful than Alex even on the 8-bit versions.
    I always thought that Sonic games had HORRIBLE controls. You couldn't walk up a hill, and running at breakneck speed meant you were exploring anything. Just rushing though like a blur. Stopping sucked, walking up ANY incline sucked. In fact, you flat out couldn't do it. You had to go back and always get a running start to clear the smallest hill. Also (and this is probably just a 'me' thing), I've NEVER been able to understand how to do the charging spin dash in any of the sequels. IIRC, letting go (of the button or D pad, I don't remember anymore) after you charge it was how it was performed, but simply letting go just never felt, I don't know, natural. I wish it launched with a button push instead.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
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    Apparently you're not the only one who never realized why games put B to (do something) and A to jump, the thumb bends that way so it's easier and you don't have to let up on one button to do the other option. I say that because the fools who did the GC port of the Mega Man Collection did the same move and the game is rendered impossible to play because you need to be able to jump and gun at the same time in that game and you just can't do it. The PS2 version has it setup right, just the GC one is broken by design.

    I always felt Sonic games controlled badly too, primarily at least when you're not up to speed, but then again is there really any control in it at top speed other than kind of what you get in a modern endless runner tablet phone game? It works because you just need to tap or hold jump or maybe a quick press of a direction one way or the other and it appears fluid. That's how Sonic works, but if you have to walk around slow, or even dare to walk up a 10% incline or more and it just all goes right down the toilet. It's not really natural, you just either get used to it, or you don't and you tolerate it or give up on Sonic.

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    celerystalker is a poindexter celerystalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Megas View Post
    There was a 'hard hat' in AKiMW? I don't even remember that.
    Oh, you don't remember because it wasn't called a hard hat. It was technically called capsule B, I think. My brother and I always said we needed the hard hat because at the time, we were playing Treasure Master on NES as well, and you used a hard hat for protection from spikes in that game. (We thought we were gonna be good enough to win the contest in that game. We never beat the moon level.)

    I have always hated Sonic's controls. I know Mario had to build up a little momentum, too, but Sonic starts way too slow for my liking, and then ramps up to too fast to be played as much of a real platformer. I feel like you have to memorize the stages more than you should have to in order to play the game the way it's meant to be played. There are all those set pieces that make me feel like I'm missing something, and while the levels are meant to be explored, the game just wants me to run really fast toward the end. It's like it wants to be two different games at the same time that don't mesh well. I didn't truly enjoy a Sonic game outside of Sonic Adventure on Dreamcast, which did a good job of drawing a line between exploring and speeding toward the goal, and its movement didn't start as if Sonic was stuck in tar. Alex Kidd's control may be a little slippery, but you can get a feel for it and play it with more finesse than Sonic. I kind of resent 16 bit Sonic, because I like the graphics and sound, and they have flashes of brilliance, but then I start to hate them for tge stop/start/run really fast until an enemy pops up from under the ground or spikes pop up and make you feel stupid for losing all the rings you've painstakingly collected gameplay. What's the point of all those hidden rings if you're going to undo all of my work in one hit out of nowhere when I'm doing what the game tells me to-run really fast and occasionally jump. The games are easy to finish, but totally unrewarding to me.

    Sorry, this is not about Sonic. Sonic sucks, though, and I always liked Alex Kidd better. Also, I have to agree with 8bit archaeology. I like the Wonder Boy series better than Alex Kidd or Sonic. I can only imagine it wasn't more prominently featured due to Westone also letting Hudson publish PC Engine ports and spin off the Adventure Island series...

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