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Thread: Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

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    Play Asia was already selling Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap with a better cover art in my opinion, and at a lower price. That may have influenced LRG's decision as to how many they would print. The game is still available at Play Asia.

    I'm grateful that Sony is willing to accept print runs small enough that entrepreneurs are willing to take the risk to print physical copies of games from smaller developers. In this supposedly digital age, it's real pleasure to see this happening.

    I just wanted to thank Aussie2B and others who take the time to make the rest of us aware of what's available, so that we can make a timely decision.
    Thanks!

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    Fangamer only printing a couple games doesn't surprise me. They're not focused on game publishing so they can choose what they want.
    (and I presume Undertale they were more easily able to make a deal with the author due to both of them kind of coming from the EarthBound fanbase. I thought UT was originally started as an EB hack before turning into its own game.)

    Still, I'd rather preorder and wait for months on a restock to know the publisher had an interest in filling demand for their product, than one who doesn't care (but if you want to emphasize LRG as "collectors", then of course they shouldn't want to care about demand beyond what will give them immediate cash, too many people having their product is a BAD thing).

    Ultimately I think it makes little difference if digital games are "preserved" if only about five people can play the damn things.

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    Even if it's just a couple, I'm appreciative of what Fangamer is bringing to the Vita market. It's just a shame that, when preorders are totally open like that for games like these, people aren't as interested to buy. They assume it'll end up common or some such, and that results in an even smaller print run than what could've been sold through LRG. Thank goodness Fangamer at least manufactured a little more than what was ordered with Shovel Knight. They got 3000-some preorders but chose to manufacture 5000. Even then, though, you have a print run in the same ballpark as LRG's. Even lower than what Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath got, in fact. Given the reputation Shovel Knight has and all the acclaim, it's the perfect storm for creating a pricey game on the secondhand market in the years to come, probably more expensive than the average LRG Vita release. It was nice that Shovel Knight had a fairly wide order window at the time, but now that it's sold out on Fangamer and will likely never be reprinted, it's in the exact same boat as every sold out LRG release. I feel bad for those ordering the Undertale LE now, with the months long wait past the shipment of the first batch (which I luckily got in on; I'm glad I didn't drag my feet on ordering), but I'd like to take that as a sign that sales are going better than expected. I really hope Undertale gets more than 5000 copies printed for each platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I just wanted to thank Aussie2B and others who take the time to make the rest of us aware of what's available, so that we can make a timely decision.
    Thanks!
    You're welcome. I'm glad my list and updates have been useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SparTonberry View Post
    Fangamer only printing a couple games doesn't surprise me. They're not focused on game publishing so they can choose what they want.
    (and I presume Undertale they were more easily able to make a deal with the author due to both of them kind of coming from the EarthBound fanbase. I thought UT was originally started as an EB hack before turning into its own game.)

    Still, I'd rather preorder and wait for months on a restock to know the publisher had an interest in filling demand for their product, than one who doesn't care (but if you want to emphasize LRG as "collectors", then of course they shouldn't want to care about demand beyond what will give them immediate cash, too many people having their product is a BAD thing).

    Ultimately I think it makes little difference if digital games are "preserved" if only about five people can play the damn things.
    Again, these games can be bought digitally, so an unlimited number of people can "play the damn things". It's also not a matter of not caring, it's a matter of running a sustainable business that doesn't fold the second they hit a bump in the road on a release that not enough people preorder to make it viable (i.e. the situation Gaijinworks and Iam8Bit have both been in). Also, there are now 8,000 copies of Wonderboy that have been sold physically and thousands more through Play Asia. It's not exactly five copies in a world where these are niche titles that most consumers are happy to buy digitally if at all.

