Used game business is out of control and will kill our hobby

[Anthony1]

I was going to post this in the "used game sales = piracy?" thread, but I didn't want to hijack dudes thread. My topic has nothing to do with piracy, so I didn't want to get people off topic in that one.


Anyways, I just wanted to comment on the sub-industry that has sprung up with the buying and selling of used games and hardware. It's really starting to get out of freaking control. Every retailer that is even remotely connected with video games is either trying to start their own trade in and resell business, or already has. Blockbuster, GameCrazy, GameStop, EBgames, Software ETC, Best Buy and on and on. Businesses that never would have dared considered getting into the business of buying used games from their customers and reselling them are now making plans to enter the market.


Why?


Because the profit margins are off the charts. That's why. Unfortunately, the great unwashed don't really take into consideration what their games and systems are really worth, so they accept pennies on the dollar in terms of trade in values. People just find it easy and convienent to walk into a GameStop with a handfull of used games, and trade those in towards a discount of the latest new game to hit the scenes.


The thing is......I think in the long term, this is going to absolutely kill our industry. You can already see what this is doing to the prices of new games for current gen systems. Very few PS2 and XBOX 1 games are going to retail with a $49.99 price. Only the biggest franchises can get away with asking for $49.99 per game. And the ones that do command $49.99 per game, only do for a short period of time. There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely. I really think that this is byproduct of the used game trade. There are so many used games available in the marketplace, that consumers don't need to buy brand new games for the big bucks anymore. Little Johnny is just as happy playing a used version of Jak III as he would a brand new one. The kid just wants to play the damn game, and the parent just wants to get it as cheap as possible.


Used isn't a bad word anymore. How many kids received "preowned" video games as Xmas gifts this season? Probably more than at any other time in History. It used to be a very embarrasing thing to buy somebody a used game, but now when little Timmy rips open the package and finds a "preowned" version of Mario Kart Double Dash, little Timmy doesn't care. It says Blockbuster on it, and yes, it's a a used game, but it's now normal to receive something like that as a gift.


In the old days, people bought their games for $49.99 each (or more), and these people just ended up keeping these games for a very long time. People had libraries of games for various systems. They never sold them, or traded them in. Why? Cause they never really thought about it. But now, they can't help but think about it. It's everywhere. Everywhere they go they see places giving money or store credit for used games or DVD's. So now, you have people that no longer have more than a few games in their library of games, and those few games won't be there long. Soon they will be traded in for virtually nothing, and the cycle will continue.



All of this is great for the "cheap ass gamer" that just wants to get their hands on whatever game for cheap. Take me for instance. I just bought Halo 2 from blockbuster for $6.99. I repeat..... I just bought Halo 2 from blockbuster for $6.99!!!!! Can you freaking believe that? Sure, it's a preowned copy, but at that price who gives a rats ass? But the problem is, that while this might be very nice for gamers out there in the short term (more games for less money), in the long term, the effects that this is going to have on every facet of our industry is going to be catastrophic. While I'm extremely happy to be able to get games like Halo 2 for $6.99, I know that the long term ramifications of this is very bad for an industry that I love.


Sony was talking awhile back about having games that would "marry" to a single video game system. Thus, not working on anybody elses system, therefore, you couldn't rent the game, or sell it to somebody else. Each person that wants to play the game, would have to buy it from a retail establishment. I was among the people that cried bloody murder when I first heard about this idea from Sony, but to be totally honest, this kind of tactic might actually save our industry in the long term. It would be very painfull to consumers in the short term, but in the long term it would actually help our industry and keep our industry vibrant. It would ensure the future of our industry.

I know that alot of you are going to say, "Dude, you lost me when you brought up that Sony thing. There is no circumstance where that would actually help our indsutry", but it's about the only thing that could turn the tide of this used game trade that is going to decimate all of the smaller publishers and developers. If you only want to be able to pick from games that are released from about 10 different Mega publishers, then by all means, let the used game trade continue like normal. But I can guarantee you one thing. Games like Psyconauts and Shadow of the Colossus will never be seen again. Instead you will be playing Tony Hawk 25 - The Baltic Wastelands

[Leo_A]

"The thing is......I think in the long term, this is going to absolutely kill our industry. You can already see what this is doing to the prices of new games for current gen systems. Very few PS2 and XBOX 1 games are going to retail with a $49.99 price."

Quite a few games are still being released at a 50$ price point. And its common for games released near the end of a systems life to not be 50$. And many of the games not being released at 50$ wouldn't of been released at that price a few years ago anyways because they're small time budget releases.

". There are so many bargain basement games out there, that it's causing everybody to have to lower their prices prematurely."

Prove it

"Little Johnny is just as happy playing a used version of Jak III as he would a brand new one. The kid just wants to play the damn game, and the parent just wants to get it as cheap as possible."

No different than 25 years ago than today.

