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Thread: Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

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    Even as small as LRG's print runs are, I would argue that they're bigger under their business model than they would be otherwise, and long term, that's better for gamers and collectors. Unlimited open preorders for a certain span of time or small print runs where the total is hidden sell much slower and result in even smaller print runs than what LRG is putting out. Shovel Knight is one of the most popular indies out there, and it sold a mere 3000-some copies on Vita in the months that it was open for preorder. Luckily, they manufactured 5000 and continued to sell them until that stock ran out, but LRG would've been able to move 5000 easily and then some. More copies in existence should equal lower prices long term. You want to see ridiculous prices on the secondhand market? Forget LRG, look at games published by NISA where the only way to get a physical copy was through their own web store. Nobody knows how many copies were made of any of those, but they do generally take months to sell out, and looking at the quantities on eBay and what they sell for, they gotta be small runs, very possibly smaller than some of LRG's. A Rose in the Twilight didn't even have an ESRB rating anywhere on it, just like with LRG's releases, so you know they had to been cutting costs to a minimum and producing a very small quantity. Meanwhile, LRG easily moved 5000 copies of Ray Gigant, made by the same developer behind many of NISA's releases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Meanwhile, LRG easily moved 5000 copies of Ray Gigant, made by the same developer behind many of NISA's releases.
    Because LRG released their business model as super rare games only such and such amount printed, hurry and get yours now before they sell out. At first the print runs were pathetic, and by numbering the games, people with OCD are now trying to collect them all. You for example are trying to collect all the Vita games, others might be trying to collect all PS4 games, and there are many people who purchase every copy of both just so they have all the LRG releases.

    Many of these companies may not a much larger print than LRG, but their business model has never been about that. After seeing how profitable the LRG way of releasing games have been, Play Asia and Devolver Digital have jumped in on it as well, and regardless whether Bojay wants to call someone out for not being in the position that LRG are in but making a statement based on some pretty common knowledge, he's wrong. This is a pretty lucrative operation LRG is running and they're releasing as many games as possible because they know that they're manipulating collector's OCD tendencies. They know that if collector's don't purchase the games, then they'll still be able to sell them regardless to scalpers.

    As someone on the LRG forum pointed out, here's a post from Josh or Doug from somewhere. "Orders of 30 copies of either game will ship sealed in the original carton from Sony for uncirculated VGA grading (cartons are 30pcs)." LRG is all for the money and it's always been about the money, not the quality of their releases. On their very own forum they have people making posts about how the majority of the content they've released being shovelware garbage, even many of the loyalists over there have dropped off and are tired of spending as much money as they have for games that just aren't very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by LimitedRunDouglas
    I'm not sure we watched the same video, they didn't seem to be fans. They also left a comment saying we release shit-tier games.
    Aside from the rare anomaly, I completely agree.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    Because LRG released their business model as super rare games only such and such amount printed, hurry and get yours now before they sell out. At first the print runs were pathetic, and by numbering the games, people with OCD are now trying to collect them all. You for example are trying to collect all the Vita games, others might be trying to collect all PS4 games, and there are many people who purchase every copy of both just so they have all the LRG releases.

    Many of these companies may not a much larger print than LRG, but their business model has never been about that. After seeing how profitable the LRG way of releasing games have been, Play Asia and Devolver Digital have jumped in on it as well, and regardless whether Bojay wants to call someone out for not being in the position that LRG are in but making a statement based on some pretty common knowledge, he's wrong. This is a pretty lucrative operation LRG is running and they're releasing as many games as possible because they know that they're manipulating collector's OCD tendencies. They know that if collector's don't purchase the games, then they'll still be able to sell them regardless to scalpers.

    As someone on the LRG forum pointed out, here's a post from Josh or Doug from somewhere. "Orders of 30 copies of either game will ship sealed in the original carton from Sony for uncirculated VGA grading (cartons are 30pcs)." LRG is all for the money and it's always been about the money, not the quality of their releases. On their very own forum they have people making posts about how the majority of the content they've released being shovelware garbage, even many of the loyalists over there have dropped off and are tired of spending as much money as they have for games that just aren't very good.



