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Thread: When did Sega, as a console maker, reach the "point of no return"?

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    Smile Sega Reach This Point?

    I do not see where Sega could not do a turn around or have ever reached a point of no return. That said, some games released were better than others. However, in this day and age with android os, & the cost of production dropping (not talking about AAA titles here) they can chose to do a turn around. It will not be easy and it may require plenty of investors like through kickstarter or some other crowd funding but ultimately it can be done.
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    They won't likely do it as they love to shovel things of the old style out to other makers of third rate emulation like ATGames, but it is an interesting idea. Sega has put up some of their DC games, arcade and more up on Android. With how cheap it can be to get to market for sale a potent android box (see Nvidia Shield micro-console) I could see them probably doing fairly well if they made their own Sega box again with a good controller and the rest while having a few free games downloaded to it already, and then having it take google play to peddle some more. Sega could help bump sales having more stuff shoveled over from their past and keep it exclusive to the system. It's all hypothetical nonsense but it would be amusing if someone from the past like that with a system took another stab at it that way taking the cheap route.

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    Very broadly speaking, the same things that sank Sega are those that have continued to haunt Nintendo.

    Sony (and later Microsoft) was able to get big support from influential third-parties and the successful market expansion lead to more "cinematic" type games, starting with Metal Gear Solid and even FF VII. Nintendo has largely been able to keep its core fans (while capturing a bit of a fad market with the Wii that didn't stick around or make money for third-parties), and has always been much more soundly run than Sega. Sega was hit with a bad situation, but there was really nothing it could do to stay in the game because of the environment had rapidly changed and didn't have the reserve cash like Nintendo to finance itself. The types of games Sega make, even the inventive stuff on Dreamcast, are out of place in the more "casual AAA" market that has been expanding since the PlayStation era.

    There's part of me that wishes Nintendo and Sega were still driving the home console market if that meant that games stayed more "gamey" while adding some nice production values, but didn't reach the yearly sequel trap of mediocrity like Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed. Additionally, we now see the de-evolution of games following consoles going online, enabling shipping broken games and incomplete games to gouge for DLC and pre-order bonuses. I think that would be the world where games like Darksiders and Dragon's Dogma would be considered profitable successes, and games like Metal Gear Solid could still come out.

    Sega may have been able to thrive in such a world if it had survived to continue shaping it. But the seeds of its destruction were laid with Sony and the PlayStation, even without its own financial mismanagement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3 hoff View Post
    When sega lost the trust of retailers they where done.
    They didn't lose retailer trust until the 32X bombed. Saturn surprise launch really hurt them on top of that.
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    The Saturn launch, or really the Saturn period. They could have recovered from the 32X fuckery (which I think is overstated because no one bought the damn thing anyway) had they not butchered the launch, but the Saturn had other serious issues too. The $400 price tag for one, but the architecture made it so hard to program for that most 3rd companies didn't even bother with it. No games means it's going to bomb no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentlegamer View Post
    Don't believe anything Kalinske said without at least ten corroborating witnesses.
    I believe his track record speaks for itself. Who else could turn LeapFrog into a massive seller, Barbie back into relevance and market a muscle bound plastic doll named He-Man to pop-culture status?
    Last edited by Gamevet; 07-14-2015 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.C. Sativa View Post
    but the architecture made it so hard to program for that most 3rd companies didn't even bother with it.
    And yet, It was moderately successful in Japan, where 3rd party support was abundant in spite of the architecture.
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    Default I totally agree

    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    Honestly, I have no idea on this one. Sega is like a child genius who just can't put it all together as an adult. They've always been talented and eccentric, but rarely have they been able to bring together their great games with popular trends and a solid long-term hardware strategy.

    Console gaming in the '90s began shifting away from trying to replicate the arcade experience and started going toward new formats with long-form RPGs and PC-style gaming. Sega has been able to come up with some great RPGs and strategy games over the years, but they've always relied on the strength of their arcade development. When what they were doing was less popular, they didn't make the adjustment, they had a haphazard hardware plan, and they remained extremely Japanese in style. The Genesis in the US was lightning in a bottle. Beyond that, Sega has been busy being brilliant, but not catering to the shift in design. Sega probably could have made brilliant FPS games or WRPGS, but they kept being Sega, making Sega games. They're wonderful and eccentric, and unfortunately just not mainstream after about 1993.

    I started to love Sega AFTER the Genesis. I always felt like the Genesis was very average. It was afterward when it was clear that Sega was going to do things their own way, pass or fail, that I started to appreciate them for marching to the beat of their own drum. What makes them great to me is a huge part of what made them fail. I have no suggestions, as I wouldn't trade the Saturn and Dreamcast libraries for an also-ran group of FPS' and western-style games.

