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Thread: Sonic vs. Mario in the 16-bit era

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    Default Sonic vs. Mario in the 16-bit era

    It's hard to pick a favorite between Genesis and SNES, because they each had their strengths and weaknesses. One of Sega's biggest strengths, in my opinion, during the 16-bit era was their main mascot games. Sonic just crushed Mario in the 16-bit era (talking home consoles, not portables). On the Genesis alone, between 1991-1994, Sonic had 4 games - 1, 2, 3, and Sonic & Knuckles. Mario, meanwhile, had just one released during that time period on the SNES - Super Mario World. If you include the Sega CD, that's FIVE games against one. And these weren't mediocre games either. These games ranged from pretty good (1) to better than SMW (2 and CD).

    While SMW was a masterpiece, I just find some of the 16-bit Sonics more fun, and the rings system was a significant innovation over Mario. In SMW, if you get hit, you either die or lose strength, and power-ups are harder to come by than rings in Sonic. You get hit in Sonic, you still have the same strength and usually can go back and pick up some of your rings. It has a lot more room for error.

    I know that SMW 2: Yoshi's Island also came out for SNES but it was outside the "core" 16-bit generation. PlayStation and Saturn were already out and it was an attempt to compete with them just as much as the Genesis. Although Super Mario Bros. 3 came out after the Genesis and Turbo Grafx-16, and the Master System and 7800 were dying off by that point so SMB 3 was really a competitor to 16-bit systems.

    We all know where the competition went in the next generation, but I feel in the 16-bit era Sonic was just better than Mario.
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    Quantity doesnt override quality. if there had been a Super Mario World 2 (not Yoshi's Island), Super Mario World 3, Mario CD, and a Super Mario & Luigi during 1992-1994, and the quality was the same as SMW1, I dont think youd say that Sonic>Mario..

    not having a save system sucks. and if you miss the Chaos emerald you dont really have a chance to go back and get it unless you reset the game

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    Not having a save system might suck... but we're talking about games that take like, 30 minutes to an hour to beat if you have any clue what you're doing. I replayed the Sonics recently and was shocked how easy the special stages were, after remembering how tough they were when I was a kid.

    ......

    That said, in the battle of Sonic vs Mario, I say the correct answer is "Mega Man."

    To be honest for me it was never about the mascots. There was actually a time I outright hated Sonic but still loved my Genesis. These days, I'm just not a huge fan of either character.... I actually kind of think they both symbolize different ways franchises can go wrong, with Mario presenting the overly-safe route and Sonic being the milked-to-death almost comic-book-like "just made up so much crap it fell apart and now its desperately trying to cater to nostalgia" route.

    For me, SNES vs Genesis came down to what kind of things you wanted. When I was hugely into JRPGs, that was the major thing that made me turn towards the SNES... the Genesis had barely any that I was aware of in my teens, and even now that I know of many, they play a lot more like MS-DOS RPGs in a lot of cases (possibly because a lot of them are ports of MS-DOS games), and which style I prefer tends to depend on my mood.

    These days, I tend to keep my Sega permanently hooked up, but its largely because I have a Sega CD and the crate I keep unused consoles in... well, its just easier to keep the Genny constantly hooked up. This produces an odd situation tho where I am more likely to play it than anything else if I'm just bored, and also I have come to feel I like this certain aesthetic that Sega Genesis (and sometimes TG16) games have that I don't think I see much on the SNES.... games like El Viento, Chakan the Forever Man, or Valis III which are "dark" but not in the edgy grimdark way, more in a sort of surreal way. SNES games in my experience tend to have this more nostalgic feeling for me.

    Put another way, I sometimes associate games with seasons or weather, and there's a lot of "rainy/cloudy day" games on the Genesis while the SNES has a lot of "sunny spring/summer afternoon games."

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    Sonic is the 16bit generations Assassin's Creed. For the most part, a lot of the sections of the game will be on auto pilot and then some sections of the game the player actually has to put forth their own skill. I don't like the Sonic series and except for the very rare level, the games just suck. Being a mascot is the only reason Sonic is as well known as he is because it's certainly not because the games were good.

    As has already been said, quantity over quality. This is sadly something representative of the Sega Genesis itself. Huge lack of quality overall. There's some hit games here and there, but too much of the content on Sega Genesis is pretty mediocre.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeToTheNextLevel View Post
    If you include the Sega CD, that's FIVE games against one. And these weren't mediocre games either.
    If you include the 32X there's also Knuckles Chaotix, although that's not a main Sonic game it plays close to one. It's not a Sonic Spinball type of spinoff game where it plays completely differently.

