Genesis Doesn't

[QuickSciFi]

Here's a little list of Genny/CD RPGs I'm trying to complete (own). These are just items I consider RPGs on the Genny, granted many people would disagree. Notice the inclussion of Star Odyssey, as it is a list of games to be purchased between now and the near future:

List of Sega Genesis RPGs:
1. Arcus Odyssey
2. Battlemaster
3. Beggar Prince
4. Beyond Oasis
5. Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday
6. Cadash
7. Crusader of Centy
8. Dungeons & Dragons: Warriors of the Eternal Sun
9. Exile
10. Fatal Labyrinth
11. Gemfire
12. Genghis Khan II: Clan of the Grey Wolf
13. King’s Bounty
14. Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole
15. Legend of Wukong
16. Light Crusader
17. Master of Monsters
18. Might and Magic: Gates to Another World
19. Phantasy Star – SMS - (Via Power Base Converter)
20. Phantasy Star II
21. Phantasy Star III: Generations of Doom
22. Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium
23. Pier Solar and the Great Architects
24. Pirates! Gold
25. Rings of Power
26. Shadowrun
27. Shining in the Darkness
28. Shining Force
29. Shining Force II
30. Sorcerer’s Kingdom
31. Spiritual Warfare
32. Star Control
33. Star Odyssey
34. Star Trek: The Next Generation – Echoes from the Past
35. Starflight
36. Super Hydlide
37. Sword of Vermilion
38. Technoclash
39. The Faery Tale Adventure
40. The Immortal
41. Traysia
42. Uncharted Waters
43. Uncharted Waters 2: New Horizons
44. Warsong
45. Wonderboy in Monsterworld
46. Ys III: Return of the Wanderers


List of Sega CD RPGs:
1. Dark Wizard
2. Dungeon Explorer
3. Dungeon Master 2: Skullkeep
4. Eye of the Beholder
5. Heimdall
6. Lunar: Eternal Blue
7. Lunar: The Silver Star
8. Popful Mail
9. Revengers of Vengeance
10. Shining Force CD
11. Vay


This list doesn't include many of the games I still want to purchase that simply have RPG elements to them. On that same note, I could understand how someone would dismiss Pirates! Gold or Battlemaster as mere strategy titles. But come on! The Shining Force series? Really? It's a tactical RPG and about as iconic an RPG series as the Phantasy Star Series, if not more. And don't get me started about Beyond Oasis and other "Action" RPGs. It's a subgenre (a genre within a genre). It's still an RPG (Just like Zelda ). Deal with it.

At any rate, point being made: While not everyone would agree that the above list contains only RPG titles, I think everyone could agree that anyone in his/her right mind would be able to pick at least a handful of good RPGs from said list and enjoy them as much as any other 16-bit machine can offer.

On another, related, note: Why are we concentrating on RPGs as the reason why Sega does (or doesn't, if you must)? I've personally been through the entire Genny/MD's library (concentrating mostly on the U.S./NTSC titles) and have had trouble bringing the list down to a top 350, let alone a top 250. The truth is, there are a bunch of great titles (500+ of which I know I would love and thoroughly enjoy, and about half of which I know everyone should be able to find enjoyable).

But keep in mind folks, the Sega does what Nintendon't campaign was aimed at it's then first combatant in the console wars, the NES. And it had nothing to do with games on the system, but the raw power of the console itself. However, seeing this retrospectively, I can understand the obvious comparison to the SNES. From what I've seen, there also are a number of great titles for the SNES that I would love to own and enjoy. But ask yourselves this question: Have I "thoroughly" looked at every single game each of the systems have to offer and compared the number of those I want to play to each other? The Genny had around 200 more games released than the SNES. Sure it had some flops (just like the SNES), but it also had a ton of great ones (just like the SNES).

So, back to the RPG issue: Do I believe the Genny had a solid number of RPG titles to offer? Indeed I do, yes siree.

[Cornelius Spunkwater]

So Zelda is an RPG series?

Like I said, even if you count anything remotely related as an RPG, people don't like the SNES as an RPG platform for Feda, Popful Mail, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Sim City, Super Mario World and Populous so much as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Lufia, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, etc.


This list stretches it a bit, but even then it pegs the SNES/SFC as having around 70 RPGs-

http://forums.gamewinners.com/forums...d.php?t=282986


Melf was correct stating that the Genesis has as many RPGs as Shooters, if you're going to include so many random genres as RPG. But by that same rationale, the Genesis has as many RPGs as SNES. So Genesis fans should no longer say that the system has "enough RPGs, just not as many as SNES".


