Is it me, or do Master System titles have really bad game feel overall?

[The Adventurer]

So I had the opportunity its to play a pile of Master System titles today. I've always found the system interesting and its library a potential well of new material.

But now that I've had a real go at some of the major titles I can't help but feel that most of them just feel.. Bad. Slippery movement, floaty jumping, awkward Attack animations... It's kind of irritating because a lot of the titles look fantastic. But compared to the average control quality of comparable NES titles, it's just not jiveing with me. Never mind how many have reversed jump/Attack from the Mario mold.

Was it just to early, was good game feel just not natural for developers yet? Or is it a system limitation, maybe due to the questionable D-pad it was stuck with?


The best feeling game I've played so far is Phantasy Star. But you can't really go wrong with a top down grid, I will say it's first person dungeons are the absolute best I've ever seen of its generation, he'll they're better then even anything the SNES was capable of. It's insane.

[bb_hood]

Yeah, once you actually play master system games you quickly realize they are not... well.. good.

he'll they're better then even anything the SNES was capable of. It's insane.

lets not get crazy...

[The Adventurer]

Yeah, once you actually play master system games you quickly realize they are not... well.. good.

It's annoying, because with tighter controls, they would be.

lets not get crazy...

I'm serious, I'm playing various SMT titles on snes, and thier 1st person sections aren't this smooth.

[Garry Silljo]

At one point I was only one 2 games away from a complete U.S. set. I sold all of it and some other stuff during a time of hardship and although I've regained most of what I gave up, I've really no desire to get back into the Master System. The control has the most to do with that. Almost every game feels slippery. I'm actually having trouble thinking of a single game where I wouldn't say it feels loose. It's really proof that graphics aren't everything. So many games look so much more advanced than the NES and then you pick up the controller and it all goes to hell.

[celerystalker]

Yep. Slippery control and choppy scrolling are the hallmarks of the system. There are some good games, but the fact that the same issues are common to so many games says something.

[retroguy]

While I only have ten or so games, overall I love my Master System and would like to get more games for it. I actually like the Master System version of Double Dragon more than the NES version and Rambo is a better playing game than, say, Ikari Warriors. Shinobi and Rampage are tons of fun too. Like any game system, it depends on which games you're talking about because every system has its fair share of stinkers.

[Edmond Dantes]

I think the OP's problem might be the controller.

I own five MS games and I've never really felt like the controls were bad, outside of the whole "you have to press a button on the console itself to pause the game" thing. But I play MS games using a Power Base Converter on a Model 1 Genesis, and I use a Genesis controller. I do in fact own two Master System controllers and a Light Phaser, but I can't confirm any of those three actually work--my dad found them while dumpster-diving and gave them to me (me being OCD, I scrubbed them down with soap and alcohol before even touching them bare-handed... so for all I know the controllers are too drunk to work. But then, why would I want those damn squares when I can use a three-button Genny controller?)

EDIT:

For what its worth, the five SMS games I own are:

Rastan
Zillion
Golvellius Valley of Doom
Ys the Vanished Omens
Phantasy Star

Not a control problem with any of them. Not one.

[Tanooki]

Without reading others posts to sway mine I'll say this much. I've owned a SMS twice in the last 10 years, and while it would get good use for a year or so, it would end up being a dust bunny farmer in the end and sold. The problem isn't the lack of variety, sure Nintendo screwed Sega pretty hard, but they did have a lot of differing games, many trying to be improved pseudo copy cats of some of the better NES stuff, and usually they went down alright but many fell flat. Slippery movement was a good issue with some of the fan favorite platforming games like Alex Kidd and Psycho Fox, Fox far more to the point for me it was a chore and desire wise unplayable after about an hour of abuse as it was like SMB2's ice world every stage with one hit deaths. Attack animations was another, most of them literally were a light switch of on and off, NES usually did this or just +1 or 2 animations more just so it felt less cheap and sloppy like some Jonny Quest animated cartoon of the 60s. The deal I found though was up until it more or less dropped dead in the US that was standard fare, but in the last months/years when you got stuff like Alex Kidd in Shinobi World, Rampage, Spiderman, Strider, and above all Golden Axe Warrior then it finally shined all too late. If you threw in the Genesis/arcade ports the UK and Brazil got though things were a very different thing entirely. Streets of Rage1+2, that Castlevania clone, Sonic 2, Dynamite Headdy, and others it was surprising how nice SMS games could have been which made it far more depressing the crap that was passed in the US was all we mostly got. Sure Sega did some nice stuff with various arcade games, but they also did some abysmal other stuff, and some third parties did justice like with Rampage and Double Dragon, but it was few and far between. I've owned probably 1/2 the US SMS library at one time or another and around a dozen PAL titles, tried ROMS for other stuff that's just so crappily priced because only Brazil got it, so I do have a fair grasp.

