360 HD-DVD add on at $199 makes Sony's case for them!

[Anthony1]

Ok, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, please read this entire thread and understand what I'm talking about, and then you can tell me that I'm a blundering idiot.


First off, I want to say that I do not, in any way, shape or form consider myself to be a fanboy. I'm not too interested in the companies that make hardware or even the companies that make the games. I'm much more interested in the actual gaming experiences themselves. When it comes to Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft, I don't really have any vested interest in seeing any of these companies come out on top. None of them are paying me any salary, and I don't own stock in any of the 3 companies. so it really doesn't matter to me who get's the No.1 market share this upcoming generation. Having said all of that, I will admit that deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something.


Ok, having gotten that out of the way, the thing that I wanted to talk about is the price of the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360. Alot of gamers that are also into home theater type stuff have really been wondering how Microsoft is going to price the HD-DVD add on. The reason why there was so much debate about it, is that Microsoft hinted that a 360 and the HD-DVD add on, would still be less than the price of the PS3. Yet, they announce the HD-DVD add on is $199.99. We all know that the premium 360 is $399.99. So you combine the two, and it's 600 smackers. The same price as the higher end PS3. Why is this a big deal? Because Sony has to be smiling for the moment, because if you really compare things head to head, the PS3 looks to get the better of the comparison.


The high end version of the PS3 contains these main features:

7 cores
HDMI output
Blu Ray drive for games and movies
60 gig hard drive
Built in Wi-Fi support
Everything is integrated into one nice (and very ugly) package with no need for add-on's or accesories that need to be tethered to the main console



The 360 + HD-DVD combo contains these main features:

3 cores
component or VGA output
HD-DVD drive for movies only
20 gig hard drive
Wi-Fi adapter available seperately for $99.99



So if you compare them both head to head, they both cost 600 smackers, but if you want to use a wireless router with the 360, you need to spend another $99 for the 360 wireless adapter. That actually makes the 360 combo (360 + HD-DVD + Wireless adapter) $100 more expensive than the higher end PS3. Not only is it $100 more expensive, but it has a 20 gig hard drive instead of a 60 gig hard drive, and it also lacks a HDMI plug. And then of course there is the factor that although you can buy the wireless adapter seperately, and the 360 HD-DVD add on seperately, when you add all those pieces together, you kinda have a hodge-podge of stuff connected to the back of your 360, tethered together, and moving your 360 from one room to another becomes a much more daunting task to undertake. Do you take the HD-DVD unit with you? Do you leave it? If you leave it, then you need to unplug the wireless adapter from the back of the HD-DVD unit, so that you can still go wireless with your 360 in the other room. Or, plug the HD-DVD's usb cable into the front of the 360 to avoid that nightmare, but who the heck wants a usb cable from the HD-DVD drive going into the front of the 360? That would look pretty unsightly. So the advantage of having everything nice and neatly packed into the George Foreman grill is a nice advantage I must admit.


Of course, all of this only matters to gamers that would like to use wi-fi and also have an interest in a next-gen High Def DVD movie format. For those that have no interest in Wi-Fi or High Def movies, this comparison is meaningless. But for the people that are interested in that, this is a pretty interesting deal. If I'm Sony, I'm shouting from the rooftops that hey, we have Wi-Fi built in! You have to pay $100 just for Wi-Fi! We have our high def DVD player built in, you have to tether yours around like a dog on a leash! Our games can actually use our high def DVD storage medium, your stuck with 9 gig DVD's, and so on and so on. Sony can really claim some advantages here.


So what will Microsoft's answer to all this be? I've got two words.

