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Thread: Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Just a reality check:

    Jotun was sold out this morning after 5 Minutes (!). The second batch in the the evening sold out after a couple of minutes.

    But don't worry if someone of you missed the 5-minute window. These games just don't disappear 'pouf' and are not available anymore. You can still buy Jotun already on ebay for $60 to $90. It already sold from $45 to $90. A wonderful service to gamers from a company which is dedicated to preserve digital-only games and make it easily available to all of us who have the time and money to afford them.

    LR hit the nail on its head when they gave us the advice to head over to their website before we pay lots of money on ebay. LR has truly gamers and collectors in mind, no surprise, they are gamers and collectors themselves.

    It is very important in this day and age to support a fledgling small company like LR which would face bankruptcy if not for this sales-model and their releases of 7 games in one month. I am very sure they would not be viable anymore like 505 games, THQ Nordic, Soedesco, Rising Star and so many others which are all doomed and hardly sell any games. I have a measly 123 games on my 'to-buy-'list from these smaller publishers which sell their games in a regular fashion, and I own already around 40 of them.

    LR, however, in order to survive has to sell their games with the hype about rarity (which appeals to the collector in all of us) and ebay scalping which they considered in their marketing from the getgo.

    After LR sold (...out, of course) Rive, Bard's Gold and Jotun this month already, in one week NeuroVoider and Drive! Drive! Drive! will be for sale; and one week later Plague Road and Oceanhorn will be sold. This makes 7 different games this month alone (!), 10 games for two platforms, not considering the pre-order for Lawbreakers.

    Sure, you don't have to buy them all, but be aware to get the games you want from LR and not from ebay. Like a well-trained dog you should sit at your laptop at 10am Eastern Time and always be aware of the time! There is no rest for the wicked. Everyone of these numerous games are still unique and will be rare one day! It is like with us human beings: Everyone of us is an individual and unique worldwide, don't worry that this uniqueness applies to all of us individuals which makes us very common and regular editions.

    I am very sure that the other small publishers look at LR with admiration. I am very sure the LR-salesmodel does not cut into their business in this niche market for gamers and collectors who all have limited budgets. If the other small publishers will truly discover their altruistic gene, however, we'll soon have hopefully more companies like Limited Run in order to serve us gamers and collectors well. We will be all one happy family getting more digital games on physical discs watching small sales-windows and enjoying ebay scalpers afterwards.

    It is still up to us which games we buy and where we buy it, so no one is restrained in their freedom and restricted in their choices. It is a great service overall which outweighs small pittiful disadvantages; and if we have all these choices, who dares to be critical about the LR-salesmodel since we are not forced to buy anything? If a lot of gamers and ebay scalpers buy these games and make LR a success and ebay scalpers happy we'll soon have a number of smaller developers following in the LR-footsteps. All will be good.
    For someone who claims not to support or care about LRG, you seem awfully aware of every detail of their business. Good news though, LRG's contracts are not exclusive after release, so your beloved THQ, Sodesco, 505 and Rising Star are free to approach the same developers just like Play Asia did with Soldner-X and release as many copies of each LRG release as they want. Maybe you should help them do that and invest your own time and money since you know so much about business and such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    For someone who claims not to support or care about LRG, you seem awfully aware of every detail of their business. Good news though, LRG's contracts are not exclusive after release, so your beloved THQ, Sodesco, 505 and Rising Star are free to approach the same developers just like Play Asia did with Soldner-X and release as many copies of each LRG release as they want. Maybe you should help them do that and invest your own time and money since you know so much about business and such.
    I critisized LRG, that means I care a lot about them, doesn't it? Based on this discussion I looked closer at LR and the closer I looked, the worse it gets.

    The old and repeated reasoning that the LR deals are not exclusive and others can follow up with publications is true but nonsensical defending the LR-salesmodel. In this small and limited market once a game is released means that it is over for a re-release (as a rule).

    I never loved companies. (Not even Nintendo) I'm not part of a fanbase nor do I identify with a company.

    The rest of your comment is cynical nonsense. (I love cynicism but only the kind which makes sense.)

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    One of the things I don't like is how some games have massive leadtimes while others seem to pop out out of nowhere.

    We've known about Drive Drive Drive for four of five months, while Jotun only two or three weeks before.
    check out my classic gaming review site: http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/

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    Yeah, that gets annoying. It's more or less the developers' fault. LRG lets them decide when to reveal the physical run, and some wait till practically the last minute. And then with Jotun, there's their special request. With such a busy release schedule this summer, last Friday was about the only time they could squeeze in Jotun without anything else going up for sale. And the busy release schedule is also why Drive! Drive! Drive! kept getting put off. Too many other games that had to come out first for whatever reason, and LRG attempts (but kinda fails) to not throw too many games at buyers at once. It's really silly when you think about it because they've had the manufactured copies of Drive! Drive! Drive! in their hands for probably weeks now and it still hasn't been sold, meanwhile Jotun was sold and hasn't even been manufactured yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    I critisized LRG, that means I care a lot about them, doesn't it? Based on this discussion I looked closer at LR and the closer I looked, the worse it gets.