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    Bojay, not everyone buys digital. As much as I want to play a lot of games that are digital only, I'll wait until they get a physical release. The only time I'll play the games digitally is if they're $2.50 or less on PSN or Steam, or if they're free on PS+. PS+ is a great deal that offers me 72 games across PS3/PS4/Vita for $40 a year provided you wait for a sale, so each game is essentially less than $1, and I've played some great indie games I never would have tried otherwise. Furi and Hotline Miami are two examples that turned out to be some of the most enjoyable indie games I've ever played, the reason I hyped up and bought Furi from LRG and bought Hotline Miami the Collected Edition. Hotline Miami was so good that I purchased Hotline Miami 2 day one, something that hasn't happened before or since. I absolutely loved Zeboyd Games titles Breath of Death 7 and Cthulu Saves the World, but knowing Cosmic Star Heroine is getting a physical release, I've been patient and have waited for it(though I have been tempted on getting it this last sale where it was $7.50, and to support the dev I should, but I'll already be supporting them with a physical purchase.)
    Last edited by kupomogli; 08-06-2017 at 10:17 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    Bojay, not everyone buys digital. As much as I want to play a lot of games that are digital only, I'll wait until they get a physical release. The only time I'll play the games digitally is if they're $2.50 or less on PSN or Steam, or if they're free on PS+. PS+ is a great deal that offers me 72 games across PS3/PS4/Vita for $40 a year provided you wait for a sale, so each game is essentially less than $1, and I've played some great indie games I never would have tried otherwise. Furi and Hotline Miami are two examples that turned out to be some of the most enjoyable indie games I've ever played, the reason I hyped up and bought Furi from LRG and bought Hotline Miami the Collected Edition. Hotline Miami was so good that I purchased Hotline Miami 2 day one, something that hasn't happened before or since. I absolutely loved Zeboyd Games titles Breath of Death 7 and Cthulu Saves the World, but knowing Cosmic Star Heroine is getting a physical release, I've been patient and have waited for it(though I have been tempted on getting it this last sale where it was $7.50, and to support the dev I should, but I'll already be supporting them with a physical purchase.)
    Correct and many of those people make up LRG's customer base. At the same time, if you really just care about playing a game, digital is a perfectly viable option for many people. I was responding to the erroneous claim that LRG was somehow preventing people from playing these games when almost universally the games can be purchased far more cheaply digitally and there are no quantity limits on digital copies.

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    Anyone been reading LRG's Facebook entries recently? Lots of customers aren't happy with the current model of theirs:

    "Mark CA: I ordered my game from playasia. Fuck this shity copies limits. You do NOTHING for collectors or friends of physical media. Im finished with you guys."
    "Timmy Adriaens: time to stop supporting this crap called limited run games"
    "Michael Martignetti: Limits are fine. But that items can sell out while your completing your order is a bad practice. especially if you want to get both games to save on shiping. Its time to rethink your 'never reprint' approach. the demand is there and youre just catering to resellers instead of the fans."
    "Joshua Rhodes: I won't jump on the hate bandwagon, but this method of first come, first serve isn't working too well for a lot of us. Let's use this knowledge and experience to improve the system. Maybe drop the limit to 1 per person? What we need is a pre-order option and a few more copies to go around. Limited Run could still be limited with a few thousand extra copies. How about giving those who have been loyal, long-time fans the option to pre-purchase, then allowing the standard 3-5k copies to be released like mad to the general public, as per usual. We need solutions, not arguments."
    "Chris Caudill: I agree with another poster, make it ao orders are made after everybody who wants it pays. Gaijinworks does it that way. Forced scarcity sucks when you leave tons of people who genuinely want the game looking at a sold out screen when such a simple solution is available."
    Their method has thrived so far, but looking at comments above, which increase after every release, it seems it may not be the way to go on the long run. I love the idea of limited quantities, but the pre-order option seems to be a great idea. First open pre-orders...once everyone who wants one gets their copies securely, then print out an additional 1,000 copies. Those WILL sell anyway. It's a win-win. My fear is what type of lesson they learned from Lawbreakers, if any...I fear they might think to make even LESS quantities. Only time will tell.