    I'll also give credit to Super Mario All-Stars for the SNES as it includes The Lost Levels, so that's an extra game. I don't suppose Mario is Missing or Mario's Time Machine count.

    I personally prefer the Sonic games though I still never beat any of them. And Sonic 3 had a save feature, the earlier games had level select codes if you wanted to skip ahead.

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    I still have never played through Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic CD, but I like Super Mario World more than the first Sonic and Sonic 2. That said, I find all of them overrated. They're good, very solid games that are fun, but they didn't wow me or really stick with me. I actually like Sonic Spinball more than the first Sonic and Sonic 2, as horrified as some would be to hear that. I think nostalgia boosts these games for a lot of people, but I never played them until I was an adult, past the year 2000. For the 16-bit era, give me Donkey Kong Country, Kirby, Castlevania, and so on when it comes to platformers. As for Mario, I think Super Mario Bros. 3 is much better than Super Mario World, and I also like Super Mario 64 more too.

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    Sonic had 1 great game and 1 good game and the rest were mediocre to bad that generation. Sonic 2 and 3. Sonic CD sucks. Sonic 1 isn't very good either.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryudo View Post
    Sonic had 1 great game and 1 good game and the rest were mediocre to bad that generation. Sonic 2 and 3. Sonic CD sucks. Sonic 1 isn't very good either.


    yeah this is how i feel,
    I love sonic 2, it is a really great game

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    I wouldn't say that any of the Genesis era console Sonic games are mediocre, just not all were great. Mediocre would be the various knock off clones that followed for most of the generation, and the portable Game Gear games.

    I liked Sonic CD for what it was, it came out before Sonic 2 which most people seem to forget. It offers lots of variety with the multiple paths and versions of each level. To me it's still fun to play every now and then.

    I do like Sonic Spinball quite a bit. It's the only game I'm aware of that's based on the SatAM TV show. I'm still hoping to find the original release version which had different music, but who knows if I ever will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    Sonic is the 16bit generations Assassin's Creed. For the most part, a lot of the sections of the game will be on auto pilot and then some sections of the game the player actually has to put forth their own skill.
    Uhhhh....

    This might be true for the Dreamcast era on up, but for the Genesis era? Hell no.

    It's actually one of the disconnects I have with the Sonic franchise. Apparently at some point people misremembered the Genesis games as always being super-fast and while there are tricks like loop-de-loops, if you're constantly running you'll get hit or outright die (especially due to bugs). For decades I thought it was strange how Sonic was remembered for his speed when in the Genesis games you basically never really got to use it--you had to stop and platform too much. Unless you were a god-tier gamer who had the game mastered.

    Starting with the Dreamcast and with Sonic Advance and such, the series suddenly is about constant running, and that's why I get bored of that era--its all spectacle.

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    People misremember the good Sonic games if the majority of the series sucks. its the same with the Simpsons. once they came up on 10 straight years of unfunny episodes, people start to think the whole series sucks even though the first ten or eleven seasons had mostly good episodes

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    People misremember the good Sonic games if the majority of the series sucks. its the same with the Simpsons. once they came up on 10 straight years of unfunny episodes, people start to think the whole series sucks even though the first ten or eleven seasons had mostly good episodes
    In all honesty I find people have garbage memories for anything, good or not.

    Like recently I was talking about anime with my sister. We both used to be huge Ranma 1/2 fans. I still am, she's become one of those who hates everything, and she went on recently about how "every episode is about Ranma learning some new martial art.".... except this doesn't even happen until season 2, and even then its one of only like, five he learns in the entire series (she might've been referring to the formula of episodes involving him having to fight battles which involve some quirky new type of fighting style, but even those aren't exactly "every episode," though at least this IS recurring enough to be a recognizable stock plot the show falls back on).

    I also once met a guy who claimed every episode of He-Man was about Prince Adam losing his sword and being unable to transform. Off the top of my head I can only recall maybe three episodes in the entire show's run where this happens. Back in the days of the Jumptheshark.com website someone claimed that later on, every episode of Thundercats was about the Sword of Omens breaking. I don't recall there even being ONE episode where that happens--and certainly not one where Lynx-O fixes it (this person claimed that Lynx-O was a master blacksmith and always fixed everything, which again, I don't recall being true at all).

    But getting back to the Sonic thing, the thing about "Sonic was about speed" and "you could just hold right" is I've even seen FANS of the series say that, and hold it up like it was some sort of ideal. And I'm like "Ummm... you guys playing the same Sonic I am?" Just for example I watched SomeCallMeJohnny and he claimed Sonic Advance 1 and 2 (he didn't like the 3rd) were "the real Sonic 4" but like.... I don't see it. They're side-scrolling but that's it.

