Atari FlashBack 2

[Steve Woita]

Thanks for the info...Bummer that my voice is not working on the first batch of these things...Do you know if they've solved the problem? And if they did, when will the new batch be in stores? The only thing that I'm doing that's a bit weird in the game code is shuting down video to give me more CPU time to do my voice..I can't believe this stumped the hardware people !

Steve Woita
http://www.tinygames.com

[stonic]

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28509

It's not related to how you programmed it, Steve. The much-touted 100% compatible 2600-on-a-chip processor.... isn't. Design flaws in the TIA circuitry are to blame for the missing Quadrun voice, the missing footstep sounds of the robbers in Maze Craze, the missing "marching" sound in the Atari version of Millipede, etc.

There's also a flaw in how the chip handles HMOVEs, which affects a larger number of games (when using a modded system) - basically any game that relies on using HMOVE programming tricks. Some games have altered graphics (Missile Command) and some flat-out don't work.

At least 3 versions of the system exist. Regarding the original released version, the version of Millipede included is the Atari-made one instead of GCC’s (as indicated on the packaging). The 2nd version has the GCC version, although it's unplayable b/c it puts out too many scan lines for most NTSC sets - enough to be considered a PAL game! (which means the screen rolls). The 3rd version fixes the TIA/sound problem. A 4th version is planned (for outside the U.S., and inside the U.S. if demand requires it) to fix all the incompatibility issues with running certain carts (on a modified system). Supposedly Walmart got the first production-run units. Best Buy, QVC, and Target got the later versions. Keep in mind that (1) there's no way to tell which version you have until you take it home and plug it in, and (2) no recalls were done or planned.

It's a shame that once again what should have been a great little system was rushed out onto market with little or (more likely) no QA testing. It's one thing if it doesn't run certain actual carts (even though it was designed to. I guess having someone spend a few days to testing carts from all the major companies- such as Activision, Imagic, and ... ATARI -is too much to ask... ), but when games that come built-in don't even run correctly (most of the so-called new games are flat-out unplayable due to poor programmer), and you top it off with serious hardware design defects and a manual full of errors, you either have a case of a company that doesn't know what it's doing, or doesn't care. The kicker with this whole situation is, the "engineer" responsible for dropping the FB2 ball is already drumming up support for Flashback 3

[Nes]

And for the rest of us who have no idea what you're talking about, how about filling us in? (I know what a Flashback is. I have the first one)

[Lady Jaye]

From what I gather, Quadrun (one of the rarest Atari 2600 games, programmed by Steve Woita, who posted above) is included on the Flashback 2.0. However, there should be some voice in the game, and the Flashback 2 doesn't actually have it (and it also has sound issues with other games), at least not in the first rev. of the console. Also, according to Stonic's post, there seems to already be several revisions of the Flashback 2.0.

See also this thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/view...hlight=#809897

Thanks for the heads up, Stonic. I now know that I'll stick to my Atari 2600 Jr.

[Raedon]

Luckly I have an Atari 2600 Jr. I've always hoped the flashback 2 would work perfect but deep down I knew it would have some flaws similar to the flamiclones.

[rbudrick]

Even if you take the units apart and look at the insides there's no way to tell? Wouldn't the manufacturer itself need at least some way to tell them apart?

-Rob

[wgungfu]

Thanks for the info...Bummer that my voice is not working on the first batch of these things...Do you know if they've solved the problem? And if they did, when will the new batch be in stores? The only thing that I'm doing that's a bit weird in the game code is shuting down video to give me more CPU time to do my voice..I can't believe this stumped the hardware people !

Steve Woita
http://www.tinygames.com

Steve, only the initial Wallmart shipments that went out in August have that problem. (Walmart was the first to sign up, and consequently the first served). All the other locations (QVC, BestBuy, Target, EBGames, Gamestop, etc.) will have the correct sound. Walmart will also be getting the corrected units for their second shipment (after everyone else). Some AtariAge members already picked up some from the batch just coming out and reported an aok on the sound issue.

[GarrettCRW]

Well, it's a good thing I didn't break down and go to Wal-Mart to get one, then. :/

About the HMOVES: What are they, and will later runs of the Flashback 2.0 fix that issue?

