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    Default The power gap between the NES and Master System, and how it didn’t mean anything in the real world

    1986. The NES and Master System both hit American shores, or at least see a wide release. Out of the box, the Master System is more powerful. 1 megabit cartridges instead of 320 kilobit. A faster CPU, more colors on screen, and all that jazz. And technically speaking, Alex Kidd in Miracle World looked better than Super Mario Bros 1.

    I know NES carts were loaded with enhancement chips, but as far as the common consumer would know in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the NES was equal to or beating the Master System technically.

    Find me a Master System game that outperforms Super Mario 3 technically. Mario 3 looks closer to a typical Genesis game than a Master System game. What about Kirby’s Adventure? That thing came on a 6 megabit cart (the Master System topped out at 4 megabit IIRC) and looks like an early Genesis game. I don’t think the Master System has anything in its arsenal that can beat it.

    Is there anything that came out on Master System that can match Mario 3 and Kirby’s Adventure technically?
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    I would say no. Many of our favorite games on either system were not technically superior anyway. Part of the issue for SMS was that it wasn't sophisticated enough, so that when SEGA's arcade titles needed to be ported to the home, they often came out like piles of trash.
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    I don't hate the SMS but I get why it was less popular here. First with the hardware, the controllers were just bad on the first release, the cords came out of the side right where you want to hold the controller. The D-pad was pretty bad as well, terrible with games that needed quick responses. Plus the pause button was on the actual console instead of the controller, really one of the greatest breakthroughs the NES developed as every console afterwards copied that feature.

    Combine that with the marketing, the worst most bland box art possible.

    Then there's the games. Most SMS games just weren't that interesting or just played poorly. Keep in mind that many early games got released on those cards instead of cartridges to save on cost and were really basic to play. Jumping in games didn't feel as good compared to the Mario games on the NES. Later SMS games got better but by that point the NES got a better market share, the better games getting released on the SMS were just too rare to find. This is what kept the system from being as collectible for many years later while NES collecting started taking off, the common SMS games people could find were mostly just bad and anything decent was mostly rare or unavailable in this region. The exception was in Europe where the better games got released on the SMS and hardly any good NES games got released there.

    I still want to collect the SMS but it's really hard to find the good games unless I just break down and pay full price online, which I really don't want to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeToTheNextLevel View Post
    1986. The NES and Master System both hit American shores, or at least see a wide release. Out of the box, the Master System is more powerful. 1 megabit cartridges instead of 320 kilobit. A faster CPU, more colors on screen, and all that jazz. And technically speaking, Alex Kidd in Miracle World looked better than Super Mario Bros 1.

    I know NES carts were loaded with enhancement chips, but as far as the common consumer would know in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the NES was equal to or beating the Master System technically.

    Find me a Master System game that outperforms Super Mario 3 technically. Mario 3 looks closer to a typical Genesis game than a Master System game. What about Kirby’s Adventure? That thing came on a 6 megabit cart (the Master System topped out at 4 megabit IIRC) and looks like an early Genesis game. I don’t think the Master System has anything in its arsenal that can beat it.

    Is there anything that came out on Master System that can match Mario 3 and Kirby’s Adventure technically?
    Road Rash
    Shadow Dancer
    Jang Pung 3
    Street Fighter 2 and MK series
    Chuck Rock 2
    New Zealand Story
    Robocop vs Terminator
    R-Type
    Sagaia
    Fantasy Zone 2
    Power Strike 2
    Asterix and the Great Rescue
    Illusion series, Aladdin, Wonder Boy 3 and Alex Kidd in Shinobi World besides the lack of multidirectional scrolling
    Lemmings
    Cheese Cat-astrophe
    Alien 3
    Daffy Duck in Hollywood
    Battlemaniacs
    Desert Speedtrap
    Dynamite Headdy
    Cool Spot and Deep Duck Trouble besides the lower framerate
    etc.

    The list is long, and no SMB3 does not look like a 16-bit game. The lack of color and sprite sizes are obvious.
    But since the NES games used enhancement chips after 1985 or so, it becomes tricky to compare them. No idea why this wasn't done on SMS but I guess it was seen as not needed and/or too expensive.

    Anyway, what mattered was the lack of third party support, which was due to Nintendo's business practices. No Konami, Capcom, Tecmo, etc.
    Last edited by Alianger; 08-10-2021 at 08:40 AM.

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    I would say SMB3 could pass for an early (pre Sonic 1) Genesis game when they were still learning the hardware. Anyway, Alianger, that’s quite a list and I’d agree with much of it, though I’d still say there was nothing that came out stateside that could beat Kirbys Adventure technically. As far as the USA market is concerned, I would say 1 to 3 late release (1989-1991) Master System games could outperform SMB3 technically.

