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Thread: Question for those who use upscalers like xrgb

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    Default Question for those who use upscalers like xrgb

    I just bought an xrgb 3 for a decent price and was planning on using a dvi to hdmi cable to output to my tv. Problem is I didn't know that in this mode a decent amount of frames of lag would be added, the xrgb-3 has a vga out that produces next to zero lag but my tv doesn't have vga input

    What's the best way to transcode the vga out from my xrgb unit to my tv in either component or hdmi without adding further processing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingMAN.S9 View Post
    I just bought an xrgb 3 for a decent price and was planning on using a dvi to hdmi cable to output to my tv. Problem is I didn't know that in this mode a decent amount of frames of lag would be added, the xrgb-3 has a vga out that produces next to zero lag but my tv doesn't have vga input

    What's the best way to transcode the vga out from my xrgb unit to my tv in either component or hdmi without adding further processing?

    You will probably hate this answer as much as I did when I learned about it but:

    Unfortunately there's no way to not add further processing. While using B0 mode with DVI/HDMI out does produce a little lag (21 ms...a whole frame takes ~34 ms so its 2/3 a frame of lag) its mostly unnoticeable. The problem with this mode is it does not allow for scanlines or other features. The only way to add unnoticeable lag and to be able to use B1 mode and scanlines is to get a Gefen VGA to HDMI converter that will run you an additional $250. This is the cheapest way to do it (there are other converters that are WAYYYY more expensive that do the same thing...extron and DVDO come to mind for about $400-$500) but the gefen has a really high conversion speed (28ms...so only 7ms more) All other cheaper converters will add 3 to 4 times the amount of lag that the gefen does (a full 1-2 frames...that is noticeable). This is the setup I have for my game room and it works flawlessly. In fact, I cant even tell a difference. Just be sure to turn off any and all post processing that your HDTV might do (scaling, line doubling, picture modes, etc) as that can add additional lag as well up to a frame. As a matter of fact, when I turned all the extra processing off on my tv I realized it was the tv adding lag and not the XRGB3 or the gefen. The only issue that arises with the gefen is usually with fighting games as it cannot handle resolution switches mid game (screen will go blank for a few seconds and then reappear, obviously in a fighting game that is unacceptable) but I then simply switch it to B0 mode.

    So if your fine with no scanlines, I would recommend keeping your setup as is and just make sure your tv post processing stuff is off. Otherwise...$$$$$$
    BTW my TV does have VGA input but the signal from the XRGB3 is incompatible...imagine how pissed I was!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroa View Post
    You will probably hate this answer as much as I did when I learned about it but:

    Unfortunately there's no way to not add further processing. While using B0 mode with DVI/HDMI out does produce a little lag (21 ms...a whole frame takes ~34 ms so its 2/3 a frame of lag) its mostly unnoticeable. The problem with this mode is it does not allow for scanlines or other features. The only way to add unnoticeable lag and to be able to use B1 mode and scanlines is to get a Gefen VGA to HDMI converter that will run you an additional $250. This is the cheapest way to do it (there are other converters that are WAYYYY more expensive that do the same thing...extron and DVDO come to mind for about $400-$500) but the gefen has a really high conversion speed (28ms...so only 7ms more) All other cheaper converters will add 3 to 4 times the amount of lag that the gefen does (a full 1-2 frames...that is noticeable). This is the setup I have for my game room and it works flawlessly. In fact, I cant eveon tell a difference. Just be sure to turn off any and all post processing that your HDTV might do (scaling, line doubling, picture modes, etc) as that can add additional lag as well up to a frame. As a matter of fact, when I turned all the extra processing off on my tv I realized it was the tv adding lag and not the XRGB3 or the gefen. The only issue that arises with the gefen is usually with fighting games as it cannot handle resolution switches mid game (screen will go blank for a few seconds and then reappear, obviously in a fighting game that is unacceptable) but I then simply switch it to B0 mode.

    So if your fine with no scanlines, I would recommend keeping your setup as is and just make sure your tv post processing stuff is off. Otherwise...$$$$$$
    BTW my TV does have VGA input but the signal from the XRGB3 is incompatible...imagine how pissed I was!!!

    Scanlines is not a deal breaker for me but it is something I was really looking forward to, I was thinking of putting an slg in a box or slg3000 if I could track one down in the chain somewhere but that would become a nightmare when having to switch to consoles plugged in on different inputs.


