Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

[Bojay1997]

This is a lot of euphemistic babble which sounds like a LR press release, too much to reply in a meaningful way. Let me address just two things:



1. Ebay scalping: It is not a Q if LR engages in ebay scalping, or if they invented it, or if they founded ebay. The fact is that LR tailors their businessmodel towards ebay scalpers, and then uses ebay scalping to push customers to buy their games. You draw a big separation line between LR and ebay scalping as an unfortunate and unavoidable consequence of modern times. That's not the case.

You and others and LR itself were very well aware of ebay scalping as soon as LR put limited production numbers on their games. You had to be a fool not to predict what happens next. Just read the first page of this thread shorty after LR was founded. Some expressed concern if the games would sell well enough, and then pointed to ebay scalping as an assurance that LR will sell their stock.

Quote: "And I suspect it'll go decently well for them since, even if the games stink, there are always collectors who want a rarity and scalpers who think they can make a buck off of rare games."

The answer to this post of the LR-guys themselves who went on a couple of websites to create a fanbase:

"Thank you for your support and understanding." (page 1, post #11, 10-15-2015)

And just a couple of weeks ago, when Strafe was sold, we all got in the mail this advertisement from Limited Run:

"The standard version of the game sold out several weeks ago and is already fetching several times the original retail price on secondary markets. (...) - head over to our site now and grab a copy!"

No, ebay scalping is not an unfortunate, unavoidable aftertaste of a wonderful heroic company. First, they created explicitly in interviews rarity hype (!) with the result of ebay scalping, and then they instrumentalize ebay scalping to push for sales of their games. A great company indeed. Artificially deflate the supply and artificially inflate the demand proved to be very successful.

And your reasoning that potentially everything nowadays, even my own toothbrush, might be a victim to ebay scalping reminds me of the reasoning that every game since Adam and Eve is potentially rare. It is ridiculous. LR actively uses ebay scalping as a sales strategy, while Nintendo, Sony, 505 Games or Soedesco do not although ebay scalpers use their products. Inflated ebay prices shortly after the release of a game happen but are very rare exceptions (in particular for indie games!), while they are the rule for LR games as the check for ebay prices clearly showed. And the reasoning that the majority of the games despite ebay scalping are in the hands of gamers and collectors is again euphemistic babble. If 60% were in the hands of gamers and 40% in the hands of scalpers, would that be satisfying? And should we really check additionally on the frequency of actual sales of the LR games on ebay? I think you'd be surprised.

The check of the average actual ebay prices for all the LR-games, but also in particular the high-in-demand games, showed that the factor 'ebay scalping' of the LR sales strategy works well indeed. The company achieved its goal. Once there is factual rarity hype of past games, it re-enforces rarity hype and drives sales of current games because they MIGHT (not necesserily are) pricey already a week after release. Rarity hype lives from uncertainty and the 'maybe'.

The nonsensical defense- and justification-reasoning can only be explained by this:



2. Fanbase creation: Your identification level with this company is incredibly high. You like these guys and admire them. They are like us, actually, you could be one of them. They created 'we' and 'us', and as soon as someone critisizes LR it is 'us' against 'them'. You accepted and swallowed everything bad and disadvantegous associated with their salesmodel. Everyone can see that their marketing strategy has only bad aspects for gamers and collectors, but you as part of them are no longer a customer, you are part of their business, and consequently, everything which helps them also helps you and -magically- everyone of us.

It was indeed a smart move of the LR-guys to go on websites like DP in this thread and flattering posters. This way they created a fanbase which roots for support and had high hopes that this company will do well.

I truly could understand your position IF Limited Run were the only company who puts great digital games on physical discs; but there were from the beginning of the LR-times other companies which started to do the same and don't rely on such a questionable salesmodel. Once in awhile a company puts production numbers on a game, see the collector editions of Tales of Zestiria and Tales of Berseria. In particular the latter immediately became the object of ebay scalpers to a disgusting extent. Limited Run put this bad program for regular releases in their name, centered their business model around rarity hype, created limited accessibility re-enforcing rarity hype as a fertile ground for ebay scalping. Good for them because they sell their stock of games, bad for us because they are doing it at the cost of gamers and collectors. Limited accessibility and inflated ebay prices are not a good service for gamers and collectors. Sales of these games can be done in a very different manner.

Soedesco has already or will release Rogue Stormers, 8-bit Armies, World to the West (!), Pharaonic and The Girl and the Robot within just two months. All of them nichey games on physical disc. We'll also get Matterfall (!), Inside/Limbo (!, 505 Games), and The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth+, and these are the only recent ones which come to mind. And here are incredible news: All of them nichey games on physical disc WITHOUT limited accessibility of 30 minutes twice on one single day, without overpriced ebay selling beginning a couple of hours after the sales ended, and up for months so you can decide when and for which price you can purchase these games.

Incredible, it sounds like paradise for gamers and collectors, let's hope this utopian model will come true one day.

Honestly, you sound like someone that spends a lot of time sitting around sniffing your own exhaust. You asked me why I support LRG and its products and I explained it to you. In exchange you haven't addressed any of my points, but have gone off on some esoteric rant about how I'm too stupid to realize that I have been duped and about how LRG is somehow a terrible anti-consumer company because they use the potential for a sellout to move product.