    The old and repeated reasoning that the LR deals are not exclusive and others can follow up with publications is true but nonsensical defending the LR-salesmodel. In this small and limited market once a game is released means that it is over for a re-release (as a rule).

    I never loved companies. (Not even Nintendo) I'm not part of a fanbase nor do I identify with a company.

    The rest of your comment is cynical nonsense. (I love cynicism but only the kind which makes sense.)
    Yes, you are seemingly obsessed with them as you have now posted in this thread multiple times with walls of text attacking them. I'm guessing you missed an early release and rather than try again, you're more content to just complain about them repeatedly.

    The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.

    Like I said, if there was such a massive market for retail or even more voluminous releases of these games, other companies could and would step up and do their own releases. I don't love companies either, but I also don't hate them. It's a waste of time and energy. I've said it before, but bitching about LRG is not going to change anything and if you don't like what they're doing, that's cool, but the rest of us are actually enjoying a lot of games that would never get a physical release otherwise.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 07-18-2017 at 12:19 PM.

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    Not from LRG, but I figured those who buy LRG releases would probably be interested that Undertale for PS4/Vita/PC (both standard copies and collector's editions) are now available for preorder from Fangamer:

    https://www.fangamer.com/products/undertale-ps4-vita

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Yes, you are seemingly obsessed with them as you have now posted in this thread multiple times with walls of text attacking them. I'm guessing you missed an early release and rather than try again, you're more content to just complain about them repeatedly.
    I have lots of weaknesses, obsession was never one of them! Btw, insinuations are cheap and don't contribute a thing to a substantial diuscussion. Rather, they are a sign of quitting reasoning.

    Nope, I never missed an early release because I only tried ONCE. I bought only ONE LR game, namely Dariusburst for the PS4 after I got it from PlayAsia a bit cheaper w/o limited production numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.
    This is a very convenient 10-minute-sales window. Incredible. Thought about others whose time schedule is not as flexible as yours? And doesn't successful ebay scalping contradict your notion that even 5minute-sales windows are convenient and not a big obstacle for a purchase for many?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Like I said, if there was such a massive market for retail or even more voluminous releases of these games, other companies could and would step up and do their own releases. I don't love companies either, but I also don't hate them. It's a waste of time and energy. I've said it before, but bitching about LRG is not going to change anything and if you don't like what they're doing, that's cool, but the rest of us are actually enjoying a lot of games that would never get a physical release otherwise.
    Back to square 1. This reasoning works only if you ignore a dozen small publishers who put digital only games from small developers on disc. And no, they are not on the edge of bankruptcy as you once said, and no, they are not government subsidized and are not non-profit, as you once suggested.

    I merely crtisize the LR salesmodel for what it is, bad for gamers and bad for collectors. Hyppocritical PR-babble from LR doesn't change a thing that this is a company centered around rarity hype and even uses ebay scalping as a threat to sell their games.

    Your notion that you and others are free to buy games and I'm free not to buy games, is a given and trivial. You are free to buy, I am free to buy, you can refuse to buy like me, you can disagree with me and vice versa, we are all free and lay in chains. These trivialities are used by soft dictators to suppress dissenting opinions and dont make sense.

    What kind of an attitude is this? I critisize a novel and get the answer 'No one forces you to buy and read it!' I critisize a salesmodel of VW, and the defense is 'No one forces you to buy their cars!' I critisize a game and you say 'No one forces you to buy it and play it. Let us others enjoy it!' I critisize a snakeoil salesman and you say 'no one forces you to buy the snake oil.'

    This kind of reasoning is meaningless and is only used to shut down a discussion because you can't stand disagreements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.
    Oh good, you have a time schedule that permits you to make those purchases on time.
    Not everybody has that luxury.

    Not to mention it's a "good for gamers" business when you are threatened to buy games now or pay ebay scalper prices later, should you, in case later decide you actually WANT the game. Completely ridiculous that anobody WOULDN'T have their mind made up about whether they want to purchase it BEFORE it's released, isn't it?
    Do they have an option where you can give them your bank account number so they can bill you for every purchase to expedite the process of blindly buying everything they release? :P
    Last edited by SparTonberry; 07-19-2017 at 02:11 AM.