If the SMS were allowed by Sega to be properly pushed instead by stupid Tonka. If developers would have really tried to tap the system well more often, and if Nintendo hadn't scared off a good few others, I think the turd to gem ratio would be more NES like than a bit wide gulf of terribleness as far as US games go. If you want to write off the SMS I don't blame you, but if you wish to at least ROM first, buy later try out the UK stuff, you may find it's less crappy than it appears. The d-pad I never had an issue with, and I don't think it was too early because the Famicom/NES was first and they learned there enough. The system had some display and audio limits, but it had enough strengths when done right, so it's a total blame game justified against sega and other game developers for just being awful about things. I really don't believe there was like a 1986-1991 gap of a learning curve to make non-crappy stuff.

I agree with Phantasy Star too, stunning, also you need to be amazed by Wonderboy 3, Power Strike (a shooter), Aerial Assault(solid GG port), Golden Axe Warrior, and a few others before totally writing it off.

[Alianger]

What were you playing other than PS, and what exactly is "game feel"? You should use a MD controller, it works with like 95% of the library.

Pause button on the console and lacklustre sound (in the west anyway) are the only big issues with the SMS to me.

[The Adventurer]

I'm going to be honest, I emulated a bunch on games via my Wii*, so I was using the Wii Pro Controller. Which, while not the greatest D-Pad, is no slouch for retro games in general I've found. So far I've played;

Alex Kid in Miracle World (Reversed jump/attack, Alex moves too god damn fast and has a short attack)
Cyber Hunter (a bit Metroid like, and the character actually moves pretty well. I was actually getting into it, but his punch attack is one frame garbage that gives no feedback when striking enemies. Just frustrating.)
Zillion (another Metroid like game, something about movement just didn't feel right. And not having a crouch attack, only that crawl animation felt really awkward when dodging enemy fire. Still, it feels a bit better then Cyber Hunter)
Raston (this game actually feels pretty good, now I know where Volgar the Viking stole all its influences from)
Cyber Shinobi (holy shit is this game horrible just in general)
Robocob vs Terminator (a stiffer Contra, with bullets that are small and hard to dodge while firing)
Strider (It seems like a port of the Genesis version? only with horrendous slowdown when anything happens)
Strider 2 (port of the Genesis's already horrible game)
Back to the Future 2 (you have no idea how happy I was when this game booted up with the BttF music, and really good looking cutscene images straight from the movies! Finally the Back to the Future game we all needed! Only then the game starts and holy shit, NES BttF might actually be better)
Psycho Fox (somebody said this was the good Kid Kool? Its... not much better so far. I get what they what to do with these momentum mechanics, but Sonic this ain't)
Vampire (overall pretty good feeling when moving, attacking, and jumping. But its some how actually more of a pain in the ass to climb stairs then in Castlevania! Looks really good though)


*I do have a Genesis + Power Base + Master System Controller (And Alex Kid in Miracle World, Rastan, Space Harrier, Wonder Boy III, and Shinobi in cart form), I just got impatient for actually finding titles for it.

[Alianger]

Well, I've nothing against emulation or trying before buying, but looking at that list and your thoughts I'm not surprised you didn't get that great of a first impression. :P
I'll give my comments on some of these though;

Alex Kidd in Miracle World - There's a later version which switches the buttons, or you can patch the rom you have to get the same effect (google KiddEd). I do agree about the attack range, but did you by any chance miss that you have an inventory on the pause screen? Because it's a platform/adventure hybrid game with some focus on item usage for puzzle solving and a shop system. One of the items is a bracelet, which is a ranged weapon. It's really one of the best games in terms of creativity and variation, though a little unpolished in some ways.

