How did online auction sites affect collecting?

[lendelin]

Browsing ebay for some more Dreamcast games tonight, and getting some real nice games for $20 from bestbuy.com, I asked myself again how the Internet actually influenced collecting.

I discovered ebay more recently, around a year ago, and used it to get NES games I missed out back then. I was amazed and glad that I could get a Willow, and Rygar complete and mint for a couple of bucks, and regard ebay as a blessing....but then, I'm not a systematic collector and looked only for specific games.

My experience with ebay is that it tends to inflate prices for games in demand, but it tends to deflate prices for very nice games which are not sought after; if you're patient and set your limits, ebay can be fantastic; furthermore, it's very convenient, and the "hunting games" experience is also there like in the real wild.

I'm not a collector, though, and I'd like to know how online auction sites influnced the prices of older games. Did they make collecting easier or more difficult in the last 5 years? are they a blessing or a curse?

(PS: in case I warmed up a lukewarm topic or an already discussed old topic, sorry, and just ignore. )

[Ed Oscuro]

As William Gibson reminded me, the internet has the effect of "rationalizing" prices. While garage sales and so on give the best prices, the only surefire way to get what you want is now online, and since everybody can see what things are selling for, prices tend to climb. Very rarely does exposure to the internet bring a game's price down, though it might have that effect on a few individuals' asking price for whatever item. Your best bet is likely to find an internet forum where a couple people hang out and have some of their games for sale (say they want another system) but those are somewhat rare, and they're likely to have something nobody visiting that forum is looking for on sale, 'cuz they want more games for system X.

I would have absolutely nothing older than my Nintendo 64 without the Internet, though. With it, I've been able to find stuff that's considerably hard to find.

[JackDark]

I'd say the good side of buying games through an auction house is that you can find extremely rare and out of print titles very cheap (like Bermuda Syndrome, or Gunman Chronicles, etc.). Which is not only positive considering the financial savings, but also in the fact that you can find something instantly online that you'd never find scrounging bargain bins at Electronic Boutique.

The negative side however, is that it has created an elistist persona concerning some games (Rondo of Blood, Snatcher, Metal Gear 2 MSX Version, etc.) and has caused their relative values to reach ridiculous heights. Whereas at one time you might of been able to buy a used copy of Radiant Silvergun from an actual game shop for $30.00, these days due to eBay you couldn't buy the damn manual for that. The little collector gets crushed by uber rich dorks willing to pay fifty times what a game is actually worth. Developers and producers realize this as well... Policenauts for example might of been ported to the PS1, but Konami realizes doing so would reduce the original's networth in an auction. Which is a pride thing, and evil. So instead of getting Rondo Of Blood, we get Castlevania Chronicles ported. I'm surprised it wasn't Kid Dracula. Anyway...

I'd say overall online auction houses have vastly improved the ability to collect rare and out-of-print games at great prices. Unless of course, anybody else wants the same game you do. >}

[Ed Oscuro]

The little collector gets crushed by uber rich dorks willing to pay fifty times what a game is actually worth.

Actually, collectors are usually the uber-rich dorks...I understand how lots of internet folks would like to get ahold of these games nowadays, and it's also natural that this popularity drives the price up. And to think that the sealed Rondo of Blood foolery has subsided somewhat; I remember when they were selling on eBay for $350 and up a piece. Hah...learn how to wait. I got my sealed copy for much less than that, and I picked up a complete Mega Drive Zero Wing late last year for a joke.

Oh, and I'd like to say that you're rather cynical -- and wrong -- about the reasoning behind the lack of a release for Policenauts, and the deal with Akumajo Dracula x68000 getting a release in Chronicles. Iga has to deal with his bosses telling him what he can and can't work on; and AdraX68K's a great game. Rondo would've been great to remake, but would've been considerably more work than the relatively straightforward dual-1.44MB floppy x68000 title was.

[christianscott27]

well speaking as retrogamer, that is somebody collects the games collectively known as "that old shit?" ebay has really put its thumb on my meat scale. the demand for SNES and beyond games has always been there so all ebay did was sort the price levels out, but prior to ebay you really, seriously, could not give away an odyssey2. atari carts gathered dust in thrifts stores for months before being sold, simple story the picking was much easier. almost no one would overcharge for atari games, most sellers were just so tickled that anybody wanted the junk in the first place. back then my only competition was other gen x'ers on a nostalgia trip, now i face the army of the lving dead, the professional ebay goons. i see these orcas moving thru the thrifts throwing anything, clothes, books, games etc into their cart to be hawked on bay. good friends buy $30 game bundles in the hopes of making a $20 profit, its sad man. sure it helped me fill holes in my tabletop collection but i could have done the same trading all the games i would have found without ebayers picking the tree bare.