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    I decided to stop buying their PS4 releases specifically because I concluded that, if I change my mind on any and decide I want it later on, I feel confident that the vast majority of what's coming out these days I could later buy on eBay for around the same price or only slightly more for a sealed copy or wait for an opened one and get an even better deal. Personally, I don't mind much if I end up having to pay an extra 10-20 bucks. Unless somebody is psychic, that's gonna happen all the time with game shopping regardless. I'll wait too long to buy a game, and it'll end up more expensive than had I bought it earlier. Or I'll think a game is at a good price and I'll snatch it up, only to see it get marked down even further. That's just life.

    Anyway, more interesting, LRG announced that Ys Origin is coming August 25, and the same day will have another unannounced Japanese RPG (I think multiplatform; it's definitely on Vita either way). I'm really eager to find out what it is. It's a shot in the dark, but I've been hoping that maybe LRG could sign a deal with Kemco and get some of their retro-style RPGs (the ones first developed for mobile and then ported elsewhere) physically released. I enjoyed End of Serenity and still have to get around to playing Mystic Chronicles. Those I just bought digitally since they were PSP releases and definitely aren't going to come out physically. But the PS4 and Vita have Asdivine Hearts and Revenant Saga, and I've been holding off on buying on the off chance of physical releases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SparTonberry View Post
    Oh good, you have a time schedule that permits you to make those purchases on time.
    Not everybody has that luxury.

    Not to mention it's a "good for gamers" business when you are threatened to buy games now or pay ebay scalper prices later, should you, in case later decide you actually WANT the game. Completely ridiculous that anobody WOULDN'T have their mind made up about whether they want to purchase it BEFORE it's released, isn't it?
    Do they have an option where you can give them your bank account number so they can bill you for every purchase to expedite the process of blindly buying everything they release? :P
    There are two purchase windows for each game eight hours apart. Unless you literally work in a prison or some environment where you have no ability to check your phone for literally two minutes, there is really no way that anyone can claim they don't have the ability to purchase the games. Moreover, not every game sells out instantly or even within a day or two. I mean how hard is it to make up your mind about whether or not you want to own a particular game, the majority of which have been available digitally for months or in some cases years?

    By the way, if they had a subscription service, I would sign up in a heartbeat. I have subscribed to Indiebox since the beginning and I love it.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 07-19-2017 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    I have lots of weaknesses, obsession was never one of them! Btw, insinuations are cheap and don't contribute a thing to a substantial diuscussion. Rather, they are a sign of quitting reasoning.

    Nope, I never missed an early release because I only tried ONCE. I bought only ONE LR game, namely Dariusburst for the PS4 after I got it from PlayAsia a bit cheaper w/o limited production numbers.



    This is a very convenient 10-minute-sales window. Incredible. Thought about others whose time schedule is not as flexible as yours? And doesn't successful ebay scalping contradict your notion that even 5minute-sales windows are convenient and not a big obstacle for a purchase for many?



    Back to square 1. This reasoning works only if you ignore a dozen small publishers who put digital only games from small developers on disc. And no, they are not on the edge of bankruptcy as you once said, and no, they are not government subsidized and are not non-profit, as you once suggested.

    I merely crtisize the LR salesmodel for what it is, bad for gamers and bad for collectors. Hyppocritical PR-babble from LR doesn't change a thing that this is a company centered around rarity hype and even uses ebay scalping as a threat to sell their games.

    Your notion that you and others are free to buy games and I'm free not to buy games, is a given and trivial. You are free to buy, I am free to buy, you can refuse to buy like me, you can disagree with me and vice versa, we are all free and lay in chains. These trivialities are used by soft dictators to suppress dissenting opinions and dont make sense.

    What kind of an attitude is this? I critisize a novel and get the answer 'No one forces you to buy and read it!' I critisize a salesmodel of VW, and the defense is 'No one forces you to buy their cars!' I critisize a game and you say 'No one forces you to buy it and play it. Let us others enjoy it!' I critisize a snakeoil salesman and you say 'no one forces you to buy the snake oil.'

    This kind of reasoning is meaningless and is only used to shut down a discussion because you can't stand disagreements.
    Again, please explain to me who this group of people is that can't check a smartphone or the Internet for two minutes in two separate windows eight hours apart? I mean I have literally purchased LRG games from multiple countries around the world while walking down the street and while on a plane 30,000 feet in the air. That also doesn't even take into account the multiple games that have lasted for hours or even days without selling out. I mean should Soedesco, THQ and the others be forced to keep their games in print for many years just so you can buy them at a discount or make up your mind years from now? At some point, every sales model is "limited" and while you may prefer the retail model (and frankly, I do as well), there are just some games that would not do well in greater quantities or being sold at traditional retail outlets. That's why I believe the LRG model is actually great for gamers and collectors as some of these games would never have a chance to be released physically otherwise.