We are never going to agree on these points and your arguments represent a black and white worldview that is not consistent with the way life and the world actually operates. There is plenty of room in the market for LRG and 505 and Soedesco and everyone else right now. Maybe that won't remain the case, but as a consumer I appreciate having options and LRG is just another option that has some great titles in their back catalog and in their upcoming catalog.

It's really not hard to figure out, I take two minutes on my phone, I pay the $25 and shipping most of the titles cost and then in a week or two I have yet another Vita or PS4 game physically. I don't ever have to deal with Ebay or scalpers or inflated prices of anything else. LRG isn't charging a crazy markup on these games based on comparables with the companies selling at retail and LRG has been transparent about their revenue split with the developers. I can't say the same for Soedesco or 505 or anyone else as they rarely update their websites let alone communicate directly with consumers.

I mean as near as I can tell, your whole rap seems to be that you want unlimited time to decide if you want a game and then you want to be able to wait for a price cut below MSRP. I just don't operate that way. I am happy to accept a discount through Amazon Prime or Best Buy GCU, but I don't sit around worrying about saving literally a few dollars on a $20 or $25 game. Maybe Soedesco and 505 and THQ and the others feel they can operate consistently selling their games to you and everyone who thinks like you do for under MSRP. Hopefully that is the case and they can actually profit and stay in business. Unfortunately, a lot of similar companies got wiped on in the last two generations pursuing that low cost retail model which is why companies like Majesco are now gone. Even Maximum games that published a lot of cheap games on the Wii has moved on to mid-range and full price games as they understand that the lower end of the market is a very tough space.

[lendelin]

You asked me why I support LRG and its products and I explained it to you. In exchange you haven't addressed any of my points, but have gone off on some esoteric rant about how I'm too stupid to realize that I have been duped and about how LRG is somehow a terrible anti-consumer company because they use the potential for a sellout to move product.

I didn't ask you why you support LR in general and its products. My Q was more specific. I asked you why you defend the SALESMODEL of LR while (!) other small publishers prove again and again that a normal salesmodel works just fine. I didn't get an answer.

I have addressed specifically two points of your post, all the other points are already answered or were so unconvincingly general that I graciously overlooked them.

Btw, my rants are never esoteric!

Ok, here is another specific point you addressed in the last post and already a few times before:

It's really not hard to figure out, I take two minutes on my phone, I pay the $25 and shipping most of the titles cost and then in a week or two I have yet another Vita or PS4 game physically. I don't ever have to deal with Ebay or scalpers or inflated prices of anything else.

You prove exactly my point, you are a role-model LR-customer. You buy at release day in the first couple of minutes at least a lot (maybe all?) LR-games. Why? Because you don't want to deal with ebay scalpers! Why are ebay-scalpers all over LR-games? Because they are released and marketed (!) in limited production numbers, hyped as future rare games, and the games are very profitable for ebay scalpers PLUS Limited Run Games itself pushes their games with the threat that their games might cost multiple times their original price on ebay!

How many games do you have from Limited Run because of this salesmodel? And how many games don't you have yet from other smaller publishers because of a normal salesmodel?

Do you own the majority of and buy the games at release day from 505 Games, THQ Nordic, Badland Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games, PQube, Ghost Town Games, Signature Edition Games, im8bit, Fangamer and Soedesco? (just to name the ones which come to mind, just from Soedesco I have already over ten games, and still have more than ten on my list to buy.) If not, why not if you are such an enthusiastic supporter of and concerned about smaller publishers? Are you aware that the others, which struggle in this business like LR does, won't get your business because of the LR-salesmodel? (unless your monthly budget to buy games is unlimited)

Could it be you buy LR-games right away without a minute delay even during a flight because you don't want to pay later inflated ebay prices from 50% to 600% of the original retail price?

[kupomogli]

@Bojay

As lendlin stated though, them being in the same niche indie release line as other publishers, is taking away sales from those publishers as people know that they can't wait for a LRG release, while they can wait for another release that's available through Amazon as such. There are many different variables and no one can be sure of what would happen if this wasn't the case, but there's a good possibility that we'd actually see other publishers that are more profitable and potentially release more games if most of their audience didn't feel forced into buying a limited release that they have to be there and acquire at a very specific time otherwise they pay higher prices.

Additionally, it's better for the consumer, because you'd get these same games at retail for a lower cost than LRG is offering them for the most part. If Axiom Verge was released through LRG it'd be $29.99 at retail because it's $20 on PSN, while you can get the standard version for $20 at retail from BadLand Games. I can only assume that BadLands is getting a much lower margin of profit because they're offering it at a lower price, again, a plus for the consumer. Being retail we can additionally purchase and get other items shipped along with it, and it'll be cheaper shipping charges regardless, Amazon usually sends items in boxes as a standard, not an additional required fee.

Now the plus side is that there's a potential that many of these games wouldn't get released, we have no idea if LRG didn't go for them if anyone else would. So while we can point out that they have been harmful to the industry, something that's undeniable if you actually use some common sense, even with the higher priced costs, there's some great games that they've released that may have never been released(and some that I highly doubt would have ever been released. Mystery Chronicles: One Way Heroics is one I'm pretty sure wouldn't have had a release and that's one that I was actually interested before LRG even started publishing because I enjoyed the original PC release a lot.