    Also, my orders of Rive and Bard's Gold have YET to arrive. Fuckers and their lame ass shipping.
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    I feel like Wonder Boy would've been a good candidate for preorders. If Skullgirls can sell 7000-some copies just on PS4 alone via preorder, then I would hope and expect that Wonder Boy could at least sell 8000 via preorder. On the other hand, I can't really blame them for wanting to avoid preorders because they've consistently gone badly for them, with the exception of LawBreakers on PC, which is too recent to tell (unless the sales were abysmal; have they released preorder numbers on that?) Skullgirls is all but a disaster and is looking like it'll be around a year, give or take, from when orders were placed until when people will actually receive their copies. The Silver Case had pretty miserable sales compared to the average LRG release and was delayed over manufacturing quality issues. The Octodad tie, which said right on the item page that they were a preorder and would ship later on, resulted in LRG being bombarded for weeks with "WHERE'S MY DAMN TIE" messages. Even releases that aren't intended to be preorders but have to ship a week or two later than planned because they still haven't gotten out of manufacturing results in significant amounts of angry backlash from impatient buyers who expect to receive their games RIGHT NOW and assume they've been swindled if they don't. Granted, the problem is partially self-created. If they always did preorders, buyers would grow accustomed to waiting weeks or months before something ships. But with LRG usually not selling something until they have it in their hands and can ship it out, ideally, within a week of purchase, expectations are formed.

    For all the anger over Wonder Boy, I feel like people are missing the fact that, even now, on Monday, both standard copies and LEs of LawBreakers can still be bought, making it one of the longest lasting LRG releases. And for every Jotun, Oceanhorn, and Wonder Boy lately, there have been just as many games lasting well into the weekend. The latter should be recognized, celebrated, and encouraged, in my opinion. That should be the goal for every release, and I think it should be stretched out even further. I would love to see every LRG release stay in stock for at least a week. Yet there are LRG customers ridiculing LawBreakers, talking as if it's some sort of embarrassing failure for LRG, and I'm astounded at how shortsighted and counterproductive they're being by speaking that way. It's like, yeah, let's tell LRG that it's bad when a game doesn't sell out right away, that'll really be beneficial to us.
    Last edited by Aussie2B; 08-07-2017 at 09:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasdkirby View Post
    Anyone been reading LRG's Facebook entries recently? Lots of customers aren't happy with the current model of theirs:











    Their method has thrived so far, but looking at comments above, which increase after every release, it seems it may not be the way to go on the long run. I love the idea of limited quantities, but the pre-order option seems to be a great idea. First open pre-orders...once everyone who wants one gets their copies securely, then print out an additional 1,000 copies. Those WILL sell anyway. It's a win-win. My fear is what type of lesson they learned from Lawbreakers, if any...I fear they might think to make even LESS quantities. Only time will tell.

    Also, my orders of Rive and Bard's Gold have YET to arrive. Fuckers and their lame ass shipping.
    The comments have been that way since the beginning and while this particular release seems to have attracted more people who have never bought from LRG before, they really aren't much different than the comments I have seen on many other Facebooks and Twitters for companies that sell limited products. There are always a handful of people who want someone else to risk their money and very existence of their business so that they can have things the way that they want ithem to be. Can't speak to the shipping as in the mainland US anyway it's fairly reliable and cheap compared to a lot of other similar companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    You are not collecting anymore? Just not in the mood anymore or what happened? Btw, I am also way beyond that I want as many games as possible, but I still spend a lot of money for games.
    Well, I got a divorce (on good terms, so nothing vindictive or anything) and got remarried so my family grew to 10 step children on top of my daughter from the first marriage and now I've got a 1 1/2 year old son with my new wife. Life is good but time and space are more limited. I've culled my collection to a few systems that the kids play and that works for me. My wife's house has had an anti tech field that killed some of my stuff (like my Retron 5) so I think that was a hint to adjust the hobby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoshiM View Post
    Well, I got a divorce (on good terms, so nothing vindictive or anything) and got remarried so my family grew to 10 step children on top of my daughter from the first marriage and now I've got a 1 1/2 year old son with my new wife. Life is good but time and space are more limited. I've culled my collection to a few systems that the kids play and that works for me. My wife's house has had an anti tech field that killed some of my stuff (like my Retron 5) so I think that was a hint to adjust the hobby.
    Sorry to hear about the divorce, and congrats about your new marriage! I'm glad that all works out for you very well, good to hear! Wow, such a big family, and a new son! You must be very proud, Dan, and with such a big family it is very understandable that collecting and gaming isn't so much important to you now. You are absolutely right, there are much more important things in life than games and collecting, although I miss guys like you on this board with whom it was possible to have intelligent and very rational discussions way beyond an election-campaign level.

