Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Strange Picture Warping - TV Issue or Something Else?

  1. #1
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default Strange Picture Warping - TV Issue or Something Else?

    I'm having a bit of an odd issue that's hard to describe, and since I'm playing on a CRT I can't effectively take pictures of this effect. Basically most of the game systems that I have hooked up to a 32 inch Toshiba CRT that is new enough to have component inputs (I can provide a model number if needed, but that's probably not important) is displaying most of the output from my game systems in an odd way. The effect varies from system to system (details below), but generally what I'll see is a gradual curving of the image on the right side of the screen. From the top, the image will start off being flush against the edge of the TV as you would expect. About halfway down, it will gradually start curving in toward the center of the screen, and once you hit the bottom it will have visibly curved in at least an inch. I did some testing with each of the systems hooked up to this TV, and this is what I found:

    Super Famicom (component) - Curvature on right as mentioned above
    PC Engine (component) - Curvature on right as mentioned above
    PS2 (component) - Extreme curvature on both left and right sides
    XBox (s-video) - Seemed ok
    Gamecube (s-video) - Slight curvature on both sides
    N64 (s-video) - Seemed ok

    So as you can see there seems to be no rhyme or reason to what does it and what doesn't. I'm guessing that this can only be an issue with my TV, since I've tested this without running the systems through any switch boxes or capture devices (just straight into the TV's inputs). The only thing that gives me pause is that some systems do it and some don't. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks!

  2. #2
    ServBot (Level 11) Niku-Sama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Deadford, OR
    Posts
    3,759
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    35
    Thanked in
    31 Posts

    Default

    Sounds like the geometry of the TV is getting out of whack. Probably age related, could be caps going bad attributing to it to. Component able crt puts it squarely in the era of the capacitor plague.
    Probably have to find a service manual to find the adjustments inside the TV to fix it

  3. #3
    ServeBot (Lɘvel 11) RP2A03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    59 6F 75 72 20 48 44 44 20 61 64 64 69 6E 67 20 65 6D 62 61 72 72 61 73 73 69 6E 67 20 64 61 74 61
    Posts
    3,548
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    It is also possible that the yoke has shifted.
    Mario says "... if you do drugs, you go to hell before you die."

  4. #4
    Pretzel (Level 4) understatement's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    The Boondocks in Ms
    Posts
    941
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    When you ran the systems directly to the TV were the cables you used still close by the other systems cables? The reason I ask is because it sounds like a problem I'm having, now that my rat nest of system cables has gotten so bad that on most of my systems the picture curves and even rolls around at times. I'm not 100% sure because I haven't had time to reorganize everything to test it but the most likely thing is the cables are getting outside interference from the other cables. Unlike digital where there isn't really anything that could interfere with the signal it's much different with analog where a host of things can screw with the signal. So it could be the quality of the cables insulation is letting in interference from the surroundings or the length of the cable might be too long for the power output of the system if you're using aftermarket cables. There's a few other things that can interfere with the signal but I think those are the two main ones. If you test and rule out outside interference then it might be the TV. Good luck, hope this helps.
    My Ebay Feedback My DP Feedback
    VVV Work in Progress VVV

  5. #5
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    I actually had that same thought and unhooked the s-video cables running into the TV, to make it so the component was the only set of cables going to the TV. Given that the problem still persists in that state, I don't think this has anything to do with it. Shockingly there was still a guy who services CRTs in my area, and when he looked at it he seemed to think that any issues would be board related. Since there isn't going to be much of a chance of finding a very specific CRT board, he recommended the same thing I was thinking which is just find a new one on Craig's List or something. Sadly CRTs with component are not the easiest thing to find in my area, even on Craig's List.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    When you ran the systems directly to the TV were the cables you used still close by the other systems cables? The reason I ask is because it sounds like a problem I'm having, now that my rat nest of system cables has gotten so bad that on most of my systems the picture curves and even rolls around at times. I'm not 100% sure because I haven't had time to reorganize everything to test it but the most likely thing is the cables are getting outside interference from the other cables. Unlike digital where there isn't really anything that could interfere with the signal it's much different with analog where a host of things can screw with the signal. So it could be the quality of the cables insulation is letting in interference from the surroundings or the length of the cable might be too long for the power output of the system if you're using aftermarket cables. There's a few other things that can interfere with the signal but I think those are the two main ones. If you test and rule out outside interference then it might be the TV. Good luck, hope this helps.

  6. #6
    Alex (Level 15) Custom rank graphic
    Gameguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Richmond Hill, Ontario (Canada)
    Posts
    7,385
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    42
    Thanked in
    36 Posts

    Default

    Rather than trying to replace the board, it may be possible to try and repair the board. Lots of electronic repair shops only know how to repair items by replacing entire boards rather than actually repair the parts on a component level. It could be something as simple as failing capacitors causing issues.