I purchase games I like, so I'll continue to only purchase the LRG that I'm interested in. I'm not on a crusade to stop them from publishing games, because I really don't care, but LRG is both good and bad for the industry, and that's not even counting the OCD of collectors that also feed into it. The problem with people is most people will just accept a change even if they think it's unfair or don't like it. That's the reason games have DLC out the ass, that's the reason why a good majority of publishers are releasing season passes for every game they make, not because of me, but because the average consumer just bends over and takes it. If you want to just be the silent majority that's on you, but people that don't like these changes have every bit of a right to speak up about it. Will anything happen? No, because it's the average consumer that makes these changes go into effect, but doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't like the changes can't complain about it. Are you complaining on Jim Sterling's Youtube stfu and stop complaining about assett flippers on Steam, and state "people don't have to buy these assett flips and these shitty broken Steam games," etc? Jim Sterling is a pretty loud voice and it's taken this long for anything to be done with Steam's service, but even now it's still just as bad as it was. Our voice may not be as loud as Jim as to get anything done, but everyone has a right to complain about what they don't like. LRG certainly isn't anywhere near the Steam bs, I was just using that as an example, it's just something that is potentially worse for this industry than a standard practice.

[Bojay1997]

@Bojay

As lendlin stated though, them being in the same niche indie release line as other publishers, is taking away sales from those publishers as people know that they can't wait for a LRG release, while they can wait for another release that's available through Amazon as such. There are many different variables and no one can be sure of what would happen if this wasn't the case, but there's a good possibility that we'd actually see other publishers that are more profitable and potentially release more games if most of their audience didn't feel forced into buying a limited release that they have to be there and acquire at a very specific time otherwise they pay higher prices.

Additionally, it's better for the consumer, because you'd get these same games at retail for a lower cost than LRG is offering them for the most part. If Axiom Verge was released through LRG it'd be $29.99 at retail because it's $20 on PSN, while you can get the standard version for $20 at retail from BadLand Games. I can only assume that BadLands is getting a much lower margin of profit because they're offering it at a lower price, again, a plus for the consumer. Being retail we can additionally purchase and get other items shipped along with it, and it'll be cheaper shipping charges regardless, Amazon usually sends items in boxes as a standard, not an additional required fee.

Now the plus side is that there's a potential that many of these games wouldn't get released, we have no idea if LRG didn't go for them if anyone else would. So while we can point out that they have been harmful to the industry, something that's undeniable if you actually use some common sense, even with the higher priced costs, there's some great games that they've released that may have never been released(and some that I highly doubt would have ever been released. Mystery Chronicles: One Way Heroics is one I'm pretty sure wouldn't have had a release and that's one that I was actually interested before LRG even started publishing because I enjoyed the original PC release a lot.

I purchase games I like, so I'll continue to only purchase the LRG that I'm interested in. I'm not on a crusade to stop them from publishing games, because I really don't care, but LRG is both good and bad for the industry, and that's not even counting the OCD of collectors that also feed into it. The problem with people is most people will just accept a change even if they think it's unfair or don't like it. That's the reason games have DLC out the ass, that's the reason why a good majority of publishers are releasing season passes for every game they make, not because of me, but because the average consumer just bends over and takes it. If you want to just be the silent majority that's on you, but people that don't like these changes have every bit of a right to speak up about it. Will anything happen? No, because it's the average consumer that makes these changes go into effect, but doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't like the changes can't complain about it. Are you complaining on Jim Sterling's Youtube stfu and stop complaining about assett flippers on Steam, and state "people don't have to buy these assett flips and these shitty broken Steam games," etc? Jim Sterling is a pretty loud voice and it's taken this long for anything to be done with Steam's service, but even now it's still just as bad as it was. Our voice may not be as loud as Jim as to get anything done, but everyone has a right to complain about what they don't like. LRG certainly isn't anywhere near the Steam bs, I was just using that as an example, it's just something that is potentially worse for this industry than a standard practice.

Your entire first paragraph is literally 100% speculation. You have no idea what the market will or will not bear and there is no way to ever know that as every game is different and it's not the same few thousand customers that are buying every LRG release or every Soedesco release or whatever. I know plenty of people that buy every physical niche release and plenty who cherry pick like you do. If someone skips a week on LRG, it doesn't mean they are going to spend that money on a Soedesco game. They might spend it on food or rent or some completely different kind of collectible.

Soedesco just released Aerea at $40. At full price on Steam it's $30 and on sale it's obviously far less. Similarly, the upcoming World to the West is priced at $30 from Soedesco while it's $20 on PSN. Axiom Verge has been on sale multiple times on PSN since release and is a game that is now several years old. I mean the pricing from the retail publishers is really not much different than LRG and in fact, they produce far greater quantities and don't have the same logistical or overhead costs since they don't handle shipping, so the unit cost should be far below LRG on most games and yet they don't pass along those savings as far as I can tell.

I agree with you that there are clearly games that only LRG would release.

I agree with you on day one DLC, but I don't know what that has to do with LRG. I don't believe that LRG's model is either pro or anti consumer just like I don't think that Soedesco or any of the other companies are particularly pro or anti consumer. They're just different models and people are free to vote with their wallets.

Finally, I agree that people have a right to express their opinion. Just because someone expresses an opinion doesn't mean that it's factually correct or the truth. I think one of the problems here and in the world in general is that people think everything has to be one extreme or another. The truth is that there are often many sides to an issue and trying to prove that a company or a person is just one specific thing (in this case either good or bad for consumers) is a truly foolish effort.

[Bojay1997]

Do

I didn't ask you why you support LR in general and its products. My Q was more specific. I asked you why you defend the SALESMODEL of LR while (!) other small publishers prove again and again that a normal salesmodel works just fine. I didn't get an answer.

