Atari FlashBack 2

[omnedon]

I'll stick with refurbished, AV modded original hardware. It runs everything. Easier to get and to do, than hacking up an FB2.

Neat toy, but these compatibility issues, plus you have to CUT a HOLE in it for a cart slot, yeeeesh.

I applaud the efforts behind it. Thing is success or falure of something like this is not determined by hard core collectors like us. It's Mom and Pop shopping for Christmas gifts that will make or break it.

Can't please everybody. I have no hate on this FB2, but I won't buy one.

[Jagasian]

I think the main problem is when something is sold as a reproduction of a classic console and it has flaws that make it incompatible with games for that system. I really think that Messiah is making a mistake with their NES reproduction. They are keeping a tight lip about compatibility issues, which I am sure they know of, as it isn't hard to try out a handful of NES games with the system... let alone do professional testing of every commercial NES and Famicom game on the system.

You have to give the Flashback guys credit for one thing: they improve their system with each release. First there was the FB1, which was based on a NOAC. Then there was the multiple revisions of the FB2, each better than the last.

I just wish that people would stop being misleading about the technical aspects of the hardware that they are selling. For those that really care, get yourself a refurbished original, and wait until there are good unbiased reviews of these clones before you make a final decision on purchasing one.

[Cafeman]

I got my FB2 (original run version) for free. I actually giggled when I took it out of the box and felt the sticks.

Steve, "Adventure II" is indeed a hack of Adventure. The original kernel and logic was used but modified as necessary, but the memory was bumped up to at least 8K (I'm not 100% sure of the exact ROM size since I didn't code it). I think its a nice semi-sequel to the original ... the maze is complicated enough that I get lost (it isn't the exact same as my 5200 version,which is probably closer to 64K in size due to the compression I'm using.). I didn't code any of the FB2 Adventure II though.

A couple people I know bought them from QVC. They noticed the screen rolls on some hacks / homebrews but overall they all think it was well worth the money. With River Raid, Adventure, Yars Revenge, Asteroids and some others, the FB2 is sure to please folks this season. One friend said he wished "E.T." had been on the FB2 ... "god I loved that game", he said, I couldn't believe it.

[stonic]

2) You've listed the games, and proceeded to make many judgements about them and the system. You framed your judgements as FACTs...

I pointed out titles that were not big sellers by any means, and including unreleased games and protos (although 'cool') isn't 'smart' business (and honestly, have you played games like Wizard or Combat Two for any length of time. There's a reason unreleased games are unreleased- one being that they're NOT fun...). If I had only 40 titles to choose from, I can think of a helluva lot better or more popular games to include besides ones like Wizard or Human Cannonball - games that your average consumer likely would be familiar with. As bad as Pac-Man is, I'd still expect to see it included; as much as I like games like Star Ship and Slot Racers, I'd be shocked if they were included.

3) You cite some as homebrews or hacks. This doesn't seem all that relevant to me either.

I don't have a problem with homebrew titles, but considering your average buyer isn't going to recognize any of them, 1 or 2 would have been plenty here. I just can't understand that out of all the great homebrews out there (and there's plenty), the only known/credible title included was Climber. Why not release the new hacks and homebrews online beforehand and let the community of dedicated players still out there test them, offer suggestions for improvements, etc. - take advantage of all that invaluable experience. Talk about an untapped resource. What a waste.

Same with hacks (again, there's plenty of quality hacks out there, but they choose to go with a bunch of unknown/untested ones), but IMO hacks have no place on a product like this. If it contained a lot more games, then fine- sprinkle a few in. That's not the case here, so again with only 40 titles to choose from, even 1 would have been 1 too many.

AND, I don't think Adventure 2 is a hack - I thought it was a different game, basically a stripped down version of Ron L's 5200 Adventure 2. Are you sure it's just a hack of Adventure? (And as I understand the usage, a hack means the graphics/sound may have been altered, but the underlying game is the same as the original.)

No, I'm not 100% sure, but from screen shots I've seen of it I'd be very suprised if it didn't contain a fair amount of the original code...

I'm looking forward to adding a cartridge port to mine.