    That being said, the vast majority of the games you released were Europe and/or Brazil exclusives. In Europe, the Master System peaked in 1993 or something like that, I think they were still developing games until 1996 in Europe and 1998 in Brazil. In addition, the Master System had good third party support in those areas. These factors meant they milked every last bit of horsepower out of the system, also they wanted to make the games a viable option against the 16 bit systems which were readily available during the Master System’s peak years in those territories.
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    Well I agree to an extent as it's a large and varied game with a lot of secrets and neat little extras, there's more attention to detail and a larger scope than a lot of games even from later eras. But it clearly looks and sounds like the NES based on the aforementioned things, the little stripe with loading tiles near the screen edge when the screen scrolls, the 4-5 channel PSG+lo-fi samples sound, etc.
    Top tier NES and 8-bit gen though for sure. Kirby's Adventure also comes close to its level overall, has more animation and background detail, and that rotating tower level which was a cool effect. Off the top of my head I don't know a SMS game with that effect but considering the game Nebulus/Castellan was on NES and various 80s PCs I think it was doable on SMS too.

    Limiting it to US SMS releases that does shrink the list a fair bit, yeah, and you're right. It actually had the most releases in a year in 1993 which is kind of crazy! Of course most of those were pretty straightforward "demake" ports from the 16-bit consoles and few games were great.

    I'm northern european myself though I had mostly moved on to the MD by 1991 or so and so I discovered some of the games I mentioned later on. While it had good third party support here, we can't understate the effect of the lack of those companies mentioned, along with others like Hudson, Namco for the most part, Sunsoft, SNK, Square and Enix (though the last two were more relevant in JP at the time), and also the licenses these held at the time such as various Disney cartoons, TMNT, and some movies.

    The most prolific 80s-90s developers besides Sega and Nintendo were Konami, Capcom, Namco, Taito, Hudson, Compile, Data East, Tose, Falcom, Technos and Tecmo, looking at how many well regarded games they made back then.

    Edit: The US did get Sonic 1 SMS which I think beats those two, check out the jungle level for example.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQPvA0OvR24&t=16m10s
    Last edited by Alianger; 08-11-2021 at 11:48 AM.

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    Guys, the difference was marketing, pure and simple. Read up on it, Sega of America had like nobody in their advertising department. The games largely stunk, they were primitive and boring. The NES had Super Mario Bros. which alone was the most fun/popular game in 1986, with plenty more to follow. After a disastrous '86 holiday season, SEGA sold the rights to Tonka, who did even worse. They blocked localizing games, and refused to pay for EEPROMS on bigger carts. When SEGA took the license back, it was too late, Nintendo were kings. In fact, the SMS probably had its best sales after the release of the Genesis, which ported a lot of games to it, and was a cheap alternative.

    SMS later on had some really impressive technical games; however, they were rarely better than the NES games. For one, even technically superior games on SMS often had a blank background. SMS did not have Konami or Capcom producing games for them. Sega's first party games were decent, but anyone who played SMB series and then tried to play Alex Kidd games knew which were better.

    Lastly, on marketing. Okay, so go back in time with me thirty some odd years. By 1987-88, Nintendo had a fan club magazine, trading cards, and eventually some cartoons. By 1989 you had The Wizard. They'd one upped Atari on those routes. As a kid, pre-internet, you had to rely on what you could get your hands on. 3rd party mags like EGM hadn't even started yet. Nintendo was ubiquitous. You got early screenshots of games, you wanted them!! They would preview their big releases up the wazoo, making you desire them even more. It was consumerism 101, and Nintendo of America were the best at it. When big time arcade games came out from Japan, you'd play them for a few weeks and the next month's Nintendo Power had a surprise, an announcement (albeit usually a 9 months to a year early) of a port coming to the NES! You'd check every month to look for updates. Sega did none of this, not until Kalinske got there with Sonic and whatnot.

    But to specifically answer the OP's inquiry, no, the SMS really never got anything as sophisticated and well designed as SMB 3 or Kirby. They just got 16-bit down ports which were done pretty badly. A few looked pretty nice, and played okay, including the Sonic games, or Disney stuff, but they had truly terrific versions on the Genesis so there was no reason to buy them. Even some of the BAD NES games that we all grew up with were preferable to SMS games back then. They were licensed from massive hits like Karate Kid, Back to the Future, Batman, Double Dare, Dick Tracy, TMNT, not to mention NES had all the Marvel/DC stuff. As a kid, if you were a fan of this stuff, you wanted to have the games. Even if they stunk, it was similar to collecting trading cards or the action figures.
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    That was also a factor but not the only one as you also admit, and far from the most important in my opinion since the quality of the software ultimately decides if the system will succeed in the long run even if people might get burned once or even several times because of marketing.