I have addressed specifically two points of your post, all the other points are already answered or were so unconvincingly general that I graciously overlooked them.

Btw, my rants are never esoteric!

Ok, here is another specific point you addressed in the last post and already a few times before:



You prove exactly my point, you are a role-model LR-customer. You buy at release day in the first couple of minutes at least a lot (maybe all?) LR-games. Why? Because you don't want to deal with ebay scalpers! Why are ebay-scalpers all over LR-games? Because they are released and marketed (!) in limited production numbers, hyped as future rare games, and the games are very profitable for ebay scalpers PLUS Limited Run Games itself pushes their games with the threat that their games might cost multiple times their original price on ebay!

How many games do you have from Limited Run because of this salesmodel? And how many games don't you have yet from other smaller publishers because of a normal salesmodel?

Do you own the majority of and buy the games at release day from 505 Games, THQ Nordic, Badland Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games, PQube, Ghost Town Games, Signature Edition Games, im8bit, Fangamer and Soedesco? (just to name the ones which come to mind, just from Soedesco I have already over ten games, and still have more than ten on my list to buy.) If not, why not if you are such an enthusiastic supporter of and concerned about smaller publishers? Are you aware that the others, which struggle in this business like LR does, won't get your business because of the LR-salesmodel? (unless your monthly budget to buy games is unlimited)

Could it be you buy LR-games right away without a minute delay even during a flight because you don't want to pay later inflated ebay prices from 50% to 600% of the original retail price?

I buy or preorder every niche game as soon as it's available. I don't even think about Ebay or scalping. There is no point in waiting to order something as most niche titles don't drop much in price over time and they often go out of print long before the price is slashed. I own or have preordered every release by every company you have listed (although I don't think Ghost Town distributes their own games, I believe I bought Overcooked from Sold Out). I do the same thing with limited and collector's edition games. I know many, many people that do the same thing. Frankly, all of the major publishers rely on the perception that supplies may be limited as do retailers to drive preorders. Sometimes they are actually limited and sometimes they aren't. From my perspective, it doesn't matter since it doesn't cost anything to preorder on Amazon, Best Buy or Gamestop.com.

[lendelin]

DoI buy or preorder every niche game as soon as it's available. I don't even think about Ebay or scalping. There is no point in waiting to order something as most niche titles don't drop much in price over time and they often go out of print long before the price is slashed. I own or have preordered every release by every company you have listed (although I don't think Ghost Town distributes their own games, I believe I bought Overcooked from Sold Out). I do the same thing with limited and collector's edition games. I know many, many people that do the same thing. Frankly, all of the major publishers rely on the perception that supplies may be limited as do retailers to drive preorders. Sometimes they are actually limited and sometimes they aren't. From my perspective, it doesn't matter since it doesn't cost anything to preorder on Amazon, Best Buy or Gamestop.com.

If you buy EVERY game at release day from every publisher I listed, then you must have around 200 niche games for the PS4 alone. If you buy collector editions and limited editions as well with pre-order, then money doesn't play a role for you to buy games. I guess you buy then all the soundtrack bundles from LR as well.

Now I understand your positive attitude towards Limited Run Games. Because you can afford all the games you want, you can also afford a positive opinion about Limited Run. Of course you couldn't care less how Limited Run sells their games, even with a worse salesmodel than Limited Run, you get your games anyway. Of course you couldn't care less then if the LR games are scalped on ebay because with the money you can spend you are not confronted with ebay scalpers.

Please consider, however, that you and the "many, many people" you know who do the same, are in an incredible privileged position! This is a big exception! There are gamers and collectors out there who don't have this kind of money available, there are young fathers and mothers, undergrad and grad students who like games and like to collect games, and then there is the traditional stingy collector like me who could afford more but gets his games cheap. I already spend a LOT of money each month on games, but not even close to the amount of money you can obviously afford. I know a younger guy whose second child is on the way and therefore sold a lot of his GameCube games. What do you think he would say about the salesmodel of Limited Run and the lucky financial position you are in?

And yes, even niche titles drop in price over time if you are patient! You probably didn't notice it because for you it isn't necessary to check on the prices for these games because you have them all already, but a $30 game usually drops to $20 and below, some around $10, even after years you can get them cheap. This might not be a lot for you, and doesn't play a role for you because you have lots of money to spend on games, but for others it adds up and is important..

You could demand from me that I should give all the publishers generously retail price like you do, but frankly, if I did I couldn't afford the games in the numbers you obviously have. My budget is limited, yours is not.

Btw, I completely agree with kupomogli about the customers and business shares LR takes away from the other small publishers. The niche market is way too small and too similar that the likelihood this isn't the case is VERY low.

I also agree with you and kupomogli that probably LR picked up a couple of games (probably around 10-15) which others couldn't because they have the guarantee to sell all the games. (because of their terrible salesmodel with all the negative consequences!) But the other games would have been probably picked up by other publishers. This niche market is growing, and as soon a game smells like profit, the publishers will be after it. Mutant Mudds too nichey, as you said, for another small publisher? I don't think so. Wasn't Mutant Mudds one of the best selling games in the NIntendo e-shop?

Btw, BOTH issues are hypothetical, but there are also for both cases economic models which predict the outcome. However, like all the sciences which deal with human behaviour they are very good in hindsight analysis, not so good with predictability.