    Aside from the rare anomaly, I completely agree.
    It must be really sad to live with a worldview that only allows for the possibility that a company or a person can only be capable of being one specific thing at a time. LRG is a business. There is no doubt about that. They are also collectors and gamers and developers. As such, they balance a lot of competing interests to make their business model work. Just because a handful of anonymous people post something on a forum doesn't make it true. To LRG's credit, they don't censor their own forums or block people from Facebook or Twitter like a lot of companies. I notice you have posted on LRGs forums lately and you sure haven't taken the same obnoxious tone there that you are taking here.

    As for your other points, you keep claiming that people are dropping off and yet games keep selling out and the supply on Ebay remains about the same as it has always been, not more. In other words, LRG isn't drawing more scalpers and speculators and frankly, prices have stabilized to the point where if you actually miss a release, you can usually pick it up on the secondary market for not much more than MSRP. I'm pretty sure there is something going on with you personally as you are very adamant in your criticism and yet you seem ready to pick up some of their releases. It must be some type of self hate or loathing. Maybe it's time for you to take a break from the forums and get some therapy. It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help.

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    Of course it's about money. They're a business, not a charity. I really don't care how they market their company and releases. If you think a company is blowing steam up your ass, you don't have to believe it. All you have to do is decide if you want the product or not, regardless of how it's been hyped up. All I personally care about here is games coming out physically that would otherwise remain digital-only, and I'd like them to get as many copies produced as financially viable. If hyping them up as "OMG RARE!!1!" means that an extra 1000 or even more can be produced compared to if they were sold via unlimited preorders within a time frame, then I'm all for it. The more copies made, the more likely a game is to remain somewhat reasonably priced on the used market in the years and decades to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    Because LRG released their business model as super rare games only such and such amount printed, hurry and get yours now before they sell out. At first the print runs were pathetic, and by numbering the games, people with OCD are now trying to collect them all. You for example are trying to collect all the Vita games, others might be trying to collect all PS4 games, and there are many people who purchase every copy of both just so they have all the LRG releases.
    For the record, I'm not OCD about it, and I do not remotely give a shit about having a "full LRG set". If I did, I wouldn't have stopped getting both PS4 and Vita copies of the multiplatform releases (stopped starting with Skullgirls), and I wouldn't have stopped getting their PS4-only releases (starting with Strafe). I also would've picked up The Silver Case if I cared about having every last LRG release. The only reason I'm getting all the Vita releases is because I collect for Vita in general. It's my favorite system this gen, and it doesn't have a huge library of physical releases in general (there're probably roughly around 200 now). I pick up every US Vita game or LE that's only available for a limited time, whether they're coming from LRG, NISA, IFI, Fangamer, Gaijinworks, etc. On that note, I could rant all day about how scummy Rice Digital is and how I hate dealing with them to get PQube's overpriced US Vita LEs that have to be imported to acquire. No company is perfect, including LRG, and I do have some issues with LRG (like the double standard with the DariusBurst pricing), but overall, I don't have many complaints. The games are cheap, easy to buy, and most on Vita have been decent, in my opinion. I've opened and played a least a little of every LRG Vita release (minus Volume, as my copy is still in limbo with Skullgirls), and very few have struck me as being flat out bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    It's funny you should talk about human nature because in my experience it's always the people who have never run a successful business or even tried anything entrepreneurial in their entire lives that seem the quickest to want to play armchair CEO. LRG is a business that happens to be run by gamers, developers and collectors. You can opine all you want about their relative merit in your personal world view, but the rest of us don't share your narrow mindedness and are just happy to be getting games in physical format that would have no such chance otherwise.

