Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 45

Thread: I feel bad for some kids getting a PS4 this Christmas...

  1. #21
    Banned

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    755
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Yeah, that slows the used games market down, gameslops are just a mess nowadays. How about that huge percentage of us who don't have a broadband connection? Just ignore us? Sounds silly to me. You're limiting your potential customer base or trying to force them into something they just cannot do/afford.

    These companies are thinking too far ahead of what people can afford. Do they not look at the economy?

  2. #22
    Bell (Level 8)
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    enough people have gigabit connections to get those downloads real fast.
    Then they'll make bigger downloads.
    50GB for a Blu-ray already sounds pretty insane.

    Give developers more powerful hardware, more memory, etc. and while I'm sure they'll make some good use of it but they'll also be more bloated and wasteful because they can.

    I remember when I saw Madden 2005 or whatever at Best Buy and there was a warning it wanted an ENTIRE memory card to itself. I know sports games or that gen were getting pretty MC hoggy. (and even Star Ocean 3 I thought was pretty wasteful wanting over 1 of the 8 MB on the PS2 card, I assume just so it could take screenshots for each of its achivement-type things) And I was like... WHY? Even the latest Pokemon only uses 1 MB saves, I think. (I can't imagine the stat-tracking on fictitious creatures and digitalized athletes being too much different, memory wise)

  3. #23
    Lvl 99 Custom rank graphic
    Daria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    5,214
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    3 Posts
    Xbox LIVE
    Nymphomatic

    Default

    I dunno, I remember getting PC games back in the day and having to wait around for lengthy installations. Problem is modern consoles are just a crap ton of DRM away from being desktop computers.

  4. #24
    Bell (Level 8)
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Default

    One more example of modern BS I don't think has been brought up enough.
    While some like Tanooki call digital sales "rentals", Adobe has LITERALLY been doing that for a few years now, haven't they?
    You can't even buy Photoshop anymore, you can only "subscribe" and pledge to pay Adobe $10-80/month for eternity.
    Though didn't EA announce something similar a few years ago?

  5. #25
    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,964
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    You're correct and my wife has a sub for it since she needs it for her stuff she works on which is very annoying. If there's any consolation prize it was the fact that Adobe made CS2 a free download for anyone to use which is still a very powerful tool and you can apply plugins to beef it up further. I grabbed that when it went live.

    Yes I call them rentals, but it just seems dishonest calling them digital downloads because the intent behind the name is saying you paid for it, it's your digital download. But it really isn't. It's a rental because you don't own it, and eventually it goes back into their vault whenever they pull the plug so it fit and that's why I started using the term. Short of GoG or independent sellers, anything downloaded anymore you just don't own, it's a rented out license that can be revoked at any time for any reason by the owners of the code.

  6. #26
    FPGA arm-based system Custom rank graphic
    bb_hood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,091
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    46
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    21 Posts
    PSN
    bb_hood99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Yes I call them rentals, but it just seems dishonest calling them digital downloads because the intent behind the name is saying you paid for it, it's your digital download. But it really isn't. It's a rental because you don't own it, and eventually it goes back into their vault whenever they pull the plug so it fit and that's why I started using the term. Short of GoG or independent sellers, anything downloaded anymore you just don't own, it's a rented out license that can be revoked at any time for any reason by the owners of the code.
    Except.. that is not how it works at all. Nintendo or Sony is not going to come into my house and remove the games from my hard drive. The games wont just vanish someday for some unkown reason. Game companies cant just 'revoke' games from your hard drive.

  7. #27
    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,964
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    Well duh, that was a stupid comment. When I write something like that I'm thinking long term and the what if's of things. What if your system dies and you need to replace it? Sure you have the discs but none of the patches. Do I really have to spell that out to stop snarky posts?

    So no you don't own it. Let's say 10 years from now you want your PS3 games you as I put it 'rented' from PSN, but let's say they no longer host them at all since they've moved onto PS5 by that point. What do you do? You pay up again and buy the games again used on a disc, but then what about all those discs that didn't work correct out of the box that needed a patch or two in the coming days/months to make them alright? Nope, that's gone too, as they moved on.

    So yes you're renting your time with the game, or the optimal intended design of the game because once the downloads or patches are pulled, you're stuck. So yes, actually that IS how it works exactly. Sure some crafty few will find ways to hack that system in time and throw patches on there, but for the majority it's not a longer term system like the PS2 was, none of them are anymore. You won't be coming back to your PS3 in 25 years like the NES and going, damn I'd like to play that again, and have it happen at all unless you're lucky and your system is still working, the downloads and patches are there, and it all fires up as intended. Buying a used system far into the future isn't going to be an open and easy option, it will be there, but you'll be stuck with the limitation of the discs made and how buggy or not they were at launch.
    Last edited by Tanooki; 12-06-2015 at 10:08 PM.