    I read your post about the Retro-Gaming mag, yeah, write something again! I still think that your section about the N64 in the DP Collectors guide is the best section of the book. The comments about the games are very well done. I haven't written about games since my last contribution in the DP fanzine, since then I wrote only boring articles in Political Science, that means a lot in Comparative Politics. But what are explanations about party systems compared to explanations about the difficulties of the Dreamcast and N64? Almost nothing!

    Great to hear from you, Dan! Enjoy family life!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    For all the anger over Wonder Boy, I feel like people are missing the fact that, even now, on Monday, both standard copies and LEs of LawBreakers can still be bought, making it one of the longest lasting LRG releases. And for every Jotun, Oceanhorn, and Wonder Boy lately, there have been just as many games lasting well into the weekend. The latter should be recognized, celebrated, and encouraged, in my opinion. That should be the goal for every release, and I think it should be stretched out even further. I would love to see every LRG release stay in stock for at least a week. Yet there are LRG customers ridiculing LawBreakers, talking as if it's some sort of embarrassing failure for LRG, and I'm astounded at how shortsighted and counterproductive they're being by speaking that way. It's like, yeah, let's tell LRG that it's bad when a game doesn't sell out right away, that'll really be beneficial to us.
    People are ridiculing LawBreakers because no one wanted the game and LRG forced people into buying half of them by bundling them with copies of WonderBoy because even LRG knew the game wouldn't sell without doing something shady like this.

    If LRG had enough stock for all the games that people actually actually wanted, and they lasted atleast 8-24 hours before sell out, I think people would praise LRG. But it's the games that people point out as LRG cash in garbage as the ones that last such a long time, even with low print runs that LRG gets ridiculed. I honestly think Lili will be another one that lasts a fairly long time if the print run is anything close to WonderBoy and LawBreakers.

    Now, I will be honest, while I do state that LRG has a lot of shovelware, I'm obviously overexaggerating a bit, but it's true that they do have some shovelware garbage that isn't even a worthy purchase for even fans of the genre. And I said "some," this is actually me throwing some praise towards LRG direction. Most of the stuff is average and fairly decent, and a high note towards LRG is that they've also released atleast three of what's imo the best games on the PS4 with Furi, One Way Heroics, and Shadow Complex, something that I can't say for any other publisher except Sony or Namco Bandai, so bravo. With their future games(games I haven't yet played,) Ys Origins, Salt and Sanctuary, Cosmic Star Heroine, and Battle Princess Madelyn, LRG atleast "looks" like they could have the best publishing line up out of any publisher except and possibly even over Sony.

    I wouldn't complain if I didn't care about the games they're releasing. How many shady business practices and negative press do they need to get until they eventually say fu** it and stop publishing games? I mean, I highly doubt they'd stop publishing games as lucrative as this is for them, and not knowing how much they actually make, I'm going to go with the assumption that after shipping costs and everything else, they're probably still making $5 minimum a game after all is said and done, so more than likely making $50-$200k a month. I can guarantee with the money they're making over what they started this business up with, they can take more of a risk and sell out in three days rather than forcing a sell out in one day. When you're making at minimum $50k a month, paying for a few airline tickets on even a weekly basis to promote your company is about as much as your average minimum wage person paying for a tank of gas. I'm sure that people will defend them saying they don't have the budget to do what people are insisting but anyone with some common sense knows damn well they're making bank off of this business. LRG could be doing a hell of a lot more than they're doing right now to get rid of these complaints.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    People are ridiculing LawBreakers because no one wanted the game and LRG forced people into buying half of them by bundling them with copies of WonderBoy because even LRG knew the game wouldn't sell without doing something shady like this.