I love RPGs and pretty much anything "questy", but the way that some people are stretching the definition of RPG, it's ignoring it as a sub-genre of something much larger like "Adventure" or I guess something even broader if war sims and other various sims and sidescroller/platformers are included. But the closest and best description I can think of would be "Non-Sports-Games".

All these games may appeal to RPG fans, but that doesn't mean that they should all ditch their various genres and just fall under the banner of "RPG". Or if the term "RPG" is to be sacrificed to cover so many other genres, then a new term needs to replace it for games like Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, Tengai Makyou, etc.

I'd pitch the Genesis/Sega-CD library as having plenty 'for fans of RPGs to enjoy' than what equates to 'as many as, or more RPGs than SNES'.

Super Mario World? Sim City? Populous? Now you're just getting outlandish. Let's not confuse straightforward platformers and real-time strategy/god games with games containing actual RPG elements (i.e. exploration, XP, quests, classes or abilities, etc, etc)

I'll be the big man here and give you Popful Mail. It's a side-scrolling platform RPG, but it's pushing it. That said, let's look at the games in question and break down their specific genre:

Dark Wizard - Tactical RPG
Shining Force CD - Tactical RPG
Shining Force - Tactical RPG
Beyond Oasis - Action RPG
Light Crusader - Action RPG
Shadowrun - Action RPG
Ys III - Action RPG
Starflight- Simulation RPG
Pirates! Gold - Simulation RPG

Just because a game's mechanics break away from the mold of a traditional RPG doesn't mean that it isn't an RPG. You could say that Starflight and Pirates! Gold defy categorization because they're so fantastically ground-breaking, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But I still would have to place them under the banner of RPG because you assume the role of a captain in both instances.

You might be bothered by the fact that these aren't classical RPGs but that doesn't change their status as RPGs.

[Olls]

I think that Genesis fans who stretch way to far in their definition of RPG, just to pad Genesis lists give the biggest impression that the system has "zero" RPGs.

From the last 3 posts, here are games listed as RPGs that clearly aren't-

Snatcher
Popful Mail
Dark Wizard
Shining Force CD
Shining Force
Beyond Oasis
Light Crusader
Starflight
Ys III
Shadowrun
Pirates! Gold

Here are all the games mentioned that actually are-

Phantasy Star (let's count that as 4 games)
Lunars (2)

When most people talk about 16-bit RPGs, especially when it involves the SNES, they mean Japanese console RPGs. It's nice for RPG fans who enjoy other questing/character building/adventure style games, when there are a number of alternatives.
But Mario games are as much RPGs as some of the games that get put out there as RPGs for Genesis.
This is still true though, so there's no need to count every game under the sun as "RPGs".

The number of games for Genesis/Sega-CD that most people consider shooters, is closer to the number of RPGs and almost-RPGs for SNES or PCE. If the definition for shooter were stretched as far as RPG often is in Genesis circles, then not only would games like Contra and Vectorman count as shooters, but even games like Herzog Zwei, Lethal Enforcers and Snatcher. In which case the shooters would outnumber RPGs all the more.
But a handful of quality RPGs is worth more than an infinite number of boring or bad ones and the Genesis/Sega-CD more than has this covered.

I've had this discussion on Sega-16 before and it seems that people there are a little genre-confused, because you are absolutely right.

Super Mario World? Sim City? Populous? Now you're just getting outlandish. Let's not confuse straightforward platformers and real-time strategy/god games with games containing actual RPG elements (i.e. exploration, XP, quests, classes or abilities, etc, etc)

I'll be the big man here and give you Popful Mail. It's a side-scrolling platform RPG, but it's pushing it. That said, let's look at the games in question and break down their specific genre:

Dark Wizard - Tactical RPG
Shining Force CD - Tactical RPG
Shining Force - Tactical RPG
Beyond Oasis - Action RPG
Light Crusader - Action RPG
Shadowrun - Action RPG
Ys III - Action RPG
Starflight- Simulation RPG
Pirates! Gold - Simulation RPG

Just because a game's mechanics break away from the mold of a traditional RPG doesn't mean that it isn't an RPG. You could say that Starflight and Pirates! Gold defy categorization because they're so fantastically ground-breaking, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But I still would have to place them under the banner of RPG because you assume the role of a captain in both instances.

You might be bothered by the fact that these aren't classical RPGs but that doesn't change their status as RPGs.

