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Thread: N-GAGE 2

  1. #41
    Banana (Level 7) classicb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagasian
    Quote Originally Posted by classicb
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagasian
    Making your company's product compatible with other people's software is not illegal and it is a good idea, as demonstrated by the "IBM compatible" PC market.
    I think a better comparison would be people who make bongs and pipes to smoke weed which are legal but the weed is not.

    and if you think for a second that Nintendo would be ok with this you've been hitting the bong too hard.
    So software is illegal? How would it be illegal to own software? How would it be illegal to run said software?
    maybe I'm missing your point but GBA software comes on a GBA cartridge. Did you want a slot for it on the N-Gage?

    Or are you saying that they should team up with the big N and charge for Rom downloads to the N-Gage.

    But as it stands right now I'm pretty sure it's illegal to download free GB roms and play them on your N-Gage even though the emulator is legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by classicb
    maybe I'm missing your point but GBA software comes on a GBA cartridge. Did you want a slot for it on the N-Gage?
    A built in GBA slot is one option but it would increase the system's size, or you could simply package the N-Gage with a device that lets you rip GBA carts, just as, for example, the iPod comes with iTunes, which lets you rip the contents of your music CDs. Perfectly legal, and it has great utility to the user: all of your music in one tiny device. Similarly the N-Gage 2 could promise all of your GBA games, on one tiny MMC card. http://www.linker4u.com/ already sells such a device for roughly $15. It is a GBA slot that hooks up to USB, and lets you rip your own GBA carts.


    Quote Originally Posted by classicb
    But as it stands right now I'm pretty sure it's illegal to download free GB roms and play them on your N-Gage even though the emulator is legal.
    It is illegal to break copyright law. Downloading free GB roms does not necessarily mean you are breaking copyright law, especially if the GB rom is licensed to be freely copied, as is the case with the hundreds of GBA games here:
    http://www.pdroms.de/roms.php?system...=Games&first=0

    What strikes me is how people still don't get it. The entire IBM PC clone thing in the 80s and early 90s. The MP3 craze during the late 90s... and yet people still think that there is something illegal about making your platform compatible with other people's software (IBM compatible, GBA emulation) and people still think that it is illegal to convert your software into more compatible formats (mp3, ripping GBA games)?

    I guess Nintendo's propaganda is very strong with many people here. They claimed emulation was illegal, but then sold people emulated games (the classic NES series on the GBA). What is funny is that Pocket NES was doing full fledged NES emulation years before Nintendo got around to the classic NES series. The original Zelda on the GBA? Thanks Nintendo, but I already bought Zelda for the NES and downloaded a free NES emulator for the GBA years ago. Too little, too late.

  3. #43
    Great Puma (Level 12) slapdash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagasian
    It is illegal to break copyright law. Downloading free GB roms does not necessarily mean you are breaking copyright law, especially if the GB rom is licensed to be freely copied
    Quite right. This is what they call a "non-infringing use". The problem is that since the DMCA, it's been harder to legally defend hardware OR software even WITH "non-infringing uses".

    What strikes me is how people still don't get it. The entire IBM PC clone thing in the 80s and early 90s. The MP3 craze during the late 90s... and yet people still think that there is something illegal about making your platform compatible with other people's software (IBM compatible, GBA emulation) and people still think that it is illegal to convert your software into more compatible formats (mp3, ripping GBA games)?
    Again, copyright law has been changing quite a bit... Certain things are still a gray area, but the DMCA has been pushing things AWAY from that. Some things ARE in fact illegal now, or at least litigateable.

    I guess Nintendo's propaganda is very strong with many people here. They claimed emulation was illegal, but then sold people emulated games (the classic NES series on the GBA).
    In the "old days", emulators were legal and copyrighted ROMs were illegal. Pretty simple. But, to emulate a system with an "exec" ROM or BIOS can, under the DMCA and recent legal precedents, be illegal.

    In essence, not everything has shaken out yet, and it will over time. But both sides of this argument have been right on some things and wrong on others, the way I see it. You're taking an optimistic view that Nokia could make some kind of GBA reader and emulator legally, and despite the DMCA, there's a chance you're right. But it's also shaky ground, and Nintendo does protect their content, and would -- almost certainly -- be able to prevent Nokia from doing it, whether by proving it's illegal, or outspending Nokia's willingness to pursue it in courts even if it isn't proved to be illegal. Hence, it would not be realistic for Nokia to bother.
    Russ Perry Jr, 2175 S Tonne Dr #114, Arlington Hts IL 60005
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapdash
    In essence, not everything has shaken out yet, and it will over time. But both sides of this argument have been right on some things and wrong on others, the way I see it. You're taking an optimistic view that Nokia could make some kind of GBA reader and emulator legally, and despite the DMCA, there's a chance you're right. But it's also shaky ground, and Nintendo does protect their content, and would -- almost certainly -- be able to prevent Nokia from doing it, whether by proving it's illegal, or outspending Nokia's willingness to pursue it in courts even if it isn't proved to be illegal. Hence, it would not be realistic for Nokia to bother.
    The GBA does not implement any form of copy protection aka DRM, and therefore the DMCA can't be put into effect to prevent people from selling a device that lets you rip your own carts. This is what separates CD music ripping software from DVD movie transcoding software. The encryption used by DVD movies is what allowed for the invocation of the DMCA, as transcoding a DVD movie involved circumventing a DVD's DRM. Furthermore, the DMCA makes exceptions for circumventing copy protection when system interoperability is the intent. Making an N-Gage 2 compatible with GBA software would fall under that category. Nintendo would have no legal grounds to stand on, and Nokia is a far wealthier company than Nintendo. Hence if Nintendo wanted a fight, they might not just lose, but they might also be subject to expensive counter litigation causing their already weakened company to go belly up.