Great! Go for it. Personally I'm siding with omnedon on this one. If it worked as promised, I'd have been more than happy to support the company (and I would have had a modded one by now), but I can't see wasting time to do it if it's not going to work correctly.

Have no fear though, I'm sure they'll sell truckloads of em, enough to justify making a FB3...

[Leo_A]

"The CDTV is an excellent system- easily the best as far as emulation quality goes. But for $30, you can pick up Jakks Activision 10-in-1, Atari's 10-in-1, and Atari's 13-in-1 paddle TV systems.

Oh yeah, and ALL the games work."

That's stretching things a bit. I fired up the Atari 10-in-1 stick the other night and played "Pong". Started the game, never moved, won 21-0 against the AI (Never moving my paddle) when the ball just froze (Game over?) though I was able to move my paddle when I tried after. Oh and the paddle can wrap around the screen too, can the original do that? (I never wasted my time on it on any of these collections since I need paddles to enjoy it, did Video Olympics for the 2600 allow the paddle to wrap around the screen?)

They work, but they're very poor imitations of the originals except for the paddle system.

[stonic]

Does Jakks claim that it's 100% accurate?


No. So... what's your point?

[Leo_A]

That the games suck on it is what I claim. Most of the included Flashback 2 titles work perfectly, virtually all of the titles that have issues result from programming errors (Junk like Space Duel), besides a couple sound issues (Maze Craze & Quadrun), and a Missile Command graphic error.

Sounds like your issue is with the lineup of games included on the system more than anything. It does a very good job of running 2600 games. And it probably would be perfect if it wasn't tampered with beforehand and produced like it was intended as several reports from individuals that have playtested prerelease versions have testified. And where has Atari ever claimed that it would run 2600 games perfectly?

What is your point I'm curious though. It does a very good job at what it was intended for. For 30 dollars it's a steal. It's as good as any of these retro things have been, the Jakks stuff suck, the C64 stick is nice but the hardware quality sucks, these various classic gaming collections all have their faults as well (Namco 50th Anniversary, Activision Anthology, etc.).

And best of all, the issues it has are being corrected.

[stonic]

That the games suck on it is what I claim. Most of the included Flashback 2 titles work perfectly, virtually all of the titles that have issues result from programming errors (Junk like Space Duel), besides a couple sound issues (Maze Craze & Quadrun), and a Missile Command graphic error.

The same could be said of Jakks systems And it's not just Missile Command with graphics problems. EVERY game that uses HMOVE (i.e. any game that shows a thin black line on the left side of the screen) is affected (to some degree).

Sounds like your issue is with the lineup of games included on the system more than anything. It does a very good job of running 2600 games. And it probably would be perfect if it wasn't tampered with beforehand and produced like it was intended as several reports from individuals that have playtested prerelease versions have testified.

The line-up is pretty weak overall, but my main gripe with it is simple - it DOESN'T WORK RIGHT! About the only thing I can praise about it are the controllers, but even if they were lousy, you can at least use your own. So they got 1 thing right

And where has Atari ever claimed that it would run 2600 games perfectly?

I believe the very person(s) involved with stated that from day 1. Comments like "2600-on-a-chip" and "100% emulation" were thrown around more than once.

What is your point I'm curious though. It does a very good job at what it was intended for. For 30 dollars it's a steal. It's as good as any of these retro things have been, the Jakks stuff suck, the C64 stick is nice but the hardware quality sucks, these various classic gaming collections all have their faults as well (Namco 50th Anniversary, Activision Anthology, etc.).

With FB2, some of the games are so unstable that the screen rolls constantly, making them completely unplayable. Big difference between that and a game that "sucks".

And best of all, the issues it has are being corrected.

Yeah.. with version 4. Maybe. And if they ever get it right, I'll buy one (and give all the new games a thorough shake-down). Fair enough?

[Leo_A]

I didn't really consider the cosmetic unauthorized fix to the scan lines a problem even though I didn't like it. But I'm not going to argue since I was disappointed with it too even though it didn't affect the playability of any of the titles.

I don't like the lineup much myself, but it plays the included 2600 games pretty accurately. Don't get me started on the homebrews though, I'm not about to defend stuff like Yar's Return (Though if you check out http://feeds.feedburner.com/BobbyBlackwolfShow?m=12 about 24 minutes in it will shed some light on the issue.

