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Thread: Opinion: "Custom"/"modded"/"hacked" devalues it

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    I run my classic system on a Sony WEGA CRT so I have no reason to mod them for newer TV's. But I totally understand why most people do since not a lot of people have CRT's hanging around. Some mods are a big improvement to the system. I got an LCD screen mod for my Sega Nomad and love it. Well worth getting done if you have one.

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    I would say that almost everyone who still plays old videongames has a CRT
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    For a legitimate "rare" console - I imagine mods would lessen the value. However, it would have to be rare. For just basic older consoles, I am 100% positive that my A/V modded Colecovision increases it's value. I'd say the same for other modded consoles that add video enhancements or quality of life features. I already own a Vectrex, but were I to buy another one - I'd pay extra for one that had the mod to eliminate the buzzing noise.

    With that said: I'd have ZERO interest in a Vectrex that had the buzzing mod, and was painted purple, with modified LED lights built into the sides. It simply depends on the mod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangar View Post
    For a legitimate "rare" console - I imagine mods would lessen the value. However, it would have to be rare. For just basic older consoles, I am 100% positive that my A/V modded Colecovision increases it's value. I'd say the same for other modded consoles that add video enhancements or quality of life features. I already own a Vectrex, but were I to buy another one - I'd pay extra for one that had the mod to eliminate the buzzing noise.

    With that said: I'd have ZERO interest in a Vectrex that had the buzzing mod, and was painted purple, with modified LED lights built into the sides. It simply depends on the mod.
    Even then, that'd be in the eyes of the buyer. If I had the liquid money, I'd rather have the Ben Heck repaired Nintendo Playstation rather than the original working one.

    It's going to get to the point where any piece of electronics, well ANY vintage piece, will wear out. I guess it all depends on the type of item and the circumstance. An original draft of say Shakespear's works would be priceless BUT would be brittle, so one would attempt to copy it so the copy could be shared and the original preserved for historical value and reference. Clothing from British royals are preserved which can be looked at for historical purposes but is impractical to be worn.

    Vidro games are in a weird place: they are physical artifacts yet require play to truly experience it. If it's not working, the purpose of it is lost-it's a hunk of plastic and dead silicon. That'd be like having a Model T car sitting in a room without its engine. Or a 80's era Firebird like my wife has. It looks great but its value is that of parts due to a cylinder not rising. If it ran cherry, it'd be a whole lot more valuable.

    It comes around to the owner or buyer-do you want something that works with original parts, even knowing that eventually those parts will fail? If yes, are you okay with having a lump of useless plastic and silicon?

    Art (like painting and sculptures) is for looking at and contemplation. Video games are for looking at, listening to, experiencingband then contemplation (if you are so inclined), IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    I would say that almost everyone who still plays old videongames has a CRT
    Not necessarily. I'd say almost everyone who collects old video games would have a CRT. If someone just plays old games, there's a good chance the games would just be emulated on a modern HDTV using a modded console or a PC. If someone doesn't have room for a CRT, even a small 13" CRT, why would they still have room for original hardware and games? Unless they just collect handhelds and a TV isn't needed at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by YoshiM View Post
    It comes around to the owner or buyer-do you want something that works with original parts, even knowing that eventually those parts will fail? If yes, are you okay with having a lump of useless plastic and silicon?
    Restoration, preservation, and conservation are all different from alterations and modifications. There will be differences in untouched museum pieces and practical working systems, but the type of repair or restoration work still matters. But like you said, I expect eventually that all these electronics will stop working and will no longer be playable. I hope I won't have to deal with that myself but if so I'll probably be done with the hobby. For all we know eventually broadcast systems will change so old consoles won't be compatible with modern TVs or displays at all, even with modding the output. It's already difficult with the most modern displays available being 8K, just imagine an NES being upscaled to that resolution. Lightgun games already aren't compatible with modern monitors.

    With restoring old radios the capacitors regularly need to be replaced. The original capacitors are usually hollowed out and the replacement is carefully fit inside so it looks like nothing was changed. Just to get it working you can just remove the old one completely, but it's not considered to be the right way to do this within the hobby. The way it's restored does matter if it holds any value.

    Even with vintage cars that are extremely valuable, if they need repainting they would need to be repainted in the original colour or at least in one of the original colours offered by the dealer at the time of original manufacturing. Just picking any colour you want would affect the value.

    Quote Originally Posted by YoshiM View Post
    Art (like painting and sculptures) is for looking at and contemplation. Video games are for looking at, listening to, experiencingband then contemplation (if you are so inclined), IMHO.
    When paintings need restoration or conservation work, the work has to be performed in very specific ways to not negatively affect the value of the painting. Any type of modern restorative work needs to be completely reversible, the painting should be able to be brought back to original condition and have all work removed if desired.