[vincewy]

All of the above said is true, unless if you're Dreamcast collector, eBay is awesome, I tried to get a few games like Super Runabout and Aerowings 2 locally, they were asking full retail price, at one point of time, a few vendors were trying to get rid of those on eBay for only a few bucks, bingo, a big saving for me.

Needless to say, demand and rarity all vary, right now DC games are at the point where vendors are trying to get rid of them (some new games have ried up), eventually certain titles will go up in value. This has happened to PC-Engine games in Japan at one point where stores had to throw games away (ecommerce wasn't there at the time), hurts just to think aboput it.

[YoshiM]

It's a double edged sword. It's great that I'm able to go to one place and probably find stuff I'd never ever find locally. It's great I could get a lot bundle for less than what game stores would sell them. It's great that I can sell something I wasn't able to locally.

However, the "get more on eBay" mentality is out as Internet access is more prevalent amongst the people. Game stores I've been to in Green Bay price by eBay. Pawn shops price by eBay. Hell even a Salvation Army priced their Atari carts at $3 a pop because "that's the going price online" while a SA store not 10 minutes away in another city sold them for $.25 a piece. Teens apply to work at Goodwill stores so they can get a crack at the games NOT to collect, but to sell on eBay (this was proven by a worker who went on break and scoured the tape/cd table for the Odyssey 2 games I picked up and in a round-about way confessed that she sold them on the 'bay). But I must confess I do the same sometimes if I know a particular title will fetch a good amoutn of be good trade bait. But then again, don't we all :P ?

While it's people's perogatives to sell the stuff on eBay or at garage sales at Bay prices, the sick thing is these people probably would have just given them up to SA or Goodwill without a second thought. There was a time not too long ago where I could pick up some sweet treasures on a regular basis. Now that these items suddenly have cash-money value people are scrambling to their attics or the stores to quick sell this stuff for cashcashCASH and maybe rib the buyer with a high shipping rate too.

So to me, yeah it's both.

[Zaxxon]

I used to think Ebay was stupid when it first started and I saw the prices on common stuff, 2600's etc. but there are so many people using it now that prices have leveled off and I think Ebay is great as a collector. You may very well pay a lot more for an item but I would rather pay more to get the item I want than spend weeks or months going to hundreds of crappy garage sales and flea markets, usually finding nothing good. You spend way more in time and gas the old way.

[sisko]

I always looked at the internet as a positive influence on collecting.

It is typically very hard to find any brick and mortar stores that will deal with anything other than the big 3.5 (sega, sony, nintendo, and now microsoft). So finding games for the 2600 much less an odyssey or jaguar is pretty much hopeless.

On an international note, never has it been easier to score import games. The internet made the video game market a world wide one, and thats the aspect that I am most pleased about.

One the downside, most games you purchase online will usually be sold for a premium. But then again, if you pay the money, it can't be too much, now can it?

[JackDark]

To believe that the difference between a bonified collector and an "uber rich dork" is a willingness to pay 10 times what a game is actually worth (rarity or not) is -wrong-.

It may be utopian of me to believe so; yet still I believe anyone should be allowed to buy Rondo Of Blood or Alien Soldier. Not just the rich who have incredible disposable income. You see, the "little poor guy" is a collector too. And because of "uber rich dorks" he is forced to pirate an ISO of Rondo instead of actually being able to buy it. Though he could of before eBay's inception. You see, as stated above, every pawn shop, used game store, and bargain bin now prices their merchandise off of eBay's auctions. Whether this is eBay's fault or not is subject to much debate. But if anyone believes that it's right, then I think they suffer from severe non compos mentis.

Chronicles may have been easier to port, but isn't Rondo Of Blood much more in demand? I refuse to believe that Chronicles is selling better than Rondo or Policenauts or even Snatcher would have as a port.

I for one am not only cynical of the matter,
I am supercilious.

Cest la vie, mon ami.

[zmeston]

You see, the "little poor guy" is a collector too. And because of "uber rich dorks" he is forced to pirate an ISO of Rondo instead of actually being able to buy it.