    As for your other points, you have made your position clear as have I. Arguing about it is pointless because LRG will continue to exist, it will continue to be successful and those of us who want to buy their games will continue to do so and reap the enjoyment from doing so. Complaining about the same thing repeatedly on an Internet forum is pointless and you aren't changing anything by doing it. Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Again, please explain to me who this group of people is that can't check a smartphone or the Internet for two minutes in two separate windows eight hours apart? I mean I have literally purchased LRG games from multiple countries around the world while walking down the street and while on a plane 30,000 feet in the air. That also doesn't even take into account the multiple games that have lasted for hours or even days without selling out. I mean should Soedesco, THQ and the others be forced to keep their games in print for many years just so you can buy them at a discount or make up your mind years from now? At some point, every sales model is "limited" and while you may prefer the retail model (and frankly, I do as well), there are just some games that would not do well in greater quantities or being sold at traditional retail outlets. That's why I believe the LRG model is actually great for gamers and collectors as some of these games would never have a chance to be released physically otherwise. As for your other points, you have made your position clear as have I. Arguing about it is pointless because LRG will continue to exist, it will continue to be successful and those of us who want to buy their games will continue to do so and reap the enjoyment from doing so. Complaining about the same thing repeatedly on an Internet forum is pointless and you aren't changing anything by doing it. Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.
    Your total acceptance and defenses of all the acknowledged (!) disadvantages of the LR salesmodel (limited accessibility, small purchase windows, ebay scalping!) is based on one assumption which doesn't hold up: The LR salesmodel is the only way to get these games to us. If you believe that, then you are ignoring reality.

    There is a dozen of publishers out there which prove every month that the normal retail route is not only possible but successful and profitable. We would get these games of LR by other publishers (!), we don't have to hail this company which follows intentionally and explicitly the route 'Buy it now from us or you might pay later a lot more on ebay'. It is a very convenient way for a company at the cost of gamers and collectors to eliminate the uncertainty factor Number One for a business, namely the uncertainty about the final sales numbers. It gives LR a competitive advantage over their competitors for sure, but at which price? Pay the retail price now in a 10-minute sales window before the release or pay lots more later on ebay.

    Why then in the world should I respect a company which follows such a terrible sales strategy for us gamers if other small publishers go the normal retail route and put great niche/digital- games on physical disc? I don't have any respect for the owners of LR, nice guys as they might be, they should rather stand in a corner be ashamed of themselves, instead, they are laughing all the way to the bank defended by a very active fanbase often with fanbase-arguments scraping the bottom of the reasoning barrel.

    Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning and still does?

    And, no, I don't think that opinions on Internet forums change the world or that I would even put a dent in the well-running LR-car by expressing my opinion about this company. But if you can express your positive opinion about LR what a great company it is to serve us gamers well, do I have your permission to express my criticism about LR? If you like to insinuate again that I am "obsessed" with this company, I think your immediate responses whenever I post something and your foot-soldier attitude toward LR might shed the 'obsession'-light upon yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.
    In all seriousness, this is one of the stupidest things I ever read on an Internet forum. I should start my OWN BUSINESS in order to prove that it is possible to go for these kind of games the normal retail route? First, can you go a bit lower? , second, this is done already by the dozens, I have around 120 PS4 games on my list for these games from smaller publishers, third, it is not about RE-RELEASING games from LR!! Once released, this niche-market is not big enough for a re-release as a very big rule. The lack of re-releases is your reasoning that the LR-way is the only way? Not good, not good at all.

    Thank god Inside/Limbo won't be a LR release. We'll get a regular release, no 5 minute purchase-window even if a buy is possible 30 000 feet high above in the air, no ebay scalping for about $100 one day after the release date, a terrible thought. I don't know how these companies do it, they must be wizards.
    Last edited by lendelin; 07-19-2017 at 01:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    I decided to stop buying their PS4 releases specifically because I concluded that, if I change my mind on any and decide I want it later on, I feel confident that the vast majority of what's coming out these days I could later buy on eBay for around the same price or only slightly more for a sealed copy or wait for an opened one and get an even better deal. Personally, I don't mind much if I end up having to pay an extra 10-20 bucks. Unless somebody is psychic, that's gonna happen all the time with game shopping regardless. I'll wait too long to buy a game, and it'll end up more expensive than had I bought it earlier. Or I'll think a game is at a good price and I'll snatch it up, only to see it get marked down even further. That's just life.

    Anyway, more interesting, LRG announced that Ys Origin is coming August 25, and the same day will have another unannounced Japanese RPG (I think multiplatform; it's definitely on Vita either way). I'm really eager to find out what it is. It's a shot in the dark, but I've been hoping that maybe LRG could sign a deal with Kemco and get some of their retro-style RPGs (the ones first developed for mobile and then ported elsewhere) physically released. I enjoyed End of Serenity and still have to get around to playing Mystic Chronicles. Those I just bought digitally since they were PSP releases and definitely aren't going to come out physically. But the PS4 and Vita have Asdivine Hearts and Revenant Saga, and I've been holding off on buying on the off chance of physical releases.
    This is a very rational and reasonable attitude I share for 20 years now when it comes to buying games. The check on ebay about LR-prices showed, however, that a stagnation on the original retail price cannot be expected in all likelihood. You pay more over time for LR-games, as a rule, while the general rule for regular releases w/o the LR-nonsense is that you pay less over time and you can wait for a price drop.