    Your identification level with LRGames seems a bit too high. Worse is the fact, however, that you engage in completely unreasonable and nonsensical personal attacks. If a guy reacts to very normal posts by accusing others as narrow-minded, obnoxious and claims to speak for everyone and even suggests therapy and a break from forums, isn't that...lemme think...narrow-minded, obnoxious, overly engaged in forums and in need of therapy?
    Last edited by lendelin; 06-15-2017 at 07:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Even as small as LRG's print runs are, I would argue that they're bigger under their business model than they would be otherwise, and long term, that's better for gamers and collectors. Unlimited open preorders for a certain span of time or small print runs where the total is hidden sell much slower and result in even smaller print runs than what LRG is putting out. Shovel Knight is one of the most popular indies out there, and it sold a mere 3000-some copies on Vita in the months that it was open for preorder. Luckily, they manufactured 5000 and continued to sell them until that stock ran out, but LRG would've been able to move 5000 easily and then some. More copies in existence should equal lower prices long term. You want to see ridiculous prices on the secondhand market? Forget LRG, look at games published by NISA where the only way to get a physical copy was through their own web store. Nobody knows how many copies were made of any of those, but they do generally take months to sell out, and looking at the quantities on eBay and what they sell for, they gotta be small runs, very possibly smaller than some of LRG's. A Rose in the Twilight didn't even have an ESRB rating anywhere on it, just like with LRG's releases, so you know they had to been cutting costs to a minimum and producing a very small quantity. Meanwhile, LRG easily moved 5000 copies of Ray Gigant, made by the same developer behind many of NISA's releases.

    Your question about the production numbers of smaller publishers is very important and very interesting. I'd be very interested in the production numbers of Lumo and Teslagrad and other games by small publishers. If (!) your assumption of even fewer numbers for these games than Limited Run markets and makes public is correct, your reasoning has some merit. However, we know that rarity hype doesn't bring very often the prices down overtime, but at least the increased distribution for these games would be positive. Unfortunately we don't know the production numbers. What if the games by SOEDESCO have larger production numbers? And wouldn't it be incredibly deceiving and ironic that the marketing with limited production numbers by Limited Run diverts from the low production numbers of potentially future rare games?


    I say it anyway for some time now that in all likelihood the pricey and potentially rare games will not be among the LRG set of games but among the games which fly under the radar.


    I still stand by my opinion about the publishing model of LRG. It is actually very easy. On the one hand you have a marketing- and sales-model which is based on the hype about potential rarity which allowed LR (Mighty Rabbits) to survive facing bankruptcy. On the other hand you have smaller publishers which pick up digital games on physical releases and/or give smaller developers a chance to go physical in a very straightforward honest way: They produce games and try to sell it without the Limited Run nonsense. I ALWAYS will prefer the latter model.


    The reasoning that the Limited Run-way is the only way to survive or that we should accept the obvious disadvantage of their outrageous model because this way they make profits and can produce more games is just not true. Additionally, the publishing model of Limited Run puts them in a very comfortable situation of comparative and competitive advantage over their competitors, also smaller developers, which struggle for survival as well.


    SOEDESCO and others prove otherwise. This is a small publisher in Rotterdam, founded by two guys with a gaming background (very similar to Limited Run) which are publishing great games of smaller developers who wouldn't have had an opportunity to go physical otherwise. They don't benefit from marketing hype of the worst kind exploiting the unfortunate situation for gamers today facing ebay scalpers (which Limited Run does, see their last email); instead, they just produce and sell their games BECAUSE they have a very good grip on supply and demand which obviously Limited Run hasn't since they have to rely on rarity-hype. I can still get their games for $20 and don't have to go on ebay to buy them overpriced for $30 to $200.


    As a gamer and collector, I can't see even ONE advantage for us in the Limited Run-model. The accessibility to their games is there, granted, but only for ten minutes (!!) to 36 hours after release for a retail price and afterwards from slightly to outrageously overpriced on ebay. Seriously, which model do you prefer?


    For the argument that smaller publishers cannot produce a lot of games without the Limited Run-way , here is an excerpt of the most recent update of my personal list of games by smaller publishers (just for SOEDESCO!):


    World to the West (July 14, Soedesco, adventure-puzzle in the tradition of Zelda)

    Aerea (June 30, Soedesco, CollEd $40, action RPG)
    8-BitArmies (July 18, Soedesco, CollEd $40, RTS)
    Rogue Stormers (June 9, Soedesco, Run 'n gun, 2D sidescroller)

    Four games in two months, that's certainly not bad.

