The oldest game system to feature RGB output?

[Anthony1]

I'm guessing it's the Sega Master system, right?

But I could be wrong. I don't know of any systems older than the master system that are capable of RGB output. But I just wanted to be sure.


These are the systems that I know output a RGB signal:

1. Sega Master System - The Master system has the same audio/video plug as the Genesis, so if you have a Genesis RGB cable you can use that on the Master system as well. Of course you can also get the Master System converter that plugs onto the top of the Genny and get your Master system games in RGB that way too.

2. TurboGrafx-16 - The Turbo's RGB signal is kinda weak, and I think you need a RGB cable that has some aplification chips in it, to a get a great RGB signal from the Turbo. I think TurboDuos need to be modified internally to output the RGB signal.

3. Sega Genesis - The Genesis has a solid RGB signal, I don't even think you need any special chips to amplify the signal. In other words if you can solder stuff, then you can build your own. To get RGB from a Genny 2, you either need a specific Genny 2 RGB cable, or an adapter for the Genny 1 RGB cable that converts it to plug into the Genny 2. I'm almost positive that the Genny 3 doesn't have any RGB capabilities.

4. Super Nintendo - The SNES has RGB output, but the SNES 2, or SNES jr had the RGB capabilities removed.

5. Sega CD - Sega CD outputs it's RGB signal through the Genesis a/v port.

6. Neo-Geo - Neo-Geo has RGB output

7. Atari Jaguar - Jaguar has RGB output

8. Sega 32X - The 32X has RGB output, but you need to have a Genny 2 RGB cable or an adapter for your Genny 1 RGB cable.

9. Sega Saturn - The Saturn has RGB output

10. Sony Playstation - The Playstation has RGB output

11. Nintendo 64 - The N64 needs to be internally modified to output RGB. Not all versions of the U.S. N64 can be modified, and I don't think any PAL N64's can be modified. Also, the N64 RGB cable needs some special aplification chips in it to amplify the very weak N64 RGB signal.

12. Sega Dreamcast - The Dreamcast has RGB output. But since 90 percent of the DC games are progressive scan, might as well use the VGA Box and hook it up to a PC monitor or a HDTV.

13. Sony Playstation 2 - You can use a PS1 RGB cable with a PS2 no problem.

14. XBOX - I believe that there is a XBOX RGB cable that you can get, but I don't know why anybody would play their XBOX in RGB. Might as well play it in progressive scan on either a PC monitor with a "TRUE" VGA Adapter (not the fake ones) or play it on a HDTV.

15. GameCube - There is a way to get RGB from the GameCube, but it is expensive. It requires somebody to hack Nintendo's special component cable. The Cube might need to be internally modified too, I'm not sure.

16. Game Boy Advance - If you have the necessary items to play your Cube in RGB, with a Game Boy Player for the Cube you can actually play Game Boy Advance games in RGB on a RGB monitor!!!!!!!


That's all the systems that I can think of at the moment. I might have left something out, like the SuperGrafx or something like that. I'm not sure about the FM Towns Marty or the NEC PC-FX.


Notable systems that lack RGB capabilities:


NES - No RGB output, although I've heard of an super duper expensive hack of a Play Choice that will allow you to play NES games in RGB. But I don't know anybody that can really confirm this or not. It's just rumors as far as I can tell.

Phillips CD-I - I don't believe the CD-I has any RGB capabilities but I'm not 100 percent positive

Panasonic 3DO - I know for a fact that playing 3DO games in RGB is impossible.

[§ Gideon §]

Heh. I always thought you were the forum authority on these matters... So, I doubt anyone will be able to help much.

[Raedon]

Sega system's didn't output even S-Video until the Saturn.. The MS and Gen support Composite only (which the NES toaster did before so they didn't really pioneer that one.)


first Composite out cart system - Vic 20

First S-Video out system (though home made cables are needed the system itself does not need to be touched) - Commodore 64


First RGB home system - SNES

In fact it's about the only one. Everything recent supports component (YPrPb) which has nothing to do with RGB except the three RCA connections.

[Ed Oscuro]

Mmm...I guess we're discounting arcade machines.

Various MSX units might've had RGB (but they're computers, right?). I know the Sharp Famicom Titler had S-video, but that's not that close.

Sega's SC-3000 might have had RGB and that one dates from July 1983. The home console version (SG-1000/1000 II) probably didn't. Again, there's no way for me to say for sure since I haven't seen mine yet.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ahh, heck :O

The Sharp x68000 series started in 1987, and they've always had RGB. They use either square or VGA monitors.