Price


DROP


The 360 will get a price drop this November. At least $50 off the premium and core systems. The Wi-Fi adapter's price will be slashed in half. Those two moves will negate much of Sony's claims. Sony could have claimed that the 360 + HD-DVD + Wireless Adapter is actually $100 more than the premium PS3, but if the Premium 360 drops $50 in price, and the wireless adapter is cut in half, then the price is the same. What about HDMI you say? What about the extra 40 gigs of hard drive space? How does Microsoft answer to that? It's pretty simple. They could cut the price of the premium and Core 360 even more than $50. If they cut it my $100, it would make people forget all about those little differences. Only thing is, cutting the price by $100 would be cause even more losses for that division, I'm not sure they want to deal with that this Xmas, especially with the PS3 in such short supply. Actually, they will probably just stick with the $50 price drop, and then very late in the Spring of 2007, they will release a new version of the Xbox 360. The "Platinum Edition" Xbox 360. The PE Xbox 360, will feature a 200 gig hard drive, HDMI, built in HD-DVD player, etc, etc. And be cheaper than the high end PS3. That is how Microsoft is going to counteract this. But until all this stuff becomes public knowledge, it's going to be interesting to see how Sony spins the $199 HD-DVD price, in relation to their premium PS3 unit.


If I'm Sony, I take advantage of the mismatch while I got it. It will be very short lived.

[Vectorman0]

I'm not going to lie and say I read your post in its entirety when I really didn't, but I could have sworn a price drop was already discussed: Link.

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is nearly a big of a deal as you make it out to be. To me, the wireless isn't of use, so the systems are at the same price, assuming I intend to get a HD-DVD unit. I imagine that alot of other people don't need the wireless adapter either. From what I understand, the HDMI cable isn't included in the box for PS3, which is added cost. And once Microsoft releases theirs, and updates the dashboard with 1080p support, the systems look mighty equal to me. The PS3 might have 40 GB more hard drive space, which is very welcome, but I don't see myself having any trouble with the 360 HD's capacity anytime soon, as long as I delete all of the demos and videos I get on it.

PS - Try to shorten your posts, I promise you will get more and better responses that way.

[Darren870]

If you don't care about companies who make the hardware why do you always seem to post this stuff?

[Andred]

You blundering idiot! Just kidding.

You make some good points about how the PS3 is self-contained and actually cheaper (at the moment) than the 360 with a comparable setup. It definitely has the ease of use factor.

However, my biggest gripe about the PS3 is the fact that, if I decided to buy one, I have no choice whether or not to get a Blue-Ray player to play my movies on my 10 year-old 19" tv. With the Xbox360 I can get the system now and get an HD-DVD drive later on if I ever upgrade my tv. In this case the Blue-Ray player is a waste of my money that is forced upon me if I want to enjoy a PS3.

Then again, the 360 is going to run up against the fact that add-ons NEVER work. Peripherals that are added after the fact just don't get the support they need to succeed because the content developers don't have a guaranteed market. The VAST majority of games on the 360 will NEVER take advantage of the HD-DVD's capacity because only 2 in 10 people that buy a console will also buy the HD-DVD addon. Because of that the PS3 has a huge advantage as far as storage for games goes. 360 is confined to 9GB and PS3 has available 60GB.

It's still hard for me to make a decision on whether the 360 or PS3 is better. I guess it's because they're both just so generic that it's tough to distinguish them (except for PS3's shiny Spider-Man font). All I can say is "Viva la Wii"!

[Andred]

No edit!

Not to mention that Wi-Fi is just about worthless in my experience. Wi-Fi connections drop... alot! Imaging the amount of whining from kids playing Halo3 when they drop their wireless connection and die every 5 minutes. Oooh the horror!

[jajaja]

$199 eh? Is that worldwide? If so, it will cost more than the PS3. The 20gb model is about $400 in Japan atleast. Now, im sure people will come with the "the hd-dvd player is optional" comment, which is true, but still.. If you want to compare the hardware to the price, the hd-dvd player must be included imo.

Its also only a matter of time before games come to hd-dvd and that they announce the 360 with build-in hd-dvd player. Might take 1-2 years, but im sure we'll see it.