    Regarding the games I disagree and prefer various SMS equivalents to the earlier so-called NES classics but that's another discussion. The NES just has many more good games thanks to, again, better third party support and those devs not being allowed to make games for other consoles. They also had to limit their yearly published output for the NES itself (see Ultra Games).

    The question was about technical achievement so that's what I based my answer on, not showing games that are better than SMB3. Kirby's Adventure I didn't find nearly as good due to some control and slowdown issues, and the level design just being a bit bland to me overall. Mario made better use of its power ups and balanced them better.

    Regarding blank backgrounds, while they perhaps tended to be relatively lacking in detail and/or animation (IIRC thanks to no hardware support for tile mirroring (?) and I guess the lack of enhancement chips) that's pretty hyperbolic. This thread over at sega-16 shows off various detailed backgrounds which also feature parallax scrolling. There's about 65 games in there and maybe half are good:
    https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...crolling/page3

    "It uses codemasters mapper. Codemasters used addicional resources from new 315-5246 VDP. Therefore, codemasters games only will run in european SMS2 or later. Maybe, it work with Everdrive."
    Oh, apparently there was something akin to the NES enhancement chips in some games. The quote is from that thread.
    Last edited by Alianger; 08-11-2021 at 04:05 PM.

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    Honest question: did anything contemporary at the time claim that the SMS was more powerful?

    I never saw any press or advertising from Sega/Tonka that said it did. Sure, carts were labeled as "the mega cartridge" or "two-mega cartridge" but those were just buzzwords with no meaning to people. Might as well say "low calorie" or "high energy". I never really heard even the press mention megabit size until Strider came along.

    Although I didn't read PC mags, console mags like GamePro and EGM never touted the SMS as more powerful than the NES. Screenshots might have looked a bit more colorful but even that wasn't capitalized on as a system selling point. As far as I can recall, nobody really knew or cared about exact system specs until the next generation of systems came out and suddenly thrust a whole new terminology and hardware accentuation on customers.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lGpee6mEq0

    That first ad immediately goes into tech stuff though I'm not sure how accurate it is. As a kid I didn't know any of that but the visual difference was obvious.
    I also didn't get into arguments over which system was better with friends, we just played and enjoyed the games mostly. Innocent times.

    03:00 "The realistic sound you've been craving"
    Well there you have it, SMS has better sound too.
    Last edited by Alianger; 08-13-2021 at 06:27 AM.

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    The one thing SMS definitely does not have is better sound.

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    Seeing those ads was a bit weird as I've never seen them before. It is true that the SMS had 3D games which would technically be better graphically than any NES games, even the few NES games that had 3D didn't use the same type of 3D.

    The SMS really is a good example of why we can go back to or outright prefer classic games over whatever current games are out on the latest hardware available. Gameplay is far more important than pure technical specifications.

    That said I still prefer SMS games to the N64 or Dreamcast.

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    I think graphically and game play-wise, SMS Castle of Illusion (which is quite different from the Genesis) compares well with the best of NES platformers. It's really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    Well I don't see the point of labeling a game "technically superior" or impressive, whatever, if it wreaks.
    I have a great example for this: Double Dragon. SMS DD looks amazing... in screen shots. But when you play it's a flickering poorly controlling mess. Despite being single player, NES Double Dragon actually plays better, and looks fine given the era in which it was released.
    Last edited by Gentlegamer; 08-15-2021 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    Well you're asking a marketing question, because that's all something like that is. The whole "power" angle was something that SEGA began to push big time with the Genesis.
    I totally get that, but I was more directing that question in response to the original topic subject line. Nobody, or at least nobody I ever spoke with at the time, was even aware of console tech specs. The "power gap" between the SMS and NES didn't mean anything in the real world to the average customer because they were blissfully unaware of it even existing. Games that were critically panned were just chalked up to being dud games, not good games held back by hardware limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeToTheNextLevel View Post
    1986. The NES and Master System both hit American shores, or at least see a wide release. Out of the box, the Master System is more powerful. 1 megabit cartridges instead of 320 kilobit. A faster CPU, more colors on screen, and all that jazz. And technically speaking, Alex Kidd in Miracle World looked better than Super Mario Bros 1.

    I know NES carts were loaded with enhancement chips, but as far as the common consumer would know in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the NES was equal to or beating the Master System technically.