[Raedon]

Mmm...I guess we're discounting arcade machines.

Various MSX units might've had RGB (but they're computers, right?). I know the Sharp Famicom Titler had S-video, but that's not that close.

Sega's SC-3000 might have had RGB and that one dates from July 1983. The home console version (SG-1000/1000 II) probably didn't. Again, there's no way for me to say for sure since I haven't seen mine yet.

I assume "game system" means home cart system that can work on a home TV. Anyway, I know for a fact those are the earliest that I know do those video modes. That is just from personal, hands on knowledge. I know nothing before those. I'd love to know if there was something earlier.

[Raedon]

the Sharp x68000 can't be considered a game system in the traditional sense for the same reason the Amiga can't be.. No cart games.

It seems to be a home console a computer (shipped with keyboard) game system MUST use carts.

[Anthony1]

First RGB home system - SNES

What exactly do you mean by that? I must be misunderstanding this quote, because I play my TurboGrafx-16 and Sega Genesis in RGB all the time and they were both released in 1989, while the Super Nes came out in 1991.

[Raedon]

First RGB home system - SNES

What exactly do you mean by that? I must be misunderstanding this quote, because I play my TurboGrafx-16 and Sega Genesis in RGB all the time and they were both released in 1989, while the Super Nes came out in 1991.

Ok, I think you have confused the term "RGB" with anything that can be hooked up non-RF (channel 3-4.)

First off, RF sucks. It's terrible, it's audio + video pounded violently into a single stream where it competes with all kinds of interference. The final result is completely unacceptable.

Remember those red, white and yellow cables you got with your video game system when you first bought it? They carry stereo audio (red + white) and composite video (yellow), and if you're not in Europe or some other small-time countries they're specifically using NTSC video. The NTSC standard is widely derided and is considered unacceptable for any post-consumer or professional use. It's a quagmire of oft-ignored standards and misleading specs, compounded by everything imaginable: The quality and age of your display, the quality of your cabling, operating temperature (Seriously!) and more. This is why other video formats are becoming more popular. It's the modern baseline, all new game systems and DVD players include AV cables not only because most TVs have AV inputs, but because they're the cheapest to make.

S-video uses two wires for the video instead of composite's single wire, and this results in a large drop in interference and an increase in colour purity and clarity. It also allows a 20-100% increase in colour resolution and near complete elimination of dot-crawl. It's far better than composite video and most new, larger TVs support Svideo inputs.

Component video isn't a new format, but it's quite new in consumer electronics, becoming popular with the first DVD players. It's generated with a mathematically complex formula that takes a video signal and divides it into three parts: A black + white Luminance (brightness, Y) signal and two Chroma (colour Y-r + Y-b) channels. The television receiving these signals recombines the three signals into a coherent whole for display, subtracting the blue and red from the brightness signal. Whatever's left over is green, the end result is a high-resolution green channel and a low res red + blue channel. There's a certain amount of quality loss with this method, especially when the signal comes from a DVD source where the red + blue signals are typically 75% lower resolution than the green. Please use a google search on human vision deficiencies for reasons why this isn't as bad as it sounds. While there's no maximum spec for component video in terms of resolution, the limited bandwidth for the two colour channels means that you cannot easily achieve the same kind of colour vibrancy RGB offers - but it's still better than any non-RGB format.

RGB is the king of all video formats, with no maximum resolution beyond the abilities of the display generator + receiver used. It's no more wiring intensive than component video, with only three wires needed. Historically though RGB was unecessary except for computer displays, so it never made inroads into consumer hardware and there's no standard connector. Combine this lack of standardization with the movie industry's unwavering belief that we're all pirate scum and you end up with a lack of interest in this pure format.

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Raedon -

I agree with you on the x68000, that's clearly a computer system.

To blur the line (and make it more popular) the MSX series had some peculiar specifications:

a.) Plugs into a TV
b.) Must have one cartridge port, should have two if possible

So right there - it's a "home cart system." I would say it's a computer, but many models were marketed as gaming machines. That's true of some PCs today as well, but with the ports of arcade/home console games MSX sure feels like a console.

But I can't say much more...I should take a look at my own MSX 2 (though since it's one of those "use it as l337 game machine! models, I doubt it would have RGB anyway) and some other various models.

I would suppose the Sony F900 video editing MSX 2 machine has RGB.