"I believe the very person(s) involved with stated that from day 1. Comments like "2600-on-a-chip" and "100% emulation" were thrown around more than once. "

Because as far as has been stated, it was until unauthorized changes were made in Asia before entering production. So it's understandable and I'm sure they were disappointed that it ended up not being that way.

"With FB2, some of the games are so unstable that the screen rolls constantly, making them completely unplayable. Big difference between that and a game that "sucks" "

Which games? The GCC Millipede is due to the number of scan lines and not the FB2 (Though why they'd include something they knew wouldn't work on NTSC televisions is beyond me, probably why they substituded the Atari Millipede in pretty quickly). The rest as far as I've experienced have been with the hacks/homebrews so I'd write those off as programming errors as well. Though 2600 hardware has always been like this, not uncommon for certain titles to roll in certain 2600 systems with the right television sets.

"Yeah.. with version 4. Maybe. And if they ever get it right, I'll buy one (and give all the new games a thorough shake-down). Fair enough?"

I think you'll be pleased when you do. While it certainly has it's issues (Such as the sucky instruction manual), overall it's a pretty well done product. Certainly a leap head of the majorty of these plug & play TV games that have made it to market so far.

[stonic]

I didn't really consider the cosmetic unauthorized fix to the scan lines a problem even though I didn't like it. But I'm not going to argue since I was disappointed with it too even though it didn't affect the playability of any of the titles.

It doesn't (which may have played a part in what titles were chosen) but it certainly does on a modded system, which it was designed to be.

I don't like the lineup much myself, but it plays the included 2600 games pretty accurately. Don't get me started on the homebrews though, I'm not about to defend stuff like Yar's Return (Though if you check out http://feeds.feedburner.com/BobbyBlackwolfShow?m=12 about 24 minutes in it will shed some light on the issue.

Caverns of Mars has some problems as well (I mentioned this in an earlier post). As for Yars' Return, I asked HSW- the creator of Yars' Revenge- on whether or not he had anything to do with it:

"I had nothing to do with this whatsoever. In fact, this so lacks creativity that they could only use the same graphics and color scheme? Jesus! This looks pretty absurd. I do have a design for another Yars, but it is an innovation and has nothing to do with what is being portrayed here."

There you have it. Yet another wasted opportunity by the FB team. For years HSW has publicly stated many times that he's always had an idea on how to do a sequel to Yars. Here's an idea- if you want to do one that badly, and for a product like FB2, why not ASK the guy who created it?

Which games? The GCC Millipede is due to the number of scan lines and not the FB2 (Though why they'd include something they knew wouldn't work on NTSC televisions is beyond me, probably why they substituded the Atari Millipede in pretty quickly).

Why? Simple - little or no play-testing. But you have it the other way around. The GCC version should have been on there originally, as indicated by the packaging (instead the Atari version was included in Rev 1. Rev 2 and 3 have the GCC version.) So first they had the wrong version, and then they put the right version on, except it doesn't work right (b/c it's an unreleased prototype, which they never bothered to test).

The rest as far as I've experienced have been with the hacks/homebrews so I'd write those off as programming errors as well. Though 2600 hardware has always been like this, not uncommon for certain titles to roll in certain 2600 systems with the right television sets.

If you have an NTSC cart that rolls on an NTSC TV, it's b/c of sloppy programming - NOT the hardware. Naturally, any PAL cart will roll on an NTSC TV, unless the TV is a newer model that can automatically compensate for it.

Unless someone's completely biased, it's painfully obvious that this thing was not adequately play-tested. If it was, all these problems would have been caught and fixed in Rev 2, not 3 or 4 or however many it will take. The next chip rev isn't going to fix the screen rolling problems some games have, and by now GCC Millipede and Caverns of Mars should have either been fixed or replaced. If not, the system (as it's sold - unmodded) will never work 100% for everyone.

[stonic]

FYI, a new version of Caverns of Mars was done by a different programmer - John W. Champeau (the former founder of CHAMProgramming)


(original FB2 version)


(Champeau's version)

Guess Atari finally agreed that their version "for sucks" and plan to replace the current version with the new one in the next FB2 version.