[Bojay1997]

If you buy EVERY game at release day from every publisher I listed, then you must have around 200 niche games for the PS4 alone. If you buy collector editions and limited editions as well with pre-order, then money doesn't play a role for you to buy games. I guess you buy then all the soundtrack bundles from LR as well.

Now I understand your positive attitude towards Limited Run Games. Because you can afford all the games you want, you can also afford a positive opinion about Limited Run. Of course you couldn't care less how Limited Run sells their games, even with a worse salesmodel than Limited Run, you get your games anyway. Of course you couldn't care less then if the LR games are scalped on ebay because with the money you can spend you are not confronted with ebay scalpers.

Please consider, however, that you and the "many, many people" you know who do the same, are in an incredible privileged position! This is a big exception! There are gamers and collectors out there who don't have this kind of money available, there are young fathers and mothers, undergrad and grad students who like games and like to collect games, and then there is the traditional stingy collector like me who could afford more but gets his games cheap. I already spend a LOT of money each month on games, but not even close to the amount of money you can obviously afford. I know a younger guy whose second child is on the way and therefore sold a lot of his GameCube games. What do you think he would say about the salesmodel of Limited Run and the lucky financial position you are in?

And yes, even niche titles drop in price over time if you are patient! You probably didn't notice it because for you it isn't necessary to check on the prices for these games because you have them all already, but a $30 game usually drops to $20 and below, some around $10, even after years you can get them cheap. This might not be a lot for you, and doesn't play a role for you because you have lots of money to spend on games, but for others it adds up and is important..

You could demand from me that I should give all the publishers generously retail price like you do, but frankly, if I did I couldn't afford the games in the numbers you obviously have. My budget is limited, yours is not.

Btw, I completely agree with kupomogli about the customers and business shares LR takes away from the other small publishers. The niche market is way too small and too similar that the likelihood this isn't the case is VERY low.

I also agree with you and kupomogli that probably LR picked up a couple of games (probably around 10-15) which others couldn't because they have the guarantee to sell all the games. (because of their terrible salesmodel with all the negative consequences!) But the other games would have been probably picked up by other publishers. This niche market is growing, and as soon a game smells like profit, the publishers will be after it. Mutant Mudds too nichey, as you said, for another small publisher? I don't think so. Wasn't Mutant Mudds one of the best selling games in the NIntendo e-shop?

Btw, BOTH issues are hypothetical, but there are also for both cases economic models which predict the outcome. However, like all the sciences which deal with human behaviour they are very good in hindsight analysis, not so good with predictability.

Physical games are a luxury. Nobody needs to own physical copies of games. I make a good living, but I'm certainly not going to apologize for that, especially since I have worked very hard my entire life to have the success I have had. Having said that, I am careful with my money, but I also am not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about trying to save a few dollars for niche games. Many people waste money on Starbucks, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, alcohol and all sorts of other things. People get to set their priorities in life and if someone chooses to have kids when they don't have the financial means to do so, it's a choice they can make, but I'm not going to feel bad that they then can't buy physical games. Games are my indulgence and something that makes me happy.

The fact that LRG is releasing games that would never get a release from anyone else is proof to me that their model isn't really terrible at all. It's necessary and beneficial to collectors. I also appreciate that LRG is very generous in their sharing of revenues with the developers as I think developers deserve to reap the rewards for their hard work.

If Soedesco and the others can't compete with LRG, they need to find a way to do so. That's the way capitalism works. They can cut prices, secure exclusives that LRG can't get or do any of a number of other things. Personally, I think they're doing fine and that the market will keep growing. 20 years from now we'll know for sure which of us was right.

[lendelin]

Physical games are a luxury. Nobody needs to own physical copies of games. I make a good living, but I'm certainly not going to apologize for that, especially since I have worked very hard my entire life to have the success I have had. Having said that, I am careful with my money, but I also am not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about trying to save a few dollars for niche games. Many people waste money on Starbucks, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, alcohol and all sorts of other things. People get to set their priorities in life and if someone chooses to have kids when they don't have the financial means to do so, it's a choice they can make, but I'm not going to feel bad that they then can't buy physical games. Games are my indulgence and something that makes me happy.

The fact that LRG is releasing games that would never get a release from anyone else is proof to me that their model isn't really terrible at all. It's necessary and beneficial to collectors. I also appreciate that LRG is very generous in their sharing of revenues with the developers as I think developers deserve to reap the rewards for their hard work.

If Soedesco and the others can't compete with LRG, they need to find a way to do so. That's the way capitalism works. They can cut prices, secure exclusives that LRG can't get or do any of a number of other things. Personally, I think they're doing fine and that the market will keep growing. 20 years from now we'll know for sure which of us was right.

I have to be honest. I'm pretty shocked about your attitude. This is a pretty elitist-arrogant attitude towards collecting from a guy who has enough money to buy so pretty much every game he wants.

If you own and buy (pre-order) at retail EVERY game by THQ Nordic, Soedesco, 505 Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games and the games of all the others niche publishers (including probably also NIS) PLUS all the Limited Run games and every possible collectors and limited edition, that makes alone well over $600 a month just for niche games. Aditionally there are mainstream games, plus probably games for older systems...guy, that is a lot of money and probably $2000 just for games every month.

This is not an accusation because I honestly believe that you deserve this kind of money and you certainly can invest it in your hobby, to buy games for it makes much more sense to me than buying cars. But please understand that you are in an exceptionally privileged position and that this is not the position of your average gamer and collector. If I'd make a survey here and would ask how many DP-members buy EVERY game at retail of the publisher I listed in the above post PLUS Limited Run games at retail, I bet that would not even be 5%. If this were 6% I'd be very surprised.