    I really wish they'd just scale back expectations and produce Sega games on Sega hardware, not attempting to compete with what's new, but just going off in their own glorious direction, but that is entirely unrealistic.

    Nintendo is doing this and while not KILLING it, they seem to be doing fine.

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    It surprises me how many people say the Sega CD shouldn't have been made. The Sega CD was itself a good idea, just Sega never really supported it and they pushed all the wrong aspects.

    I mean, think about Silpheed--a game that at the time was seen as competition with Nintendo's Star Fox. That game was made possible by the Sega CD, because all the 3D objects you see are actually an FMV sequence running in the background, with hitboxes programmed in the appropriate location.

    Personally, if I were running Sega, I would've released the Sega CD, but then aggressively supported it. I wouldn't exactly stop making games for the Genesis, but I would strongly advise licensees that if they ever made a dual-platform game, the CD version should always have more content than the cartridge version (like how Earthworm Jim CD has a new level), while having a few awesome games be CD exclusive, in order to king of wean people over onto the add-on. In addition, I would release a combination console like the JVC X'eye for people who don't already own a Genesis but are considering getting one, or for the sake of the space/power outlet savvy. Also Sega CD games should've come in cases smaller in size, more comparable to what DVDs come in today, rather than the humongous ones they came in.

    The 32X though, that was truly a bad idea and should have never even been on the drawing board.

    ..... hmm.... now I really want to build a time machine AND a mind control device, so I can go back in time and prevent Sega from being stupid.

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    I tried Silpheed. The problem is that it's kind of inconsistent with what objects are background and what needs to be dodged.

    Otherwise, seemed fun but it wasn't Starfox.
    It was actually a remake/sequel to an '80s 2D shmup for PCs (originally for like PC-88, I think. But I think there was a western DOS version). Supposedly it's notable thing was that it had human-sounding voice (and not the robo voice typically heard on 80s sound hardware). Though sound cards on PCs were an expensive add-on then, so I read they needed to send out tapes to demo the sound quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post

    I started to love Sega AFTER the Genesis. I always felt like the Genesis was very average. It was afterward when it was clear that Sega was going to do things their own way, pass or fail, that I started to appreciate them for marching to the beat of their own drum. What makes them great to me is a huge part of what made them fail. I have no suggestions, as I wouldn't trade the Saturn and Dreamcast libraries for an also-ran group of FPS' and western-style games.
    Yet you could've still had that without them failing commercially, in fact you probably would've seen more experimental stuff if they hadn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alianger View Post
    Yet you could've still had that without them failing commercially, in fact you probably would've seen more experimental stuff if they hadn't.
    How's that, then? The message of that post was that Sega's great stuff was no longer mainstream, and couldn't support the needed console sales. How could I have all that stuff Sega made that flopped hard and didn't get any praise until a decade later AND have Sega succeed? Somehow grant them extra developmental resources that they didn't have? Developing more also-ran platformers on the Genesis hardly gives them extra resources or success. Killing the 32X before it starts I get. But that's the only cut I see that frees up resources for Sega to have tried other things to gain traction with the Saturn without compromising the great games they did make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond Dantes View Post
    It surprises me how many people say the Sega CD shouldn't have been made. The Sega CD was itself a good idea, just Sega never really supported it and they pushed all the wrong aspects.

    Personally, if I were running Sega, I would've released the Sega CD, but then aggressively supported it.
    The 32X though, that was truly a bad idea and should have never even been on the drawing board.

    ..... hmm.... now I really want to build a time machine AND a mind control device, so I can go back in time and prevent Sega from being stupid.
    See I don't agree about Starfox, they're not the same in the least bit, but this rest of this entirely. Sega even halfassing it in the states because of the corrupt Japanese office proved to do well and had some really stellar games that I feel put it well on par with the SNES, and then some when you figure the FMV aspects and things they did with true CD audio. If that had been aggressively pushed and the idiots overseas hadn't sandbagged it they would have been a serious threat to Nintendo because Sony tried to screw NIntendo, Nintendo screwed them and Philips, and had NO optical drive to speak of until the Gamecube. Sega would have really busted their balls over it and taken some good support if not total franchises away from Nintendo (like Sony did on PS1.) The 32X though, that was a good case of the stupids. They needed to either kill it, or delay it and learn a way to either do one of two things with the premise which would be 1) wait and make it cheaper to be in a cart and less than the $100 Virtua Racing which was damn good, or 2) use the 32X as an integrated cart in the Genesis slot to work in tandem with the SegaCD to have an early 3D based CD game system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    How's that, then? The message of that post was that Sega's great stuff was no longer mainstream, and couldn't support the needed console sales. How could I have all that stuff Sega made that flopped hard and didn't get any praise until a decade later AND have Sega succeed? Somehow grant them extra developmental resources that they didn't have? Developing more also-ran platformers on the Genesis hardly gives them extra resources or success. Killing the 32X before it starts I get. But that's the only cut I see that frees up resources for Sega to have tried other things to gain traction with the Saturn without compromising the great games they did make.
    Maybe I misunderstood your post, I'm just saying that if they did most things right hardware and marketing-wise and kept up with getting respectable versions of the third party hit games released on the Saturn, then it's not like that would've led to you not getting their more experimental/innovative software from that period but rather the opposite.
    I also think some of the great cult hit games like Panzer Dragoon Saga could've been mainstream hits if the console was already selling well since the mid 90s. I certainly would've bought games like that if they were on a more popular system back then. Personally I was almost unaware of the Saturn's existence after '96 or so, though being a kid I didn't exactly do my research and instead listened to what other kids were talking about in school (PS1, N64, PC), went with the PS1 after renting it (w/ Tekken and Tomb Raider IIRC) and then subscribed to PS magazine (mainly for the demo discs but the point is I didn't get steady news about other systems for a few years).