    Btw, I hope also that a small publisher (not necessarily LR) will pick up some of the great Kemco RPGs, very often I miss nowadays this great feeling of simplicity and challenge of an NES or SNES RPG; and if it is quirky like Undertale, the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Your total acceptance and defenses of all the acknowledged (!) disadvantages of the LR salesmodel (limited accessibility, small purchase windows, ebay scalping!) is based on one assumption which doesn't hold up: The LR salesmodel is the only way to get these games to us. If you believe that, then you are ignoring reality.

    There is a dozen of publishers out there which prove every month that the normal retail route is not only possible but successful and profitable. We would get these games of LR by other publishers (!), we don't have to hail this company which follows intentionally and explicitly the route 'Buy it now from us or you might pay later a lot more on ebay'. It is a very convenient way for a company at the cost of gamers and collectors to eliminate the uncertainty factor Number One for a business, namely the uncertainty about the final sales numbers. It gives LR a competitive advantage over their competitors for sure, but at which price? Pay the retail price now in a 10-minute sales window before the release or pay lots more later on ebay.

    Why then in the world should I respect a company which follows such a terrible sales strategy for us gamers if other small publishers go the normal retail route and put great niche/digital- games on physical disc? I don't have any respect for the owners of LR, nice guys as they might be, they should rather stand in a corner be ashamed of themselves, instead, they are laughing all the way to the bank defended by a very active fanbase often with fanbase-arguments scraping the bottom of the reasoning barrel.

    Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning and still does?

    And, no, I don't think that opinions on Internet forums change the world or that I would even put a dent in the well-running LR-car by expressing my opinion about this company. But if you can express your positive opinion about LR what a great company it is to serve us gamers well, do I have your permission to express my criticism about LR? If you like to insinuate again that I am "obsessed" with this company, I think your immediate responses whenever I post something and your foot-soldier attitude toward LR might shed the 'obsession'-light upon yourself.



    In all seriousness, this is one of the stupidest things I ever read on an Internet forum. I should start my OWN BUSINESS in order to prove that it is possible to go for these kind of games the normal retail route? First, can you go a bit lower? , second, this is done already by the dozens, I have around 120 PS4 games on my list for these games from smaller publishers, third, it is not about RE-RELEASING games from LR!! Once released, this niche-market is not big enough for a re-release as a very big rule. The lack of re-releases is your reasoning that the LR-way is the only way? Not good, not good at all.

    Thank god Inside/Limbo won't be a LR release. We'll get a regular release, no 5 minute purchase-window even if a buy is possible 30 000 feet high above in the air, no ebay scalping for about $100 one day after the release date, a terrible thought. I don't know how these companies do it, they must be wizards.
    Bottom line, I just have never had a single issue buying their games and either have thousands of other people. I mean you can sit here and shake your fist and complain that the world doesn't work the way you want it to, but other than complaining for the sake of complaining, it's pointless. LRG is not willing to take the same kind of financial risk that companies like Soedesco, THQ and others are willing to take on. That decision is neither right or wrong, it's what they believe is necessary to run their business. The downside of that decision is that they do sales in a specific way that doesn't accommodate everyone. It's unfortunate, but that's the way life is. I don't think there's anything else to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Bottom line, I just have never had a single issue buying their games and either have thousands of other people.
    How do you explain then that 85% of the LR-games sell for 40% to 600% over the retail price, high in demand games go for around $100 and more? Could it be that your experience is not the experience of a lot of gamers and collectors? Could it be that a lot of gamers have a monthly limited budget for games and cannot buy LR games right away? Could it be that lots of gamers have jobs which don't allow them to interrupt work exactly at 10am or 6pm, and if they are 10 minutes too late it is anyway too late as a rule? However, if 25% of the games go to ebay scalpers I admit that they certainly can make time to get the games.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I mean you can sit here and shake your fist and complain that the world doesn't work the way you want it to, but other than complaining for the sake of complaining, it's pointless.
    Trust me, if I would shake the fist and complain about the world like Abe Simpson it would NOT be about a game company. I don't complain for the sake of complaining either, that would be psychologically sick.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    LRG is not willing to take the same kind of financial risk that companies like Soedesco, THQ and others are willing to take on.
    This is very true!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    That decision is neither right or wrong, it's what they believe is necessary to run their business.
    It's not about right or wrong, it is not a moral Q, it is about what is best or worse for gamers and collectors. It is about the Q which consequences the LR salesmodel has. If you justify every decision just because it is the best decision for the decisionmakers, then no criticism of politicians, companies, interest groups, agencies, policies and so many others isn't possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    The downside of that decision is that they do sales in a specific way that doesn't accommodate everyone.
    That's true and a classical euphemism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    It's unfortunate, but that's the way life is. I don't think there's anything else to say.
    Yep, fortunately for us there are other smaller companies out there which give us great games from smaller developers on physical disc in a regular way w/o obstacles. 'Unfortunately' LR does not. Unfortunately LR doesn't consider what is best for gamers and collectors unlike other small developers.