" but now when little Timmy rips open the package and finds a "preowned" version of Mario Kart Double Dash, little Timmy doesn't care. It says Blockbuster on it, and yes, it's a a used game, but it's now normal to receive something like that as a gift."

Who cares, I got the exact thing for a gift this year and was pleased because I got the demo disc and it didn't cost 50$ for a game that should've saw a price reduction a long time ago in my opinion.

"In the old days, people bought their games for $49.99 each (or more), and these people just ended up keeping these games for a very long time. People had libraries of games for various systems. They never sold them, or traded them in. Why?"

Nonesense, people have been trading in their systems and games after fairly short amounts since the beginning. It's just been the past decade that this has entered the retail environment thanks to companies like EB, Funcoland, GameStop, etc.

"Sony was talking awhile back about having games that would "marry" to a single video game system. Thus, not working on anybody elses system, therefore, you couldn't rent the game, or sell it to somebody else. "

Prove it, only people that like to speculate like yourself ever saw that from what I witnessed. Sony filed a patent, and then people like yourself decided Sony must've meant that.

"but it's about the only thing that could turn the tide of this used game trade that is going to decimate all of the smaller publishers and developers."

Nonesense, the industry is as healthy as its ever been. Slower sales can be easily explained as people waiting for next generation consoles, has happened at the end of every generation. If anything is going to hurt them, it's the increased cost of development due to the power of these systems today.

"But I can guarantee you one thing. Games like Psyconauts and Shadow of the Colossus will never be seen again. "

As long as theres a market for them (As has been proven I'd say judging from sales of Shadow of the Colossus for starters), I guarantee we'll see the likes of them again.

Typical gloom and doom non RGB Anthony1 post.

[ozyr]

I'll have to aggree with Leo. I don't really don't see used games hurting anything. Heck, used furnature hasn't ruined the new furnature stores, video rentals don't stop people from buying new (I do this).

Of course, I am open enough to respect your opinion, and tha that is fine. Just don't try being so 'pushy' about it...

[Mayhem]

The key issue is that people trading in games (and hence stocking the "used" section in stores) usually do it because they can't afford to spend money on new games otherwise. Cut out being able to trade in games = lower new games sales or increase piracy.

Which is the other factor going over the heads of the publishers. The same applies to the DVD and CD industries. People pirating media doesn't mean they would have gone and bought it if they couldn't pirate it, so it can't all equate to "lost sales".

Game stores are pushing the used game sales so much because it is only one of two profitable lines they are now left with (the other being selling third party accessories). They make piss all margin on hardware and new game sales because of the prices being sold to them by the manufacturers and publishers. Maybe if this was cut and game prices reduced, it might see slightly less proliferation of used or reduce prices.

[Sniderman]

Your theory is, to put it mildly, nonsense. Used game stores have been around since the days of the Atari 2600. Garage sales, thrift stores, etc. have been buying and selling used video games forever. I've heard the same theories about eBay and everytime one of those Flashback, all-in-ones are released. Our hobby is just fine and will continue to be fine.

[davidleeroth]

I think sticking to a price point of $49.99 for a new game, when you can have Halo 2 for $6.99, would be killing the industry if anything.

[zerohero]

There is some truth to what he was saying. Japan has acknowledged the problem over there as well. I think what has happened is that the price of gaming might not have increased huge percentage wise compared to previous generations, but other due to other expenses in life, people have to think about saving money at all cost now more than ever.

100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about.

[goatdan]

I bought my car used. I wonder if Ford wishes that they could've made it explode when the original owner sold it, as the ex-owner sold it to the dealer for pennies on the dollar and Ford made nothing because of it.

I wonder how many dealers couldn't sell ZX2's because people were trying to save a little money and buy them used.

I think that the video game industry is headed in the same direction as the auto industry, and we all know that practically no one can afford to make or sell cars anymore because the used market is just so vast.

[Griking]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definately hurts it. As Anthony1 said, stores push the used copies because of the higher profit margin and since game developers don't make a penny when a used game changes hands it only makes sense that they the sale of used games hurts their bottom line. The same can be said about rentals. Didn't Japan at one time outlaw either the sale of used games or the rental of games for this very reason?

[Dangerboy]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definitely hurts it. As Anthony1 said, stores push the used copies because of the higher profit margin and since game developers don't make a penny when a used game changes hands it only makes sense that they the sale of used games hurts their bottom line. The same can be said about rentals. Didn't Japan at one time outlaw either the sale of used games or the rental of games for this very reason?

If you remove rentals, you will remove half the purhcasing population who like to "try before they buy".

As a retail clerk, I could have retired if I had a $1 for every customer who asked "What's your return policy if I don't like it?"

If game companies (and I'm not naming them all per se, just the whiny ones) are so whiny about used game sales, how about just shutting the duck up and maybe, I dunno, actually make great games that last longer than the time it takes to drive to and from the store? Or even better, actual creativity? THat way people could be more confident in spending $50 on a plastic platter rather than say...saving it or spending it on something else (Like 5 used $10 games)

[Ulticron]

It's all about the laws of supply and demand.

First off if someone at gamestop/GS clone tries to sell me a used game when I want a new game I let them know I want the new version. Some games you gotta have new. If I see an RPG I want it new just because. So far I haven't been given any gruff about the deal, after all there is walmart/kmart/target across the street and they sell nothing but new games, then there's internet vendors if I can't find it at the 3 big marts.

Now for supply and demand. Video games are in high demand right now period. The way I see things our hobby isn't dying it's actually growing. Yes some ppl are buying used games, and no the publisher isn't seeing a dime off of it. However on the flip side of things new games are still being sold, there are still quite a few places that sell nothing but new games, and there are ppl that want new games or no games at all. I pick and choose, sometimes I want it new, sometimes I don't care. Companies aren't going to fold up and die off simply because of the sale of used games. However it might very well cut down the number of crap titles produced on a system simply because they don't have the huge budget to waste on them.

[Mayhem]

I agree with Anthony1 about this. While I don't think that used games are going to kill the industry I truely believe that it definitely hurts it.

And as I mentioned above, take away used game sales and you hurt new game sales anyhow because people can't sell their old games to be able to afford new games.

So which hurts the least I wonder...?

[GrandAmChandler]

Let me state that this has very little warrant. Does this hurt sales? sure. Does it really matter? No. Look at Madden, how many freaking copies did they sell last year? Or GTA: San Andreas? And then the RE-RELEASE of San Andreas flew off the shelves.



I almost always buy used. It's cheaper. As long as it's in good shape, I really don't care. The only time I buy new games is during a clearance sale (Circuit City / TRU) or something that I MUST have (Mario Kart DS, Animal Crossing DS, etc.)



Publishers will still continue to make games. There will be no market crash. If Sony stupidly decides to "marry" games to consoles, it will fail. If that ever happens, I will convert back to PC gaming, and stick to my OLD SKOOL systems.

</long rant with many page breaks>

[XianXi]

Fortunatley for us Blockbuster Gamerush's prices are not based on ebay or market prices but instead from rental usage. I bought several games way below market price. This is how I got 7 copies of MvC2 for PS2, they were only selling them for $12 when market was $50-60.

In all actuallty this helps collectors more since most people dont collect games, they just want new games. So they go into a store and trade in their old games to get new ones, what's the problem there?

What pisses me off is gamestop like to charge prices close to new prices for used new games. When I wanted to pick up Dynasty Warriors 5, they had a new one for $39.99 and the used one was $37.99, how many people actually want to save just $2 instead of just buying the new one?

[FantasiaWHT]

"100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about"

Want to make an analogy here...

Only 40% of clothing sells at full retail value. Markdowns happen fairly quickly and most people won't pay $40 for a shirt that will be $28 in several weeks, or $6 at the end of the season.

Does the fact that an item can be bought for 20% or less of the original cost at a later time stop everyone from buying at the high price? No, and obviously enough people still buy at full retail for stores to justify keeping the initial price that high.

There is such a demand to play a game RIGHT AWAY when it comes out, and such a lag in used stock becoming widely available at a significant discount that brand new games will continue to sell well at the initial price point.

[XianXi]

"100 games at a $50 price tag are released. Only 50 people "half" buy it at that price, and then sell it back used for store credit. Now the "used" game is $25 bucks and the other "50" people that didn't buy the game now buy the used copy. Now think about that for a moment , and you will see what the original poster was talking about"

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

[s1lence]

I think the automotive view that was mentioned is the way the industry is going. Its not going to kill it in the least. Its the same with buying used CD's or used toys. I guess maybe

I look at it this way, used videogames aren't some new concept in the least. The only difference is the development cost is going up so the industry is pissing and moaning because they aren't making as much money as they could, kinda like the RIAA pisses and moans.

Now what could "kill" videogaming is the over abundence of crap games that are being pumped out like quarter-pounders.

[FantasiaWHT]

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

I'm not positive how that related to my point, but I think you're forgetting that the retailers have a deal that they can "sell" their games back for a preset amount if they do not sell very well.

[crazyjackcsa]

Do you mean our hobby of Gaming or our hobby of Classic gaming? I think it only helps out hobby of classic gaming. Most of the collecting I do is for previous generations or for the games I missed out of the beginning of this generation all of which are used. There are far worse things in this world affecting our hobby than the growth of the used market.

[XianXi]

You're forgetting that the retailer already bought the games from the supplier so those are already considered sold to the manufacturer.

I'm not positive how that related to my point, but I think you're forgetting that the retailers have a deal that they can "sell" their games back for a preset amount if they do not sell very well.

If you didn't understand my post you will never understand retail.

Video game sales are based off of what the manufacturer has sold not how much the stores have sold.