  8. #28
    Great Puma (Level 12)
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,932
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bb_hood View Post
    Except.. that is not how it works at all. Nintendo or Sony is not going to come into my house and remove the games from my hard drive. The games wont just vanish someday for some unkown reason. Game companies cant just 'revoke' games from your hard drive.
    There are countless games that have vanished or are otherwise revoked because they required server support that is no longer there. Hooray, you have the game on your system and the company isn't likely to gestapo in an take it. Good luck playing it.

  9. #29
    FPGA arm-based system Custom rank graphic
    bb_hood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,091
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    46
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    21 Posts
    PSN
    bb_hood99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Well duh, that was a stupid comment.
    If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    What if your system dies and you need to replace it? Sure you have the discs but none of the patches. Do I really have to spell that out to stop snarky posts?

    So no you don't own it. Let's say 10 years from now you want your PS3 games you as I put it 'rented' from PSN, but let's say they no longer host them at all since they've moved onto PS5 by that point. What do you do? You pay up again and buy the games again used on a disc, but then what about all those discs that didn't work correct out of the box that needed a patch or two in the coming days/months to make them alright? Nope, that's gone too, as they moved on.

    So yes you're renting your time with the game, or the optimal intended design of the game because once the downloads or patches are pulled, you're stuck. So yes, actually that IS how it works exactly. Sure some crafty few will find ways to hack that system in time and throw patches on there, but for the majority it's not a longer term system like the PS2 was, none of them are anymore. You won't be coming back to your PS3 in 25 years like the NES and going, damn I'd like to play that again, and have it happen at all unless you're lucky and your system is still working, the downloads and patches are there, and it all fires up as intended. Buying a used system far into the future isn't going to be an open and easy option, it will be there, but you'll be stuck with the limitation of the discs made and how buggy or not they were at launch.
    If you have the current updated version of a game downloaded its not going to stop working if ps3 loses online support. Im not talking about disc games that require servers.
    If your hard drive crashes the games can be re-downloaded multiple times and you can back them up on other hard drives if need be. You can call them rentals all you want but that doesnt mean much.
    Last edited by bb_hood; 12-07-2015 at 04:39 AM.

  10. #30
    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,964
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    It's reality calling it that. Do we have to keep ignoring that informed gamers are very few and far between who know they can back up their console hard drives and have the capability to utilize that data if there's a failure, and even less know how to hack the box so they could get patches while they exist now so they could be reapplied later? I'll admit straight up I have no idea how to hack my PS3 so I can swipe patches off the internet and apply them a decade or two down the line if I want to fix a jacked up disc I paid for, and I also have no idea how I could back that data up on a portable drive or whatever if I ever had a PS3 failure and replaced it with another USED one so I could tap into my data again. All that requires special work, it's not right there in the manual saying -- go here and get your patches and get your data back on the system, because by then they don't care they've moved on many times over. The whole point of it is, we're in a console rental type purchase system now if you don't go physical, and even if you do a lot of stuff comes out with problems these days and get patched out and eventually those patches will vanish. Then what? These aren't cards and cartridges where things were properly tested to work before release with the very rare case something so game breaking got a re-issue (like gray Turok Rage Wars.)'

    I've got nothing against the modern hardware, but I just feel it has no value beyond it's company set expiration date when they move onto the next is all so when they move on (Sony) I do to and ditch the stuff. I can't validate keeping things that won't eventually work anymore as they'll just be useless. At least the older 20th century stuff short of a motherboard or a chip on cart failure will still work, and if they fail, go buy another, no patches or voodoo needed or permission to be allowed to use it either. It's why I support strongly GoG.com as you get what you pay for and they keep it working through the years and os changes making it a quality investment.

    Jsoup makes a good point there too, games that get pulled, great you have them, but if the server support is gone, you're finished anyway as they can't take it from you but it won't work.