    The central Q remains:Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning?
    Last edited by lendelin; 07-19-2017 at 09:18 PM.

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    Actually, that does make a lot of sense, and I never thought of it that way. The way LRG does their business model and as often as they release games, forces people who are invested to ignore other releases both indie and AAA budget alike because they know that they can always get them but they can't with LRG. So in that sense, these other companies are actually losing money by not doing what LRG is doing, so this is in reality harmful to gaming industry as a whole, especially indie publishers who don't have the money that AAA publishers do. This could mean these other indie publishers are producing less product because being in the same niche market that LRG in, all of any potential sales are being lost due to the "they'll always be available, but LRG won't for any sort of reasonable price if I don't do this right now" mentality from the consumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    Actually, that does make a lot of sense, and I never thought of it that way. The way LRG does their business model and as often as they release games, forces people who are invested to ignore other releases both indie and AAA budget alike because they know that they can always get them but they can't with LRG. So in that sense, these other companies are actually losing money by not doing what LRG is doing, so this is in reality harmful to gaming industry as a whole, especially indie publishers who don't have the money that AAA publishers do. This could mean these other indie publishers are producing less product because being in the same niche market that LRG in, all of any potential sales are being lost due to the "they'll always be available, but LRG won't for any sort of reasonable price if I don't do this right now" mentality from the consumer.
    There is no doubt in my mind that LR cuts into the business of smaller developers like 505 Games, ThQ Nordic, Rising Star, Badland Games, Soedesco and many others because of their fool-proof and terrible sales model; in particular in a small niche market with limited budget of every customer the tendency to reward LR by buying their games right away based on a very short availability for retail price and punish the other developers because they have the decency to go the normal retail route is certainly there.

    This is one of the reasons I post in this thread.

    One reason is a irrational one, the other one is a very rational one.

    The irrational one: It irks me to see that LR has an overall positive reputation and is acknowledged for actually a very questionable and hurtful salesmodel while other companies which deserve our respect don't get the credit. Why this good rep of LR exist despite their salesmodel is explainable, but another topic.

    The rational one: The successful model gets copied. That's the real danger I see of Limited Run's salesmodel not for the industry as a whole but for the small niche market of small publishers to get their games on disc. For the entire game industry this market hardly plays a role at all. We are not talking here GTA, Final Fantasy or Uncharted sales numbers.

    However, there is no doubt in my mind that other small publishers will try to go the route of the LR salesmodel. If you have a salesmodel like LR you live in paradise because you eliminate the uncertainty about final sales numbers. Your profit and cost calculations have a high accuracy. 'Special Reserve Games' or whatever their name is, and even Play Asia with a couple of games now (I think 7) tout their games now with limited production numbers worldwide. 'Aerea' by Soedesco is getting a regular release but also a limited release by Play Asia.

    If I were the owner of one of these small developers and would face a heavy competitor like LR with 4 to 8 releases every month which sell out within minutes, I certainly would think about taking a similiar route. Maybe founding a subsidiary with some name recognition like 'Collectors Box' or a similar nonsensical name, and limit the production numbers to around 3000.

    However, I don't think that the market would sustain 4 or 5 game companies like LR with the same amount of game releases. Even the flood of LR games is tiresome for gamers already and certainly the 'uniqueness' is gone if you get so many 'unique' games. However, the danger of popping up so many game companies which go the LR route is certainly there; and if that happens, the bubble will burst and the entire nonsense will be obvious for everyone. The consequence might be that smaller indie games will have a harder time to be put on disc becasue of a general mistrust by developers that these kind of games are not profitable. A once growing niche market would experience a crisis.

    I do not predict that this will happen, there are a lot of 'ifs', but I see a danger in the success of Limited Run. I don't doubt that more companies like LR will try to be successful, the Q is how many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    How do you explain then that 85% of the LR-games sell for 40% to 600% over the retail price, high in demand games go for around $100 and more? Could it be that your experience is not the experience of a lot of gamers and collectors? Could it be that a lot of gamers have a monthly limited budget for games and cannot buy LR games right away? Could it be that lots of gamers have jobs which don't allow them to interrupt work exactly at 10am or 6pm, and if they are 10 minutes too late it is anyway too late as a rule? However, if 25% of the games go to ebay scalpers I admit that they certainly can make time to get the games.