Huh? I'd say it's more like this:

Shining Force CD - Strategy
Shining Force - Strategy
Beyond Oasis - Action Adventure
Light Crusader - Action Adventure
Shadowrun - Action Adventure
Ys III - Action Adventure
Starflight- Simulation
Pirates! Gold - Simulation

Haven't played Dark Wizard, so I can't really say. Probably not an RPG. :P

[Breetai]

From the last 3 posts, here are games listed as RPGs that clearly aren't-

Snatcher
Popful Mail
Dark Wizard
Shining Force CD
Shining Force
Beyond Oasis
Light Crusader
Starflight
Ys III
Shadowrun
Pirates! Gold

The Shining Force games are RPGs- strategy RPGs. Dark Wizard might be the same, but I haven't played it since the mid-90s so I can't remember. Same with Shadowrun (even though it's sitting a few feet away from me ATM). Popful Mail and Ys III could be defined as action RPGs. Beyond Oasis... I would just classify it as an Action Adventure game, like Zelda. It's definitely not an RPG. I haven't played Light Crusader, Starflight or Pirates! Gold, so no idea on those.

None of the games I commented on are standard RPGs in the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy/Ultima sense, but they are types of RPGs. It just depends on how you define "RPG". You seem to be defining it in the sense that I mentioned a couple sentences ago. In that case, you'd be right on the mark.

[Rolf&Nei]

My opening response is to remind everybody that SNES versions of games are not better than Genesis. This idea was bred by magazines bribed by Nintendo and influenced by lazy developers for whom the Genesis was harder to program upon (this was the case for every Sega system; nonetheless their capacities have always been on par with their rivals'). The SNES does have higher sound resolution, but that's not even usually a good thing given the garbage that went into all those old platformers; nor are its graphics really superior, only brighter in a particularly cheap, floating way that resembles SuperSal 2x emulation of the 8-bit NES. Plus you have to factor in its inferior controller and the irritating arrangement of buttons in many games where they can't be altered, such as Hagane, with attack on Y above weapon switch. 2 concrete examples are its launch title, Super Mario World, whose graphics are pale and thin next to those of Mario 3, not to mention Altered Beast's--and nothing the SNES ever produced would match the bright crispness of the first Sonic. Example #2 is Alien 3, a very solid game on the Genesis (granted both versions tend much more toward the second flick) which is totally different and unplayable on SNES. I won't elaborate; test them yourself.

Those awful games:
---Sonic Spinball. A dismal pinball game with faint bile-surges of platforming. Might have been decent with Sonic-quality graphics...no, only less insulting.
---Growl. Don't know whether this appeared on SNES, but for pity's sake I'll hope not. Like a 2nd rate NES brawler. Don't even try it.
---General Chaos. Smash TV out of doors and style. It's also wobbly. Only for Ikari fanatics. {Gain Ground, quite unlike this game but mentioned in a previous post, deserves some defence. It's merely harder than fun.}
---Lemmings (all). Both systems had these atrocities. The SNES's though would've been worse due to that higher sound resolution, as the riff they mog about to is the kind of thing madmen hum on shooting sprees.
---Battleship. (On SNES?). Lacks a ship, and plays by the original salvo rules...'original' meaning it was just a pen and paper game like hangman before being trumped up in a plastic case and copyrighted.
---Greendog the Beached Surfer Dude. Terribly cheap. Use it as a pog.
---Shining in the Darkness. Another pov dungeoner. Cheap and unimaginitive.
---Packy and (~ something). A cautionary on diabetics. Honestly.
---RocketKnight. Cheap and unimaginitive; unworthy of Konami, much less inclusion in the Snatcher bar.
---Sonic Blastman. Sounds as stupid as it is, an aging ad exec's notion of cool, perhaps programmed by his secretary. Think Power Rangers.
---Super Hydlide. Simultaneously much too late and too early for this sort of game to have any appeal.
---Clayfighter. Pretty sure this appeared on G too, where it'd still be awful, though, if SNES partisans are correct about their brighter colours, resoundingly improved: the less you can see of this game the better.
---Mickey Mouse in the Castle of Illusion. Drabber and smaller-sprited than Fantasia, which somebody listed earlier. {But World of Illusion is glorious}.
---EA Sports. Everything this company has ever made is sweatshop quality and comes apart as fast as basketball shoes on asphalt.
-------Sorry, memory's a jilt. There are quite a few flea-bitten puzzle games, which often masqueraded under adventurous, bloody titles, but their names escape me. Rest assured there is no dearth of sickening crap on either system to be explored.

----SNES bombs: I'm going to try to file this under the proper thread that initiated the topic. If you haven't found it after a couple days you (a) have been trying too long, and (b) can check back here. Thanks for the read.

[Olls]

My opening response is to remind everybody that SNES versions of games are not better than Genesis.

You post this, so I'm thinking: "hey, somebody with brains and knowledge of Sega's 16-bitter", but then immediately after:

Those awful games:

---RocketKnight. Cheap and unimaginitive; unworthy of Konami, much less inclusion in the Snatcher bar.
---Mickey Mouse in the Castle of Illusion. Drabber and smaller-sprited than Fantasia, which somebody listed earlier. {But World of Illusion is glorious}.
---EA Sports. Everything this company has ever made is sweatshop quality and comes apart as fast as basketball shoes on asphalt.

Are you on the same wavelength the rest of the world is on?
Rocket Knight Adventures (not "RocketKnight"), Castle of Illusion and several EA sports titles (think NHL 94 - 96, NBA Jam/TE, etc.) are among the very best Genesis/Mega Drive games ever made.

---Packy and (~ something). A cautionary on diabetics. Honestly.

That would be Pocky & Rocky, which isn't even a Genesis game. It's a pretty damn good SNES game though. One of the hidden gems.

---Sonic Blastman. Sounds as stupid as it is, an aging ad exec's notion of cool, perhaps programmed by his secretary. Think Power Rangers.

This is a SNES game.

----SNES bombs: I'm going to try to file this under the proper thread that initiated the topic. If you haven't found it after a couple days you (a) have been trying too long, and (b) can check back here. Thanks for the read.

You know what? Don't.
Instead, leave that up to people that know what they're talking about.

[Rolf&Nei]

Hey, Olls, thanks for correcting me about Pocky and Rocky, I'm glad it wasn't on Sega. As for Sonic Blastman, I must've played a hackport, but the same sentiment applies. In return I need to say NBA Jam/TE is an Acclaim-Iguana game, hence the comparative reality next those from the "If it's in the game, it's in the game" hypemongers. I like and have played quite a bit of NHL 94, however, when a game's marketing point is its fidelity to whatever it imitates, and there's none to be found, it's a failure. You and I may not have wanted a true representation of hockey then, basketball in 2000, or football now, but the sports fan who buys it or, if a child, has it bought for him, does, and there can be no realism in a game without working fundamentals. Line changes are nice; fatigue adds something; the cold/hot streaks are a good idea; but half of each team standing about the ice like goons while one or two others scramble and scrap doesn't exactly represent how hockey is played. Other examples would be Madden, whose post 2K editions have emphasized pocket passing with your triangle of qb vision, and yet are always most effectively played by running the qb outside the pocket to a degree that would disgust Michael Vick. Or Tiger Woods, in which literally any shot that misses the fairway is in danger of going out of bounds, although in real life you tend to get about 100 yards' leeway, while Woods himself has a very low fairway percentage and some years back at Augusta even stuck his ball atop the clubhouse only to be given a free pass. Furthermore you can't even putt from beyond a yard or two outside the green, and have chipping range limitations (a chip is just a kind of stroke; it's been famously used from more than 50 yards off the green). And he hasn't for a long time been the longest driver on tour: you should be able to create a stronger player regardless whether a real one (Bubba Watson, J.B. Holmes) is licensed. Then there's the EA basketball series, where the sole programming means of raising difficulty they've discovered is to ensure the cpu hits a Globetrotter percentage of shots. In their baseball the pitching system does no justice to the second most skilful area of sports (behind putting--that in TW is pretty good).
Sorry to everybody who likes Rocket Knight so much, but that was a bomb from my favourite company--I wanted and expected to like it too. Nor is it the first time Konami has had a technically deficient game run wild in popularity: Contra had horrendous flicker for its time--it's not all that hard a game when you can actually see it. (Yes, graphics and sound of Rocket's cheapness are a technical deficiency). Castle of Illusion was the Rocket Knight of Mickey Mouse games--excepting The Jungle Book, of Disney games. So why not bash a few hoary idols? Or will we have to sign in with a salute to every stupid moneymaker from yesteryear? Doom, FF2-6, Chrono Trigger, Crash Bandicoot, Killer Instinct, Super Mario World, Ridge Racer, Zelda 2, Tekken, and DKC: the Oscars list of video games. One point of a classic-gaming forum should be to help appreciate the stuff we missed while the awards were being given out. Salud.

[Guntz]

---Packy and (~ something). A cautionary on diabetics. Honestly.

Captain Novolin, which is a Super NES game.

Get it right............

[klax]

Dark Casle is the worst game ever!