View Poll Results: Is a blanket ban acceptable to prevent the fanning of the flames?

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Thread: Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

  1. #1
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    Default Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

    http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breakin...ing-153075.php

    Lambda Legal has issued a warning to Blizzard implying that the company would face litigation for violating Gay rights if they did not adjust their practices.

    For those who are unaware, last week blizzard came down on a WOW player who was trying to create a gay friendly guild citing a violationof their harassment policy because there is a full blanket ban on mentioning subjects such as sexual orientation.

    Lambda Legal had this to say:

    "Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,” Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. "

    While i understand why people can have an issue with a blanket ban i have to admit it makes sense.

    A sad fact of life is that there is a reasonably large number of racist, sexist, assholes online and openly expressing homosexuality is just asking for trouble.

    While turning a blind eye to the issue of online descrimination certainly doesn't help solve the problem, it is a very reasonable preventative step.

    I've never been one to support censorship of beleifs or view of any kind, but that's a 2 sided coin. If you want to express your sexuality then you should be prepared to face all the assholes who will voice there unwanted opinion.

    You can't control an online user like you can a real person because you just don't have the authority. In real life harassers can be fined or even face jail time, but in a game all you can do is ban there account and in that case they'll just get another one.

    It's a very complex and controversial subject no matter how you look at it. I've voiced my oopinion but how do the rest of you feel.

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    I was going to vote and run, but since I am the only one to vote "No," please allow me to retort.

    First, it is perfectly legal for Blizzard to ban whatever words they want. Blizzard is not the government, the first ammendment does not apply (We are talking USA here, right?).

    With that said, I am never in favor of squashing speech, with the only possible exception of "hate speech" however you define that.

    Someone wants to advertise a gay-friendly guild, god bless them. Someone wants to reply "Joo n00b fag," not OK. Want to debate the origins of sexual orientation in a productive manner, fine. Threaten someone because of said orientation, not fine.
    It doesn't get any more serious than a Rhinocerus about to charge your ass.

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    njiska

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    Quote Originally Posted by davepesc
    I was going to vote and run, but since I am the only one to vote "No," please allow me to retort.

    First, it is perfectly legal for Blizzard to ban whatever words they want. Blizzard is not the government, the first ammendment does not apply (We are talking USA here, right?).

    With that said, I am never in favor of squashing speech, with the only possible exception of "hate speech" however you define that.

    Someone wants to advertise a gay-friendly guild, god bless them. Someone wants to reply "Joo n00b fag," not OK. Want to debate the origins of sexual orientation in a productive manner, fine. Threaten someone because of said orientation, not fine.
    Abosolutely agree with you that this is how things should be. However one must consider the practical side of enforcement and wieght the pros and cons.

    The blankets is a very easy solution because it removes some of the temptation. Lower occurences are easier to fix.

    Allowing the free speech of gay friendly guilds has the potential to fan the flames and that would mean higher occurances which are much harder to police.

    How to handle the policing is that hard part.

    And yes you are right there's no legal presicdent here. Blizzard, much like the scouts, can run the world as they see fit.

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    Apple (Level 5) mezrabad's Avatar
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    I'm not anti-gay, so don't even go there.

    If the policy explicitly forbids setting up a guild leaning towards a particular sexual orientation then there ya go. That's the policy and you agree to it when you sign up.

    I think it's more of a practical issue. By setting up a gay guild, (setting up a "straight" guild would also be against the policy, by the way, it's only fair that both would be denied.) they're opening the door up for lots of potential harrassment events that would then require alot more policing of harassment policy. Enforcement costs money. If you're running a business and you saw a type of guild forming that had the potential to cost you a lot of money, (with zero revenue) that could be avoided by enforcing an already existing policy, what would you do?

    Lamda Legal think they have a case. I think they do not.

    If they can't possibly enjoy the game without making a gay guild then they should go find an MMO that will allow it. Dummies.
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    If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.