Damn those uber-rich dorks for paying what the market is willing to bear, and forcing you into breaking the law!

There's no denying that the gulf between rich and poor America has grown frighteningly, dangerously wide, but illustrating that gulf with eBay prices on low-supply/high-demand videogames is beyond absurd. I pity the working-class Americans who work 80-hour weeks and still struggle to pay the rent and feed their children -- not spoiled brats who can't get Rondo of Blood for thirty bucks.

Also, if you hadn't already noticed, videogames aren't exactly a low-budget hobby to begin with (although the CD and DVD mediums have certainly helped in that regard).

-- Z.

[zmeston]

Developers and producers realize this as well... Policenauts for example might of been ported to the PS1, but Konami realizes doing so would reduce the original's networth in an auction. Which is a pride thing, and evil. So instead of getting Rondo Of Blood, we get Castlevania Chronicles ported. I'm surprised it wasn't Kid Dracula. Anyway..

This is an incredibly ignorant and entirely inaccurate statement. What in God's name do you base your crackpot theory upon? Do you think developers and publishers make money from eBay auctions? Do you think Final Fantasy Tactics was reprinted as a Greatest Hits title because Square wanted to undercut the bastards auctioning it for $75 on eBay, or because -- duh -- the company belatedly recognized the demand, and decided to cash in on it?

PS1 Policenauts didn't receive a U.S> localization for a variety of political and financial reasons -- none of them being your fictional "pride."

-- Z.

[Goodwill Hunter]

If it's "cynical" to believe that the difference between a bonified collector and an "uber rich dork" is a willingness to pay 10 times what a game is actually worth (rarity or not), than yes I'm cynical.

You're not cynical, you're just wrong. If you're talking money, the actual worth of something isn't what it was before Ebay, or what it's listed at in a guide, or what you want it to be, or even what it sold for yesterday on Ebay. It's what someone is willing to pay the seller for it, at the time and place the seller is selling it.

It may not seem "fair" or "right", but if someone is willing to pony up 10 times the cash that the last one sold for...that one is now worth 10 times as much. But come tomorrow, a warehouse of those things may be unearthed, and it may drop to 1/100 of its current worth. And yet, at that 1/100 price, it's worth, in money and market terms, is just as valid as the previous 2 sales.

You may not like it, but ever since people have traded houses for tulips bulbs, 26 bucks of beads for an island, and hundreds for a crappy game based on a dog food commercial, its been true. Someone may have been willing to give the Indians more than $26 for Manhattan, but they weren't around where and when the Indians were selling...therefore its worth at that point and time was $20+ dollars of flashy neckwear.

All Ebay has done is given today's Indians a much wider audience when they choose to sell something.

"There's heapum' strong medicine in that thing you call Radiant Silvergun, paleface!"

Rich

[JackDark]

So I'm a cynical spoiled brat with crackpot theories?

Ha! I love it.

Animadvertation gets you everywhere.

I could go into a lengthy diatribe explaining my "pride" theory, using numerous web links and dropping esoteric names of people in the biz, quoting industry mongols and Japanese game designers... but all it will win me is ad hominem biased apologia. Therefore my "theories" will have to remain untenable, as I have not the patience for personal attacks.

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but pixels will never hurt me. :P

Regardless of whoever is right, we all have one thing in common here, we are vehemently in love with electronic gaming. And despite our differentiating opinions, we can coalesce because of it.

But you're still wrong.

P.S. Zmeston, I was talking about Konami, not Square. Square knowing what to re-release has absolutely nothing to do with Konami's disregard. Let us be not asinine.

[zmeston]

I could go into a lengthy diatribe explaining my "pride" theory, using numerous web links and dropping esoteric names of people in the biz, quoting industry mongols and Japanese game designers... but all it will win me is ad hominem biased apologia. Therefore my "theories" will have to remain untenable, as I have not the patience for personal attacks.

Your thesaurus-abusing posts remind me of a favorite passage from Stephen King's "On Writing":

"One of the really bad things you can do to your writing is to dress up the vocabulary, looking for long words because you're maybe a little bit ashamed of your short ones. This is like dressing up a household pet in evening clothes. The pet is embarrassed and the person who committed this act of pre-meditated cuteness should be even more embarrassed."