[stonic]

Even if you take the units apart and look at the insides there's no way to tell? Wouldn't the manufacturer itself need at least some way to tell them apart?

The chip is probably marked differently, since it's a different run, but you can't exactly take it apart before you buy it, so that wouldn't be much help :/

Steve, only the initial Wallmart shipments that went out in August have that problem. (Walmart was the first to sign up, and consequently the first served). All the other locations (QVC, BestBuy, Target, EBGames, Gamestop, etc.) will have the correct sound....

Yeah, what I said

About the HMOVES: What are they, and will later runs of the Flashback 2.0 fix that issue?

A programming trick that allows for more objects to appear on the screen, the result of which creates a little black line on the left side of the screen.

[wgungfu]

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28509

It's not related to how you programmed it, Steve. The much-touted 100% compatible 2600-on-a-chip processor.... isn't. Design flaws in the TIA circuitry are to blame for the missing Quadrun voice, the missing footstep sounds of the robbers in Maze Craze, the missing "marching" sound in the Atari version of Millipede, etc.

It's not related to design flaws either, it was a fabrication issue thanks to them running the wrong version of a GDS file that was missing a sound channel element. The error was picked up and the correct GDS was supplied to the chip manufacturer. That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

There's also a flaw in how the chip handles HMOVEs, which affects a larger number of games (when using a modded system) - basically any game that relies on using HMOVE programming tricks. Some games have altered graphics (Missile Command) and some flat-out don't work.

That "flaw" occured when some of the engineers in the Hong Kong office (the chips are fabricated and the system manufactured in that region) made an unauthorized cosmetic fix that they thought would "improve" the original chip designs. Again, none of these problems were in the original proto unit or the demo/review units that were shown at E3 and lent out for reviews afterwords.

At least 3 versions of the system exist. Regarding the original released version, the version of Millipede included is the Atari-made one instead of GCC’s (as indicated on the packaging). The 2nd version has the GCC version, although it's unplayable b/c it puts out too many scan lines for most NTSC sets - enough to be considered a PAL game! (which means the screen rolls).

Actually, just 1 version with two different sets of rom/menu (Gizmo) chips. Both have the same main chip and hardware with the sound problem. The one hitting all the other stores now is the actual 2nd version (with the fixed sound problems).

The 3rd version fixes the TIA/sound problem. A 4th version is planned (for outside the U.S., and inside the U.S. if demand requires it) to fix all the incompatibility issues with running certain carts (on a modified system).

Units manufactured for overseas (Europe, Pan-Asia) and the 2nd fill orders for the US will have all the incompatibility issues corrected. These issues were discovered 4 or so weeks after the sound issue was addressed (see above about the Hong Kong office) and fixed as well. The next die of the chips in the next 500K batch will have more compatibility in 06' runs.

Supposedly Walmart got the first production-run units. Best Buy, QVC, and Target got the later versions. Keep in mind that (1) there's no way to tell which version you have until you take it home and plug it in, and (2) no recalls were done or planned.

Not supposedly, only Walmart got the first-run sound erred shipments because they were the first to sign up. All the units arriving at Best Buy, QVC, Target, EB, etc. are all the 2nd run.

It's a shame that once again what should have been a great little system was rushed out onto market with little or (more likely) no QA testing. It's one thing if it doesn't run certain actual carts........ a manual full of errors...... The kicker with this whole situation is, the "engineer" responsible for dropping the FB2 ball is already drumming up support for Flashback 3

With all do respect, all Atari Inc. management cared about was the unit supporting the 40 included games. Modding it to run carts voids the warranty - so they don't care about support other games. On the other hand, the proto system designed by the "engineer" (and the early 10 game review system I had) ran all the games flawlessly. The problems are a fabrication problem - end of story. This "engineer" that supposedly "dropped the ball" is actually the one that is pushing to make sure the revisions are done when management could really care less because the average consumer isn't going to know the difference. Secondly, the errors in the packed in manual were from the graphic arts/layout company that was used. They couldn't keep manual revisions straight for some reason (even though they were clearly labeled in the file names) and submitted a mishmash of revisions to the printer.

[john_soper]

Good points Wgungfu, but between the Quadrun issue, cart imcompatibility, poorly programmed new games, screwed up manual, the Flashback I, and Atari's stock price; it's hard to be very impressed with the company.