[slip81]

Then again, the 360 is going to run up against the fact that add-ons NEVER work. Peripherals that are added after the fact just don't get the support they need to succeed because the content developers don't have a guaranteed market. The VAST majority of games on the 360 will NEVER take advantage of the HD-DVD's capacity because only 2 in 10 people that buy a console will also buy the HD-DVD addon.

The games aren't meant to take advantage of the HD-DVD drive, it will be used for movies only, so companies don't have to worry about supporting it with software.

I can't remember exactly where I read it, but I do remember Moore saying something along the lines of the HD-DVD being for movies only, and that MS will not release a version of the 360 with the drive built in because they don't want to force it on consumers. His theory seemed to be (at the time) that the company didn't want the 360 to have any added stuff that wasn't for gaming.

As for Sony's claim that they have all this extra shit built in, I think I can speak for most of the gaming community when I say, who cares?

Anyone who games online knows that wi-fi isn't all that reliable, and it's not as fast as ethernet, which is a big deal when 16 people are tying to race around the night streets of Tokyo or wherever at 200mph in 1080p, you need all the bandwidth you can get.

And anyone who has even a slight interest in HD knows that Blu-Ray in it's current state is crap, and not nearly as good as HD-DVD. That may change in a few years, but right now, have you ever seen blu-ray? I have at a Sony Style store, and both me, and my girlfriend agreed that it didn't really look that much better than standard DVD.

I think the real fact of the matter is is that most people don't care about all that added crap that the ps3 has. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people who buy the thing are gonna watch standard dvd's on it, hook it up to a 27" 4:3 SDTV with composite cables, and plug and eternet cord into the back.

Personally I'm glad that the 360 doesn’t have all that extra stuff bundled in. I don't want wi-fi, ethernet works great, why pay extra for something I don't need. Same goes for HD-DVD, I'm interested in it, but right now the two sides are so divided anyone who settles on a format is a fool IMO, because they won't last, and whichever one dies first the other will eventually become light-years better.

I'll probably get the HD-DVD addon, but only if blu-ray fails as a format, because I don't want to have to have TWO high def DVD players just so I can watch Batman and Spider-Man in 1080, and I don't think anyone else does either.

[DonMarco]

Ok, having gotten that out of the way, the thing that I wanted to talk about is the price of the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360. Alot of gamers that are also into home theater type stuff have really been wondering how Microsoft is going to price the HD-DVD add on. The reason why there was so much debate about it, is that Microsoft hinted that a 360 and the HD-DVD add on, would still be less than the price of the PS3. Yet, they announce the HD-DVD add on is $199.99. We all know that the premium 360 is $399.99. So you combine the two, and it's 600 smackers. The same price as the higher end PS3.

Combine the two and it's $599.98. Which is "less" than $599.99. Obviously. And the Core 360 + HD DVD player is $500, which is competitive for other HD DVD players on the market. Hopefully it will be a really nice one, like the 360 DVD player.

Try to remember that HD DVDs are not for everyone. You need to buy HD DVDs to use the damn thing. You also need a HD TV, which is still not really all that common everywhere. Some will adopt the format now, or next year, or the year after that. More people, and gamers, are getting into building home theaters. Big screen HD TV sets, PS3s and 360 HD for playing the HD movies and all that. More so that they used the PS2/Xbox as the primary DVD player.

So if you compare them both head to head, they both cost 600 smackers, but if you want to use a wireless router with the 360, you need to spend another $99 for the 360 wireless adapter. That actually makes the 360 combo (360 + HD-DVD + Wireless adapter) $100 more expensive than the higher end PS3.

I have the 360 premium, and a wireless adapter. I'll break down for the HD-player only because I'm really into movie collecting. I would have spent $700 getting all these things, but that's three seperate purchases over a year.

Not only is (the Xbox 360) $100 more expensive, but it has a 20 gig hard drive instead of a 60 gig hard drive, and it also lacks a HDMI plug.

Honestly, the HDMI thing is a selling point for me. The TV I bought last year doesn't have a HDMI port on it. I really didn't care for one, as 1080i is great and 720p is arguably just as good, both of which can be sent via DVI or component cables.