    And then there's hundreds of instances I know I've encountered where people describe a game in a way that doesn't make sense or which I know for a fact is wrong. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head...

    Altho, I had some "took me out of the story" moments while listening to some Creepypastas (mockeries thereof, rather): One involved someone finding a haunted copy of Mega Man 3, describing going to Snake Man's stage.... then to Wood Man's. Can you see the problem there?

    Another one involved a haunted copy of Morrowind, where the author described "having to resort to Dosbox to get the game working." Again, can you spot the problem?

    (I know some people are gonna mention the infamous Super Mario World story where someone claimed to have found a hidden ending where Luigi turns out to be the bad guy, but the author of that story admitted openly that the story was a trollpasta--I'm trying to stick to *legitimate* examples of bad memory or incompetence. For this reason I'm also not bringing up moral guardian B.S.).

    OH! I just remembered a really common example of "even fans can't remember this right"--now, speaking as someone who ISN'T a fan of Final Fantasy VII, it bothers me that a lot of people remember Cloud Strife as this whiny emo git. In fact I've seen him called "the model that Squall was built on" and other such things.

    Problem with that: Cloud isn't "emo." If anything he's an action movie hero, very much a get-out-and-do-it kinda guy. He's reserved with his emotions and doesn't want to burden people with his baggage, but that's nowhere near the same as Squall's "never expect anything and always be cynical" demeanor. And its weird to me that I--someone who wasn't that huge an FF7 fan--notices this. Apparently things like Advent Children (which I've never seen) wound up retconning Cloud to match the fanon.

    Aaaand this has officially become "people who can't remember jack about video games: the thread" hasn't it?

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    To be fair the parts in Sonic where youre not controlling him havent detracted from the experience for me at all. thats basically how pinball is. 90% of it is watching a ball move around without your control

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    Depending on the Pinball table/video game, you have the option of bumping the table itself.

    That said I find pinball has a lot more going on, its pure chaos. I felt like Sonic Adventure and later (especially the day stages in Unleashed) had the problem of just wanting to impress you with speed setpieces.

    Like, I love games where you go fast, its why I like games like Outrun 2006 and some other racing games... but its not like those games are JUST "hold down the pedal and watch the world go by," there's actual depth and gameplay. Sonic games like Sonic Unleashed expect you to be impressed essentially by a blur effect or by seeing the momentum carry Sonic far into the sky... things that, you know, aren't exactly unique to Sonic, and which in other games can happen under far more dynamic circumstances (in a racing game for example, jumping off a ramp both looks cool AND might have a gameplay benefit if you, say, find a shortcut).

    I say that, but part of my problem with Sonic Adventure is that the controls kinda sucked and the game was buggy and glitchy (which to be fair, even the Genesis games were so buggy the manuals resorted to trying to claim that the game locking up was a super-trap set up by Robotnik).
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    People liking or not liking a series, or having a difference of opinion in general, isn't a matter of bad memory, let alone "incompetence". It may be shocking, but some people have never liked the Sonic series. Some people have never liked The Simpsons. Some people only like a tiny fraction of the content of big, popular franchises, even if the mainstream opinion is that a greater percentage of it is good. And sometimes bad content does sour people on the good content. Not every hugely popular thing is loved to the same extent by every person on Earth.

    People are only human, and humans do sometimes forget things or misremember things (or they speak in generalizations that aren't meant to be taken dead literally), and if they're decent, they'll acknowledge their mistakes when they're pointed out. Judging them for making a mistake at all, as if we should all be flawless robots, is beyond petty. I have a lot more tolerance for honest mistakes than for super nit-picky "Actually..." sorts who come in all smug and insulting, rather than trying to be constructive and helpful. I also have a lot more tolerance for honest mistakes than people who can't distinguish between a fact and an opinion and try to invalidate opposing opinions as being "wrong". I mean, there's no way to prove objectively that Cloud is "emo" or not. It's just an opinion. There isn't even an official definition of what "emo" means. Merriam-Webster only defines it as a genre of music, not as a personality trait. Depending on how one views "emo" as a personality trait and how they interpret Cloud's actions, it's perfectly fair to personally assess him as emo. And it's perfectly fair to assess him as not emo. I repeat, it's an opinion.

    I also repeat my request that we not make a regular habit of using The Retrogaming Roundtable to discuss the drama of other websites and mock and shit-talk users of other sites who have no idea they're even being talked about here. Keep that kind of stuff to your own personal blogs or social media. We're here to talk about games, not who said what where.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    People liking or not liking a series, or having a difference of opinion in general, isn't a matter of bad memory, let alone "incompetence".
    Lemme check, did I actually say anyone was incompetent? Lemme find my one and only mention of it....