Also worth noting - the person involved with designing the FB2 also found + released the GCC's Millipede ROM. Things that make ya go 'hmmmmm'

[rbudrick]

Also worth noting - the person involved with designing the FB2 also found + released the GCC's Millipede ROM. Things that make ya go 'hmmmmm'

Not sure what you mean? Found and released? In what way do you mean?

-Rob

[Leo_A]

I assume he's talking about Curt Vendel. And I'm not sure what's strange about it. The guy seems to be the expert when it comes to Atari history, and has done more research and saved more pieces of Atari's history than anyone I imagine. And he has technical skills as well. Easy to see why Atari has gone to him to work on projects like the Flashback 2.

There were two 2600 Centipedes produced. Atari produced a version which they ended up selling, and GCC produced a version hoping Atari would release it. Don't know the specifics of it, maybe GCC wasn't aware Atari was producing a version themselves, or they thought they could do it better and hoped Atari would pick it up.

[stonic]

I assume he's talking about Curt Vendel. And I'm not sure what's strange about it. The guy seems to be the expert when it comes to Atari history, and has done more research and saved more pieces of Atari's history than anyone I imagine. And he has technical skills as well. Easy to see why Atari has gone to him to work on projects like the Flashback 2.

Your opinion.

He found a GCC Millipede proto and released it.
He had GCC Millipede proto included on the Flashback 2
GCC doesn't work correctly on FB2 b/c it's a PAL game.

An expert on Atari history he may be.
An expert on hardware design and software he is not.

[Great Hierophant]

The FB2 has enough solid games and a very good design, well worth $30 and a far, far better product than any other X-in-1 device. It is not a perfect product by any means, but the errors are rather minor and were unintended. Atari had no control over the CAD design or the HK fellow who thought the HMOVE design could stand some improvement. Curt Vendel probably forgot about the "too-many scanlines issue" for Millipede. It can be easily overlooked, especially if your TV is unusually accomodating with scanlines. (I had an NTSC 13" TV/VCR that could display my PAL DVDs natively at 525i, no color of course.)

However, Atari never marked this as a 2600 replacement, but as a high class novelty product. To use it as a 2600 replacement, you have to solder in a cartridge port. According to the chip's designers, the chip they designed was as perfect as it gets (I wonder if it could do Cosmic Ark and Solaris correctly) but thanks to issues beyond their control, the released product ends up as something less than perfect. If the one or more of the games don't work perfectly, it was unintentional. Of course, if you had a real problem, you could probably demand that Atari replace the device with a working one.

[Leo_A]

You'll find a wide variation in scanlines on 2600 titles. Doesn't necessarily make it PAL, and there are titles considered NTSC that can be problematic on NTSC televisions.

[Leo_A]

Oh and I'm not claiming Millipede isn't PAL, believe it is. Just wanted to throw that out there.

If Ubisoft can release a game that can't work on a good number of televisions, its not surprising a mistake could've been made on the FB2. A lot of modern tv's can handle GCC Millipede just fine.

And obviously they realized their error early on, a very small percentage of owners have the GCC Millipede. Don't remember the exacts of the AA poll I'm using to back this up, but it was something like 30-2 last time I checked.

[stonic]

You'll find a wide variation in scanlines on 2600 titles.

The ideal # of scan lines for NTSC is 262; PAL is 312. Here's a (incomplete) list of VCS titles and the # of lines they have. Most of them do actually have that exact # or one very close to it.

You'll see that GCC Millipede has 295, which makes it PAL. Not even close.

... and there are titles considered NTSC that can be problematic on NTSC televisions.

That is true. The gray area seems to be between 280 and 290. I'm kinda surprised that an NTSC version hasn't been found by now...

[stonic]

If anyone was curious to see just how glitchy and unplayable some of the new games are, here's your chance to see for yourself:



I can't even get Yars' Return to run (either on an emulator or a real system).

The latest version of the FB2 is headed to Walmarts, but don't look for fixed versions of these games on it, b/c they weren't included. It should however be fully compatible with all games now. Should....

[DEBRO]

I can't even get Yars' Return to run (either on an emulator or a real system).

I don't know if this will help you but Yar's Return is 8K and uses the SARA chip.