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    Cherry (Level 1)
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    just curious here, but isn't that enough sexual material in a game to almost change it's ESRB rating? i mean words and language are one thing, but openly advertising a guild based on orientation would seem more of a "M" rated thing to me because then it's a part of the game?

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    Default Re: Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

    Quote Originally Posted by njiska
    http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breakin...ing-153075.php

    Lambda Legal has issued a warning to Blizzard implying that the company would face litigation for violating Gay rights if they did not adjust their practices.

    For those who are unaware, last week blizzard came down on a WOW player who was trying to create a gay friendly guild citing a violationof their harassment policy because there is a full blanket ban on mentioning subjects such as sexual orientation.

    Lambda Legal had this to say:

    "Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,” Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. "

    While i understand why people can have an issue with a blanket ban i have to admit it makes sense.

    A sad fact of life is that there is a reasonably large number of racist, sexist, assholes online and openly expressing homosexuality is just asking for trouble.

    While turning a blind eye to the issue of online descrimination certainly doesn't help solve the problem, it is a very reasonable preventative step.

    I've never been one to support censorship of beleifs or view of any kind, but that's a 2 sided coin. If you want to express your sexuality then you should be prepared to face all the assholes who will voice there unwanted opinion.

    You can't control an online user like you can a real person because you just don't have the authority. In real life harassers can be fined or even face jail time, but in a game all you can do is ban there account and in that case they'll just get another one.

    It's a very complex and controversial subject no matter how you look at it. I've voiced my oopinion but how do the rest of you feel.
    I am actually on your side I agree fully

    I think that blizzard is in the right here, I think blizzard is doing the right thing because it's takes out the problems that may occur. even if they don't it's still better to prevent it before it happens.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.
    but they are not punishing people for being who they are

    they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

    so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.


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    Default

    I completely side with njiska on this one. Blizzard has the right to do as they see fit with their game, as long as it does not target any specific individuals or group of individuals.

    A blanket ban is the perfect option. All the bases are covered.
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    First off: A disclaimer. I do not, nor have I ever played an MMO of anytype. Therefore, maybe I'm missing something but...

    It seems like Blizzard has a policy saying players can't form groups based on anything sex related. Players agree to the end user agreement which basically says Blizzard makes the rules. Therefore - nonissue. Blizzard says no sex based groups so no sex based groups. It seems like they are doing the right thing and avoiding a very slippery slope in doing so...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothars
    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.
    but they are not punishing people for being who they are

    they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

    so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.
    That's the thing - it isn't the people who created this guild who are ruining the game, it's the bigots and the idiots. The potential actions of these few morons shouldn't affect the whole WoW universe. Perhaps I shouldn't say they're punishing the people for being who they are, but they are most definitely limiting them and their rights to free speech and whatnot. I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild, which if true is an awful hypocrisy. I've seen Christian guilds as well, which is certainly a hot button issue these days as well, but those folks weren't shut down either.

    Futhermore, I would imagine that the people in this guild knew exactly what sort of reaction they were likely to get (hell, many of them are likely used to it), and that leads me to believe that they're probably okay with putting up with a few dumbasses in order to create a community of people they can relate to in this way. And that's what WoW is all about - community.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothars
    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    If the problems are the bigots and idiots who are bashing homosexuals, then THOSE are the people who need to be dealt with. People shouldn't be punished for being who they are, and Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves.
    but they are not punishing people for being who they are

    they just don't want any problems to start occuring if the guild was to be created, which I honestly have no problems with but if it ruins the game because the bigots and idiots are insulting any member of the guild than it hurts the game for the guild that would be worst for everyone.

    so I don't think Blizzard has anything to be ashamed with but I understand where your coming from.
    That's the thing - it isn't the people who created this guild who are ruining the game, it's the bigots and the idiots. The potential actions of these few morons shouldn't affect the whole WoW universe. Perhaps I shouldn't say they're punishing the people for being who they are, but they are most definitely limiting them and their rights to free speech and whatnot. I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild, which if true is an awful hypocrisy. I've seen Christian guilds as well, which is certainly a hot button issue these days as well, but those folks weren't shut down either.
    On US servers a Christian guild is far from controversaial but a gay guild is tempting the gods. I'm sure Blizzard would have a problem with a guild that didn't allow gay players because that too would be like to be a breeding ground for hate.