    Trust me, if I would shake the fist and complain about the world like Abe Simpson it would NOT be about a game company. I don't complain for the sake of complaining either, that would be psychologically sick.




    This is very true!




    It's not about right or wrong, it is not a moral Q, it is about what is best or worse for gamers and collectors. It is about the Q which consequences the LR salesmodel has. If you justify every decision just because it is the best decision for the decisionmakers, then no criticism of politicians, companies, interest groups, agencies, policies and so many others isn't possible.




    That's true and a classical euphemism.




    Yep, fortunately for us there are other smaller companies out there which give us great games from smaller developers on physical disc in a regular way w/o obstacles. 'Unfortunately' LR does not. Unfortunately LR doesn't consider what is best for gamers and collectors unlike other small developers.


    The central Q remains:Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning?
    First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.

    Conflating a private business with politicians and the government who work for us as taxpayers is absurd. If you were spending your time trying to make political or social change, you would have my full support. As it stands, spending your time going after a small but successful business seems like a huge waste of time.

    I support LRG because they provide better customer service and more interaction with their customers than any other game company large or small that I am aware of. They are also focused on always improving things, whether that's their packaging, adding a rewards program, pursuing ultra niche releases that no other publisher would even consider or supporting an entire platform in the Vita that 505, Soedesco, THQ and Rising Star won't support in the US. Do you really believe that your beloved retail publishers would have touched Mutant Mudds or Bard's Gold with a ten foot pole? There is literally no way, they are just far too niche.

    LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing.

    As for LRG's business model, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. They announce in advance how many copies will be available, they open up orders at two set times on a Friday and everyone has an equal shot to get the games. They impose purchase limits where appropriate and do their best to meet demand. Unlike Gaijinworks or some of LRG's competitors, with very few exceptions, LRG ships the games within a week or two of purchase.

    Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints.

    Frankly, in the case of LRG, their model depends on quick sell outs and one unfortunate side effect of that is that scalpers feel like they can make a few bucks getting in between LRG and their customers. Thankfully, all it takes is a tiny bit of planning on the part of the customer to spend the two minutes it takes to get whatever releases you are interested in. Anything worth having in life is worthy of doing a tiny bit of work and if despite your efforts you still can't get the game you want, the great thing about the current market is that every LRG release is available (often much more cheaply) in digital format. As such, I don't have an issue with LRG or its business model and I happily buy all their releases, as well as all of the other niche releases that come out physically from every other publisher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.Conflating a private business with politicians and the government who work for us as taxpayers is absurd. If you were spending your time trying to make political or social change, you would have my full support. As it stands, spending your time going after a small but successful business seems like a huge waste of time.I support LRG because they provide better customer service and more interaction with their customers than any other game company large or small that I am aware of. They are also focused on always improving things, whether that's their packaging, adding a rewards program, pursuing ultra niche releases that no other publisher would even consider or supporting an entire platform in the Vita that 505, Soedesco, THQ and Rising Star won't support in the US. Do you really believe that your beloved retail publishers would have touched Mutant Mudds or Bard's Gold with a ten foot pole? There is literally no way, they are just far too niche. LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing. As for LRG's business model, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. They announce in advance how many copies will be available, they open up orders at two set times on a Friday and everyone has an equal shot to get the games. They impose purchase limits where appropriate and do their best to meet demand. Unlike Gaijinworks or some of LRG's competitors, with very few exceptions, LRG ships the games within a week or two of purchase. Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints. Frankly, in the case of LRG, their model depends on quick sell outs and one unfortunate side effect of that is that scalpers feel like they can make a few bucks getting in between LRG and their customers. Thankfully, all it takes is a tiny bit of planning on the part of the customer to spend the two minutes it takes to get whatever releases you are interested in. Anything worth having in life is worthy of doing a tiny bit of work and if despite your efforts you still can't get the game you want, the great thing about the current market is that every LRG release is available (often much more cheaply) in digital format. As such, I don't have an issue with LRG or its business model and I happily buy all their releases, as well as all of the other niche releases that come out physically from every other publisher.

    This is a lot of euphemistic babble which sounds like a LR press release, too much to reply in a meaningful way. Let me address just two things:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints...

    First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.
    1. Ebay scalping: It is not a Q if LR engages in ebay scalping, or if they invented it, or if they founded ebay. The fact is that LR tailors their businessmodel towards ebay scalpers, and then uses ebay scalping to push customers to buy their games. You draw a big separation line between LR and ebay scalping as an unfortunate and unavoidable consequence of modern times. That's not the case.