[Ze_ro]

NES - No RGB output, although I've heard of an super duper expensive hack of a Play Choice that will allow you to play NES games in RGB.

Since arcade machines generally use RGB natively, I doubt that it would be expensive to get RGB out of a PC10 board. I don't have intimate knowledge of the board though, so if it has some special monitor connection or something, feel free to correct me.

Of course, using a PC10 just to get RGB output is a little excessive (especially with the whole dual-monitor thing that the PC10 has going). Were there any European NES's released with SCART output capability? I would think anything with a SCART cable would be trivial to convert to RGB.

Panasonic 3DO - I know for a fact that playing 3DO games in RGB is impossible.

What is it that makes this impossible?

First S-Video out system (though home made cables are needed the system itself does not need to be touched) - Commodore 64

I don't think Commodore had S-Video in mind when they made the system (In fact, the standard might not have even existed at the time)... it's just a happy coincidence that the seperated Chroma/Luma signal they used happened to be the same used in S-Video.

And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the VIC-20 capable of the same seperated Chroma/Luma signal that the C-64 used? I'll have to see if I still have a VIC manual in the basement to check on this. The VIC and C-64 don't use the same video cables, so you might be right.

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the VIC-20 capable of the same seperated Chroma/Luma signal that the C-64 used? I'll have to see if I still have a VIC manual in the basement to check on this.

Ah, I found the manual... you're right, the only signal coming out of the video port is a composite signal.

--Zero

[Raedon]

First S-Video out system (though home made cables are needed the system itself does not need to be touched) - Commodore 64

I don't think Commodore had S-Video in mind when they made the system (In fact, the standard might not have even existed at the time)... it's just a happy coincidence that the seperated Chroma/Luma signal they used happened to be the same used in S-Video.

And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the VIC-20 capable of the same seperated Chroma/Luma signal that the C-64 used? I'll have to see if I still have a VIC manual in the basement to check on this. The VIC and C-64 don't use the same video cables, so you might be right.

It is cool and lucky that the newer 8 pin din C64's had a seperate luma and chroma allowing for a homemade s-video cable. The newer US 8 pin din c64's might have actually help create the S-Video format as the cable that used the seperated luma and chroma for Commodore's model monitor that took the 3 RCA input (Luma/Chroma/audio) might have turned some heads in the industry. The fact that the S-Video connector wasn't patented back then doesn't change the fact that the signal out the back of the 8 pin din C64 includes a seperated luma and chroma.


As for the last question:

The Vic-20 and the original US version C64 had a 5 pin din video/audio/etc port not a 8 pin din port. guess what was on those extra 3 pins not included (one being non-video related.) Luma and Chroma do not exit the back of the Vic20 or first ver. release US C64.

I know way to much about this crap.. I AM a NERD!! x_x

[FABombjoy]

First RGB home system - SNES

The SMS, Genesis, TG16, and Neo-Geo all output bona-fide RGB and predate the SNES. The video port pinouts are available for on gamesx.com

[Ed Oscuro]

The SMS eh? So that means the Mark III had RGB...and then that also makes it more likely the SG-1000 and SC-3000 may have (especially in the case of the SC-3000 which was intended to be used as a computer).

[Raedon]

First RGB home system - SNES

The SMS, Genesis, TG16, and Neo-Geo all output bona-fide RGB and predate the SNES. The video port pinouts are available for on gamesx.com

thanks, that is what I needed, a pinout source.

[Anthony1]

First RGB home system - SNES

The SMS, Genesis, TG16, and Neo-Geo all output bona-fide RGB and predate the SNES. The video port pinouts are available for on gamesx.com

thanks, that is what I needed, a pinout source.

I also know a guy that makes RGB cables to order for virtually every system and every RGB monitor. He's very good, and does high quality work. He can even modify N64's for RGB output. He also does TurboGrafx-16 RGB mods and TurboDuo RGB mods.

Of course you can always make your own cable, but unless you really know what you are doing, then you can really screw it up and spend alot of time and money with no results. However, if you are pretty skilled at that sort of thing, then you can make a cable no problem. But also be aware of the fact that alot of these cables need aplification chips to aplify the signal and sometimes they need a chip to strip the sync.

At one point I tried to make my own cable but then I just said F it and paid $30 and got it shipped to me.

Saved me alot of wasted time and struggle.

The guy's name is Matthew and you can hit him up at:

the_matthew@yahoo.ca