    Nintendo is no longer the big and powerful giant that it was in the late 80s and early 90s.

  5. #45
    Kirby (Level 13) zektor's Avatar
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    Bah. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife's father a few months ago. He had this "great idea" to create a game system that can play every game, for every system, from the beginning of time to date. I tried to explain to him why this can (and will) never happen, but he just didn't get it for some reason.

    Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.

    What I am essentially trying to say is that while it may be OK for the average homebrewing Joe to create something like a GBA emulator at home, for the PC (which is pretty much inregulated in a sense), once some major corporation like Nokia, releasing one gaming console that will be available to millions, and including this software...there will be a problem..a lawsuit...and they will not win. Has not history taught us this lesson?

  6. #46
    Strawberry (Level 2) Diatribal Deity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zektor
    Bah. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife's father a few months ago. He had this "great idea" to create a game system that can play every game, for every system, from the beginning of time to date. I tried to explain to him why this can (and will) never happen, but he just didn't get it for some reason.

    Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.

    What I am essentially trying to say is that while it may be OK for the average homebrewing Joe to create something like a GBA emulator at home, for the PC (which is pretty much inregulated in a sense), once some major corporation like Nokia, releasing one gaming console that will be available to millions, and including this software...there will be a problem..a lawsuit...and they will not win. Has not history taught us this lesson?
    As a matter of fact it has!

    "Expansion Module #1 - Atari 2600 Adaptor, retailing at $60. This expansion module allowed Colecovision owners to play all Atari 2600 cartridges. A great marketing strategy, this allowed Coleco to tap in to the Atari user base and also gave them a game library larger than any other gaming system. Atari of course, promptly sued Coleco for $350 million in December of '82, claiming Coleco ripped off propriertary designs to make their compatible expansion module. Coleco countered with a $500 million anti-trust lawsuit that claimed Atari was trying to discourage retailers carrying Atari products from also carrying Coleco. They also charged that Atari created an unfair advantage in the industry when it bought part of Pac-man inventor Namco, and that it violated anti-trust laws as well. Atari's claims remained unproven and dismissed, and both sets of charges were settled out of court by April 1983 when Coleco agreed to pay royalties."

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    Quote Originally Posted by zektor
    Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.
    The previous poster already mentioned a point proving you wrong. There are also cases where the versions of the Mac were released with IBM PC compatibility. Heck, there is the entire IBM PC compatible industry, which let you run the other guy's games and applications. Before that, the IBM PC was IBM's closed platform, and it cost an arm and a leg to buy an IBM PC. Then Compaq cloned the hardware via reverse engineering, and created a PC that could run all of the games and applications that IBM's could. They really went down crashing and burning in lawsuits... NOT! A more modern example is Cedega (previously known as WineX), which is made to allow MS Windows games to be run on Linux.

    There would be no ground for lawsuits as long as compatibility was developed in a way that did not violate intellectual property law. Numerous cases where this has already been done demonstrate how it is profitable and good for the industry.

  8. #48
    Kirby (Level 13) zektor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagasian
    Quote Originally Posted by zektor
    Bottom line is that nobody is going to make their unit accept games without shaking hands with the other unit. I mean, think of it this way. YOU own a game company that makes System X. System X makes some great games and they sell well. Someone else makes a System Y, and proclaims it plays Sys Y games, AND it can play System X games.....and without your ok on the matter. Smell lawsuit and bankruptcy? Well, getting the ok to do things like this is what will always stop it from happening.
    The previous poster already mentioned a point proving you wrong. There are also cases where the versions of the Mac were released with IBM PC compatibility. Heck, there is the entire IBM PC compatible industry, which let you run the other guy's games and applications. Before that, the IBM PC was IBM's closed platform, and it cost an arm and a leg to buy an IBM PC. Then Compaq cloned the hardware via reverse engineering, and created a PC that could run all of the games and applications that IBM's could. They really went down crashing and burning in lawsuits... NOT! A more modern example is Cedega (previously known as WineX), which is made to allow MS Windows games to be run on Linux.

    There would be no ground for lawsuits as long as compatibility was developed in a way that did not violate intellectual property law. Numerous cases where this has already been done demonstrate how it is profitable and good for the industry.
    Yeah, but you are talking computers dude. For some odd reason, this type of situation has always been somewhat lax with personal computers.Now, dedicated gaming consoles are a much different story, whether you want to believe that or not. While it may sound great in theory that the Xbox, for example, would be able to play PS2 games...I do not think Sony would be too happy with that... no matter if just that ends up selling more of their titles. It's all about power, control, domination. Want to play game "X"? Well, you need our system to do it. And rightfully so. It is business as usual anyhow.

    I was actually thinking of the Colecovision expansion module when I posted "has not history taught us a lesson?". Nobody wants a legal battle nowadays.

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