Cyber Hunter (a bit Metroid like, and the character actually moves pretty well. I was actually getting into it, but his punch attack is one frame garbage that gives no feedback when striking enemies. Just frustrating.) - The weird thing about this one is that you need to use a second controller to access the inventory. CH is kind of lacking when it comes to the level design (mostly flat corridors), and it's a very short game. You'll soon get weapon upgrades if you stick with it though. It's not a bad little game, and it has some great music.

Zillion - The stiff controls are probably the worst part (wouldn't say they're worse than the first Metroid though tbh), but I recommend sticking with this one. It's one of the more in-depth games featuring a level up system and three different characters, and there's a map you can access with one of the computer commands.

Cyber Shinobi - This is really the worst Shinobi game you could've chosen to play. The order should be something like this: Shinobi, Alex Kidd in Shinobi World, the GG games (which are basically SMS games with better colors and stereo sound), Shadow Dancer, then the MD/GEN games.

Robocob vs Terminator (a stiffer Contra, with bullets that are small and hard to dodge while firing) - Not bad for a western run 'n gun of its time, but lacking compared to the 16-bit game.

Strider 1-2, BttF - Ouch. Just avoid these.

Psycho Fox - I also find this one pretty frustrating, but I can mention that some of the other characters control better. I think it was the monkey or tiger that had the best acceleration.

Vampire/Master of Darkness - Pretty sure you can jump off/on stairs as opposed to Castlevania though? Yeah, this one's a pretty good clone, just kind of short and easy. Another good, similar game is Kenseiden, which has some action adventure elements to it.

Other games worth playing:
Wonder Boy 3
Illusion/Mickey Mouse series & Lucky Dime Caper
Power Strike 2
Fantasy Zone II
Golvellius: Valley of Doom
Ninja Gaiden
R-Type
Asterix
Wonder Boy in Monster Land
Bubble Bobble
Sonic 1, Sonic Chaos
Jurassic Park
Outrun 3D
Power Strike
Renegade
Ys
Enduro Racer
Gangster Town (light gun)
Road Rash
Chuck Rock II
Jang Pung 3

[retroman]

I love the Master System. Its one of my favorite systems of all time. I have over 70+ games for it. I do agree that the control pad that it comes with is crap. I dont see were the game play feels loose or have bad handle. I use a Sega Genesis controller for it and it works great. Just my opinion.

[Leo_A]

Golden Axe Warrior is a pretty great Zelda clone, although sadly, it's prohibitively expensive in its original form these days.

But via homebrew emulation, a Master System or Genesis Everdrive multicart, or Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection on the PS3 and 360, it can easily be enjoyed.

[homerhomer]

While I do think the SMS can perform when needed ( R-Type and Rastan, choplifter ) there was something a little off with the little box. About 6 months ago I bought Vigilante. While the game looks way better than Kung Fu for the NES the gameplay ruins the experience. I was playing it for about 1 minute when I realized that the controls sucked. There seems to be a slight delay when punching and kicking, it just didn't feel fluid like Kung Fu on the NES. I also noticed that I can't kick enemies while facing left I try to kick them but they always end up hugging me, this is just ridiculous.

I wonder was it the development kits? Was it the QA or lack there of?

I still like the system though

[celerystalker]

I will say, even though I often sound negative on the Master System, I actually love it. It's just that by comparison, I feel a lot of these flaws stand out. That said, Wonder Boy 3 rules. Time Soldiers is a surprisingly good arcade port, as is Rastan. Phantasy Star is great if you have a map, and I love the heck out of Golvellius. Alex Kidd in Miracle World is a minor classic, and Gangster Town is astounding for an 8-bit light gun game. Golden Axe Warrior is solid, and I like The Ninja and Penguin Land. Rambo: First Blood Part II is good, and while Double Dragon is sloppy, at least it's 2 player, 'cause playing a beat 'em up alone is just no good. Weird color pallette, though. Safari Hunt destroys Duck Hunt.

Master System is pretty great. Just don't expect its library to live up to the NES or Genesis.