And then of course there is the factor that although you can buy the wireless adapter seperately, and the 360 HD-DVD add on seperately, when you add all those pieces together, you kinda have a hodge-podge of stuff connected to the back of your 360, tethered together, and moving your 360 from one room to another becomes a much more daunting task to undertake. Do you take the HD-DVD unit with you? Do you leave it? If you leave it, then you need to unplug the wireless adapter from the back of the HD-DVD unit, so that you can still go wireless with your 360 in the other room. Or, plug the HD-DVD's usb cable into the front of the 360 to avoid that nightmare, but who the heck wants a usb cable from the HD-DVD drive going into the front of the 360? That would look pretty unsightly. So the advantage of having everything nice and neatly packed into the George Foreman grill is a nice advantage I must admit.

Having to move something the size of George Forman's grill is something worth debating. Assuming you had all those parts and wanted to move then, then fine. It's a mess. Just like moving a PC or entertainment center around. Or a high-end stereo system.

Our games can actually use our high def DVD storage medium, your stuck with 9 gig DVD's, and so on and so on.

I know this won't be the last time I bring this up, but so the fuck what? What DVD game shipped on more than one DVD? The PS2 RPGs like Star Ocean and them Gamecube games like Tiger Woods Golf 2005 or Resident Evil. Every stinking game had tons of room on them, which was filled with hours of pre-recorded audio and pre-rendered video. But as the systems got more powerful, you could script thousands of hours of cinemas using in-game engines versus the thousand of megabytes for only 30 minutes of CGI. See how few next-gen games use the in-game cinematics? Even if you want to argue that there is no room on the DVD for HD video, fine. The trade off, so far has been higher textures and more recorded audio tracks.

Even releasing a game on 4 DVDs would be cheaper than 1 of the next-gen discs.

The only thing you'll see utiliing the dozens of gigs will be pre-rendered video. It won't be as jarringly unlike the in-game graphics as Final Fantasy VII or VIII, which is a good thing, yes.

LASTLY

So far, everything about the PS3 is speculation. How will the games actually look and play? PLAY being the big question. You can have the technical superiority *cough*PSP*cough*, but the system with more fun games will win out. Stop saying "our this" and "our that" when you refer to the PS3. It's not "your" system side any more than it is mine. The technology is copyrighted by someone else and the games were created and published by many someone elses. Also, the fact "you all" don't actually possess the system (see how I didn't say "your system" there?) is pretty sad. But one way you will.

[gepeto]

Microsoft has the overall consumer friendly package. The $400 price tag gets you in the game with a nice price point.

I have yet to see the advantage of blue ray in gaming other than disc space. Microsoft has been very shrewed when it comes to hardware. It knew broadband was the way to go in the xbox forget dialup.

I think it also knew its limitations for the next gen war. Clearly there (still is) no defined winner in the next gen standard for dvd.

They knew dvd would be able to cover them even if it takes multiple disc swapping. I never heard of anyone complain of disc swapping in the psx error. Fear effect , final fantasy ,etc.

I think buy the time developers utilize a full blue ray disc the next gen will be upon us. The ps3 could have and should have had a dvd inside.

Instead they chose to push there format on the public win lose or draw and at 600 it is a lose. I want to believe blueray was the way to go because of piracy but it is clearly a format they want to push.

To sonys credit.
they did cause the dvd media to become mainstream. But there price was alot cheaper than the dvd players on the market.

This time different story 600.00 is not cheap.

[Griking]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

[diskoboy]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

AMEN.

Plus Peter Jackson's King Kong will be included at purchase. Even though I'm not a fan, packing in a movie definately helps.....

[business]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

AMEN.

Plus Peter Jackson's King Kong will be included at purchase. Even though I'm not a fan, packing in a movie definitely helps.....

They are also packing in the universal media remote too!

[grimlock]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

Actually, 2.

