Seeking advice: eBay dispute resolution

[fahrvergnugen]

So, I finally bought from my first bad seller. I'm including the e-mail chain here, it would be really great if I could get some advice on how best to deal with this situation. I've never had a problem with a seller or a buyer until now.

I bought 4 complete NES carts from this guy. He charged me $15 to ship. After 10 days, I e-mailed him to ask for tracking information, and he said, "The hurricanes in Florida might be screwing up the mail." Whatever. When the carts arrived, nearly two weeks after I paid, they were in an envelope with no protection and $4.50 worth of postage on it. When I opened it up, the games, which for the most part looked cherry in the auction photos, were in really bad shape. Angry, I decided I would ask for a refund and send them back. The e-mail chain below details my communication with him since last night.

Should I bother pursuing this? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill, or should I nail his ass to the wall? What do you guys think would be the best course of action? I'm not inclined to stress out much about $40, but on the other hand it's the principle of the thing.

We have a serious problem. I think you're trying to cheat me.

First: I paid you $14.45 for shipping. For my $14.45, you stuffed the games so tightly into a padded envelope that they were crushed, and then put $4.50 worth of postage on them. No wonder they took so long, and your excuse was pathetic. What would hurricanes in Florida have to do with postage from Maryland?

Profiteering on shipping is bad form. Normally I would just make a mental note to never do business with you again and move on, but this time I am unable to do that, because the items I've purchased from you are for the most part nothing like the items in your auction listings. They are in such bad condition that I cannot accept them. In detail:

-Tecmo Bowl arrived in a crushed box, with a permanent sticker attached to the front. One of the top flaps is torn off. The label on the cartridge is peeling. The bottom of the box is buckled on the right-hand side. There is no poster or Power subscription card, though they are pictured in the auction.

Compare what the auction photo looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...ctionphoto.jpg

To what the actual product looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...1-overview.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...02-boxflap.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...03-sticker.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...-cartlabel.jpg

The item in your photo is not the item you actually sold me.
This is unacceptable. I want a refund.

-R.B.I. baseball arrived without foam. The box is torn at the top. The sides have buckled near the bottom, where it is torn. The bottom of the box is caved in and does not hold shape. There is a permanent sticker on the front of the box. There is a price tag on the sleeve. There is a price tag on the cart. There are adhesive remnants on the cartridge itself. This is unacceptable. Although your auction photo showed only the cartridge, the cartridge in your photograph did not have a price tag on it.

Compare what the auction photo looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...ctionphoto.jpg

To what the actual product looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...bi/01-cart.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...rbi/02-box.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...-boxbottom.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...icker-tear.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...boxsticker.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/.../06-manual.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...nualcorner.jpg

The item in your photo is not the item you actually sold me.
This is unacceptable. I want a refund.

-Crystalis. The box is torn at the top. The sides are buckled. The bottom is crushed and does not hold shape or stay closed. The tabs do not hold form. Let me be clear: The bottom of the box is more or less totally destroyed. The manual is torn on the front and back cover, and wrinkled. The cartridge itself is very, very dirty. There is dirt inside the cartridge, that rattles around when I shake it.

Compare what the auction photo looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...ctionphoto.jpg

To what the actual product looks like:
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...1-overview.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...2-overview.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...tdirtfront.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...rtdirtside.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...rtdirtback.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...anualfront.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...manualback.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...8-boxright.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...-boxbottom.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...-boxcorner.jpg
http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/...11-boxleft.jpg

The item in your photo is not the item you actually sold me.
This is unacceptable. I want a refund.

You overcharged me for shipping and mis-represented your goods. Further, I believe that you likely did this intentionally. Although I paid quite promptly, you with-held feedback, presumably so that you could retaliate if I spoke openly about how you mis-represented your products and the way you exploited shipping. Too damn bad, buddy. I will blow you open,

I'm really unhappy with you, <REALNAME>. Out of four cartridges ordered, only
one, Blades of Steel, is in decent shape.

I want a refund for the three cartridges ordered. That's $34.77 for the
cartridges. Give me an address and I'll ship them back today (in better shape than you sent them to me). Shame on you, sir, for mis-representing your products in the way that you have, and for ripping off your buyers on shipping charges.

You can contact me at this address, or via instant messenger at these nicks:
AIM: fahrv242
ICQ: 50791045
MSN: fahrv@hotmail.com
Yahoo: fahrv242

I look forward to hearing from you very soon.

I'm writting to you just to say i have read your e-mail. I'm sure something can be worked out. I will have to review your e-mail before giving you a response and how i will handle this situation. maybe for the better maybe for the worse.

I'm sorry about some of the angry tone of my last letter. I was really frustrated at the time, and I let a lot of that show through.

This doesn't change the fact that I'm still unhappy with the product, and the fact that the condition of the items in the auction photos don't in any way match the items that arrived in the mail, but I am willing to see what you have to say about this matter.

Honestly the item I'm most upset about is Crystalis.

Hope to hear from you soon.

this is going to take me a little bit. I think the best thing to do is to talk about one item at a time. I really need to look at my auctions and read the fine print. Now as to shipping & Handling i know i charge a high price for shipping and handling. There are a number of reasons behind this one the cost of the auction to put up on e-bay, e-bay expenses, paypal expenses, are also calculated into the price of shipping (normally only covers about 20% of these costs). 2 nd Shipping supplies is expensive i spend like $200 a month on supplies. for $800 worth of auctions about $3.00 an auction. 3rd the auctual price of shipping (normally my international buyers end up paying me cost or less than what it cost me to ship and i end up taking $$$ out of pocket). 4th i had to buy the game which requires gas, money, my time etc most of the time i lose $$$$ on my auctions. I am just a poor college student who's trying despartly to pay his bills, study, and trying to make a living off of e-bay.

Anyway i explained the shipping now on to the games i will probably (not 100% sure as of yet) accept cryistalis and give you a refund for the game once i recieve the game. as for the others i am still researching the games. I've only did crystalis so far and checked that out. Also if you read my auction it clearly states "I am not responsible for lost or damaged mail" If i determine the games/boxes were damaged during shipping it won't be good for the both of us. The bubble wrap protects only does so much. Also you could have paid for insurance or even asked me to mail in a box. Things such as this is not my responsibility!!!!! but if i believe i may have inaccurately typed up the auction then i believe this is my responsibility and should take responsibility and try to provide the best customer support i can. anyway I will be writing you later today or tomorrow sometime

I don't like the direction in which this is going. you cannot honestly tell me that the cartridge you shipped me is the exact one in that picture, because it's not. The Crystalis cartridge in the picture is cherry. This one is beat up. Because of this, I want a refund.

I do a fair amount of selling, too. Are you aware that the post office will give you free boxes for Priority Mail? You can ship in those free boxes, and just throw in some styrofoam peanuts or shredded newspaper and everything will arrive in perfect condition, every time. Postage is usually $4 - $8 for complete Nintendo games, and you can print out your shipping labels, bought with Paypal, and tape them down before you go to the post office and just drop off the boxes. It even comes with tracking numbers included in your shipping price. It's very, very reasonable, and as I said, you get free boxes. All you need spend money on is tape, ink, and peanuts. If you ship a lot of individual complete NES carts, I recommend you ask the post office for 'Priority Mail video mailer' boxes, they're the perfect size, and can be dropped in any mailbox.

Shipping is not the appropriate place to recover your costs. The opening price of your item should include these costs. Shipping is just what it costs you to ship the item, not what it costs you to ship the item + list the item + buy the item + gas to get the item.

After taking those pictures yesterday, I spent a lot of time cleaning up the cartridges, Crystalis in particular. There's a tear in the label that I can't do anything about, and quite a few scratches, but the rest of the cart is in good shape now. The manual has been pressed back into shape, and with some work in a book press, the box can be recovered. I have no interest in doing this work. You can re-sell this item to someone else, with the real picture this time, and they can deal with the beat-up cartridge.

If I open a paypal dispute with the photos I've got, it's going to go to me, the buyer, for all of them. You send me a paypal refund, so there's no processing fees, and I'll return the games to you, with delivery confirmation.

I'm not going to let you wait me out of the time period in which I can take action. I'll be filing seller and paypal complaints on Monday morning, so you need to get it in gear and fire off that refund. As soon as I have cash in hand, you'll get a cartridge. You'll pardon if I don't really want to send you a cart without getting the money back first. It's just that after this, I don't trust you.

Ok if that is how you feel you have every right to but I REFUSE TO MAKE A REFUND PAYMENT UNTILL I RECIEVE THE GAMES!!!! I've had many bad experiences with this kind of situation. Once I recieve the games I will notify you by e-mail and make a refund normally that same day. I have done this before in the past my customers have ALLWAYS gotten a refund if they had a valid complaint about the product which they have recieved. I am an honest dealer and a fair one at that or so i believe and many of my customers who i had disputes before. But i will not make a refund untill I RECIEVE the games. THATS FINAL. Other wise complain to ebay I will gladely spend $20 for a disputer mediator and other appropriate actions will follow on my part if worse comes to worse. You have my games so i should send you a refund for the games while you still have them?! Doesn't make sense and then all you have to say is I shipped them and they m,ust have been lost in the mail. Then I'm out of my games and money which i recieved for the games. So that is why I kindly request you to send me the games then i can physically see the games and make a refund for them

You listed auctions with photos of items you weren't actually selling, and overcharged for shipping. Also you don't seem to believe in punctuation. In addition, your feedback includes the words "crook, liar," and most tellingly, "game arrived broken." I think you can understand why I might have a hard time trusting you right now.

Your insistence that you be allowed to evaluate the merchandise before issuing a refund also makes me very nervous.. What will happen if you decide the games are "good enough," that you can blame the damage on "the mail," and you don't want to issue a refund? Now you've got the games, and my money, AND I will have spent the money to ship them to you, AND you'll probably be asking me for another $20 shipping to return them to me. This gets very expensive, and requires me to trust someone who has already lied to me three times (once in each auction listing). Also there's that lame hurricane excuse. That one really bugs me.

Taking all of this into account, you can see why I'm not going to ship the games to you without you first issuing the refund. Sorry.

You've got until Monday morning to return my money. If you want, I will purchase the priority mail shipping label now, and give you the tracking information, along with photos of the items being packaged and prepared for shipment. But I'm not sending you the games without my refund.

So, what do you think I should do about this? Am I taking the right course of action?

[Griking]

1) Can you provide links to the auctions themself so we can see how the seller advertised the product?

2) The fact that the seller is making up for ebay and Paypal fees in their shipping rates shouldn't be an issue after the transaction was made. The fact that you paid his shipping fee means that you agreed to it. Now if he advertised priority mail and you got media mail then you have an arguement.

3) Your best arguement is that you didn't get the items advertised. Once of the games in your pics clearly shows what looks to be a retail sticker on the back of a cart which clearly isn't there in the seller's photo. Same with the price sticker on the football box. As for the condition of the boxes, I'm not really sure that it can be proved that the damage wasn't caused in shipping.

At this point it doesn't look like this is going to end with both of you happy. I'm not sure that Paypal will be any help because from what I've heard they aren't very helpful about chargebacks because items aren't as described. You may end up having to suck this one up and just leave him negative feedback.

[Gamereviewgod]

To the tune of the Besatie Boys classic:

You've got a right......to a refuuuuuunnnnnddddddd!

Ok, that was bad. I wouldn't send the games back either, but, I can see his side on that part. I wold likely want the games back first as well, but I wouldn't have gouged on shipping or lied to you. Report it.

[fahrvergnugen]

1) Can you provide links to the auctions themself so we can see how the seller advertised the product?

Yeah, sure.
Crystalis
R.B.I.
Tecmo Bowl

2) The fact that the seller is making up for ebay and Paypal fees in their shipping rates shouldn't be an issue after the transaction was made. The fact that you paid his shipping fee means that you agreed to it. Now if he advertised priority mail and you got media mail then you have an arguement.

I think you are quite correct.That's why I'm not asking him to refund the shipping overcharge. On the other hand, I don't really believe he spent $10 in ancillary costs on acquiring & shipping those 4 games.

3) Your best arguement is that you didn't get the items advertised. Once of the games in your pics clearly shows what looks to be a retail sticker on the back of a cart which clearly isn't there in the seller's photo. Same with the price sticker on the football box. As for the condition of the boxes, I'm not really sure that it can be proved that the damage wasn't caused in shipping.

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to prove the box damage took place before shipping, although I'm sure it did. It just seems too coincidental that one game would come through in fine shape while the others were thrashed. It's harder to blame shipping for a label / plastic damage on the actual cart, and sand rattling around inside of it, or price tags on the items.

At this point it doesn't look like this is going to end with both of you happy. I'm not sure that Paypal will be any help because from what I've heard they aren't very helpful about chargebacks because items aren't as described. You may end up having to suck this one up and just leave him negative feedback.

And of course he's one of those shithead sellers who doesn't leave feedback when payment is made, so I know that if I leave him negative, I'll get retaliatory. God I hate sellers who're like that, it's a sure-fire way to make sure I never do business with them again.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Makes me feel a bit better about all this.

[vision89]

I like how you compared his picture to the picture of the games you actually received . Anyways, I don't blame you for wanting a refund, it is against ebay policy to overcharge for shipping and he can be reported for that, though I'm not sure what ebay considers overcharging, and whether they will side with you because you agreed to those shipping prices. The fact that he shipped boxed games in a bubble mailer is terrible on his part, if he really spent that much money on shipping items each month he would be buying more than a bubble mailer. He should say that is the amount he would be spending on shipping if he was shipping items correctly. Also, he said that international bidders often pay him less than the shipping cost, that has nothing to do with you and you shouldn't be charged more for what other bidders do. At this point I think your best bet is to go through paypal for a refund leave, leave a neg and report him to ebay in hopes that he may be banned and not do this to anybody else. I'm so tired of sellers shipping boxed games in a bubble mailer, honestly, how can they be that stupid. You will probably be left a neg in retaliation, but it may be worth taking the bullet if it means he can't do this again.

[punkoffgirl]

I've never understood one part of this:

You have to PAY for a product before you receive it. Hence, you should recieve a refund before you ship the product back. A refund is nothing more than the seller buying the product back from you. It should work the same both ways. I think you'll be better off filing the paypal complaint regardless. You can always cancel the complaint if he comes through, it will show him that you're serious, and it sounds like it'll be the best way at this point to get satisfaction.

[Griking]

I see a few things in his auction descriptions that stand out.

"All sales are final"

This would have set off bells and whistles in my head as soon as I saw it.

"Winning bidder agrees to pay $5.00 for Shipping & Handling. Canada is $5.50 for shipping. This will provide for prompt shipping in a new bubble mailer, for added protection."

This is important because he advertised up front that he ships in bubble mailers. You should have contacted him beforehand and asked him if he'd use a box instead.

"I will combine shipping on multiple auction wins."

Did he end up offering you a combinded shipping rate? He said that he would.

"I am not responsible for lost or damaged mail."

Also important sinse it can't be proved that the games weren't damaged in shipping.

Again, you can file a Paypal complaint since I guess you have nothing to loose but I'm not sure if they'll be much help. After reading the auction descriptions though I think I'd just let it be and move on.

[skoldpadda]

I agree with punkoffgirl... furthermore, since he admits to basically charging you extra handling fees for going through PayPal, this means that he is NOT protected by PayPal (see their fine print for sellers) in certain regards.

I would go after this guy and definitely get a refund before sending the products _or_ use delivery confimation/signature receipt so you have proof the goods were delivered to him.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Funk Buddy]

The descriptions state he/she combines shipping, but didn't in your case?

I think you have a case w/ PP, don't even screw with eBay unless PP doesn't do you right. The items in the auction are significantly different than what you received. That should be enough for PP. Did you pay with a credit card? Your credit card company may be of some service if PP does nothing.

[fahrvergnugen]

Yeah, hIs combined rate was $15, instead of $20. Whooptee-doo.

furthermore, since he admits to basically charging you extra handling fees for going through PayPal, this means that he is NOT protected by PayPal (see their fine print for sellers) in certain regards.

That is awesome. Where can I find that fine print?

Thanks for all the support, guys. When I get into this kind of dispute, it gets so hard to keep objective about it. I like being sure that I'm not creating an issue where there shouldn't be one.

[fahrvergnugen]

Update: More e-mail!

Fine keep the games end of story bye

When I bought the games from you, I sent the money, then you sent me the games. When I want a refund, I ask that you buy the games back from me at the same price at which you sold them to me. Thus it makes sense that I require payment before I go to the effort & expense of returning the items to you.

Therefore I will send the items when the payment has been fully refunded, and not before.

I am also willing to consider escrow, in which case money is put into an account by you, from which it cannot be released without both our consent.

You have until tomorrow morning before I take action. I assure you, this will not be the end of the story. This is your last chance.

[farfel]

Shipping - no reason to complain.

Damaged carts - They are not what was advertised in photos. You deserve a refund

[-hellvin-]

Shipping - I get tired of stuff like this on ebay. Like one guy I HAD to pay shipping on two different items which he WOULD NOT combine, as well as insurance and they arrived TOGETHER in a bubble mailer in bad condition with cheap ass postage. You defenitely deserve retribution for the shipping. It's for the SHIPPING COST, not other random bullshit costs that need "coverage".

Games - Personally, I blame this part on you. I constantly see threads with people complaining that the box was damaged here or there, or was crushed......OK. When you win an auction, communicate with the damn seller on how you want your games to arrive. You can't expect them to box them and bubble wrap them just by default. If someone buys one boxed game off me and he doesn't tell me to give it better packaging, off into a bubble mailer it goes.

[TRM]

Whether the games were damaged in the mail or not, that is not the seller's fault. However, I KNOW that the games did not get extra labels on them while being shipped to the buyers house...therefore he did not send the items he showed, and that would be the major problem, imo.

[Daria]

What I don't get is everyone defending his over inflated shipping. Fine, a seller can throw in the the cost of his electric bill if he feels like it and if I agree to pay for it FINE. Whatever. But it stops being okay when he ships your games in a garbage bag to save himself the shipping which you've already paid for.

When the items arrived damaged that's his fault for being a cheap bastard. That makes sense right?

However if his auctions state he ships in a bubble mailer, and you're buying NES boxed games. That's a red flag not to bid.

[ddockery]

Games - Personally, I blame this part on you. I constantly see threads with people complaining that the box was damaged here or there, or was crushed......OK. When you win an auction, communicate with the damn seller on how you want your games to arrive. You can't expect them to box them and bubble wrap them just by default. If someone buys one boxed game off me and he doesn't tell me to give it better packaging, off into a bubble mailer it goes.

Well, since it was stated in the auction that he uses bubble mailers I'd say the seller is off the hook this time, but overall sending boxed games in bubble mailers is just shady. It's guarenteed to get crushed that way. Basically, when this happens I assume the game was crushed beforehand and sent this way to cover it up, and you can bet your ass I'd never buy from the same seller again. This has never actually happened to me, but I buy a lot more loose games too. It's not hard to find boxes for free, and they don't cost much to buy either. Definitely less than the $5/game this guy charges. And yes, I CAN expect boxes by default - to a reasonable person that's just common sense.

[Daria]

You can't expect them to box them and bubble wrap them just by default. If someone buys one boxed game off me and he doesn't tell me to give it better packaging, off into a bubble mailer it goes.

Wow. Remind me never to bid on your shit.

[fahrvergnugen]

More e-mail!

YOU LIED TO ME.
Can you see why that makes me angry?
Do you understand why I don't want to trust you to give me a refund?
Do you understand why I want the money back before I will give you the cartridges?
YOU LIED TO ME.

And yet in this entire transaction I have been nothing but forthright. In fact, I've made your games *better*. I've put foam in the cartridge that was missing foam. I put a plastic baggie on each of the cartridges. I glued and taped broken seals together. I've used a press to remove wrinkles from the corner of the R.B.I. manual. These goods are now in much better shape than they were when I got them, but they're not good enough for me, and they're not what you advertised. Issue me a refund, and take them back.

In fact, you know what? Fine. Go ahead and open a case with SquareTrade, for all three games. This isn't about just Crystalis, this is about Tecmo Bowl and R.B.I. as well. It's not worth $20 to me to have this mediated, but we'll see what they have to say.

If I don't have a refund by tomorrow, I will open a case with Paypal. I'm not going to let you drag this out past the 30-day Paypal limit.

I'm not going away, and I'm very persistent. I don't take being cheated lightly.
You file your case, and I'll file mine. I can always take back the paypal and eBay fraud complaints later if we get a successful resolution from this. But I'm not going to give you all the cards. You've lied.

I'm sorry i just don't see things your way. I remeber an old radio commercial in which this old lady said "It's my way or the highway" I found it really funny when i was younger but now I see that there is trueth in what she said. I'm sorry but i will pay $20 for Mediation through SquareTrade (they can also remove negative feedback). If you agree to this. Also to warn you there will be repocussions if I pay $20 for this mediation or at least I will try. You have the problem and you are not willing to co-operate with me I offered a refund once i recieved the games. So unless you change your mind there is no point in corrosponding with each other I recommend that we MUTUALLY AGREE to use mediation with SquareTrade. Even though I've never NEVER used them before. I had a customer like you before I tried to use Squaretrade but he refused so in the end he finally sent back the game and i refunded him the FULL AMOUNT including shipping dispite many disagreements.

Please read
I hope we can settle this without using SquareTrade and not so many disagreements and as many e-mails. Look at my FEEDback rating 98.8% only 3
negative feedbacks in the last 6 months in which i have listed over 500 auctions over 200 users. I figured 98%-99% of my customers get what they
wanted as discribed in my auctions. And 99% of people who had problems with a game because for an example it did not work, I kindly asked them to send me the game so I can first test it to make sure their claim is valid (which
it has been so far) and that same day as i receive the game I REFUND THEIR
MONEY IN FULL! so i end up losing sometimes a lot of money but i do this
because i believe in customer service (not many people or companies believe
this now-a-days) and i try to mediate as best i can. So if you send me the
games, how you suggested in a priority box to me i will refund your $$$ as
soon that same day when i recieve them so hopefully by the end of this week.

It's now gone to paypal dispute resolution, although the seller wants to pay $20 for a SquareTrade arbitrator. Apparently he's willing to spend $20 to arbitrate, but not $34 on making things right. Go figure.

Also, for the record: I'm with Daria. Remind me never to bid on any of hellvin's auctions.

[nathanray]

omg i believe i bid onthat same crystalis auction thanks for outbidding me i think you should try your best to get your money back

[rpepper9]

You can't expect them to box them and bubble wrap them just by default. If someone buys one boxed game off me and he doesn't tell me to give it better packaging, off into a bubble mailer it goes.

Wow. Remind me never to bid on your shit.

I second and third that!