You're unwilling to back up your nonsensical theory because, of course, you can't. Whereas I worked for a company that attempted to pick up Policenauts for a U.S. release, and I directly observed the negotiations. I don't have theories -- I know what went down. Policenauts not coming to the U.S. had nothing to do with "pride," and everything to do with behind-the-scenes foolishness.

-- Z.

[lendelin]

Interesting posts. More Qs:

1. Before ebay and the Internet, was it easier to find more and/or cheaper games at thrifts and flea markets? Do even thrift stores have ebay in mind when they price games? Yoshi wrote that there are more and more non-collectors who buy games/accessories for the only reason to sell on ebay, and that's my impression too. They see a Mark of Kri at best buy for ten bucks, and shwups - it's gone becasue they buy all ten of them. Did the newly emerged professional ebay seller class make thrifts more and more obsolete?

2. Do you have the impression that more people collect due to the convenience of ebay?

3. There are collectors who are after sealed games - does ebay inflate prices for those games?

4. I think that ebay is basically ONE BIG garage sale when it comes to selling games/hardware. A VERY big garage sale. You have more sellers, but you also have more potential buyers. This alone would suggest that basically nothing changed compared to a couple of local garage sales. However, the newly introduced element is BIDDING. It's one big garage sale turned into an auction house. Did this drive the prices of sought after games into the nutty levels of a MMX3? Logically I'd say it must be disadvantegous for the buyers. The likelihood to find real bargains (games you get for a much cheaper price than it's commonly worth) should be reduced.

[JackDark]

Your thesaurus-abusing posts remind me of a favorite passage from Stephen King's "On Writing":

Does the idea of one having an nonpareil unassisted vocabulary seem so farfetched? Alas, let me keep my posts in layman terminology:

Firstly, I could care less for King's quote, as I have basically zero respect for him as an author. IMHFO the only good books he's ever written (mainly "The Talisman") where co-authored. Of course he denounces using advanced diction, as the man writes pop fiction. His accusation sounds more like an excuse to me; writing in commontone allowed him to produce works much faster than if he took the time to choose more archaic and descriptive wording. However, I am more a fan of literature myself, so I am used to "big words" and I prefer to incorporate them in my own writings... no matter how trivial. You should try reading some Aldous Huxley, Umberto Eco, or even Herman Hesse sometime my friend. Perhaps then you'll begin to dress up your little doggy too, and not accuse someone else of stealing their doggy's costumes.

You're unwilling to back up your nonsensical theory because, of course, you can't.

Ask yourself this:

If person A cannot afford to play game B due to person CDEFGHI...etc... keeping it's price out of person A's financial grasp, should person A never be allowed to play game B at all? Or is it better for them to pirate game B so that they can experience it, regardless of deserving it monetarily. As a game designer/producer would not you want as many people as possible to enjoy the fruits of your labor post-commerce?

If company Z owns the rights to game B and realizes that persons CDEFGHI...etc... have been paying an extraordinary amount of money for game B, would they not think it disrespectful of persons CDEFGHI...etc... to re-release game B mass marketed to allow person A to buy it? Would not persons CDEFGHI...etc... be not a tad spiteful? In effect the re-release would scorn those whom are the "true collectors".

I realize that that is only a matter of opinion, and your opinion differs.

Whereas I worked for a company that attempted to pick up Policenauts for a U.S. release.

What company did you work for? The only company I've ever heard gave it a shot was Working Designs.

[lendelin]

Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, just with the two battling comrades:
Jackdark:

Firstly, I could care less for King's quote, as I have basically zero respect for him as an author. IMHFO the only good books he's ever written (mainly "The Talisman") where co-authored. Of course he denounces using advanced diction, as the man writes pop fiction. His accusation sounds more like an excuse to me; writing in commontone allowed him to produce works much faster than if he took the time to choose more archaic and descriptive wording. However, I am more a fan of literature myself, so I am used to "big words" and I prefer to incorporate them in my own writings... no matter how trivial. You should try reading some Aldous Huxley, Umberto Eco, or even Herman Hesse sometime my friend.