  11. #31
    FPGA arm-based system Custom rank graphic
    bb_hood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,091
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    46
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    21 Posts
    PSN
    bb_hood99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    It's reality calling it that. Do we have to keep ignoring that informed gamers are very few and far between who know they can back up their console hard drives and have the capability to utilize that data if there's a failure, and even less know how to hack the box so they could get patches while they exist now so they could be reapplied later? I'll admit straight up I have no idea how to hack my PS3 so I can swipe patches off the internet and apply them a decade or two down the line if I want to fix a jacked up disc I paid for, and I also have no idea how I could back that data up on a portable drive or whatever if I ever had a PS3 failure and replaced it with another USED one so I could tap into my data again. All that requires special work, it's not right there in the manual saying -- go here and get your patches and get your data back on the system, because by then they don't care they've moved on many times over. The whole point of it is, we're in a console rental type purchase system now if you don't go physical, and even if you do a lot of stuff comes out with problems these days and get patched out and eventually those patches will vanish. Then what? These aren't cards and cartridges where things were properly tested to work before release with the very rare case something so game breaking got a re-issue (like gray Turok Rage Wars.)'

    Its not hard to backup a ps3 hard drive, just because you dont know how doesnt mean its not easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    I've got nothing against the modern hardware, but I just feel it has no value beyond it's company set expiration date when they move onto the next is all so when they move on (Sony) I do to and ditch the stuff. I can't validate keeping things that won't eventually work anymore as they'll just be useless. At least the older 20th century stuff short of a motherboard or a chip on cart failure will still work, and if they fail, go buy another, no patches or voodoo needed or permission to be allowed to use it either. It's why I support strongly GoG.com as you get what you pay for and they keep it working through the years and os changes making it a quality investment.
    Everything will stop functioning at some point. Carts and discs will stop functioning at some point in time, so why dont you call those 'rentals' as well? You are fine with buying those more than once, but you wont download a game because 25 years later you MIGHT not be able to play it?
    I have PS3 & wii games that were downloaded 7+ years ago that still play and can still be re-downloaded for free if need be. You make it sound like these games will just stop working after a short period of time, which is not true.
    You praise GoG but shit on everything else.

  12. #32
    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,964
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    Look I'm not going to do this with you anymore. Clearly it's too hard for you to grasp that's beyond the capabilities or interest(me) of doing that or even figuring it out, and many others would likely have no clue it could even be done. People don't read, they don't think much in general either, it has to be in front of them and easy to do, this isn't. You're a gamer, have been for decades so it's a non-issue as you're in the gross minority that are both informed and engaged to do it. It's sad you can't get over that hump and see the big picture.

    Carts can be replaced that's why. They don't need a server, they don't need hard drive patches to work right, they don't need some central hub. You just go find it, buy it, shove it in the slot and hit the big power button and it plays. That's why it's not a rental. I've had a couple dead carts over the years I bought used, and replaced with non-dead ones, so no, it's not the same thing. I really have to wonder if you don't get this, or you're trolling for fun at this point.

    Good luck with that PS3 on its 30th anniversary, it won't be in the same league of ease or function the NES was on its. That's about as simple as a comparison that can be made here and yes I do shit on other download services on console or with a DRM wall frontend like Steam/Desura/etc because you don't own the game and how to control it, and on GoG you do. Again there's a difference there that's very simple to get.

  13. #33
    FPGA arm-based system Custom rank graphic
    bb_hood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,091
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    46
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    21 Posts
    PSN
    bb_hood99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Look I'm not going to do this with you anymore.
    ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    It's sad you can't get over that hump and see the big picture.
    Which is what? Since some people wont bother backing up a hard drive then its a waste of time for me to do so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    I really have to wonder if you don't get this, or you're trolling for fun at this point.
    Im not trolling, but this is fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Good luck with that PS3 on its 30th anniversary,
    Thanks! If my PS3 doesnt break and my hard drive doesnt crash all the games (except for bomberman online) will still be playable.
    When I purchase digital downloads Im not worried that they wont be playable 25-30 years from now. I dont need to feel like I 'own a game for eternity' in order to enjoy it.

  14. #34
    Bell (Level 8)
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Default

    I'm sure there's people that HAVE been backing up the patches so in 25-30 years it will be possible (in emulation, if needed).

    Not like Xband for SNES/Genesis or the Sega Channel-exclusives (ie US Mega Man: Wily Wars), and probably some Satellaview stuff as well (though I have heard of Japanese collectors knowing they have undumped Satellaview stuff and hoarding it, maybe even the remaining tracks in BS F-Zero 2?) where people didn't get it preserved while it was alive.