    Maybe SOEDESCO and other small publishers would do better in this limited niche market if not for the outrageous marketing of Limited Run?

    I respect SOEDESCO and so many other smaller publishers who take risks and go physical with games from smaller developers. I dislike Limited Run because I dislike their risk-minimizing publishing model at the cost of gamers and collectors. SOEDESCO does a service to gamers and collectors and I hope they will do even better than they do so far.
    Last edited by lendelin; 06-15-2017 at 08:09 PM.

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    What I say is not assumption, and we do know production numbers. Perhaps not with SOEDESCO and NISA, but with others. We know the print run size of every LRG release, and we know they all sold out with ease (one can even look up specifically how quick each sold out). Other companies using other models, like unlimited preorders open for a span of weeks/months, have reported exactly the numbers preordered and manufactured. Heck, we even know that under LRG as well, as anybody can look at the preorder figures for The Silver Case and Skullgirls. The former resulting in LRG's second smallest print run ever, and the latter failing to sell as many Vita copies as the usual LRG business model easily moves in a single day. Shovel Knight was another telling example I gave. Then there are also Gaijinworks's releases. In the case of Class of Heroes 2, Class of Heroes 2G, and Summon Night 5, physical versions of all three hinged on people pledging their intent to buy (and it was reported that the actual sales figures were always lower than the pledges). I believe the highest goal they ever set was with Class of Heroes 2G, for which they wanted a mere 7000 pledges, and they failed to even get that, resulting in a higher price point to allow for a physical print run to happen. Class of Heroes 2 and Summon Night 5 succeeded in hitting their goals, but after a laborious struggle, just to hit print run sizes that LRG can sell in a single day without an issue, with games that aren't indies, aren't import-friendly, and offer a lot more content and polish than the average LRG release. It illustrates just how poorly unlimited preorders work for niche games like these and that publishers have to figure out some way to light a fire under people's butts to buy.

    A lot of your comments are completely contradictory. The pricey and potentially rare games will not be among the LRG set, yet rarity hype doesn't bring down prices over time and LRG's releases are already overpriced on eBay? So which is it? I really think you should actually spend some time looking up prices of LRG releases on eBay, and not just the first few. Like I said before, most of their releases range $10 plus or minus LRG's price. But, no, apparently getting them for the same or even less than the LRG price is still overpriced, whereas $20 is a great price for similar games from other developers. Really? As for rarity hype, collectors are going to barely remember and not even care 10+ years from now. All that's going to matter in terms of value on the secondhand market is demand, based on how favorably the games are regarded, and cold, hard print run numbers. More copies to go around is ALWAYS better, even if a game with fewer numbers wasn't hyped up as a rarity at release while the game with more was. Collectors are smarter than to be deceived like that, and the game with fewer copies will be more costly, if the two games had otherwise identical levels of demand.

    If you're talking preferences and what's ideal, you're preaching to the choir. I don't think anybody here would claim they prefer LRG's business model over games getting widely available regular retail releases that we can still pick up years later, perhaps even on markdown for <$20. But what's ideal isn't necessarily what's reality. Huge amounts of games are digital-only these days, and they'll remain that way because they're not financially viable under the standard methods of releasing physical games. Some aren't even financially viable under the methods of the likes of SOEDESCO. If you believe that, if LRG and its copycats went *poof* right now, or if they had never existed in the first place, that the likes of SOEDESCO would be happy and willing to release every game LRG has released and would be able to turn a profit on all of them, you're living in a dream world. There's also the little fact ignored here that none of the companies you listed off are producing physical Vita games for the US. Clearly their business model doesn't work for the more costly to produce Vita games. So should we dream of a gaming world in which LRG and similar companies don't exist and just give a big F-U to Vita fans? What you have to understand here is that LRG didn't come into existence to steal a piece of the pie away from SOEDESCO and others like them, but to serve an untapped market. The fact that Vita versions of their releases usually sell out faster than PS4 versions, despite the much smaller user base, is evident of that.
    Last edited by Aussie2B; 06-15-2017 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Your identification level with LRGames seems a bit too high. Worse is the fact, however, that you engage in completely unreasonable and nonsensical personal attacks. If a guy reacts to very normal posts by accusing others as narrow-minded, obnoxious and claims to speak for everyone and even suggests therapy and a break from forums, isn't that...lemme think...narrow-minded, obnoxious, overly engaged in forums and in need of therapy?
    Not even sure what that is supposed to mean. I buy and collect games from all of the publishers that release them physically. In fact, I collect on all of the current and past console platforms going back to the first Odyssey. LRG is releasing stuff that there is no way publishers pursuing a retail release model would even consider. They also have kept their typical release price reasonable at $25 and they have been great about communicating with their customers about their business and how they operate. I get that you feel like every publisher should just print massive quantities and/or take open preorders for months at a time, but that model hasn't resulted in any of the LRG competitors releasing more titles or even getting close to the volume and general quality of releases LRG has put out month after month.

    I mean Soedesco has released fewer games in the US in the past three years than LRG has released in just a few recent months. I own all of the Soedesco games and I generally find them to be of only average quality (i.e. I'm glad to own them physically, but they haven't blown me away gameplay wise). Soedesco also hasn't figured out a viable way to release on Vita in the US, despite doing so with Teslagrad in Europe. By the way Rogue Stormers has been delayed by six weeks and now has a release date of mid-July. Soedesco seems unable to hit their projected dates on a regular basis. Other companies like Gaijinworks have repeatedly missed release dates on one title at a time by months. IAM8Bit and Fangamer have taken months to sell through their quantities of the very few titles they have released and as a result, haven't been very active in securing new releases. I mean it's great that Fangamer is doing Undetale and I will buy it on all the platforms they release it on, but it's just one release of literally thousands that deserve a physical release.

    As for my reaction to the repeated rants against LRG, it's just a matter of being tired of the constant and unfounded criticism by people who have no idea let alone ability to run a business. I have personally started several successful businesses over the years and a couple of not so successful ones. As such. I appreciate the discipline and sacrifice it requires to get a new venture off the ground. LRG has made a go of something numerous other companies have tried over the years with varying success, all while being gamers and collectors and developers. People are free to disagree with their approach and not buy their games, but this constant ranting about people having OCD or about how LRG is an evil company destroying everything that's great about gaming is just uncalled for.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 06-15-2017 at 10:55 PM.

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    From a business perspective, I really appreciate what LRG do. They were smart enough to make the connection that the same people who want physical releases are generally of a collector mindset. So, they limit losses and overhead by producing measured, easily salable lots that even a niche market can support. The challenge they now face is simply staying relevant by keeping the quality of releases up while also releasing enough titles to keep profitable.

    Is this a conspiracy to make collectors spend money? Of course. That's what all business and marketing is by its very nature. Appeal to an audience to get their money. It's not evil. It's the same thing literally every business on the planet is trying to do: make money by making you feel like you need that good or service. They have a quality business model that's right for the time. If they lose consumer faith by diluting the quality of their releases, that's on them. If they keep going for decades as is, awesome for them. They give an overall small consumer group what they want in a potentially sustainable format where they're experiencing success. It's working, and there's nothing wrong with it.

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    I really hope we'll get preorder numbers and print run sizes on Undertale too, assuming that'll have unlimited preorders for months like Shovel Knight's physical Vita release. If I remember correctly, it was Yacht Club Games, not Fangamer themselves, who shared the info on Shovel Knight, so maybe we'll have to just hope that Toby Fox is willing to divulge. I'm really wondering if Undertale with be another super popular indie that underperforms compared to the sales LRG can pull. Granted, this will be the first physical release of any kind for Undertale, right? Whereas Shovel Knight already had regular retail physical releases on other platforms before the physical Vita release. So Undertale could have an advantage there.

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    @Bojay1997: That sounds much more reasonable with good reasoning! Thanks! I just dislike a poisenous tone and attacks like there is a war going on.

    @celerystalker: Not everything successful is also good for gamers and collectors.

    @Aussie2B: Well we won't come together on this one! In essence, it is very simple. You say, I prefer THIS with all its disadvantages (The LR Model) over fewer games. I say I prefer fewer games over the LR business model because of its disadvantages (in particular the successful precedent). Let's hope I'm wrong although the successful model always gets copied.