My last job was in a firm making semiconductor chips and our screwups drove some customers away and led others to demand increased accountability methods. No one ever cared about our excuses.

But I still say it's worth the price just for the joysticks. And River Raid and Yar's Revenge are still a blast.

[Sothy]

Ill pick one up.

Hey woita wanna hook me up with a quadrun cart?

[stonic]

It's not related to design flaws either, it was a fabrication issue thanks to them running the wrong version of a GDS file that was missing a sound channel element. The error was picked up and the correct GDS was supplied to the chip manufacturer. That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

Ok, *production* flaws then... although that doesn't account for all the problems.

That "flaw" occured when some of the engineers in the Hong Kong office (the chips are fabricated and the system manufactured in that region) made an unauthorized cosmetic fix that they thought would "improve" the original chip designs. Again, none of these problems were in the original proto unit or the demo/review units that were shown at E3 and lent out for reviews afterwords.

Are you serious?! I've never heard of something like that happening before. How exactly can ANY production firm do somthing like this? Is there a clause in the contract that says "Do whatever the hell you want, regardless of what we ask for"? Is there even a contract?? Or is there nothing more than a verbal agreement or gentleman's handshake? Wow...

Actually, just 1 version with two different sets of rom/menu (Gizmo) chips. Both have the same main chip and hardware with the sound problem. The one hitting all the other stores now is the actual 2nd version (with the fixed sound problems).

From a game player's POV, the 2 different rom sets are 2 different systems; 3 total. Which means we're up to #4 now, in an effort to get it right.

Supposedly Walmart got the first production-run units.
Not supposedly, only Walmart got the first-run sound erred shipments because they were the first to sign up. All the units arriving at Best Buy, QVC, Target, EB, etc. are all the 2nd run.

Well, you're either privvy to inside-info, or you're an employee of Atari. Since I'm neither, I stated 'supposedly'.

With all do respect, all Atari Inc. management cared about was the unit supporting the 40 included games. Modding it to run carts voids the warranty - so they don't care about support other games.

With all due respect to you, it doesn't seem like they care much about their customers either. Whatever the reason(s)/excuses for the problems, dumping flawed product on consumers is a pretty damn lousy thing to do. And this company has done it more than once. What was the point of touting the fact that the FB2 was to have a 100% 2600-compatible chipset if it was only intended to run 40 games? Obviously *someone* in upper management gave the ok for someone to design it so that it was possible, and whoever it was didn't bother to test their design (or they did and realized that there were problems). But who cares, right? Because the only way they'll know is if they mod their system, which immediately voids the warranty. Nice little way to cover themselves, doncha think?

On the other hand, the proto system designed by the "engineer" (and the early 10 game review system I had) ran all the games flawlessly.

How wonderful for you. However, that means nothing to everyone who bought yet another flawed system...

The problems are a fabrication problem - end of story. This "engineer" that supposedly "dropped the ball" is actually the one that is pushing to make sure the revisions are done when management could really care less because the average consumer isn't going to know the difference. Secondly, the errors in the packed in manual were from the graphic arts/layout company that was used. They couldn't keep manual revisions straight for some reason (even though they were clearly labeled in the file names) and submitted a mishmash of revisions to the printer.

The producton problems aren't the "end" of it. Everyone dropped the ball. The graphic arts/layout company weren't the only ones that couldn't keep it straight. There's some serious QA issues going on here, not to mention a production facitlity that pretty much does what it wants. The end result is- once again people are getting screwed, and what do they get? A replacement system? A refund? A lousy coupon? No. They get the opportunity to buy a Flashback 3, at the same price as everyone else (and I gotta say I'm a little surprised that there's even going to be another one), and hope *this* time everyone involved gets it right. What a joke.

If there's any hope for that company, they'll make sure that everyone responsible for Flashback 1 and 2 will have nothing to do with 3. Otherwise there will only be more problems...

[Leo_A]

Don't listen to him, the Flashback 2 is a very good product. 30 dollars well spent.