You can also use it for your PC

[Anthony1]

I just wanted to comment real quick on the Wi-Fi. For the first month I had my Xbox 360, I was using a wired setup, and then I got the 360 Wireless adapter when Kmart made a pricing blunder and was selling the wireless adapter for $50. I've been using wireless ever since, and I've never had any problems at all. I've played just about everything online, and I haven't had any issues with drop outs or lag that was specifically related to me using wireless.



Also, I did say:

"Of course, all of this only matters to gamers that would like to use wi-fi and also have an interest in a next-gen High Def DVD movie format. For those that have no interest in Wi-Fi or High Def movies, this comparison is meaningless"


So for alot of you guys that either don't have any interest in Wi-Fi, or any interest in watching High Def movies of course this wouldn't matter at all to you.


Somebody mentioned that Blu-Ray absolutely sucks right now. I totally agree with that. HD-DVD blows it away. But, there is a reason why HD-DVD blows it away. The current crop of Blu Ray movies have been using MPEG2 as the codec, while HD-DVD has been using VC-1. VC-1 is dramatically superior to MPEG2, so that is why HD-DVD looks so much better right now. Also the Blu Ray movies have been single layer, which I think is 25 GB, and the HD-DVD movies have been dual layer, which is 30 GB. Once Blu Ray starts using the 50 gig disks, and switches to VC-1, the Blu Ray movies will start looking just as good as HD-DVD if not better. With the extra 20 gigs of storage, the Blu Ray movies won't have to use as much compression. Supposedly the 50 gig VC-1 Blu Ray movies are going to be arriving later this year. Once that happens, then it's all about Studio support and marketing. I would love to see Blu Ray die a quick and painful death, but unfortunately Fox and Disney aren't going to let that happen. It's going to be a bloody and brutal war. x_x

[Sothy]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!

[jajaja]

The question is, when will the hd-dvd exclusive games come. Then you are "forced" to buy the addon. Its not unlikely. Like you have to buy the mics to play the Singstar games for PS2, the EyeToy camera to play those games and for N64 you have to buy an expansion PAK to play DK64 and ZMM.

[Emuaust]

Listen i have been saying this for months and the fact is that
you guys in the US are lucky in australia the prices look like this(The HD-DVD addon price is the rumoured price here!)

Premium 360 pack $650AUD
Wireless Adapter $170AUD
HD-DVD Addon $350AUD
Total: $1170AUD

Premium PS3 $999.95

Now the thing is the PS3 has 60gig instead of the 360's 20gig
and has much superior backwards compatibility with all of the
360 features like a next gen movie format, HDMI and a WIFI
connection all in one console, I dont care if I sound like a whiny
Sony fanboy but as a Retailer I have to weigh up the pros and
cons of both systems and to me the general public will be opting
for the PS3, I personaly love Xbox Live and my 360 but meh
they need to remedy the storage space issue before they worry
about the HD-DVD addon, Seems like a stupid knee jerk reaction to me.


The flipside I do See is that if MS can drop there price of there
console I think the Wii is screwed outside of the US and JAP,
I mean the Wii retails for $399 here in australia lacks Hi-Def,
Movie Playback and also requires you to fork out more money to
buy another controller to use the VC, something nintendo
are trying to push as a reaon to own there unit.

The 360 core retails for $499 in aus, if they can make that
$399 then all of a sudden big retail giants will push the 360
over the Wii for the simple fact that they will also try and push
a new Hi-Def TV into there purchase as more money for them,
what im trying to say if the Core 360 and Wii are the same price,
Id have to choose the 360 as a better purchase, it is in a way
what the unimformed public will percieve as next gen.


Very Interesting 12 months in gaming coming up, it may, just may
turn out o be a carbon replica of this generation with the 360
maybe getting a bit bigger share of Sony's Dominance with
Nintendo trailing behind once again.

[Andred]

The question is, when will the hd-dvd exclusive games come. Then you are "forced" to buy the addon. Its not unlikely. Like you have to buy the mics to play the Singstar games for PS2, the EyeToy camera to play those games and for N64 you have to buy an expansion PAK to play DK64 and ZMM.

Actually, I don't think the consumer would be "forced" to buy any addons. Addons just don't work because no one can safely develop content that takes advantage of them. The games that do use those addons are VERY few and far between. Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)

Listen i have been saying this for months and the fact is that
you guys in the US are lucky in australia the prices look like this(The HD-DVD addon price is the rumoured price here!)

Premium 360 pack $650AUD
Wireless Adapter $170AUD
HD-DVD Addon $350AUD
Total: $1170AUD

Premium PS3 $999.95

Now the thing is the PS3 has 60gig instead of the 360's 20gig
and has much superior backwards compatibility with all of the
360 features like a next gen movie format, HDMI and a WIFI
connection all in one console, I dont care if I sound like a whiny
Sony fanboy but as a Retailer I have to weigh up the pros and
cons of both systems and to me the general public will be opting
for the PS3, I personaly love Xbox Live and my 360 but meh
they need to remedy the storage space issue before they worry
about the HD-DVD addon, Seems like a stupid knee jerk reaction to me.


The flipside I do See is that if MS can drop there price of there
console I think the Wii is screwed outside of the US and JAP,
I mean the Wii retails for $399 here in australia lacks Hi-Def,
Movie Playback and also requires you to fork out more money to
buy another controller to use the VC, something nintendo
are trying to push as a reaon to own there unit.

The 360 core retails for $499 in aus, if they can make that
$399 then all of a sudden big retail giants will push the 360
over the Wii for the simple fact that they will also try and push
a new Hi-Def TV into there purchase as more money for them,
what im trying to say if the Core 360 and Wii are the same price,
Id have to choose the 360 as a better purchase, it is in a way
what the unimformed public will percieve as next gen.


Very Interesting 12 months in gaming coming up, it may, just may
turn out o be a carbon replica of this generation with the 360
maybe getting a bit bigger share of Sony's Dominance with
Nintendo trailing behind once again.

If the Wii and 360 are the same price I guess it really comes down to what kind of person is shopping for a console.

If a hardcore gamer walks into a store and sees that they are the same price I would agree, they'll probably pick up the 360. If a much more casual gamer walks into that same store, they'll probably walk out with a Wii. That's what Nintendo is shooting for. They're still going to cater somewhat to the hardcore but they're much more concerned with expanding the gamer base. I like it.

Also, I don't think Nintendo (and the rest of the gaming industry) gives two dime-sized loafs about the market outside of the North America and Japan. They know where the majority of their sales come from each generation. I don't want people to think that I have something against other countries. I truly don't. But the markets in Australia or Europe are just much smaller than the ones in North America and Japan.

I do agree though, it's definitely going to be an interesting year in gaming!

[jajaja]

Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)

Actually, alot of people do. Just check Singstar, incredible popular. How many Singstar games are out now, 8-10 (also counting the region releases) ? So if a GREAT game gets released on HD-DVD only many will buy it for sure.

Guitar Hero does not require the guitar to play. Same with Dance Dance Revolution where you dont need the dancemath to use it. Both these games can be played with the controller.

[Andred]

Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)

Actually, alot of people do. Just check Singstar, incredible popular. How many Singstar games are out now, 8-10 (also counting the region releases) ? So if a GREAT game gets released on HD-DVD only many will buy it for sure.

Guitar Hero does not require the guitar to play. Same with Dance Dance Revolution where you dont need the dancemath to use it. Both these games can be played with the controller.

8-10?? There are over 1000 games for the PS2! That's roughly 1 percent of the games. What percentage of Wii games will ultimately take advantage of the Wii-motes "next generation" functions? I'd venture to guess the number is going to be above 90 percent. The reason? Gauranteed base market. That's one of the main factors that these companies use to make their decisions. They only reduce their possible return by limiting their market to those customers that happen to have or are willing to buy the optional addon hardware. No profit-minded company is going to do that. And almost all of them are in it for the money!