    However one is following to imply what Blizzard would do in any situation as we are not Blizzard and do not really know for sure.

    The bottom line is, you're gay that's great, but there's no need to bring it into the game and put yourself at risk when you aren't willing to face the consequences.

    Free speech is a two sided coin. If you have what you want then you have to except the other side.

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    Then allow both sides. It'll make it more like a real world that way anyway. Maybe if they did that and it then became a serious problem, then they'd have reason to pull the plug on it.

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    I don't have a problem with gay people but I don't like it when they try to make us accept it.

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    Default Re: Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

    Tried to post before classes today, but my lousy modem cut out again.

    We had some folks from the WoW side come to GameSpy Forums and go over all this. Basically, it sucks. In their quest for "equality" certain people have thought nothing of causing the same kind of controversy that the ban on sex-related clans was supposed to prevent.

    Regrettable, but it doesn't make me feel bad for having deliberately sat out on the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild
    Another instance of somebody sounding off without understanding the issue, and, I dare say, evidence of the typical delusion this minority has evidenced. The agreement banned ANY clans based off sexual preferences, gay or straight. It was very much equal.

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    Default Re: Queer Folk threaten to sue Orc Folk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro
    Quote Originally Posted by pacmanhat
    I would imagine Blizzard would have little to no problem with a 'straight' guild
    Another instance of somebody sounding off without understanding the issue, and, I dare say, evidence of the typical delusion this minority has evidenced. The agreement banned ANY clans based off sexual preferences, gay or straight. It was very much equal.
    I was not aware of this. That's what I get for making the assumption, I guess.

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    Stupid question of the day: How do you know if a guild is a gay one? I mean, why couldn't a group of likeminded gay gamers meet on a non-official message board somewhere, form their guild and simply play the game? I mean, did they advertise what they were doing or something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by n8littlefield
    Stupid question of the day: How do you know if a guild is a gay one? I mean, why couldn't a group of likeminded gay gamers meet on a non-official message board somewhere, form their guild and simply play the game? I mean, did they advertise what they were doing or something?
    Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.

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    My only question is: Isn't the whole point of playing these type of games is to be someone other than what you are?

    And i can't blame Blizzard really, if they allowed a gay guild then pretty soon you will have "anti-black" guilds and other such bullshit. I mean, it's bad enough gays have to deal with such issues in the real world, why on earth would you want to drag that into a fantasy game?

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by njiska
    Yes the openly advertised with in the game that the guild was for gays.
    See, that's where the hypocrisy (sp?) comes in. It's okay, in their minds, to advertise for a "gay guild" (I'm presuming it's male/gay exclusive, but I don't know) but if there were ever ads for a "straight people guild" they'd be all "hate speech! hate speech!". It's not gay people that bother me, it's crybabies and whiners who want things they way they want it, otherwise "waaah, it's not fair!" (even though it is, no guilds based on sexual preference themes at all, that's a fair rule when it applies to all flavors.)

    An argument saying "they should let us be who we are when we're pretending to be someone else!" is deficient, mostly because it uses the word "should", but also because communities are all about making rules so that things will run more smoothly. If they allowed "straights only" guilds then the bigots would be the gay people who had a problem with it. (actually, they'd probably just form their own guild in response.)

    Look, I can understand, to some extent, why they'd want a guild that was gay exclusive. There are enough people online who misuse terms like "gay", "fag" and "queer" that they'd probably like to set up a guild where the wouldn't have to hear it. If they did, they'd know it was coming from one of their own, so it isn't offensive. It's a little like way that blacks call each other "nigga" or "nigger" but wouldn't tolerate that from someone outside their group.

    Anyway, they should learn to go online and make friends with other people, regardless of their sexual orientation. If they want to only hang out with gay people there are places for that in the real world.

    There's no such thing as free speech in a privately-owned universe.
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