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    I remember watching a special about how they were restoring the Mona Lisa. pretty interesting

    my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.
    Just like with cars, there is a market for original/unrestored, restored to factory spec, AND upgraded/restomodded examples. A properly-done console mod will always increase the value for the right buyer, and there are plenty of those right buyers on eBay and in gaming groups.

    CRTs can be a big hassle for people that want a decent gaming experience. An unmodded NES looks and play like butt on a modern display, but good CRTs are inconvenient and difficult to find compared to even five years ago. They are heavy and ugly, and many of them have burn-in or worn tubes that cannot be restored. CRTs require a dedicated space for classic gaming since you can't or wouldn't want to connect anything modern to it. Modern TV stands aren't designed for CRTs, so even if you find one strong enough, any CRT over 20" diagonal will hang off of the back. You can't put unshielded speakers close to a CRT without causing purity issues. Unless you're using a pro monitor like a PVM/BVM, adjusting things like geometry and convergence is a big hassle. And what do you do when your CRT stops working? Nobody repairs them anymore. I'm in MA and the closest reputable CRT shop is 5 hours away in NY. I can't exactly throw it in a box and ship it out to be repaired.

    Get a modern TV set up the way you want it, and you'll likely have many trouble-free years of use. Have a CRT professionally calibrated and within 5 years you'll start seeing edge and corner geometry problems as the caps gradually drift out of spec.

    My 28" RGB CRT monitor is basically new and was just pulled out of its original packaging last year. The picture on this tube rivals the best NOS arcade monitors that I've used, and it accepts RGB SCART input. It'd be foolish to suffer with composite just because that is the best that Nintendo offered 30+ years ago, so I standardized all of my consoles with RGB output. Even if my CRT released its factory-installed smoke tomorrow, I still enjoy the benefits of those upgrades because I've simplified the process of integrating an OSSC and moving everything to my OLED. And if I eventually cheese out and just decide to go with emulation, I could easily sell and recoup my original investment on every one of these mods.
    Last edited by jperryss; 01-22-2021 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    I remember watching a special about how they were restoring the Mona Lisa. pretty interesting

    my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.
    It's all subjective and individual. I love playing NES, Atari 2600 and N64 on my 13" RCA from the 2000's. If my Commodore monitor worked better, I'd use that too (it whines, which drives my second eldest nuts). But if the day comes when those TVs die and I can't get a rrplacement, then it's either mod city, FPGA or finally emulation.

    I'll take authenticity in play when I can but I won't dump play for a particular system when I can't.

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    Eventually people will miss various defects because of nostalgia. Like the Vectrex buzz, I'm sure to some people that's what they want to hear in the background as that's what they remember it sounding like.

    Many old games were programmed to take advantage of the flaws with composite input, like dithering blending together colours and using similar effects for transparencies, shadows, or other techniques. The games will still play on other displays or with much improved video output, but you might end up missing some intended details. Much like looking at the original Mona Lisa and seeing the brush strokes and layers of paint, compared to a poster print of the Mona Lisa sold in the gift shop. Eventually there might not be a way around it as original hardware will all fail eventually. Like old LCD displays starting to separate between layers and leak. It'll all be gone eventually.

    Personally I will avoid getting an OLED TV at all costs. Those are highly susceptible to burn in and the whites turn yellow in very little time, my phone has an OLED display and while I watch internet videos on it for convenience the display quality is now pretty weak with plenty of burn in and inaccurate colours. It conserves battery life which is good for a phone but for a home monitor I'm not concerned about that level of energy reduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jperryss View Post
    Just like with cars, there is a market for original/unrestored, restored to factory spec, AND upgraded/restomodded examples. A properly-done console mod will always increase the value for the right buyer, and there are plenty of those right buyers on eBay and in gaming groups.

    CRTs can be a big hassle for people that want a decent gaming experience. An unmodded NES looks and play like butt on a modern display, but good CRTs are inconvenient and difficult to find compared to even five years ago. They are heavy and ugly, and many of them have burn-in or worn tubes that cannot be restored. CRTs require a dedicated space for classic gaming since you can't or wouldn't want to connect anything modern to it. Modern TV stands aren't designed for CRTs, so even if you find one strong enough, any CRT over 20" diagonal will hang off of the back. You can't put unshielded speakers close to a CRT without causing purity issues. Unless you're using a pro monitor like a PVM/BVM, adjusting things like geometry and convergence is a big hassle. And what do you do when your CRT stops working? Nobody repairs them anymore. I'm in MA and the closest reputable CRT shop is 5 hours away in NY. I can't exactly throw it in a box and ship it out to be repaired.