    I'm sure in time people will have ways to recover digital purchases on modern consoles (Wii and 3DS are stored in encrypted form on SD cards that can be backed up infinitely on PC, though will only decrypt on the original console). Right now it's piracy but in time will be necessary, and I'm sure by then the homebrew scene will have an easy recovery solution.
    I tried looking at preserving my 3DS stuff but came to the conclusion it's not worth a brick while the system is alive.
    Last edited by SparTonberry; 12-08-2015 at 12:23 AM.

  15. #35
    ServBot (Level 11) Edmond Dantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,868
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    32
    Thanked in
    31 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bb_hood View Post
    Which is what? Since some people wont bother backing up a hard drive then its a waste of time for me to do so?
    Now, personally I don't think Tanooki is stating his point as clearly as he could, but even I got that he's not talking specifically about you or himself--he's talking in a general sense. The fact is, many download-only, DRM-locked games will in fact be lost over time simply because of consumer ignorance.

    Yes, YOU know how to back up your hard drive. Do you also buy every game and download every patch and DLC too? I doubt it. So only the games you personally preserved will (as far as you know) still exist in 20 years... and then might not be playable. And that's just kind of a sad situation in general.

  16. #36
    FPGA arm-based system Custom rank graphic
    bb_hood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,091
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    46
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    21 Posts
    PSN
    bb_hood99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond Dantes View Post
    Now, personally I don't think Tanooki is stating his point as clearly as he could, but even I got that he's not talking specifically about you or himself--he's talking in a general sense. The fact is, many download-only, DRM-locked games will in fact be lost over time simply because of consumer ignorance.

    Yes, YOU know how to back up your hard drive. Do you also buy every game and download every patch and DLC too? I doubt it. So only the games you personally preserved will (as far as you know) still exist in 20 years... and then might not be playable. And that's just kind of a sad situation in general.
    Im sure that some consumers dont care or may not be aware how to back up a hard drive, but its still an option to help preserve games you have paid for. And these games wont just vanish off of a functional hard drive once you buy them. To say that downloading games is analogous to renting them makes no sense. When was the last time you rented a video game or movie and was allowed to keep it for 20-30 years? When I pay for downloads its because I want the content now, and Im not concerned about 20 years later.

  17. #37
    Strawberry (Level 2) CRTGAMER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Southern CA
    Posts
    402
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    One issue of the DRM games is the continual online authentication to run a purchased download even if only played offline. If PS4-WiiU-XboxOne downloads are like Steam, then the games are definitely Rentals. Backing up the hard drive would not help in this case.

    One Member back at Racketboy reported that ALL his Steam games on his hard drive got instantly locked out when he did not sign an update agreement with Steam. The games became magically unlocked after he signed the new arbitration rules set by Steam.
    Last edited by CRTGAMER; 12-08-2015 at 08:21 AM.
    CRTGAMER Guides and Reviews
    Apple II+, APF MP1000, Atari 5200 7800, Vic20, TI994A, SX64, Educ64, 128D, Vectrex, N64, PS1, iMac CRT, Dreamcast, PS2, Gameboy Advance, Gamecube, GBA Player, PSP, Wii, PS3 Emotion chip, Samsung Impression, VHS, CED, Video 8, Pioneer Laser, DVD, Sony WEGA HDCRT

  18. #38
    Kirby (Level 13) Tanooki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,964
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    Edmond basically yes that was the points.

    CRT-- I remember seeing that. I was tempted to try it myself as I hate clicking on all that EULA legal gibberish, but just didn't want the headache. It's pretty bad though if you don't agree to their DRM terms stuff you pay for is no longer allowed to be used, but that's what the fine print is there for to remind you that you don't own a game on there, you own the right to use it as long as you continually agree to the amending of the rights they require you to agree to.

  19. #39
    ServBot (Level 11) BHvrd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Somewhere getting an all-over tan.
    Posts
    3,354
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    In an effort to bring this topic back out of left field, i'll just say yeah the shit has gotten complicated and good heads up for some parents that may get caught up in the hype and forget all this shiznit.

  20. #40
    Banana (Level 7) Zing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,492
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    I was six-years-old when I opened my ColecoVision Christmas morning. I had it set up and playing Donkey Kong before my parents even woke up. I bought a Wii U a full year after its release and it took about four hours before I could play anything, and this was with a physical disc!

    I bought a PS3 recently and it took about an hour to setup and download one digital game on an Internet connection far faster than PSN can consume. I think this is one problem with the current generation. PSN download speeds are ridiculously slow regardless of platform.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 32
    Last Post: 09-18-2007, 11:37 AM
  2. Weekend Finds - Christmas Eve and Christmas Day
    By McBacon in forum Classic Gaming
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-28-2005, 08:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •