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Thread: NEW NES 72 pin manufacturer *input wanted*

  1. #21
    Cherry (Level 1) eightbitonline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonk
    Quote Originally Posted by omnedon
    The MCM/Ebay ones hold carts in a DEATH GRIP, and have a 1 in 4 fail rate with the NTF2 diagnostic cartridge, in my tests.
    I'm not sure why the NTF2 cart will show a problem while others will not.

    From a technical stand point (after experimenting with mine and reproducing many other carts) the NTF2 is nothing but a standard cart. In fact, there should be many carts on the market that will fail while the NTF2 passes (because there are pins that are not connected on the NTF2 but are on other carts).

    A good example of a cart that's loaded to the max is SMB3. It uses a lot more pins than the NTF2 (because it uses more output address lines 256k NTFS vs 2048k SMB3!).

    It could be that you just have an NTF2 cart with very sensitive (i.e. thin) PCB.

    Apart from that, it doesn't do anything above and beyond a standard cart (i.e. no special added hardware or traces).
    i've brought this up to omnedon myself through PM. my NTF2 works extremely well on a number of systems, where other carts will not. of course, mine's not a standard one (as omnedon and leonk know).

    leonk: since mine is based off an SMB3 board is it slightly different from omnedon's, based on what you've mentioned above about SMB3 boards?

  2. #22
    Pear (Level 6)
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    Yours is not based on an SMB3 bord.. it's based on what an NTF2 should be based on.

    as far as pin differences.. scratch that. Any cart (be it SMB3 or NTF2) should use the same pins. There is no way that 1 cart doesn't use some pins while others do.

    Here's why:

    The NTF2 and a typical SMB3, Contra, etc. have both a PRG and a CHR ROM chip (or an SRAM chip but the NES sees it as a CHR ROM chip) Each cart has:

    - 8 pins to select memory address (D0->D7) (times 2 - 1 for CHR chip, 1 for PRG chip)
    - 15 pins for data return on PRG
    - 14 pins for data return on CHR (this is why the PRG chip is always same size as CHR or bigger)
    - power, ground, chip enablement, etc.

    When the NES tells the cart it wants a certain address, it puts the address on the bus (D0->D7) and then it waits for the reply (on the other pins). It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to listen to some pins or not another. The NES is 8 bits, so all 8 bits must also be used. The CPU is also hard coded to listen to all the return lines (even if not connected, it registeres as a 0).

    The point to all this? Unless you have a funky cart with extra hardware/pins, all carts work the same. The difference is how the cart overcomes the limitation of the addressable memory via the mapper chip and the usage of cache SRAM. (also know as VRAM/WRAM).

    wow. that was long.

  3. #23
    Cherry (Level 1) eightbitonline's Avatar
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    .... i knew that. x_x

  4. #24
    Pac-Man (Level 10) omnedon's Avatar
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    I didn't.

    That's odd. The pins that failed with the NTF2 cart, worked with some games, but not others.

    It could be as simple as a thinner PCB.

    So, leonk, a SMB3 cart (assuming the NES does not have it's lockout disabled) will utilize all 72 connections simulatneously, or do 'no' carts use them all?


    This is good discourse. Good info for NES users everywhere.
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  5. #25
    Apple (Level 5) Dr. Morbis's Avatar
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    So, leonk, a SMB3 cart (assuming the NES does not have it's lockout disabled) will utilize all 72 connections simulatneously, or do 'no' carts use them all?
    All my SMB3 carts only have 60 pins. Isn't the NES a 60 pin system? Sure, all the games are on 72 pin boards, but does any cart actually have middle pins (that are used)? I know the earliest games have 72 pins, but the middle pins are never attached to anything. Castlevania 3 and Kirby have two of the most complex boards, and even they don't have a full set of 72 pins.
    "And remember ladies: if it ain't tight, it ain't right!"

  6. #26
    Pear (Level 6)
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    The pins in the middle (that are missing on most new PCB's) are actually for the connector on the bottom of the NES. So they never get used.

    As far as the other pins. yes, they get used all the time.

    As far as the order goes.. oops. made a mistake. The D0-D8 data pins are the data return pins. The other pins are the ones that tell the cart/mapper what data is needed and control other stuff (like enable the chip to read, etc.)

  7. #27
    Pac-Man (Level 10) omnedon's Avatar
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    So, a new connector could be manufactured, minus specific middle pins, and all carts would still work?
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  8. #28
    Strawberry (Level 2)
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    Quote Originally Posted by omnedon
    So, a new connector could be manufactured, minus specific middle pins, and all carts would still work?
    Yep,

    Most of the middle pins on the 72's where dedicated for sole use with the expansion port (8 track drive) that was never utilized. IIRC it's 10 pins (might be 14) that are totally unused.

    And I wanted that damn Nintendo 8 track player too!!

  9. #29
    Pac-Man (Level 10) omnedon's Avatar
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    Fun-ky!
    ... for your gaming and iPod service needs http://www.oldschoolgamer.com/ For all your Video Game console and iPod upgrade/repair needs!

  10. #30
    Bell (Level 8) whoisKeel's Avatar
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    I'm not exactly sure I can input much to this thread..but what the hell

    First off, I don't understand the break-in period...I mean, they're pins that gradually bend in the direction you don't want them to...doesn't make sense to me.

    I installed a MCM pin in my NES, which worked great for a few months, then started to crap out. I'd say overall i got 80% first trys off of the new connector.

    Then I 'refurbished' my old pin and slapped it back in and I get a good 99% first try runs. I say 99% because I only have one cart out of 96 that gives me trouble from time to time (afterburner, a tengen cart, well used). I can't think of another cart that has given me ANY trouble since I refurbed my connector. My carts are well cleaned.

    But my opinion on whether you should use the SJ's or not? If they seem to work better than the MCM's...go for it, at least you're in a better standing position till something better comes out.

  11. #31
    Pac-Man (Level 10) FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisKeel
    First off, I don't understand the break-in period...I mean, they're pins that gradually bend in the direction you don't want them to...doesn't make sense to me.
    Perhaps there is a light film on the parts left behind as a result of the manufacturing process.

  12. #32
    Peach (Level 3) DogP's Avatar
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    Hey,

    I just got a weekly email from MCM and they're advertising the NES edge connectors... it says "Our new version of this connector is redesigned to ensure a quality replacement connector." Does anyone know if this is the same connector that they've been selling, have they redesigned THEIR connector, or are these the new ones that Omnedon is selling? You can see the ad here: http://mail.mcminone.com/email/weekly.html .

    DogP
    Virtual Boy Lives @ Project: VB

  13. #33
    Pac-Man (Level 10) omnedon's Avatar
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    I have no idea, but I'd be willing to bet they may very well be the same ones.

    The plant manufacturing them would want to make as many as possible.

    This is good news for everyone IMO.
    ... for your gaming and iPod service needs http://www.oldschoolgamer.com/ For all your Video Game console and iPod upgrade/repair needs!

  14. #34
    Crono (Level 14)
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    I seem to have horrific luck with these. No matter what connectors I try, on how many motherboards I try it and with how many carts, I always get flaky results. I'd say the BEST results I've gotten is about 80% reliability. Is 100% even possible?
    Seeking display quality copy of I Want My Mommy for the 2600... if you have one, PM me, I will pay/trade well.

  15. #35
    Pac-Man (Level 10) The Manimal's Avatar
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    how are these 'new' pins holding up so far?

  16. #36
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    If you mean the ones I bought, I haven't had the chance to investigate further. It may well be my set of test carts has a flaky cart or two, so take my experience thus far as only one datapoint.
    Seeking display quality copy of I Want My Mommy for the 2600... if you have one, PM me, I will pay/trade well.

  17. #37
    Pac-Man (Level 10) The Manimal's Avatar
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    Ah, I should have been more specific. I meant omnedom and this distributor/manufacturer from Canada and the pins that sometimes require "break in".

  18. #38
    Pac-Man (Level 10) omnedon's Avatar
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    I've installed more than 80 now, problem free.

    I've sold more than 100 here and there. I'm aware of some issues chadtower is having, and eightbitonline had issues with his once he tried one with a Geme genie.

    I've been unable to reproduce any of these problems. The only Game genie problem I could find in my testing, was that GG will NOT work with no cover on the NES. The strap on the GG uses the top of the NES to push it down a bit. No lid, no push down, no worky.

    I dunno what to say, other than I totally believe what chadtower says.
    ... for your gaming and iPod service needs http://www.oldschoolgamer.com/ For all your Video Game console and iPod upgrade/repair needs!

  19. #39
    Crono (Level 14)
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    Okay, I just took three of them and put them in new consoles. I took my set of test carts and test each of them 5 times. This is right out of the bag.

    On NES 1:

    SMB: 5 of 5
    SMB2: 4 of 5
    Ice Hockey: 1 of 5
    SMB/DH/WCTM: 5 of 5
    Double Dribble: 4 of 5
    SMB/DH: 0 of 5
    SMB3: 5 of 5


    On NES 2:

    SMB: 2 of 5
    SMB2: 4 of 5
    Ice Hockey: 1 of 5
    SMB/DH/WCTM: 4 of 5
    Double Dribble: 2 of 5
    SMB/DH: 0 of 5
    SMB3: 1 of 5


    On NES 3:

    SMB: 5 of 5
    SMB2: 5 of 5
    Ice Hockey: 4 of 5
    SMB/DH/WCTM: 5 of 5
    Double Dribble: 5 of 5
    SMB/DH: 0 of 5
    SMB3: 0 of 5


    So, at this point, pretty inconsistent. I took all of the carts open and thoroughly cleaned them, even though they had already been cleaned. I even lightly wet sanded them. I started to run a second set of tests on NES 3 and NONE of them were working. That's when I accidentally did it:

    I forgot to press the cart down.

    That 0 for 15 SMB/DH booted perfectly with the cart in the up position. In fact, it booted 10 times in a row that way. The other carts that were inconsistent all worked better up than down. Some worked best halfway down. There seemed to be no difference between after 0 insertions, 10 insertions, or 50 insertions. The variable is the cart angle.

    That makes this a really odd one to figure out where to go from here. My first guess is that the breakin period is not on the surface of the pins, it's on the tensile strength of the external part of the pins. It's the part on the back of the connector.
    Seeking display quality copy of I Want My Mommy for the 2600... if you have one, PM me, I will pay/trade well.

  20. #40
    Crono (Level 14)
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    so, the question for me basically is:

    What do I do with these? The breakin period seems to be moot, doesn't change anything. They're not working well with the carts down. I had bought them with the intention of swapping the pins and selling the units off. I can't sell them half functional... so now I'm still stuck with a stack of consoles and now with $75 in connectors that don't work OEM or close to it. How could I sell an NES and say "well, some games work in the up position, some halfway down if you want to wedge something in there, but most not while down".


    I said stuck with a stack.
    Seeking display quality copy of I Want My Mommy for the 2600... if you have one, PM me, I will pay/trade well.

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