Now I understand your opinion about LR. No matter how LR sells their games, you get your games anyway. They could publish games with a printrun of 500 and sell the game for $250, you get your games anyway without problems.

The fact that you are not concerned of possible copycats of the terrible LR-salesmodel with rarity hype, ebay scalping and the instrumentalization of ebay scalping by Limited Run itself in order to push sales is troublesome but understandable. If there were even 6 companies like Limited Run, you'd get your games anyway. You couldn't care less about the negative consequences of a salesmodel for many because it doesn't affect you as a minority.

Now I understand that I never heard a word from you about the sentence by LR in their email 'get it now on our website before you pay the multiple price for it on ebay.' It doesn't concern you because it doesn't have to concern you. As long as you get games from LR, no matter how, everything is good and you can have a very good opinion about the owners as gamers, collectors, and developers like us.

That you see LR as beneficial for collectors because of ten games which probably wouldn't have been picked up by other publishers is again very understandable. The negative overshadowing consequences of their sales model doesn't affect you at all. To refer to capitalism, supply and demand, adaptation, survive or go under is very easy to say for someone who doesn't have to be concerned about price development for niche games.

That you regard physical copies as a 'luxury which nobody needs to own' fits the picture. The questionable salesmodel of LR is pretty out of reach if tailored toward the elitist collector. Possibly luxury prices for luxury products in the future?, $30 for you for niche games are very cheap and very affordable.

I have to be honest. I dislike your attitude. I think this is an elitist collectors attitude.

PS: How do you know that LR is "very generous" towards developers in sharing revenues. Do you know how much developers get from Limited Run? Do you know how much they get fom Maximum Games, 505 Games and Soedesco and all the other smaller publishers? Or is that again just a very nice assumption?

[Bojay1997]

I have to be honest. I'm pretty shocked about your attitude. This is a pretty elitist-arrogant attitude towards collecting from a guy who has enough money to buy so pretty much every game he wants.

If you own and buy (pre-order) at retail EVERY game by THQ Nordic, Soedesco, 505 Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games and the games of all the others niche publishers (including probably also NIS) PLUS all the Limited Run games and every possible collectors and limited edition, that makes alone well over $600 a month just for niche games. Aditionally there are mainstream games, plus probably games for older systems...guy, that is a lot of money and probably $2000 just for games every month.

This is not an accusation because I honestly believe that you deserve this kind of money and you certainly can invest it in your hobby, to buy games for it makes much more sense to me than buying cars. But please understand that you are in an exceptionally privileged position and that this is not the position of your average gamer and collector. If I'd make a survey here and would ask how many DP-members buy EVERY game at retail of the publisher I listed in the above post PLUS Limited Run games at retail, I bet that would not even be 5%. If this were 6% I'd be very surprised.

Now I understand your opinion about LR. No matter how LR sells their games, you get your games anyway. They could publish games with a printrun of 500 and sell the game for $250, you get your games anyway without problems.

The fact that you are not concerned of possible copycats of the terrible LR-salesmodel with rarity hype, ebay scalping and the instrumentalization of ebay scalping by Limited Run itself in order to push sales is troublesome but understandable. If there were even 6 companies like Limited Run, you'd get your games anyway. You couldn't care less about the negative consequences of a salesmodel for many because it doesn't affect you as a minority.

Now I understand that I never heard a word from you about the sentence by LR in their email 'get it now on our website before you pay the multiple price for it on ebay.' It doesn't concern you because it doesn't have to concern you. As long as you get games from LR, no matter how, everything is good and you can have a very good opinion about the owners as gamers, collectors, and developers like us.

That you see LR as beneficial for collectors because of ten games which probably wouldn't have been picked up by other publishers is again very understandable. The negative overshadowing consequences of their sales model doesn't affect you at all. To refer to capitalism, supply and demand, adaptation, survive or go under is very easy to say for someone who doesn't have to be concerned about price development for niche games.

That you regard physical copies as a 'luxury which nobody needs to own' fits the picture. The questionable salesmodel of LR is pretty out of reach if tailored toward the elitist collector. Possibly luxury prices for luxury products in the future?, $30 for you for niche games are very cheap and very affordable.

I have to be honest. I dislike your attitude. I think this is an elitist collectors attitude.

PS: How do you know that LR is "very generous" towards developers in sharing revenues. Do you know how much developers get from Limited Run? Do you know how much they get fom Maximum Games, 505 Games and Soedesco and all the other smaller publishers? Or is that again just a very nice assumption?

Nothing but hyperbole on your part. Most LRG games are very affordable at $25 and a maximum of $5.25 shipping for multiple games on a release day. Millions of people regularly spend $60 on new release games and tens of thousands of people regularly spend hundreds on LE and CE games at major retailers. LRG doesn't cater to the elite because literally anyone can take two minutes on a release day and get what they want for less than half of what a new release costs at most retailers.

I don't care if you like my attitude or not. Your opinion about me means nothing and has no relevance to the discussion.

LRG has broken down how the numbers work for a release through them several times. In addition, LRG did a comparison of what the developer of Axiom Verge would have received from them in a single day sale versus what the developer will get if Badlands sells through the entire retail print run (which is pretty unlikely to happen) and the revenue share is better through LRG even given the far smaller quantity produced.