    Find me a Master System game that outperforms Super Mario 3 technically. Mario 3 looks closer to a typical Genesis game than a Master System game. What about Kirby’s Adventure? That thing came on a 6 megabit cart (the Master System topped out at 4 megabit IIRC) and looks like an early Genesis game. I don’t think the Master System has anything in its arsenal that can beat it.

    Is there anything that came out on Master System that can match Mario 3 and Kirby’s Adventure technically?
    There's no such thing as "out of the box". If you mean lowest valid configuration.. then how doe that have any meaning? The only "power" difference between the SMS and NES is the color; 4bit cells vs 2bits cells. That's it. Nothing else on the SMS is "superior", including master palette, speed, cpu, memory, tilemap size, hsync effect, total number of tiles/sprite cells, special effects the NES can do that the SMS can't. Mappers existed waaayyy before both the NES and SMS, and much after. It's not something Nintendo invented haha. The large part of the video system is extended to the cartridge on the NES. That's how the system was designed (video 'arcade-ish' in design). No other system home system other than the Neo Geo does something like this. Matter of fact, it's pretty odd that the SNES shares none of the design philosophy. The NES could change out vram about 100x faster than any SNES or Genesis vDMA (i.e. blast processing). The NES 'out of the box' audio hardware is also vastly superior to SMS. 'But the SMS in Japan has an FM add on..' so does the FC.

    But that one advantage the SMS does have, 4bit cells vs 2bit, is HUGE when put into practice. Outside of audio, that's the only area that really matters for the most part. And that's what kills it for me - the audio. It's not just inferior.. it's limitations make it very 'same-y' and not in a good way. I hated it on the Game Gear. I just found almost all the music grating on the ears. I'll take inferior graphics, but better audio over the opposite in this case. To this day, I'm still listening to NES tracks.

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    The palette is larger on SMS, 64 vs 56 though there are are also a couple of redundant gray tones in the NES one. The NES one has a better grayscale and one or two more brownish tones but is worse at most other shades. Though the sometimes lower saturation shades on NES is preferable to some or for certain games/scenes.

    Some NES to SMS mockups:
    https://imgur.com/a/2B6NClh
    Last edited by Alianger; 10-03-2021 at 05:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alianger View Post
    The palette is larger on SMS, 64 vs 56 though there are are also a couple of redundant gray tones in the NES one. The NES one has a better grayscale and one or two more brownish tones but is worse at most other shades. Though the sometimes lower saturation shades on NES is preferable to some or for certain games/scenes.

    Some NES to SMS mockups:
    https://imgur.com/a/2B6NClh
    NES has emphasis bits. You can bias the palette to your choice.

    Yeah the over-saturation of straight 3bit RGB can make it worse in some cases. Amiga games purposely use de-contrasted and de-saturateded color choices in games - it makes color re-use via paired shades less jarring. Though I think the saturation issue is more of an issue with 9bit RGB than 3bit RGB, but 3bit RGB does have some waste in the palette. It's the whole reason why PC-Engine isn't actually 9bit RGB color - it's a specialized/custom YUV defined color palette of those 9bit RGB values.

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    Huh. That seems very limited in use and was barely used though. I'd pick 15 color sprites over that any day.

    Why would it be more of a problem with 9-bit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alianger View Post
    Huh. That seems very limited in use and was barely used though. I'd pick 15 color sprites over that any day.
    Same.

    But I mean it's better than just the ~54 colors. I mean technically it's like 400+ colors haha. But it's nice as a mid screen transparency effect too. Apparently you can also turn off color and run as B&W output. One game does this for a transparency effect.

    Also, wasn't mentioned but someone developed a mapper for the NES that swaps out the palette association for BG tiles, so you have 3+1 colors every 8x1 pixel rows, rather than 8x8 or 16x16. There's a game in development for it right now.

    Why would it be more of a problem with 9-bit?
    Because it's right on that weird threshold with 512 entries where there's more wasted/useless color ratio to usable stuff - compared to like 1024, or 2048, etc. There's a lot of wasted shades in the bright yellows, *any* range of orange, bright pinks and greens that you would never use (or need to use) out side of digitizing (an image into 256 colors).. and even then. Once you go the next step up 1024 or 2048, the useless colors don't really matter much anymore. You have a good selection of usable colors for general pixel art. The PCE's less saturated and specific 15bit YUV table gives you a few more colors choices for shading. I.e. the now famous "invisible" colors drama (which are normally useless in straight RGB haha).
    Last edited by turboxray; 10-06-2021 at 01:40 AM.

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