[Flojomojo]

The producton problems aren't the "end" of it. Everyone dropped the ball. The graphic arts/layout company weren't the only ones that couldn't keep it straight. There's some serious QA issues going on here, not to mention a production facitlity that pretty much does what it wants. The end result is- once again people are getting screwed, and what do they get? A replacement system? A refund? A lousy coupon? No. They get the opportunity to buy a Flashback 3, at the same price as everyone else (and I gotta say I'm a little surprised that there's even going to be another one), and hope *this* time everyone involved gets it right. What a joke.

It's a $30 toy and it plays forty different games, some of which are impossible to find elsewhere. It plays more than thirty of them very well. Some of the new games aren't that great, but there's certainly enough value elsewhere in the package. The joysticks alone are worth thirty bucks. The manual sucks, that's true, but there's a somewhat better version online, and none of these games really suffer because of poor documentation.

The only other example of a plug and play hardware re-creation coming even close to the FB2 quality is the Commodore 64 stick with 30 embedded games. This collection has support for 2 players, better controls, and a more memorable lineup.

Why the hatred?

[video_game_addict]

I haven't bought one yet, because of the flaws in the first runs that were hitting Walmart, but I do plan on picking one up eventually. I wish they had spent a little more time on the homebrews they threw on it thought, and made those a little better. From what I've seen & read on the forums they really didn't turn out too well. I own all the relased games that are on it, so there's no real reason for me to jump out there and buy one yet. But I do want to at least try those new games eventually. I may wait till the price drops before I pick one up.

[stonic]

It's a $30 toy and it plays forty different games, some of which are impossible to find elsewhere.

The only ones "impossible" to find are the new titles (Lunar Lander, Caverns of Mars, Pong, and all the hacks), which is no biggie since most of them don't work right anyway.
And where are you getting 40 different games? Let's recap what games are included:

3-D Tic Tac Toe
Adventure
Adventure II (hack of Adventure)
Aquaventure (unreleased prototype)
Asteroids
Asteroids Deluxe (hack of Asteroids)
Atari Climber (homebrew)
Battlezone
Breakout (hidden bonus game)
Caverns of Mars (homebrew)
Centipede
Combat
Combat Two (unreleased prototype)
Dodge 'Em
Fatal Run
Frog Pong (unreleased prototype)
Hangman
Haunted House
Human Cannonball
Lunar Lander (homebrew)
Maze Craze
Millipede
Missile Command
Off The Wall
Outlaw
Pitfall (Activision title)
Pong (homebrew)
Quadrun
Radar Lock
Return to Haunted House (hack of Adventure)
River Raid (Activision title)
Saboteur (unreleased prototype)
Save Mary (unreleased prototype)
Secret Quest
Space Duel (hack of Asteroids)
Space War
Video Checkers
Video Chess
Warlords (hidden bonus game)
Wizard (unreleased prototype)
Yars' Return (hack of Yars' Revenge)
Yars' Revenge

Thos in green are truly classic, memorable titles for that system; A+ games, if you will (although 2 of them are made by Activision. Didn't Activision include these on their *own* TV system already??). Those in red are at the opposite end of that spectrum. The rest are either late-release titles (in blue), prototypes, homebrews, or hacks.

The whole list is so hit-and-(mostly)miss. FIrst off, the hacks should never have been included. Centipede and Millipede are great games, but why do we need both here? So at most there's 34 *different* games (36 if you count the 2 bonus hidden games, which most folks will probably never see). Including games primarily designed for 2-players (Combat Two, Frog Pond, Space War) doesn't make much sense either. I suppose an arguement can be made as to why games like Tic Tac Toe and Video Checkers are included, but I personally don't remember playing them very much (and Video Chess runs so slowly, nobody would waste time trying to play it these days...). When you factor in what games are fun to play, maybe half the games on this list will see repeat play by owners (Human Cannonball was a running joke 'back in the day'. And others like Hangman and Wizard? Yeah, ok). And yet perhaps the biggest 2600 title - Space Invaders - is nowhere to be found. How many revamped versions of Space Invaders have we seen over the years (for nearly every system out there)? I doubt anyone at Atari even bothered to try and get the rights to include it :/

It plays more than thirty of them very well.