[lendelin]

Nothing but hyperbole on your part. Most LRG games are very affordable at $25 and a maximum of $5.25 shipping for multiple games on a release day. Millions of people regularly spend $60 on new release games and tens of thousands of people regularly spend hundreds on LE and CE games at major retailers. LRG doesn't cater to the elite because literally anyone can take two minutes on a release day and get what they want for less than half of what a new release costs at most retailers.

I don't care if you like my attitude or not. Your opinion about me means nothing and has no relevance to the discussion.

LRG has broken down how the numbers work for a release through them several times. In addition, LRG did a comparison of what the developer of Axiom Verge would have received from them in a single day sale versus what the developer will get if Badlands sells through the entire retail print run (which is pretty unlikely to happen) and the revenue share is better through LRG even given the far smaller quantity produced.

Oh geez. Seriously?

You compare $60 for triple AAA titles like Uncharted and Breath of the Wild to $25 Neurovoider? Should this show how affordable LR games are? Seriously?

'Millions of gamers spend $60 for games and tens of thousands of people buy Limited Editions' Should this show that someone who spends well over $1000 a month on games is like everyone else? Seriously? I can tell you, the average gamer (and lots of them) buy the Steelbook edition of the new FF XIII but they won't spend then $1500 for other games.

The other stuff is from LR and of course I believe (and we all should) every word from them.

This discussion is over on my part. Put defense walls up as high as nonsense can go. It starts to hurt intellectually. I mean that in all seriousness!

[Bojay1997]

Oh geez. Seriously?

You compare $60 for triple AAA titles like Uncharted and Breath of the Wild to $25 Neurovoider? Should this show how affordable LR games are? Seriously?

'Millions of gamers spend $60 for games and tens of thousands of people buy Limited Editions' Should this show that someone who spends well over $1000 a month on games is like everyone else? Seriously? I can tell you, the average gamer (and lots of them) buy the Steelbook edition of the new FF XIII but they won't spend then $1500 for other games.

The other stuff is from LR and of course I believe (and we all should) every word from them.

This discussion is over on my part. Put defense walls up as high as nonsense can go. It starts to hurt intellectually. I mean that in all seriousness!

Yes, it's $35 cheaper than the typical new release game that in the modern era may not even have a single player campaign and if it does, it's lucky to be more than a few hours. Personally, I think owning a copy of a good indie game is a much more enjoyable experience than paying $60 for the latest FPS or sports game. Obviously not everyone agrees, but things have different values to different people and it's not your right to decide what something should be worth to anyone else. I also think you underestimate how much disposable income gamers have today, especially as the economy has slowly recovered. I spend time on many forums and there are lots of people who can and do spend hundreds of dollars a month on video games. They can certainly afford to spend $25 on a game (i.e. four trips to Starbucks) if it's something they are interested in.

You really do have a lot of nerve calling others elitist given the links in your signature block. You literally have shelves full of factory sealed CEs and LEs as well as standard edition games. You also have a number of games from companies that hype limited numbers and the risk of selling out on a regular basis and games that I know for a fact never dropped below MSRP or sold out during the preorder period and couldn't be purchased for MSRP or less if you missed the narrow window. I don't know many people who can afford to have large sealed and CE/LE collections and while I personally have no issue with people collecting however they so choose, you've definitely built a collection that would be considered by many to be elite in nature. I mean do you even play any of the niche games you buy or do you just let them sit there collecting dust after you reattach the disc that has come loose in shipping? Frankly, I think you're probably just one of these hypocrites who can't get out of his own way. It's really sad that you can't be happy for others and instead have to act on your insecurity by lashing out at anyone else you perceive to not be doing things in exactly the way you narrow mindedly believe they should be done.

[lendelin]

Holy...are you ok?????

[megasdkirby]

Once again...UPS Innovations suck ass. My package of Furi and Darius Burst is MIA all thanks to this horrid service. Now I have to wait a month in order to get a replacement. Sucks.

[SparTonberry]

They can certainly afford to spend $25 on a game (i.e. four trips to Starbucks) if it's something they are interested in.

At least Starbucks is open for more than 10 minutes and doesn't threaten us with having to buy on ebay.

Nintendo rarely budges on MSRP either but why do they print Mario games for years after release? I mean, surely if you want a Mario game, you're going to buy it in the first 10 minutes?
(yes, I know and I'm still mad about some of the LE BS they've done. But at least they have sense to not make it their ONLY business model.)

Maybe Atlus is a better comparison? I do remember they themselves had joked about their small production runs on some games back in like the GBA era. But it seems like they've done better about reprinting in-demand games, like SMT, since then. I do remember them saying some stuff was made to sell in bigger numbers.
I've assumed Working Designs, one of the most niche publishers, balance between RPGs and action games (which were probably more profitable, since they had less localization needed) I assume was to maintain some sustainability. I mean RPGs were limited by virtue of that in the '90s due to that prior to the close release of FF7 and Pokemon, few people really wanted them.
If you are running a business that has some concern about gaming, and wants people to actually play your games, and not just collectors that will buy everything when they're told to (like waving a doggie treat to a dog), you have to at least attempt to make your product available to a wider audience.
If what you have is a product manufactured to be a collectible, then yes, LRG is the way to go.