[treismac]

While it isn't all of the Master System games by any means, there are certainly a significant amount of games for the system that have that slippery/roller skates on ice controls for me to nod my head at the op. I've yet to play a SMS game that has the stop on a dime controls of, say, Super Mario Bros.- certainly not Alex Kidd. With that said, Wonderboy handles probably just as well as its twin Adventure Island on the NES.

A good Genesis controller, as others noted above, eliminates the crap original controller issues.

[JeremiahJT]

I have never found a control problem running through Master System games except for the difficulty in hitting the diagonals thanks to the Master System d-pad. I did feel Psycho Fox had subpar controls, but outside of that game and the diagonal problem I have never thought poorly about the system's controls. But the difficulty in hitting the diagonal directions is a BIG problem in my book.

As far as Alex Kidd in Miracle World, it does not have reversed controls. Just because you played Super Mario Bros. first, it does not mean that is the correct way for the buttons to work.

And Zillion is not like Metroid, it is like Impossible Mission. I have never played Zillion, but I always heard/read is was like Metroid. One day I watched some gameplay videos and realized the NES fans really need to expand their horizons with some pre-NES stuff.

I never played a Master System growing up since I had a 7800 and an NES at that time, but once I finally got around to getting the system and some games I was quite impressed. Phantasy Star is great, but not as great as Dragon Warrior and its sequels. I prefer Golden Axe Warrior to The Legend of Zelda. I actually enjoy some of the sports titles, not Great Football mind you, but some of the rest are pretty fun.

I would not put it above (or even) with the NES, but it has some fantastic titles in my book.

[Steve W]

I'd been interested in the Master System since it came out, but went with the NES and Atari 7800 back in the day. I'd wanted one for a while, and in the late '90s I paid $50 for one at a street sale with about 14 or 15 games. I played each title for a short while, then put it in a storage box for the rest of eternity. I just thought the games were lacking in "fun factor". I don't recall much about the controllers giving me trouble, it's just that the games I ended up with were lame. I've since bought several SMS games over the years, much better games than The Ninja, My Hero, Black Belt, Kung-Fu Kid, Pro Wrestling, Rambo, and the other boring games I got with the system. But I've never felt the need to fire up the Master System to play any of them. That first bunch of titles pretty much ruined my enjoyment of the machine. It's like Sega hired programmers who had no sense of fun.

[celerystalker]

And Zillion is not like Metroid, it is like Impossible Mission. I have never played Zillion, but I always heard/read is was like Metroid. One day I watched some gameplay videos and realized the NES fans really need to expand their horizons with some pre-NES stuff.

It is almost exactly Impossible Mission, only with needless clues to jot down in every flipping room. I like some of the graphics, but Zillion is no Metroid. Oddly, it gets all the love while its sequel gets trashed, but I prefer Zillion II as a straight run & gun. It's tough, but less dull. On an unrelated side note, I really enjoyed the DS port of Impossible Mission. Played through it a few times and had some ancient-school fun.

[Tanooki]

We know that SEGA stood in the pre-video game days for SErvice GAmes, but when you get into it with the SMS, it kind of means SErviceable GAmes unfortunately. A lot of them really were not fun, many did have problems with diagonals, crap momentum/physics, or just poor design. But for every so many turds, there is one good one out there, just not a lot as far as the US market goes. They didn't help leave a good impression keeping the finally well made stuff mostly in the UK and later in Brazil. By the time the game system was getting solid play, Genesis had been out for a good year plus and made it just not worth buying at all compounded with the fact they pulled the games just as they got the quality issue figured out.

This has nothing to do with Nintendo NES fans needing to broaden their horizons, the SMS stuff greatly had issues they caused themselves alone in designing the games play mechanics and then a good many that while not fun were at least serviceably functional. And I do have to agree though, Alex Kidd buttons do feel reversed, not from a Nintendo stand point, but a gaming one on the whole if you throw arcade and the rest in. The way a thumb will rock over two buttons, it makes no sense to have a jump and fire/run function reversed as you can't do it well if at all. That's why those Mega Man ported NES titles on that Gamecube disc get crapped on so hard with everyone saying buy the PS2 one since it's setup right as the games are borderline unplayable.