How is it acceptable that 1/4th of them don't? Maybe that's fine for you, but I'd expect ALL of them to work

Some of the new games aren't that great, but there's certainly enough value elsewhere in the package. The joysticks alone are worth thirty bucks. The manual sucks, that's true, but there's a somewhat better version online, and none of these games really suffer because of poor documentation.

Here's a LINK to the online manual.

The only other example of a plug and play hardware re-creation coming even close to the FB2 quality is the Commodore 64 stick with 30 embedded games. This collection has support for 2 players, better controls, and a more memorable lineup.
Why the hatred?

The CDTV is an excellent system- easily the best as far as emulation quality goes. But for $30, you can pick up Jakks Activision 10-in-1, Atari's 10-in-1, and Atari's 13-in-1 paddle TV systems.

Oh yeah, and ALL the games work.

It's not hatred, it's complete and utter disappointment.
Especially in light of the craptastic Flashback 1.

Don't listen to him, the Flashback 2 is a very good product. 30 dollars well spent.

Your comments in this thread speak for themselves, don't they?:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58635

Not that your biased or anything:

I can't really go into details for various reasons. Sum it up by saying you're wrong, you will be in for a pleasant surprise with this product.

You can go ahead and buy them all up for Christmas presents this year. I'll wait until they hit the bargain bins, which should be a few months from now.

Reading that thread again, I forgot about some of the misinformation in the initial marketing. Seems thing thing has been hit-and-miss since day one :/ I think a few of you need to take those rose-tinted Wayfarer's off for a bit :P

[NoahsMyBro]

1) I don't have one yet - I told my wife about the unit when it first hit QVC and Wal-Mart. She very unsubtly suggested I not run right out and get one, as there was always the possibility I'd get one from *somebody* for Hanukah. I made sure she knows to avoid the WalMart units due to the bugs. SO, I can't speak with first-hand knowledge about the system.

2) You've listed the games, and proceeded to make many judgements about them and the system. You framed your judgements as FACTs. While many people may agree with many game assesments, others might not. Case in point, you single out Human Cannonball as a stinker. I remember thinking it looked like a piece of crap when it was current. Against my urging, my younger brother got it (new), and once we took it home I enjoyed it a lot. Youo can't apply your OPINIONS to the list of games, and then declare as fact that only a certain percentage of the games are of any worth. The system has a certain number of games. Whether or not you like or dislike a percentage has no bearing.

3) You cite some as homebrews or hacks. This doesn't seem all that relevant to me either. For one, I've played many homebrews, and proudly own many homebrews. In my opinion, some are pretty bad (Alfred Challenge comes to mind), some are good, but not great (Pick Up), while some are as good as anything ever produced by any company of any size (Thrust+, Koffi, SCSIcide). Just because a game is a homebrew doesn't automatically mean it is of lower quality. Often, the homebrew author actually cared more about producing something good, and it shows in the final product. AND, I don't think Adventure 2 is a hack - I thought it was a different game, basically a stripped down version of Ron L's 5200 Adventure 2. Are you sure it's just a hack of Adventure? (And as I understand the usage, a hack means the graphics/sound may have been altered, but the underlying game is the same as the original.)

I thought the previous Flashback was pretty much a slap in the face, and I've thought most, if not all, of the Plug'N'Play systems so far have been mediocre at best. But this Flashback 2 unit definitely looks to me like the company is finally making an effort to do things right, and I'm looking forward to getting one. AND I'm looking forward to adding a cartridge port to mine.

[Flack]

That's what went out in the initial Walmart batch because management didn'd deem it enough of a problem for the average consumer, and for collectors they felt it raised the collectibility factor.

Are you telling me I now have a faulty Flashback 2 (I bought mine at vgXpo in Dallas, before Wal-Mart even got theirs) because somebody thought a buggy system would be more collectable?

If anyone would like to trade a working one for my highly collectable bugged system, let me know.

[omnedon]

I'll stick with refurbished, AV modded original hardware. It runs everything. Easier to get and to do, than hacking up an FB2.

Neat toy, but these compatibility issues, plus you have to CUT a HOLE in it for a cart slot, yeeeesh.

I applaud the efforts behind it. Thing is success or falure of something like this is not determined by hard core collectors like us. It's Mom and Pop shopping for Christmas gifts that will make or break it.

Can;t please everybody. I have no hate on this FB2, but I won't buy one.