    Overall, I'm just so glad that we get these kind of games on physical discs. I'm asking for this for a long time now, and back then I was really glad that we finally got Limbo on disc. Although I have the feeling sometimes it is almost too many looking at the long list of games by smaller developers.

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    So in other words, you would give a big F-U to Vita fans who want physical releases if you could.

    As someone who is actually buying these games, I fail to see how LRG is hurting me, as a gamer and collector, or creating any kind of "disadvantageous" situation for me. The price points are usually reasonable, considering a typical Vita release is $40 and a typical PS4 release $60, I haven't had any problems ordering them, I'm getting an opportunity to buy games in a physical format that I otherwise wouldn't have, and I've been enjoying playing through them. But, okay, keep trying to tell me that this is somehow bad for me, as a gamer and collector. Nobody is going to copy this business model for games that can sell as regular retail releases because why would anyone sell fewer copies and make less money when they could sell and make a lot more? The only people copying LRG are companies releasing the same kinds of games as LRG, ones that aren't financially viable for standard physical releases and would stay digital-only without LRG and its copycats. The whole reason LRG is successful, to the point that multiple copycat companies are springing up and developers are flocking to them for help in producing physical versions of their games, is because it's working for both gamers/collectors and developers. You don't think any of these developers tried getting physical print runs done through other companies, only to be turned down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Nobody is going to copy this business model for games that can sell as regular retail releases because why would anyone sell fewer copies and make less money when they could sell and make a lot more?
    Because they're not making a lot more, they're not making more at all. Shovel Knight only got 3,642 preorders and this was opened for awhile. If these games were released through Amazon and sold traditionally, these games wouldn't sell nearly as quickly as they have and we'd probably still see many of the games up there to this day. The announcement of how many were printed, that you can't ever get a copy again unless you buy one right now along with the launch of earlier titles which were less than 2000 and sold out within seconds, the idea of "gotta have them all" with them being numbered. They're feeding into a lot of different collector's tendencies. That's why you see LRG selling 4000 copies per game lately while an open preorder that was available for months can't even reach that.

    This is the reason that there's so many "copy cats." Because the business model is more profitable than releasing these games at a more traditional release. Why print and leave 10,000 up for sale on Amazon for years, when you can get 4000 sold in a few days and then publish other games in quick succession? You see a very quick return on your investment and immediately invest most of that money on new product. The more traditional way, you have a lot of money sitting as unsold product and can't move forward until you get that money back and while waiting for returns you're losing money every day(you know, due to life.)
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Uhhhh...that kinda went over your head there? That was exactly the point I was making. You're telling me things I already know and already said. Go back and reread this discussion. To paraphrase, *if* a game can sell more through a standard retail release, no one would ever use the LRG business model. If a game can't be financially viable as a standard retail release, then LRG's business model is about the only option, short of methods that have proven to be not as successful and result in fewer releases and lower print runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Uhhhh...that kinda went over your head there? That was exactly the point I was making. You're telling me things I already know and already said. Go back and reread this discussion. To paraphrase, *if* a game can sell more through a standard retail release, no one would ever use the LRG business model. If a game can't be financially viable as a standard retail release, then LRG's business model is about the only option, short of methods that have proven to be not as successful and result in fewer releases and lower print runs.
    Then what was your reasoning behind the comment that I quoted?

    The business model is nice when more games come out, but it's not good for collectors. What happens when SRG and Play Asia are releasing the amount of games at the speed that LRG is releasing them? Three or four games per month if not more. For those that have the income sure, but how is it good for collectors when the reason it sells out as quick as it does is because you've got people who wouldn't purchase them otherwise and the entire business model is making money because it's sold to scalpers just as much as it's sold to collectors. Five games a week per publisher, each item numbered, etc, for those collector's who don't want to pay Ebay prices in the future. 15 games in one month would be $450 a month and that doesn't even include the time they have to waste by being there at a very specific time.