    You and others and LR itself were very well aware of ebay scalping as soon as LR put limited production numbers on their games. You had to be a fool not to predict what happens next. Just read the first page of this thread shorty after LR was founded. Some expressed concern if the games would sell well enough, and then pointed to ebay scalping as an assurance that LR will sell their stock.

    Quote: "And I suspect it'll go decently well for them since, even if the games stink, there are always collectors who want a rarity and scalpers who think they can make a buck off of rare games."

    The answer to this post of the LR-guys themselves who went on a couple of websites to create a fanbase:

    "Thank you for your support and understanding." (page 1, post #11, 10-15-2015)

    And just a couple of weeks ago, when Strafe was sold, we all got in the mail this advertisement from Limited Run:

    "The standard version of the game sold out several weeks ago and is already fetching several times the original retail price on secondary markets. (...) - head over to our site now and grab a copy!"

    No, ebay scalping is not an unfortunate, unavoidable aftertaste of a wonderful heroic company. First, they created explicitly in interviews rarity hype (!) with the result of ebay scalping, and then they instrumentalize ebay scalping to push for sales of their games. A great company indeed. Artificially deflate the supply and artificially inflate the demand proved to be very successful.

    And your reasoning that potentially everything nowadays, even my own toothbrush, might be a victim to ebay scalping reminds me of the reasoning that every game since Adam and Eve is potentially rare. It is ridiculous. LR actively uses ebay scalping as a sales strategy, while Nintendo, Sony, 505 Games or Soedesco do not although ebay scalpers use their products. Inflated ebay prices shortly after the release of a game happen but are very rare exceptions (in particular for indie games!), while they are the rule for LR games as the check for ebay prices clearly showed. And the reasoning that the majority of the games despite ebay scalping are in the hands of gamers and collectors is again euphemistic babble. If 60% were in the hands of gamers and 40% in the hands of scalpers, would that be satisfying? And should we really check additionally on the frequency of actual sales of the LR games on ebay? I think you'd be surprised.

    The check of the average actual ebay prices for all the LR-games, but also in particular the high-in-demand games, showed that the factor 'ebay scalping' of the LR sales strategy works well indeed. The company achieved its goal. Once there is factual rarity hype of past games, it re-enforces rarity hype and drives sales of current games because they MIGHT (not necesserily are) pricey already a week after release. Rarity hype lives from uncertainty and the 'maybe'.

    The nonsensical defense- and justification-reasoning can only be explained by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing.
    2. Fanbase creation: Your identification level with this company is incredibly high. You like these guys and admire them. They are like us, actually, you could be one of them. They created 'we' and 'us', and as soon as someone critisizes LR it is 'us' against 'them'. You accepted and swallowed everything bad and disadvantegous associated with their salesmodel. Everyone can see that their marketing strategy has only bad aspects for gamers and collectors, but you as part of them are no longer a customer, you are part of their business, and consequently, everything which helps them also helps you and -magically- everyone of us.

    It was indeed a smart move of the LR-guys to go on websites like DP in this thread and flattering posters. This way they created a fanbase which roots for support and had high hopes that this company will do well.

    I truly could understand your position IF Limited Run were the only company who puts great digital games on physical discs; but there were from the beginning of the LR-times other companies which started to do the same and don't rely on such a questionable salesmodel. Once in awhile a company puts production numbers on a game, see the collector editions of Tales of Zestiria and Tales of Berseria. In particular the latter immediately became the object of ebay scalpers to a disgusting extent. Limited Run put this bad program for regular releases in their name, centered their business model around rarity hype, created limited accessibility re-enforcing rarity hype as a fertile ground for ebay scalping. Good for them because they sell their stock of games, bad for us because they are doing it at the cost of gamers and collectors. Limited accessibility and inflated ebay prices are not a good service for gamers and collectors. Sales of these games can be done in a very different manner.

    Soedesco has already or will release Rogue Stormers, 8-bit Armies, World to the West (!), Pharaonic and The Girl and the Robot within just two months. All of them nichey games on physical disc. We'll also get Matterfall (!), Inside/Limbo (!, 505 Games), and The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth+, and these are the only recent ones which come to mind. And here are incredible news: All of them nichey games on physical disc WITHOUT limited accessibility of 30 minutes twice on one single day, without overpriced ebay selling beginning a couple of hours after the sales ended, and up for months so you can decide when and for which price you can purchase these games.

    Incredible, it sounds like paradise for gamers and collectors, let's hope this utopian model will come true one day.
    Last edited by lendelin; 07-21-2017 at 02:35 PM.

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    In 15 minutes, the first batch of NeuroVoider and Drive! Drive! Drive! will be up for sale. There's also a CD soundtrack for NeuroVoider, for those who would be interested in that.

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