I HAVE to say this .... King is a great author with literature qualities, and not only The talisman was great with Peter Straub, but also Pet Semetary which contains a lot of intelligent thoughts about death, and Misery...and his early short stories are a fest and still my favorites. Character development, descriptions of persons and landscapes have so called "high literature" quality for sure....and he manages to do what also horror writers like Edgar A. Poe managed...to describe deatiled realistic situations to make us believe that the unlikely might be true; I know Huxley, Eco, and Hesse, and Stephen King is much better than Umberto for sure. About Hesse...I don't know. I come very close from the area where he was born, know his nephew, and had to read him (I have an MA in German Literature) He might be more "pop fiction" than Stephen King. I'd be very careful with those lables, it wouldn't be the first time that an author who was underestimated mkes a comeback and is celebrated as a genius...one hundred years later. and the one celebrated during his lifetime will be forgotten.

About the topic: There is no reason why publisihers/developers would take ebay into account...unless they make secretly profit on ebay and/or big profits with ebay sellers. Demand for a specific game on ebay as an indicator for prospective sales doesn't make sense either since the data would be biased...as a first impression maybe, but not more. I'm sure other considerations play a much bigger role, if not only the only role.

[zmeston]

You should try reading some Aldous Huxley, Umberto Eco, or even Herman Hesse sometime my friend. Perhaps then you'll begin to dress up your little doggy too, and not accuse someone else of stealing their doggy's costumes.

You've misinterpreted the quote. King doesn't denounce "advanced diction;" he denounces people like you, who use it unnecessarily.

I have read all of the authors you mention and hundreds more, from Toynbee, Braudel, and von Clausewitz to Koontz, Rowling, and Clancy. What's your point? My point was that your ridiculously dense prose makes your posts even more painful to slog through.

If person A cannot afford to play game B due to person CDEFGHI...etc... keeping it's price out of person A's financial grasp, should person A never be allowed to play game B at all? Or is it better for them to pirate game B so that they can experience it, regardless of deserving it monetarily. As a game designer/producer would not you want as many people as possible to enjoy the fruits of your labor post-commerce?

Person A should save his pennies and dollars until he can afford Game B, like that cool kid who mows lawns all summer and bids wisely at the Classic Gaming Expo auction, rather than spite those with more money. There are a lot of things I wish I had, and can't afford, but I don't assume that I have the right to steal them because I can't afford them and other people can.

During my stint as a game localizer, I expected to be paid for my labors, not to have my work stolen by narcissistic punks. Or haven't you heard 20 years' worth of pleas from the game designers and producers whose motivations you erroneously claim to understand?

If company Z owns the rights to game B and realizes that persons CDEFGHI...etc... have been paying an extraordinary amount of money for game B, would they not think it disrespectful of persons CDEFGHI...etc... to re-release game B mass marketed to allow person A to buy it? Would not persons CDEFGHI...etc... be not a tad spiteful? In effect the re-release would scorn those whom are the "true collectors".

You have a truly bizarre and entirely inaccurate view of how a videogame company operates. I assure you that Company Z doesn't give two shits about collectors, and doesn't worry about "scorning" them. Company Z cares first and foremost about making money, and produces as many copies of a game as it thinks it can sell through. Konami didn't "disrepect" collectors, nor give two shits about the people who paid $75 on eBay, when it cranked out a second run of AirForce Delta Storm for the Xbox; it cashed in on a higher-than-expected demand. Same with Suikoden III. Same with Final Fantasy Tactics. Same with many, many games that have been reprinted in the CD/DVD era.

I realize that that is only a matter of opinion, and your opinion differs.

But my opinions are based upon extensive knowledge of the facts and figures and harsh realities of the videogame business, whereas yours are pulled out of your ass.

What company did you work for? The only company I've ever heard gave it a shot was Working Designs.

WD was one of several companies that attempted to pick up Policenauts, and like the others, was rebuffed by Konami's US management, which didn't want to be second-guessed. Also, if the game ended up a hit, the US suits didn't want to look like assholes for passing on it in the first place. There's more to it than that, of course, but the other factors are boring and secondary.

After the experience with Policenauts, WD started negotiating directly with Konami Japan, which is how it eventually acquired Goemon -- which Konami's US branch wisely passed on, since they knew SCEA wouldn't approve it. (And indeed, almost 18 months after WD announced the title, SCEA still hasn't approved it.)

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

If I can ask on a side note, Zach -- what IS Sony's problem with Goemon, anyway?

It makes me wish for the 'open ended' days of Atari and the 3DO when companies could release what they wanted for very little hassle and up front cost.

Now a days, no one would DARE release a 'unlienced' game. Sad, really....

I guess that's one reason I'm more of a PC gamer -- no problem with that there.