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    I guess most agree it was the 32X that did Sega in.

    I remember seeing the ads for Sega Saturn with Ice Cube wearing Saturn rings around his head and just thought it looked weird. Then there was the price. No Sonic. This didn't seem like a console from the same company that made Sonic and had created all those cool commercials. When the 32X was announced, despite not having Sonic, I felt like THIS was a Sega system. Mortal Kombat II, Daytona, and Star Wars were some big names that I felt were bigger draws than whatever was announced for Saturn, like Clockwork Knight.

    They should never have put out the 32X and focused on aggressively marketing the hell out of the Saturn as the successor to the Genesis legacy.

    That said, I love Sega for it's underdog status and it's quirky iconic games. The Genesis wasn't that great of a system, having the most limited color palette of the three 16-bit systems but their US marketing team made you think you were in some exclusive club by owning a Genesis.

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    The failure to include DVD Player capability in the Dreamcast. That choice forced price cutting to remain competitive and unlike nintendo they lacked a life boat.

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    What I would have liked to have seen was the 32x built into a new Genesis console. The Nomad becoming their portable. Skipping the Saturn and focusing on the Dreamcast as being their future. Supporting the Genesis hardware until the Dreamcast. I was there, as a fan, through all of the hardware clutter and I would have felt better if this had been their game plan. Games for the Saturn could have been pushed to the Dreamcast. Their success was the 16bit years and I don't think they knew how to get past that. Sega had a strong arcade presence and when the arcades faded, so did Sega. I would have enjoyed a longer lifespan of the Genesis hardware. Now that I am a retro gamer looking back, that would have been awesome.

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    That wouldn't have actually worked out in the mid-1990s though. The market wanted next-generation 32+ bit, 3D hardware. Staying 16-bit only was never going to work all the way through 1998.

    That being said, I've done more research in the 6 years since I posted this and came to the conclusion that the Saturn's failure was Sega's fault but the Dreamcast's failure was EA's fault. EA said they wouldn't support the Dreamcast until it sold a million units. That's all well and good, but the Dreamcast crossed a million units in December 1999, three months after its launch. Then EA QUIETLY reneged on their promise and refused to support the Dreamcast at all. No big announcement of "we're not supporting the Dreamcast", they just refused to release games. They'd already missed the window for 2000-model releases but could have come out with 2001-model franchises for the Dreamcast (and, still, the PS2). Yes, many of the Sega Sports games were better but it didn't matter in the consumers' eyes, by then EA Sports games were the gold standard. Yes, the PS2 would have still stomped the Dreamcast, and Gamecube and Xbox as well.

    I do know that EA said "every dollar we give to Dreamcast development is one we can't give to PS2 development", yet they were still developing for PS1, N64, and later Xbox and Gamecube. I can't think of a year they developed for the PS2 without developing for at least two additional consoles. They supported the N64, a cartridge-based system, until the 2002 cycle, by which time the thing was basically discontinued.

    If EA didn't want to develop for the Dreamcast, they shouldn't have given that whole "million units" thing. That was a real screw-up on EA's part. And it's not like EA was short on resources, they made a conscious decision to QUIETLY renege on their promise.
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    EA basically made Sega the powerhouse that it was in the early 90s. What other developer actually made games onnthat system that made people go out in droves to buy a Genesis (besides Sega, duh)

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    That's true, early '90s EA helped to build up the Genesis, I suspect they may have also helped spur on Sega to make their Sega Sports line (which later became 2K Sports after Take-Two bought them out). Still, EA supported everyone and their mother's platform in the market by the Dreamcast-era.
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