    Are there no vga to component transcoders that would work?
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    To be honest, I'd sell the XRGB-3 if you can't use VGA. Adding another converter on top of that would be bad for lag. Or give the DVI to HDMI a shot, maybe it won't be noticeable.
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    For stuff like this I used to use an Audio Authority 9A60A. Can be had for only a little over a hundred bucks these days. Don't recall the estimated amount of lag introduced, but it's one of the better components out there.

    However nowadays, I just use my DVDO processors in the chain with Micomsoft XRGB products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    To be honest, I'd sell the XRGB-3 if you can't use VGA. Adding another converter on top of that would be bad for lag. Or give the DVI to HDMI a shot, maybe it won't be noticeable.
    It all comes down to what your end game is. I have an XRGB-3 to gefen to tv and the lag is really not at all noticeable with B0 mode with a DVI to HDMI. Lag is also really not noticeable at all when I switch the output to my gefen HDMI upscaler using B1 mode VGA (either set up is less than a frame), but with cheaper upscaling solutions lag is very noticeable so don't even bother with those I tried and it doesn't work. The gefen (or dvdo or extron and a few others) solution is more $$$, but it will be comparable to the B0 HDMI output. But at that point if your not looking for certain functionality like scanline strength, certain inputs and picture functionality that the XRGB-3 provides, etc you could just sell the XRGB-3 and get a XRGB framemeister which natively outputs HDMI with scanlines for the difference in price maybe even a little cheaper. It really depends on if you want scanlines and what/how many inputs you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroa View Post
    It all comes down to what your end game is. I have an XRGB-3 to gefen to tv and the lag is really not at all noticeable with B0 mode with a DVI to HDMI. Lag is also really not noticeable at all when I switch the output to my gefen HDMI upscaler using B1 mode VGA (either set up is less than a frame), but with cheaper upscaling solutions lag is very noticeable so don't even bother with those I tried and it doesn't work. The gefen (or dvdo or extron and a few others) solution is more $$$, but it will be comparable to the B0 HDMI output. But at that point if your not looking for certain functionality like scanline strength, certain inputs and picture functionality that the XRGB-3 provides, etc you could just sell the XRGB-3 and get a XRGB framemeister which natively outputs HDMI with scanlines for the difference in price maybe even a little cheaper. It really depends on if you want scanlines and what/how many inputs you need.
    I actually still prefer the xrgb-3 over the frame meister due to the sheer amount of inputs plus vga for my dreamcast. It's to much of a hassle to get vga going on the frame meister. How do saturn and ps1 stuff look in b0 mode?

    I'm still happy with my purchase as I can just get a hanzo for my dreamcast and still get scanlines via b0 mode. If I can find a decent transcoder like the Geffen etc for around 75 maybe then I'd bite. Right now I guess I'm stuck with what I got.

    If anyone needs a rgb euro scart to bnc with audio breakout cable for their rgb monitor pm me, since I'm not gonna need my Sony bvm anymore, might as well get rid of it
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingMAN.S9 View Post
    I actually still prefer the xrgb-3 over the frame meister due to the sheer amount of inputs plus vga for my dreamcast. It's to much of a hassle to get vga going on the frame meister. How do saturn and ps1 stuff look in b0 mode?

    I'm still happy with my purchase as I can just get a hanzo for my dreamcast and still get scanlines via b0 mode. If I can find a decent transcoder like the Geffen etc for around 75 maybe then I'd bite. Right now I guess I'm stuck with what I got.

    If anyone needs a rgb euro scart to bnc with audio breakout cable for their rgb monitor pm me, since I'm not gonna need my Sony bvm anymore, might as well get rid of it
    I have the Saturn going into the front RGB-21 pin and I must say that it does look nicer in B1 with scanlines but in B0 mode the picture is pixel perfect albeit blocky from the lower res (and must be switched to 220 ohm in the menu). For better picture try to get RGB-21 cables for any systems that can use it if you can as your picture will improve tremendously - ie opposite of the Saturn I actually prefer my neo geo in B0 cuz it just looks that amazing with RGB and scanlines actually diminish the details (of course do not use scart as it will fry your front Game In input). Or you can get a scart to rgb-21 converter they are fairly cheap as all it does is just reassign the pins. PS1 will look decent depending on your connection in B0 mode although the textures are really pixelated but that's true even in B1 mode with scanlines. I have it running in S-Video and get no distortions and the only issue I had was that I had to crank the gamma and black level way up on the XRGB-3 as the blacks were way too black but every tv is different.
    And I wish you happy hunting for a gefen or dvdo on the cheap. In the end if you can find it for that price it is definitely the way to go for an XRGB-3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroa View Post
    I have the Saturn going into the front RGB-21 pin and I must say that it does look nicer in B1 with scanlines but in B0 mode the picture is pixel perfect albeit blocky from the lower res (and must be switched to 220 ohm in the menu). For better picture try to get RGB-21 cables for any systems that can use it if you can as your picture will improve tremendously - ie opposite of the Saturn I actually prefer my neo geo in B0 cuz it just looks that amazing with RGB and scanlines actually diminish the details (of course do not use scart as it will fry your front Game In input). Or you can get a scart to rgb-21 converter they are fairly cheap as all it does is just reassign the pins. PS1 will look decent depending on your connection in B0 mode although the textures are really pixelated but that's true even in B1 mode with scanlines. I have it running in S-Video and get no distortions and the only issue I had was that I had to crank the gamma and black level way up on the XRGB-3 as the blacks were way too black but every tv is different.
    And I wish you happy hunting for a gefen or dvdo on the cheap. In the end if you can find it for that price it is definitely the way to go for an XRGB-3.