    If LRG had enough stock for all the games that people actually actually wanted, and they lasted atleast 8-24 hours before sell out, I think people would praise LRG. But it's the games that people point out as LRG cash in garbage as the ones that last such a long time, even with low print runs that LRG gets ridiculed. I honestly think Lili will be another one that lasts a fairly long time if the print run is anything close to WonderBoy and LawBreakers.

    Now, I will be honest, while I do state that LRG has a lot of shovelware, I'm obviously overexaggerating a bit, but it's true that they do have some shovelware garbage that isn't even a worthy purchase for even fans of the genre. And I said "some," this is actually me throwing some praise towards LRG direction. Most of the stuff is average and fairly decent, and a high note towards LRG is that they've also released atleast three of what's imo the best games on the PS4 with Furi, One Way Heroics, and Shadow Complex, something that I can't say for any other publisher except Sony or Namco Bandai, so bravo. With their future games(games I haven't yet played,) Ys Origins, Salt and Sanctuary, Cosmic Star Heroine, and Battle Princess Madelyn, LRG atleast "looks" like they could have the best publishing line up out of any publisher except and possibly even over Sony.

    I wouldn't complain if I didn't care about the games they're releasing. How many shady business practices and negative press do they need to get until they eventually say fu** it and stop publishing games? I mean, I highly doubt they'd stop publishing games as lucrative as this is for them, and not knowing how much they actually make, I'm going to go with the assumption that after shipping costs and everything else, they're probably still making $5 minimum a game after all is said and done, so more than likely making $50-$200k a month. I can guarantee with the money they're making over what they started this business up with, they can take more of a risk and sell out in three days rather than forcing a sell out in one day. When you're making at minimum $50k a month, paying for a few airline tickets on even a weekly basis to promote your company is about as much as your average minimum wage person paying for a tank of gas. I'm sure that people will defend them saying they don't have the budget to do what people are insisting but anyone with some common sense knows damn well they're making bank off of this business. LRG could be doing a hell of a lot more than they're doing right now to get rid of these complaints.
    What you are saying is objectively untrue. A number of us wanted both WB CE and LB CE as is clear from the LRG forums among other places. Yes, there are undoubtedly people that bought a bundle not caring much about LB and not wanting it, but it's certainly not everyone. They also sold through all of their stock of LB this weekend into this morning, so even without the bundle and given the fact that a number of PC CEs were already sold, there was demand for the game.

    I can't say what their profit margin actually is, but even if their gross is 20% as you speculate, they now have eight employees, plus the two founders. It's not like that's free money they can just risk on overprinting games or some other purpose once you factor in taxes, overhead, wages and benefits, insurance, rent, etc...I know I've said this previously, but unless you've actually started your own business and run it for a few years, you really don't have the ability to understand how complicated and difficult it really is. Plenty of people have started businesses that gross $1 million plus a year only to go bankrupt within 12-18 months of starting. I'll give LRG a ton of credit for allowing negative comments on Twitter, Facebook and their own forums without censorship. I know I sure wouldn't put up with a lot of the garbage that people post without knowing anything about the reality of their business or its risks and challenges.

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    The bundle was a bad idea (at least, for the time in which they put it up), but that's irrelevant to the point I was making in that quote. I also don't care about nor was speaking about people ridiculing the quality of any game itself. What I was talking about, specifically, was the ridiculing of the length of time that a game stays in stock. I don't care if a game is good or bad or if I personally have any interest in it, the goal should be for EVERY game to stay in stock a decent amount time. Anybody who suggests that it is a bad thing, or a failure, for a game to still be available a day or two later has absolutely no right, in my opinion, to then complain when a game they do want sells out in minutes. Those people are only contributing to the problem of print runs that are too small. LRG and the developers who use them want to be seen as successful in the eyes of their customers, so they're only going to avoid the chance of a game lasting for a few days if people are going to point and laugh and call it a flop.