    It's the same with computer shops. If the problem is capacitors failing on a motherboard, most would rather just replace the entire motherboard rather than replace the caps.

    Just a last option to try before trashing the whole TV.

  7. #7
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Quick update to this issue: I actually managed to track down a Sony Trinitron KV-27FS13 on Craig's List in what seems to be good working order, and it seems in general to be on the higher regarded end of Trinitrons as far as my research has shown me. People say it supports up to 480i signals, so for that reason it still works with lightgun games, etc.

    Anyway, I was hoping that this would fix my previous issue completely. When I picked it up the guy had a VCR hooked up to it and things looked fine, so I was fairly certain I could rule out any major issues. Got it home and hooked up everything to it, and well...it fixed some of my problems but not all.

    I'll keep the examples simple. I ran a Super Famicom directly into it (no switch boxes) in two ways: Using HD Retrovision's recent SNES component cables, and also a Monster S-Video cable that I've had for a long time. In both cases I get a much less prevalent case of what I had reported before some weird picture warping around the right edge, but it is still there. I attempted to take as good of a picture of it as I could to try to illustrate what I'm talking about: You may notice in the image (the right side of my screen) that there is some black extending out in a rather irregular way past the masking on the side of the screen. The left side of the screen has none of this at all.

    http://www.mognet.net/20160731_212515.jpg

    Now with this TV I've also tested out newer hardware, such as the Saturn and the Gamecube, both running through S-video. I did not notice any of this distortion at all on either of those, whereas I definitely did on my previous TV.

    So my question now is, do you think it's just a quirk of a lot of TVs in handling some of the older systems with much lower resolutions (I have similar problems with my Famicom as well)? I just don't know what to think at this point given the quality of the set I'm now using, and how unlikely it probably is that both of these TVs have some sort of board issue.

  8. #8
    ServeBot (Lɘvel 11) RP2A03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    59 6F 75 72 20 48 44 44 20 61 64 64 69 6E 67 20 65 6D 62 61 72 72 61 73 73 69 6E 67 20 64 61 74 61
    Posts
    3,548
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Do you have a boarder on the left side of the raster? It could be tilted there as well, but it is not noticeable because you do not have a straight edge to look at. Also, look at the top and bottom to see if there is any tilting there. If all sides are tilted then it is because the whole raster is tilted. If just the left/right sides are tilted then have a trapezoidal geometry defect. Your TV probably has a service menu where tilt and trapezoid can be adjusted. Also keep in mind that no CRT will have perfect geometry.
    Mario says "... if you do drugs, you go to hell before you die."

  9. #9
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    I don't have any kind of tilting on the left side, which I think is the real reason why I'm noticing this. Everything is perfectly up against the masking on that side. Nor have I noticed any sort of tilting on the top or bottom either. For what it's worth, the Famicom seems to manifest its tilting completely differently: Pulling in on the left side rather than the right (I don't have a picture of that just yet).

    Thanks for the suggestion of the service menu, I'll look into that to see how I can access it. I've found the standard menu to adjust sharpness, color, etc. but I'm guessing this one is a bit more hidden.

    And yeah, part of the reason I brought this up was also to raise the question of "Am I just being overly picky here?". And if the answer is yes, then so be it! I only just recently really got back into using CRTs for gaming, so my expectations may be way too high and these things may have always existed and I'm just not remembering them. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by RP2A03 View Post
    Do you have a boarder on the left side of the raster? It could be tilted there as well, but it is not noticeable because you do not have a straight edge to look at. Also, look at the top and bottom to see if there is any tilting there. If all sides are tilted then it is because the whole raster is tilted. If just the left/right sides are tilted then have a trapezoidal geometry defect. Your TV probably has a service menu where tilt and trapezoid can be adjusted. Also keep in mind that no CRT will have perfect geometry.

  10. #10
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Fyi, here's an image of what the Famicom is doing:

    http://www.mognet.net/20160801_072209.jpg

    As you can see, it's on a totally different side than the Super Famicom was, the left side this time. And instead of cutting in at the middle, it's more kind of gradually cutting down. If this was some kind of tilting that can be adjusted via a service menu, would it really manifest itself so different between two different pieces of hardware? That's the part that's currently confusing me.

  11. #11
    Great Puma (Level 12) Bratwurst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,457
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    13
    Thanked in
    10 Posts

    Default

    Most CRT televisions had potentiometers you could adjust to shift that tilt out, it's related to the vertical circuit. Being a newer set it is likely all digital so you will have to track down the service manual for that model, to determine how to pull up the service menu, which you can adjust on-screen with the television remote or whatever.

    Your local TV repair guy isn't worth beans if he told you to buy another television instead of addressing this issue. He sounds like someone who just swaps out whole boards and does nothing on the component level.