    Yeah I keep hearing saturn is a bit finicky to get going on the xrgb 3 but I also heard the neo geo couldn't run at all and you apparently have both running good so maybe my info is outdated.

    I just bought a euro scart to jp21 adapter so I can continue using my rgb scart cables for ps1 and saturn. The dreamcast obviously goes in the vga input and for my ps2, psp and gamecube I'll be running them through a powered component switchbox with the output cables being some component to d terminal cables I had for my japanese ps2.

    Do you have a 360 by any chance? I'm thinking of running that in thru the xrgb as well for scanlines but I traded in my old 360 for the newer slim e series which have no vga cables made for them. Not sure if it would be worth the hassle to get that going, anyway anything else I should know about setting up the saturn?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingMAN.S9 View Post
    Yeah I keep hearing saturn is a bit finicky to get going on the xrgb 3 but I also heard the neo geo couldn't run at all and you apparently have both running good so maybe my info is outdated.

    I just bought a euro scart to jp21 adapter so I can continue using my rgb scart cables for ps1 and saturn. The dreamcast obviously goes in the vga input and for my ps2, psp and gamecube I'll be running them through a powered component switchbox with the output cables being some component to d terminal cables I had for my japanese ps2.

    Do you have a 360 by any chance? I'm thinking of running that in thru the xrgb as well for scanlines but I traded in my old 360 for the newer slim e series which have no vga cables made for them. Not sure if it would be worth the hassle to get that going, anyway anything else I should know about setting up the saturn?
    For the Saturn you might want to upgrade the cable as the problem is that the refresh rate changes very slightly over time, especially during screen flashing, making the xrgb 3 freak out since it is looking for a steady 59.97Hz refresh rate. The solution its simply a matter of having an rgb-21 cable with a dedicated separate sync line (raw/pure sync) which can be had online for about $20-$25. There was a retro cable maker on ebay a while ago(cant remember the name right now) and if you ask nicely before you buy they will do a raw sync version for you.

    The neo I had modded to output component (REI) so it goes directly from my system into the d-terminal pin 2 (the one where you can control settings..i believe its 2). The neo also requires AFC to be set to 5 manually and no v-lock in B0 mode to work.

    I do have a 360 but do not run it through the XRGB3. Any newer system with HDMI out goes to my HDMI switch and directly to my tv and to my receiver with optical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthLurker View Post
    For stuff like this I used to use an Audio Authority 9A60A. Can be had for only a little over a hundred bucks these days. Don't recall the estimated amount of lag introduced, but it's one of the better components out there.

    However nowadays, I just use my DVDO processors in the chain with Micomsoft XRGB products.
    This is what I'm looking at doing now as well. Didn't realize how horrible the xrgb-3 compatibilty with modern tvs was. It still hasn't arrived so I'm crossing my fingers that the dvi to hdmi in b0 will be enough and will work out


    I literally just sold my Sony bvm 20f1u this morning so there is no going back lol


    I was mainly considering going the audio authority 9a60a route but for about $100-$150 more I can get a dvdo edge that can take care of de interlacing my 6th gen systems. Problem is looking at pictures I can't see how they would interface, the dvdo edge has no vga input I can see, don't tell me once again I'm stuck using dvi out in b0 from xrgb to dvdo edge and from there out to TV. If that's the case who the hell would sign up for this? Even more lag from the extra step in the chain, no scanlines just for compatibility?

    How do you have yours hooked up? Like a step by step so I can retrace all the links in your chain I feel like I'm missing something
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