    As for Lili, it's getting thousands fewer copies than Wonder Boy and LawBreakers. I don't really know anything about it or what level of demand there is for it, so I couldn't predict how sales will go. I do hope that it lasts at least a day.

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    Random question that kind of strays from what is being discussed. A lot of people say Paypal is the quickest route to take when buying from LRG. I heard you just need to already be signed into paypal and pretty much just hit purchase without adding you credit card info. How can I sign into paypal before making a purchase? just open a new tab and sign into paypal then just select the paypal option during checkout? I mainly ask because I can't test how to do it without being nervous about accidentally buying something.

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    Yep, just go directly to the PayPal website in another tab and log in there. Most of the time, I log into PayPal during the LRG checkout process, since it only takes a matter of seconds, but when I feel like what I want might sell out extremely fast (especially when they have cover variants that are like <1000 copies), I figure I may as well shave off that tiny bit of time too.

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    Good and bad thing for LawBreakers just came up today. Good thing is that the game being online only meaning the disc is completely worthless after the game is no longer being played, this issue being patched doesn't matter. Bad thing is, there's an issue that makes the game kind of unplayable, so on PS4, so you have to wonder how long will the game even be played on the consoles? Watch the DigitalFoundry video to see what I mean.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYBTAhp1s6Y
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    Now there is a PC version of Night Trap for Friday? Geez...

    https://limitedrungames.com/collecti...anniversary-pc

    Also, I think it's a bad idea for them to accept TWO of the regular editions of Night Trap and The Bunker. Those will sell, and (at least Night Trap), all 5,000 copies will sell fast AND give enough people a chance at getting at least the normal copy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Again, these games can be bought digitally, so an unlimited number of people can "play the damn things". It's also not a matter of not caring, it's a matter of running a sustainable business that doesn't fold the second they hit a bump in the road on a release that not enough people preorder to make it viable (i.e. the situation Gaijinworks and Iam8Bit have both been in). Also, there are now 8,000 copies of Wonderboy that have been sold physically and thousands more through Play Asia. It's not exactly five copies in a world where these are niche titles that most consumers are happy to buy digitally if at all.
    They won't be able to buy it digitally in ten years.
    And about five copies... "hyperbole". :P

    A comparable example might be the Famicom Disk System Disk Writier-exclusives and the Super Famicom Nintendo Power (aka SF Memory) exclusives. While the rewriting services were active, an unlimited number of copies could be made since people could pay to overwrite their old disk/cart. But now that the rewriting service is over, the number of copies is limited to those which were never overwritten. And such are worth a lot of money (which means paying far too much money if you want to play the game and aren't into collecting) (especially since many who chose to never overwrite the games probably wanted to keep them).
    I realize it's not exactly the same, since modern digital games use storage media that can store many games so there's less reason to delete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SparTonberry View Post
    They won't be able to buy it digitally in ten years.
    And about five copies... "hyperbole". :P

    A comparable example might be the Famicom Disk System Disk Writier-exclusives and the Super Famicom Nintendo Power (aka SF Memory) exclusives. While the rewriting services were active, an unlimited number of copies could be made since people could pay to overwrite their old disk/cart. But now that the rewriting service is over, the number of copies is limited to those which were never overwritten. And such are worth a lot of money (which means paying far too much money if you want to play the game and aren't into collecting) (especially since many who chose to never overwrite the games probably wanted to keep them).
    I realize it's not exactly the same, since modern digital games use storage media that can store many games so there's less reason to delete.
    Plenty of games from older platforms are being made available digitally on modern platforms everyday. This isn't 1985 anymore. Moreover, physical media is not necessarily a guarantee that something will still be functional as plenty of CD-Roms from the 90s are no longer playable due to the poor quality of the original media. Even Indiebox had problems with its early releases just a few years ago on USB sticks to the point that a number of their early releases are no longer playable using the original media.

    My point stands, if people just want to play this game now and well into the conceivable future, there is a lower cost and unlimited option available to them. If they want a physical copy, LRG is available to them with minimal effort.

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