  12. #12
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Thanks! I should note that this is a different TV than the one that a local repair guy looked at, but after hearing this I think I probably agree with you. Either way, I'm not sorry I replaced that other TV with this Trinitron, as I think it has advantages in many other ways.

    I think I tracked down how to get into the service menu online for this model, so I'm going to try that. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which settings would be worth messing around with? I'm guessing anything involving "tilt"?

    http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showth...gs-suggestions

    Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I feel like I should mention this again: This doesn't seem to happen with any piece of hardware beyond the Super Famicom (at least that I've seen so far). If I make service menu adjustments, I'm guessing I'll have to undo those adjustments when I'm playing something that displays correctly now? For some reason this inconsistency still seems very odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bratwurst View Post
    Most CRT televisions had potentiometers you could adjust to shift that tilt out, it's related to the vertical circuit. Being a newer set it is likely all digital so you will have to track down the service manual for that model, to determine how to pull up the service menu, which you can adjust on-screen with the television remote or whatever.

    Your local TV repair guy isn't worth beans if he told you to buy another television instead of addressing this issue. He sounds like someone who just swaps out whole boards and does nothing on the component level.
    Last edited by stiltzkin; 08-01-2016 at 08:56 AM.

  13. #13
    ServeBot (Lɘvel 11) RP2A03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    59 6F 75 72 20 48 44 44 20 61 64 64 69 6E 67 20 65 6D 62 61 72 72 61 73 73 69 6E 67 20 64 61 74 61
    Posts
    3,548
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    I think the raster is tilted. Unless the tilt is especially large it can be hard to see unless you have a straight edge near the end of the screen, which is what you have on the right side in the first picture and on the left on the second picture. If the image is extending beyond the bezel (which is a normal occurrence) it can be hard to see the tilt. It is probably there on the later systems as well, but since they tend to use the entire visible area you have a harder time noticing. I would be willing to bet that this tilt goes away if you point the back of the tube west.

    Also, if you poke around the service menu be very careful. Write down the original settings so you can change them back if necessary and don't change anything if you don't know what you are doing. The wrong adjustment can cause permanent damage. Whatever you do; do NOT perform a factory rest.

    Here is the service manual: http://diagramasde.com/diagramas/otr...17_ch_ba-5.pdf

    What you need starts on page 16.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bratwurst View Post
    Your local TV repair guy isn't worth beans if he told you to buy another television instead of addressing this issue. He sounds like someone who just swaps out whole boards and does nothing on the component level.
    There are probably not many professionals left who really know what they are doing when it comes to CRTs.
    Last edited by RP2A03; 08-01-2016 at 11:43 AM.
    Mario says "... if you do drugs, you go to hell before you die."

  14. #14
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Found the service manual earlier and played around with what seemed like the appropriate settings. I definitely didn't find any magic options that just fixed it completely, but I certainly found some settings that with small changes made it somewhat better. The real problem seems to be that everything adjusts primarily from the corners, so none of those angle or pin-based options did quite enough to get that sag out of the middle that see on the first Super Famicom screenshot.

    Interesting theory about pointing the back of the tube west. It's currently facing south, so I can certainly give that a try later to see if it does anything. Don't know if I can realistically change my setup to accommodate it pointing that way, but at least if that was the problem I would actually know what's causing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RP2A03 View Post
    I think the raster is tilted. Unless the tilt is especially large it can be hard to see unless you have a straight edge near the end of the screen, which is what you have on the right side in the first picture and on the left on the second picture. If the image is extending beyond the bezel (which is a normal occurrence) it can be hard to see the tilt. It is probably there on the later systems as well, but since they tend to use the entire visible area you have a harder time noticing. I would be willing to bet that this tilt goes away if you point the back of the tube west.

    Also, if you poke around the service menu be very careful. Write down the original settings so you can change them back if necessary and don't change anything if you don't know what you are doing. The wrong adjustment can cause permanent damage. Whatever you do; do NOT perform a factory rest.

    Here is the service manual: http://diagramasde.com/diagramas/otr...17_ch_ba-5.pdf

    What you need starts on page 16.





    There are probably not many professionals left who really know what they are doing when it comes to CRTs.

  15. #15
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    25
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Facing the back of the tube west resulted in absolutely no change. I think I'll just spend some quality time with the service menu and the 240p test suite tonight and see what I can manage to fix.

Similar Threads

  1. Strange NES issue
    By BetaWolf47 in forum Technical and Restoration Society
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-23-2009, 12:01 AM
  2. Strange PS2 Issue
    By dcware in forum Technical and Restoration Society
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-15-2005, 05:38 PM
  3. Mod please delete post, thanks strange board issue
    By Ackman in forum Classic Gaming
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-08-2005, 03:10 AM
  4. Strange RF issue
    By congobongo in forum Technical and Restoration Society
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-27-2005, 07:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •