EmuParadise has removed its entire library of retro game ROMs and ISOs

[Aussie2B]

today's game publishers, including Nintendo, have actually PROFITED world-wide as a result of emulation and rom distribution.

Maybe if you average everything out that's true, but there are also plenty of niche developers/publishers who have had to shut down because piracy hurt them so bad. Action games and other such games with a lot of replay value may benefit from ROMs/ISOs if people are using them to "try before you buy", but with genres that people don't tend to replay, like visual novels, most will not bother to buy an official releases after they've played through it illegally. This is also reflected in how many games are passed for localization when a fan patch exists. The publishers know that will eat into their potential sales. Hell, even full Let's Play series hurt the sales of story-focused games. This is mirrored in other industries too, like how there are tons of people who blow through manga scanlations with a voracious appetite and never bother to buy an official localization of anything they've already read.

[bb_hood]

With ISO's being store, I can't even imagine the hosting costs these sites incurred in the past. As a result, they began having ads to recoup. I have to assume that grew to the point where the hosting party may have been profiting substantially. That said, good grief the LoveROMS owners were IDIOTS.

The LoveRoms website was receiving 17 million visitors each month at the time it was closed, and had been operating for at least 3 years. The owner was asking for donations as well. I think its fair to assume that the single site owner had a pretty good racket going. That much traffic, it was only a matter of time before everything would just blow up in the owner's face. He ran a public website that blatantly infringed on Nintendo's IPs millions of times. Its like, you cant break the law millions of times while attracting alot of attention and making lots of money and expect nothing negative to happen. So yeah, hes a huge moron, and hes totally screwed.

Regarding EmuParadise, I guess we gotta just wait and see. They very well could get sued, they are obviously as guilty as LoveRoms is. Nintendo might just be making 'an example' out of LoveRoms, but they also might have many other lawsuits ready to be filed against other rom/emulation site owners.

[Greg2600]

Maybe if you average everything out that's true, but there are also plenty of niche developers/publishers who have had to shut down because piracy hurt them so bad. Action games and other such games with a lot of replay value may benefit from ROMs/ISOs if people are using them to "try before you buy", but with genres that people don't tend to replay, like visual novels, most will not bother to buy an official releases after they've played through it illegally. This is also reflected in how many games are passed for localization when a fan patch exists. The publishers know that will eat into their potential sales. Hell, even full Let's Play series hurt the sales of story-focused games. This is mirrored in other industries too, like how there are tons of people who blow through manga scanlations with a voracious appetite and never bother to buy an official localization of anything they've already read.

Well, sites hosting games from active consoles are simply asking to be sued. One has to assume that LOVEroms simply didn't heed the C&D's from Nintendo, and this is what it's come to. My point on the benefiting was in the Vice article. You had programmers who were inspired and even learned via emulation, not to mention current fans who couldn't afford many games. Plus you have many publishers and sites like GOG making money based on open source emulation that was only possible through piracy of games, of course.

As for EmuParadise, ehhh, I find their move to be strange. They've been on-line for 18 years, and no one outside of Nintendo cares. Are French Atari, slimey Cardillo's "Coleco", or Tommy Tallarico INTV going to start sending C&D letters, I doubt it? Hell even Sony doesn't seem to care. We know SEGA won't lift a finger. Had they just removed Nintendo first party stuff, would have been fine.

[Aussie2B]

Perhaps they would've been fine, but that just goes to show that none of these ROM/ISO hosts that claim to just be preservationists have a leg to stand on. If they really wanted to be respectable, and also keep out of trouble, they'd 1) never profit from other people's work that they have no legal right to host and distribute, and 2) make sure they aren't hosting a single game that's available on the current market. Even if it's a retro game, if it can still be bought legally via Virtual Console, PSN, Steam, etc., then they absolutely shouldn't be hosting it. But going back to issue #1, they probably realize if they remove all the big-name games that Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, etc. are still selling, then they'd likely see a lot less traffic and in turn make less money.

[bb_hood]

If they really wanted to be respectable, and also keep out of trouble, they'd 1) never profit from other people's work that they have no legal right to host and distribute,

This.

As for EmuParadise, ehhh, I find their move to be strange. They've been on-line for 18 years,

Well, LoveRoms just got sued for potentially millions/billions of dollars for doing the exact same thing... so the VERY least EmuParadise should do is shut down.

[Greg2600]

They were sued by Nintendo, who can't file suit on behalf of Atari or Sega or Microsoft. That was my point. Just remove the Nintendo stuff.

[bb_hood]

They were sued by Nintendo, who can't file suit on behalf of Atari or Sega or Microsoft. That was my point. Just remove the Nintendo stuff.

Ok i see. But still, how long did EmuParadise operate? 18 years? All during which Im sure people thought that 'Nintendo simply does not care that we freely share their IPs', until one day we see Nintendo file this huge lawsuit against one guy.
If Nintendo can sue, so can Sony, Atari, Sega. Its always gonna seem like "They dont care" until the lawsuits come.

[Tupin]

Man, it sure is great that Nintendo offers a current service where I can easily download all/a majority of their retro libraries for a reasonable price, own them forever, and have up-to-date emulation! Oh, wait.

[Greg2600]

Ok i see. But still, how long did EmuParadise operate? 18 years? All during which Im sure people thought that 'Nintendo simply does not care that we freely share their IPs', until one day we see Nintendo file this huge lawsuit against one guy.
If Nintendo can sue, so can Sony, Atari, Sega. Its always gonna seem like "They dont care" until the lawsuits come.

I understand, and like I said, I think they went further than they had to. Nintendo is simply super litigious. I mean, let's not forget them going after Let's Play youtube videos. Plus, as the VICE writer mentioned, their "Netflix" style retro component for the Switch is due out, so they want people using that. Fine, but as the author also points out, there are tons of games that Nintendo will never make available. Anything with a Hollywood license is basically DOA.

[gbpxl]

Copyright infringement is inethical, immoral, and illegal. Anyone who has ever had their work stolen from them understands this concept.

[Pr3tty F1y]

Copyright infringement is inethical, immoral, and illegal. Anyone who has ever had their work stolen from them understands this concept.

True, but games have been preserved through the rom/emulation scene. Bitrot is real. Physical roms and optical disks fall apart. If you have enough people sharing enough copies of game images, these games will survive into the future. If you don't, some will surely be lost forever. Even Nintendo themselves uses roms downloaded from the internet for their Virtual Console games and the like. They're not recompiling the source code or dumping their own carts. The source code likely doesn't even exist for many games and many companies have folded and such assets lost.

I know that the preservation argument is lame when it comes to someone who personally has had their work stolen. Nonetheless, digital media is risky from a historical standpoint and hence why backup copies of old games and other software being shared is important if we want to retain an exact record for future generations.

[Aussie2B]

Man, it sure is great that Nintendo offers a current service where I can easily download all/a majority of their retro libraries for a reasonable price, own them forever, and have up-to-date emulation! Oh, wait.

The majority of the games on most Nintendo systems are third party. Nintendo doesn't own the IPs and doesn't have the legal right to list them for sale. It's also rather unreasonable to expect them to let you own a game forever AND continue to update the emulator. If you've owned something for, say, 10+ years, nobody is under any obligation to keep supporting the service for that product, no different from how my SNES and my games for it are no longer under warranty and I can't expect Nintendo to still offer maintenance service and such for them. I can keep them forever, but I'm on my own with them past a certain point.

[ScourDX]

I kinda curious why Nintendo all of the sudden would go after rom host site. Do they want to crack down on the switch homebrew scene by cutting off the rom site. Nintendo is known for shutting down fan games. A2MR project was shut down because Nintendo did release Samus return for 3ds. Perhaps there is more to this than Nintendo shutting down rom site.

[Tupin]

I kinda curious why Nintendo all of the sudden would go after rom host site. Do they want to crack down on the switch homebrew scene by cutting off the rom site. Nintendo is known for shutting down fan games. A2MR project was shut down because Nintendo did release Samus return for 3ds. Perhaps there is more to this than Nintendo shutting down rom site.

NES/SNES Classics, I would assume.

[Greg2600]

Steal someone's work? Uh, that someone didn't get paid anything more than a salary when he/she created the game! Do you think David Crane gets a royalty when Pitfall! is put on a retail compilation? Or Kojima when a Metal Gear Solid game is remastered and resold by Sony on a new console? No shot. Compensation like this has never really occurred. You see unlike performance arts, video gaming has never unionized. There's no SAG or guild of some kind fighting for them to get a share. No, any value to the IP is held by corporations, most of which did zilch to produce that game. Often they've simply absorbed them from prior owners.

[Steve W]

I liked EmuParadise because you could download entire ROM libraries of cartridge based machines, which was super handy. I can't really do that with anything CD-based, though. And my emulator of choice only takes bin/cue files, which eliminates most of EmuParadise's library. I guess I better start hunting down as many PS1 bin/cue titles as I can before the sites that host them get the axe.

[Aussie2B]

Steal someone's work? Uh, that someone didn't get paid anything more than a salary when he/she created the game! Do you think David Crane gets a royalty when Pitfall! is put on a retail compilation? Or Kojima when a Metal Gear Solid game is remastered and resold by Sony on a new console? No shot. Compensation like this has never really occurred. You see unlike performance arts, video gaming has never unionized. There's no SAG or guild of some kind fighting for them to get a share. No, any value to the IP is held by corporations, most of which did zilch to produce that game. Often they've simply absorbed them from prior owners.

There are union workers in the game industry. Just look at the whole big deal involving voice actors not that long ago.

Even if the individual programmers, graphic designers, etc. aren't getting royalties or some such (and sometimes the big-shots do, like how Koichi Sugiyama owns all of his music in Dragon Quest, so Square Enix can't use it or re-release any of the old games without his approval and compensating him), if piracy hurts a small developer/publisher, they may have to lay people off or keep their salaries stagnant. There are also a lot of freelancers in the industry, so they may not be offered additional gigs or their pay rates might not increase, when the developer/publisher may have used their services more often or offered them a higher pay rate otherwise. Like I was saying before, not everybody in the industry is a mega corporation or working for one. It's like Walmart versus a mom & pop store. You may argue that shoplifting won't hurt the former, but it can definitely hurt the latter, both the business owner(s) and the employees. And publishers deserve credit for games too, not just the specific individuals who make them. If not for the publisher funding a project, the individuals wouldn't have a job, and the game wouldn't get made. So acting like it's a victimless crime because you're not stealing DIRECTLY from one of the game's creators is disingenuous.

Even if we're talking about IPs changing hands and none of the original staff behind a game still working for the current IP holder, the current IP holder still has their current staff to pay, and if the current IP holder is re-releasing those old IPs, then the current staff is working to make those games available on current platforms, providing all the programming, asset creation, marketing, customer support, etc. necessary. I've bought recent ports/remakes like Romancing Saga 2 and Secret of Mana, and I don't know who among their original staffs are still working for Square Enix (obviously not Secret of Mana's artist, who passed away some time ago). But I'm still not about to pirate the SNES/SFC versions of the games instead just because I can't necessarily compensate the original creators. I still appreciate the work Square Enix put in to make the games available on modern platforms, so I want to compensate them for that. And they're one of the aforementioned huge corporations. I all the more want to support tiny publishers, like when I buy games from MangaGamer, a company plagued with piracy.

[fluid_matrix]

I liked EmuParadise because you could download entire ROM libraries of cartridge based machines, which was super handy. I can't really do that with anything CD-based, though. And my emulator of choice only takes bin/cue files, which eliminates most of EmuParadise's library. I guess I better start hunting down as many PS1 bin/cue titles as I can before the sites that host them get the axe.

There are still torrential amounts of places to get full sets of roms.

[gbpxl]

Steal someone's work? Uh, that someone didn't get paid anything more than a salary when he/she created the game! Do you think David Crane gets a royalty when Pitfall! is put on a retail compilation? Or Kojima when a Metal Gear Solid game is remastered and resold by Sony on a new console? No shot. Compensation like this has never really occurred. You see unlike performance arts, video gaming has never unionized. There's no SAG or guild of some kind fighting for them to get a share. No, any value to the IP is held by corporations, most of which did zilch to produce that game. Often they've simply absorbed them from prior owners.

That's like justifying sneaking into the Louvre since Vincent Van Gogh isn't receiving a check every time someone buys a ticket.

[Greg2600]

That's like justifying sneaking into the Louvre since Vincent Van Gogh isn't receiving a check every time someone buys a ticket.

Difference is the Van Gogh is available.

There are union workers in the game industry. Just look at the whole big deal involving voice actors not that long ago.

Even if the individual programmers, graphic designers, etc. aren't getting royalties or some such (and sometimes the big-shots do, like how Koichi Sugiyama owns all of his music in Dragon Quest, so Square Enix can't use it or re-release any of the old games without his approval and compensating him), if piracy hurts a small developer/publisher, they may have to lay people off or keep their salaries stagnant. There are also a lot of freelancers in the industry, so they may not be offered additional gigs or their pay rates might not increase, when the developer/publisher may have used their services more often or offered them a higher pay rate otherwise. Like I was saying before, not everybody in the industry is a mega corporation or working for one. It's like Walmart versus a mom & pop store. You may argue that shoplifting won't hurt the former, but it can definitely hurt the latter, both the business owner(s) and the employees. And publishers deserve credit for games too, not just the specific individuals who make them. If not for the publisher funding a project, the individuals wouldn't have a job, and the game wouldn't get made. So acting like it's a victimless crime because you're not stealing DIRECTLY from one of the game's creators is disingenuous.

Even if we're talking about IPs changing hands and none of the original staff behind a game still working for the current IP holder, the current IP holder still has their current staff to pay, and if the current IP holder is re-releasing those old IPs, then the current staff is working to make those games available on current platforms, providing all the programming, asset creation, marketing, customer support, etc. necessary. I've bought recent ports/remakes like Romancing Saga 2 and Secret of Mana, and I don't know who among their original staffs are still working for Square Enix (obviously not Secret of Mana's artist, who passed away some time ago). But I'm still not about to pirate the SNES/SFC versions of the games instead just because I can't necessarily compensate the original creators. I still appreciate the work Square Enix put in to make the games available on modern platforms, so I want to compensate them for that. And they're one of the aforementioned huge corporations. I all the more want to support tiny publishers, like when I buy games from MangaGamer, a company plagued with piracy.

Guys, I already said pirating current games is a no-no, yes that hurts the publishers. However, what I and most have argued is for totally defunct properties and games. The overwhelming majority are not re-released in any form. Even when they are, there's a reason AtGames, GOG, Intellivision Lives, etc. existed. There was a market for fans who don't have the patience or preference for using emulation. Anyone who argues that AtGames is harmed by 2600 games being pirated are simply not realistic. Or GOG harmed by the people who download Maniac Mansion, and haphazardly played it on an Ouya, or a modded 360 or whatever. The vast majority of gamers prefer fully-refinished releases of nostalgia, because they will be plug and play. Yet again, you can't get the stuff, because they're not offered, and probably never will be. Further, come on, The Secret of Mana? Seriously, how many people who even have heard of the game let alone wished to play a remake without sampling the original via emulation? I'm not defending the legality, more the practicality. I know it's infringement, but don't give me a counter argument about lost royalties or harming re-releases, because that's simply not the case.

There are still torrential amounts of places to get full sets of roms.