    Get a modern TV set up the way you want it, and you'll likely have many trouble-free years of use. Have a CRT professionally calibrated and within 5 years you'll start seeing edge and corner geometry problems as the caps gradually drift out of spec.

    My 28" RGB CRT monitor is basically new and was just pulled out of its original packaging last year. The picture on this tube rivals the best NOS arcade monitors that I've used, and it accepts RGB SCART input. It'd be foolish to suffer with composite just because that is the best that Nintendo offered 30+ years ago, so I standardized all of my consoles with RGB output. Even if my CRT released its factory-installed smoke tomorrow, I still enjoy the benefits of those upgrades because I've simplified the process of integrating an OSSC and moving everything to my OLED. And if I eventually cheese out and just decide to go with emulation, I could easily sell and recoup my original investment on every one of these mods.
    what kind of RGB CRT do you have? I just bought a Sony 2530. I'm picking it up next week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameguy View Post
    Eventually people will miss various defects because of nostalgia. Like the Vectrex buzz, I'm sure to some people that's what they want to hear in the background as that's what they remember it sounding like.

    Many old games were programmed to take advantage of the flaws with composite input, like dithering blending together colours and using similar effects for transparencies, shadows, or other techniques. The games will still play on other displays or with much improved video output, but you might end up missing some intended details. Much like looking at the original Mona Lisa and seeing the brush strokes and layers of paint, compared to a poster print of the Mona Lisa sold in the gift shop. Eventually there might not be a way around it as original hardware will all fail eventually. Like old LCD displays starting to separate between layers and leak. It'll all be gone eventually.

    Personally I will avoid getting an OLED TV at all costs. Those are highly susceptible to burn in and the whites turn yellow in very little time, my phone has an OLED display and while I watch internet videos on it for convenience the display quality is now pretty weak with plenty of burn in and inaccurate colours. It conserves battery life which is good for a phone but for a home monitor I'm not concerned about that level of energy reduction.
    As for composite, the waterfall dithering in Sonic 1 and 2 is the most well-known example. I've switched back and forth to composite to see the effect, so I know what I'm missing, but for me it's not worth the hit to visual quality when Genesis RGB looks so good.

    As for OLED, you can't really compare a phone with a TV. Even if you were using your TV exclusively for gaming, your phone has more static elements on the screen so of course it will be more susceptible to burn-in. A phone is also packed more tightly with components that run hot during use and that's probably not great for the display.
    If you're using your TV for a mix of TV/movies/gaming, and use the anti-burn features that are available in modern OLEDs (like pixel refresh, pixel shift, etc) the risk of burn-in is fairly low. We are approaching two years with our LG, 4-6 hours total use per day including occasional 4:3 content, and the picture still looks as vibrant and clear as the day we bought it with no visible burn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbpxl View Post
    what kind of RGB CRT do you have? I just bought a Sony 2530. I'm picking it up next week
    Nice find. The PVM-2530 is an older model (89-95ish I think) but one of only a couple of >20" pro models out there. It doesn't have an OSD so most picture adjustments will require opening the case and fiddling with pots. I've used the smaller 2030 and they've got a great image when setup properly.

    I am using a Seleco 28" wall monitor. This isn't my pic, but it looks exactly like this. Last year some guy landed on a lot of 10-20 of them in their original boxes that his company bought, but never used. I bought two from him, one worked perfectly and the other wouldn't power on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jperryss View Post
    Nice find. The PVM-2530 is an older model (89-95ish I think) but one of only a couple of >20" pro models out there. It doesn't have an OSD so most picture adjustments will require opening the case and fiddling with pots. I've used the smaller 2030 and they've got a great image when setup properly.

    I am using a Seleco 28" wall monitor. This isn't my pic, but it looks exactly like this. Last year some guy landed on a lot of 10-20 of them in their original boxes that his company bought, but never used. I bought two from him, one worked perfectly and the other wouldn't power on.
    People are saying the 2030 has better picture quality but I wanted a PVM where I can play split screen games and each player will actually have a decent sized screen to look at
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    I rather keep the console as is, with no modification.

    HOWEVER, if a mod acts like a repair and makes the condole work again, I'm all for it. For example, if I find an NES console that has a damaged main board, then I am ok with getting an reproduction mainboard, and replace all components there. That way, the console works again wiyh many of the original parts.
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