    Actual Line: I'm trying to stick to *legitimate* examples of bad memory or incompetence.

    The context was my mentioning a creepypasta that was an intentional parody of cliches, and thus NOT an example of bad memory or incompetence, and saying that if discussion expands I would like to stick to unintentional examples. The only thing I vaguely insulted was a pair of other gaming creepypastas with obvious gaffes... which, long story short, that's like pointing out that there's visual glitches in a Color Dreams game.

    So, umm, yeah.

    It may be shocking, but some people have never liked the Sonic series. Some people have never liked The Simpsons. Some people only like a tiny fraction of the content of big, popular franchises, even if the mainstream opinion is that a greater percentage of it is good. And sometimes bad content does sour people on the good content. Not every hugely popular thing is loved to the same extent by every person on Earth.
    When people say "Even the fans make that mistake," the underlying assumption is that it's UNDERSTANDIBLE that non-fans do as well. In other words, I was letting them off the hook.

    I also repeat my request that we not make a regular habit of using The Retrogaming Roundtable to discuss the drama of other websites and mock and shit-talk users of other sites who have no idea they're even being talked about here. Keep that kind of stuff to your own personal blogs or social media. We're here to talk about games, not who said what where.
    Sooo here's a funny thing:

    I heard you the two--and ONLY two--times I ever broke this rule, and I've been playing nice guy ever since.

    I see now how I'm being rewarded for my following the rules, by... being cast as this asshole forcing his opinions on people and getting an infraction for an offense you only IMAGINED I committed.

    Or are you talking about my one mention of jumptheshark.com? A website that STOPPED EXISTING THREE DECADES AGO? By that logic we should never talk about Nintendo Power articles either. Because people who read a magazine as a kid might get offended. If this really is the infraction, then the rule needs to be revised to only count against still-existing-and-active FORUMS, otherwise its stupidly restrictive.

    Or are you, perhaps, referring to my saying I disagreed with SomeCallMeJohnny on one minor point (without actually flaming him--he's actually one of my favorite reviewers?) But that can't be it, because the AVGN thread would be against the rules too in that case, and it clearly is not since its, you know, still up.

    Or are vague "I remember having this conversation somewhere" allusions the problem? Should I just never make reference to anything in the past (meaning basically its impossible to ever discuss anything)? But then, various threads in the Off-Topic section, or anyone who posts something like "I played Game X because I heard so-and-so about it" is breaking the rules... also I didn't actually flame anyone in any of those allusions, unless implying someone's memory is not 100% correct is itself flaming.

    My entire post was me talking to gbpxl and whoever happens to be listening the same way I would talk to a buddy on a couch, a friend on the phone, or even the same way I talked to the almighty in that one silly comic I drew. I'm not sure how that comes off as flaming or pushing my opinions on people, but then, people are amazingly defensive and thin-skinned these days.

    As it is right now, it looks to me like I was just having fun discussing games, the loose, jovial way I would with buddies on a couch (heck, even using the same tone I took with the Almighty in that silly comic I drew), when suddenly you came in and misread something (or perhaps you were already angry, perhaps even for an understandible reason, though that wouldn't excuse taking it out on an uninvolved third party) and suddenly, I'm hearing I broke a rule and got an infraction.

    That's what I get for being a good boy?

    It's just like School--there was this one time I got detention for saying "what the hay," which two girls (one of which was the daughter of a teacher) misheard as "what the hell." This is that all over again. And of course we all know the rule: the violent punks can rob or nearly kill you as much as they want but if you ever dare take a swing back, or even report them, you're bad for actually standing up for yourself, and god forbid you ever take a stand against the authorities in question. Internet is often the same way.

    I'm sure next I'll be hearing I got an additional strike for rebelling against this instead of taking it up the ass like a good little martyr.

    Thanks for demonstrating that it doesn't even matter if I follow your rules or not--or else demonstrating that the rule is so vague and nonsensical it isn't even worth following.

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    all Im gonna add is that Im always just impressed with your ability to compose massive walls of texts about the most nuanced of things that I never knew existed hehe

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    all Im gonna add is that Im always just impressed with your ability to compose massive walls of texts about the most nuanced of things that I never knew existed hehe
    And you didn't even have to sign up for a class, either ^__^

    Jisp Dante, bringing the richness of nuance to a forum near you!

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    I'm impressed that Aussie2b used "their", "they're" and "there" correctly within the same post. May be the first time anyone has ever done that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peeingas View Post
    I'm impressed that Aussie2b used "their", "they're" and "there" correctly within the same post. May be the first time anyone has ever done that.
    "Stawp beeing a grammer Natzi!!" - average person in 2020


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