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, UPS Mail Innovations stinks. LRG said the only reason they're using them for domestic orders is because they were better for international orders, and to get them to do international orders, LRG had to agree to allow them to handle ALL of their shipments. They just hand the packages off to USPS at some point anyway, so UPS Mail Innovations is literally just a pointless middleman that results in wasted time and a more convoluted shipping process. I've noticed my packages from LRG are showing up markedly slower now, and they were rarely fast to begin with. And I'm not even terribly far away from LRG, since I'm on the East Coast too. I finally received my Vita copy of DariusBurst about a week ago. Goodness knows when my Bard's Gold will show up. The tracking is all but useless now. I receive "shipping confirmation" emails, but there's no movement with the tracking numbers for weeks.

[Bojay1997]

At least Starbucks is open for more than 10 minutes and doesn't threaten us with having to buy on ebay.

Nintendo rarely budges on MSRP either but why do they print Mario games for years after release? I mean, surely if you want a Mario game, you're going to buy it in the first 10 minutes?
(yes, I know and I'm still mad about some of the LE BS they've done. But at least they have sense to not make it their ONLY business model.)

Maybe Atlus is a better comparison? I do remember they themselves had joked about their small production runs on some games back in like the GBA era. But it seems like they've done better about reprinting in-demand games, like SMT, since then. I do remember them saying some stuff was made to sell in bigger numbers.
I've assumed Working Designs, one of the most niche publishers, balance between RPGs and action games (which were probably more profitable, since they had less localization needed) I assume was to maintain some sustainability. I mean RPGs were limited by virtue of that in the '90s due to that prior to the close release of FF7 and Pokemon, few people really wanted them.
If you are running a business that has some concern about gaming, and wants people to actually play your games, and not just collectors that will buy everything when they're told to (like waving a doggie treat to a dog), you have to at least attempt to make your product available to a wider audience.
If what you have is a product manufactured to be a collectible, then yes, LRG is the way to go.

Starbucks plays plenty of games with limited edition products. That unicorn drink they had a few months back was sold out almost instantly at many locations.

Physical niche games are not designed to attract a wide audience in the first place. All of the games LRG sells are available to anyone to buy digitally, often at a steep discount. Nobody needs to buy a physical copy of these games if all you're interested in doing is playing them.

LRG also regularly does runs of 3,000 - 5,000 copies on each platform. While some games sell out quickly, others can last for days. Obviously, not everyone buys every release and I think it's pretty insulting that you are comparing collectors to dogs when the forum you are posting on was built for collectors by collectors. In any event, there are companies that appear to be doing fine using the retail model and that's great for them. LRG has chosen not to do that and as a result, they seem to have been able to release a very high volume of games in a really short amount of time while attracting some of the more interesting indie game developers. Collectors and gamers have lots of choices now and LRG is just one of many that some of us are happy to purchase from. If you want niche games that retail niche publishers wouldn't or couldn't release, LRG is the way to go.

[Aussie2B]

Oceanhorn (PS4/Vita) and the standard edition of Plague Road (PS4/Vita) are up for sale today. All that's left of the first batch right now is PS4 copies of Plague Road, so check back at 6pm Eastern if you missed the others.

I grabbed the Vita copies myself, and my Bard's Gold finally showed up yesterday. I gotta say, this transition to trading cards is really confusing me. Are they supposed to replace the stickers or the postcards? Because I received a sticker and trading card with the Vita version of DariusBurst (no postcard), but with Bard's Gold, I received a postcard and a trading card (no sticker). And now I'm wondering if they left something out with one of these orders.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I don't think I'll be buying Plague Road. I haven't played it, but it doesn't really look to be something I'd enjoy.

I did buy both versions of Oceanhorn though. I'll probably play it on Vita and leave the PS4 version sealed. It looks rather good and I'm always looking for good Vita games.

[kupomogli]

Oceanhorn (PS4/Vita) and the standard edition of Plague Road (PS4/Vita) are up for sale today. All that's left of the first batch right now is PS4 copies of Plague Road, so check back at 6pm Eastern if you missed the others.

I grabbed the Vita copies myself, and my Bard's Gold finally showed up yesterday. I gotta say, this transition to trading cards is really confusing me. Are they supposed to replace the stickers or the postcards? Because I received a sticker and trading card with the Vita version of DariusBurst (no postcard), but with Bard's Gold, I received a postcard and a trading card (no sticker). And now I'm wondering if they left something out with one of these orders.

From what I've heard they're keeping the stickers and post cards, adding trading cards for people to trade. I got a sticker, a post card, and a trading card for Furi. Haven't received any of the other items I've ordered, on LRG when I logged in today to order Oceanhorn(only got the PS4 version, I only order on the second batch and the Vita version sold out in one minute) they're listed as unfulfilled so they haven't even been sent to be shipped yet. I don't care too much as I know I'll be getting them, but it's a bit ridiculous going on almost a month and hasn't shipped yet.

[Aussie2B]

I remember hearing them say at some point that the trading cards were to act as a replacement, since the copycat publishers were copying that as well, and they said that they had already printed cards and/or stickers for some games, so there would be a span of time when people be receiving the new trading cards and the old freebies. I just can't remember if the trading cards are intended to replace the postcards, the stickers, or both, and I have no idea if it's normal for Vita DariusBurst to not include a postcard or Bard's Gold to not include a sticker.

The whole "Fulfilled/Unfulfilled" thing on the site doesn't seem to be reliable anymore. When I logged in today to order, it still listed my Bard's Gold order as unfulfilled, despite that I received it yesterday.