    Regardless if you think the games that LRG is good now, many of them aren't but whatever. There's only a finite amount of games, you can't rerelease a "good(ha") game that's already been released. Soon they'll move onto the truly shit games when the better ones they've been able to publish have already been acquired. There's going to be a time when even the most apologetic LRG fans get burnt out on what LRG is doing and this business model isn't going to be viable for ANY company. It was a great idea at the start and LRG is the one that started it, but they're driving it into the ground. That's my reason for wanting more quality even if they do the same model with less games, because eventually what is actually a good business model is going to get ruined for the sake of greed.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 06-16-2017 at 03:36 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Reread what you quoted:

    Nobody is going to copy this business model for games that can sell as regular retail releases because why would anyone sell fewer copies and make less money when they could sell and make a lot more?
    Understand now?

    As for the rate of releases, 1) LRG is going to slow down, 2) nobody ever said that anybody must buy every single one of them. If somebody can't afford to buy everything but is so OCD that it's going to crush them if they don't maintain a full set, then they probably shouldn't be collecting in the first place. Any sensible collector will shop within their means. You can't use companies offering "too many" products as a scapegoat for unhealthy thinking and habits. It'd be like somebody complaining that the PS1 got 1200 releases compared to the N64's 400.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Reread what you quoted:
    I guess I misread it.

    As for the rate of releases, 1) LRG is going to slow down, 2) nobody ever said that anybody must buy every single one of them. If somebody can't afford to buy everything but is so OCD that it's going to crush them if they don't maintain a full set, then they probably shouldn't be collecting in the first place. Any sensible collector will shop within their means. You can't use companies offering "too many" products as a scapegoat for unhealthy thinking and habits. It'd be like somebody complaining that the PS1 got 1200 releases compared to the N64's 400.
    The difference between PS1 and N64 releases or any generation of games while you're in that generation is that you have years to purchase the games and most games will depreciate in value. You only have minutes to days to get LRG, SRG, and Play-Asia games, so there's a difference.

    Additionally, as I've said, if people get burnt out on the idea and stop buying games due to worse quality games, companies might due away with this business model. I'm aware LRG stated they'll do less releases, but an additional 17 announcements on top of the many announcements that haven't been released yet doesn't sound like they're going to slow down with releases.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Nothing is stopping anybody from getting older LRG releases. They don't go *poof* and disappear off the face of the Earth. Yes, they're not available directly from LRG anymore, but they're still out there and available. I can go on eBay right now and buy sealed copies of One Way Heroics and Thomas Was Alone for even less than what I paid to LRG.

    Also, I think the comparison to PS1/N64 is fair because, in any generation, there are a minority of games where supplies dry up very quickly, before they have any opportunity to be available from retailers for years or experience any markdowns. LRG's releases are just another form of that. I remember wanting to buy Valkyrie Profile on PS1 a mere four months past the release date, and I had to call up every store in town that sold video games to find one single store that still had one single copy, and I had to pay the full $40 MSRP for it. At least with LRG, one has the advantage in knowing that the games may be tougher to get later on. With Valkyrie Profile, I just got lucky. I didn't know it was going to be so hard to track down at that point, and had I waited longer, I probably wouldn't have been available to find a copy at any brick & mortar store, I probably would've put it out of mind, and then I would've been forced to fork out a lot of cash down the road on eBay for a used copy.

    I'm not even going to address your skepticism of LRG slowing down because we already went over this and established that it'll take some time to see effect. That's how businesses work. You don't always see immediate results. I mean, Bard's Gold was signed in 2015, for crying out loud. So you're clearly intentionally plugging your ears on that.

    If LRG and copycats eventually fold, it's no problem to me. I'll get what I can out of them while I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    @celerystalker: Not everything successful is also good for gamers and collectors.
    That's kind of the whole deal, though... it's not about what's good for us. It's about a successful business model, which offers at least a few perks for players. Their goal is to keep customers happy enough to keep spending money. They may even have some good intentions; that's an individual-by-individual situation. However, altruism is secondary at best in business.

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    @Aussie2B: I didn't intend to respond because in your adamant defense of LRG you hit a nonsensical level of someone who is hard to reason with and seems almost to be a spokesperson for a company. But one of your comments really bothered me.


    You are defending a businessmodel in which a gamer and collector can only hope to get the game for retail price (in the first ten minutes to 24 hours) and later on for a couple(!) of games still for retail but for the vast majority of the games for 50% up to 600% more expensive. Your answer: Every collector has to shop within their means. This is a trivial truth, and certainly applies to all of us. Then you say if a collector can't afford a complete Limited Run set he shouldn't collect in the first place.


    That's pretty arrogant. It is not only about the entire set, but about a lot of single games.You and I are probably in a very good position to afford Limited Run games. I could buy the entire set tonight without any problems, I'm old and settled and have the means to buy pretty much the stuff I want. But think about others with more limited means or younger guys. A couple of months ago I talked to two students who are interested in older games and have a PS4 because students know that I have a small collection of videogames. Both played the old Oddworlds still on the PS1 and one of them wanted to buy New N Tasty and was amazed that it was around $200. They are college students, they don't have a lot of money. What should I have told them: You shouldn't buy this game and collect in the first place?


    I recommended Lumo which still can be had for a bit under $20 and is a fantastic (!) game. If this game would have been marketed with the Limited Run-nonsense, I guarantee you it would fetch at least around $100. What is better for gamers and collectors? To get a game for over a year and more for retail or less, or Limited Run games which are sold overpriced based on rarity hype on ebay?


    Furthermore, did the mindset of collectors change in the last twenty years? Wasn't it always a fun part of collecting to hunt for games and get a great deal and find games cheap? Didn't we go to thrift stores and garage sales? The collecting scene changed, I know that very well, but to defend now a business model revolving around rarity-hype which factors in ebay scalping (!!) resulting in overpriced games goes very far. Good for Limited Run, it is a successful business model, bad for gamers and collectors.


    (And no, it won't be fun! Just in case you come up with the reasoning that it is even MORE fun to find with luck in a couple of years really cheap a $300 Oddworld)


    In your adamant defense of LR you hit the bottom of the reasoning barrel. You defend LR by saying every published game has the potential to be rare and pricey after release. This is a trivial truth. It is so trivial that it doesn't say much pro or contra LR. Isn't this like defending a drunk driver by saying that every sobre driver can cause accidents too? (which is also certainly true.) But then you go even further and say at least with Limited Run games we are aware to be cautious about possible future rarity. Isn't this like saying that at least with drunk drivers we know that we have to be careful?


    Look, it is actually pretty easy, we don't need sideshows and distractions and questionable reasoning. Just answer this one Q:


    Which of the following two businessmodels do you prefer as a gamer and collector? 1) the Limited Run model which gives gamers and collectors limited accessibilty (ten minutes to 24 hours) to get games for retail price, and later on to get these games as a rule for 50% to 600% the retail price on ebay. (Mind you, ebay scalping clearly is part of the businessmodel as LR itself demonstrated); 2) Let's call it the Soedesco-model of so many smaller publishers which publish games of smaller developers and/or so far only digital on physical disc like Limited Run and just sell it, no marketing with limited numbers and rarity hype, access for months and years for retail price and cheaper than the retail price as a rule.


    You avoided answering the Q so far by pointing to LR or the other publishers individually, but never answered the Q about the comparison of the two models.


    Limited Run could do it for PS4 games (and the Vita!) like the other small publishers do. No problem there. But their model is risk-minimizing at the cost of consumers. Why doesn't LR publish Vita games without this rarity nonsense?


    That the second model works is obvious. It isn't an utopian model in an ideal fantasy world. The proof is in the pudding, otherwise Soedesco and many others would not publish more games than ever and would have gone bankrupt years ago. If you look at the DP-list of games of indie/small developers physical releases it is obvious that Limited Run aren't the holy knights in shiny armor who provide us with water in a desert. On the contrary, we are flooded with these games in the meantime.


    Play Asia and Reserve Games (or whatever their name is) step in the same murky water in the meantime like LR. It is nonsense except for Limited Run itself. To euphemistically sell this nonsense as a service to gamers and collectors takes a lot of chuzpe.

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