Has modern gaming left Sonic as a relic? Will Sonic & the Secret Rings revive him?

[TheRedEye]

Glad their pachinko division is pulling them through. Unfortunately they only have 30 titles with an average review score of 90 or above. That's for the entire history of the company...

Yeah, and we all know how important enthusiast press reviews are to sales:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...php?story=7453

I'm not picking on you, I'm just tired of people screaming "bankruptcy" with absolutely nothing to back it up. Remember all the forums threads about how Nintendo is doomed and Microsoft is going to buy them?

[Nature Boy]

Honestly, no Sonic game has caught my attention like the Genesis ones. Those games were always about speed, and taking Sonic into 3D kinda ruins the game for me.

I've got Sonic Rush for the DS, but like New Super Mario Bros it feels like been there, done that.

I'm not anti 3D at all, I just can't get into a 3D Sonic game. I'll just keep going back to Sonic 2.

(Mind you I am very loyal to the games I absolutely adore. I enjoy the new Civ games, for example, but can't stop playing Civ II. Sames goes for Sonic 2. And Wario Ware).

[lordnikon]

I have been saying this for a while now, and many people here reciprocated this thought in the thread. It is true that the Sega of old is dead. The development teams have been dispersed and Sega is now shopping all of their First Party properties out to third party developers.

There is one very important aspect a lot of people seem to be missing:

Crap sells.

Just look at the majority of pop culture in general (ie music industry). The average consumer is not too bright and will swallow pretty much anything with the right marketing tactics. People do not go to WalMart and start looking for a fun, colorfull, innovative game that runs at a high framerate. They go and see Shadow holding a GUN and say "OMG look you get to shoot things, this might be good." Then they buy it.

Sega went all out with the Dreamcast sacrificing their entire company over the idea that making unique game titles would save them. They pushed for creativity and told their amusement devs to come up with fresh ideas. It was a golden age of new Intellectual Property. The Dreamcast scenario proves that quality games alone do not sell. If you want a repeat example, just look at Capcom, which I consider to be the second golden age of this generation. In the last 3 years Capcom has created more new IP's than any other game company on the market. What happened in the end? The same thing that afflicted Sega. Capcom broke up Clover Studios, and learned that developing creative original titles does not sell games. (Third example: Psychonauts...)

Companies have learned that the Electronic Arts business model is the way to go. Churn out a dirth of sequels, sports games, and muddy textured drab looking ports from year to year, and you are sure to make millions. Just look at Sega and Activision.

Even Yuji Naka left Sonic Team to pursue his own development studio! By purchasing the next generation Sonic the Hedgehog game you are buying a product that was not birthed from Sega's original creative minds. If you are a true Sega Fan looking for new releases, then please track down titles which were developed by original Sega first party teams:

Wii - Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)
PS2 - Shining Force EXA (Co-developed: Neverland + Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)*
PS3 - Virtua Fighter 5 (Sega's R&D #2 aka SEGA-AM2)
PS3 - Virtua Tennis 3 (Sega's R&D #2 aka SEGA-AM2)
PS2 - Ryu Ga Gotoku / Yakuza (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)
PS2 - Ryu Ga Gotoku 2 / Yakuza 2 (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)

*Shining Force EXA may be run just by Neverland now, a third party company who originally developed Record of Lodosswar for the Dreamcast. The original Shining Force NEO was co-developed in conjunction with Amusement Vision. However now the torch may have been passed entirely. Not sure yet.

(There are also a variety of arcade games already released on the lindbergh which have no announced console release. I do not know the specific developers off the top of my head, so I am not listing the games.)

So there you have it.

Do not get blinded by the Sega logo! Always investigate to see who is actually developing the games you plan to buy! Be smart!

[agbulls]

Lordnikon, very very well put. However, there is one thing to remember in all of this (and I think you were getting to it)...the videogame industry is no longer an enthusiast run hobby. Whereas we once were able to uniquely drive market trends based upon OUR purchasing decisions, gaming has truly spread to the masses. With this growing adoption, and new "everyone" consoles like the Wii, expect creativey to continue to be sparse. After all, studios strive now for that "EA" model. Ubisoft--even with quality software--aims to churn out the sequels. Now we're already seeing trailers for Ghost Recon 2 on 360.

So, in short, we have slowly become equivalent to the followers of indie films. We have high expectations, require new ideas, dislike most sequels and clearly view our preferred medium as art.

Sadly, the rest of the public views games at kid's toys. I can't wait till I'm older...maybe things will change if we're lucky.

[alec]

Its not modern gaming that has left Sonic as a relic, its Sega who has. A fresh new Sonic game that takes advantage of new hardware, yet has the charm of the Genesis games would be all they need to revive the series.

I think a lot of it has to do with the hedgehog switching genres to 3D platformer. IMO 3D platformers are the absolute worst genre of video games. The only games in this genre I would consider excellent are Mario 64 and Nights, which some only consider 2.5D. Other than that, all 3D platformers I've played are for the most part just barely passable, if that. That being said there are a lot of 3dp games I haven't played, not that I want to, but I might be missing out on some gems, who knows.

[DigitalSpace]

I've been hearing some good things about the upcoming Sonic game on the Wii. Hopefully that's a good sign.

[TheRedEye]

The problem with the console games is that they've painted themselves into a corner by trying and failing to give character and backstory to a simple iconic mascot, and the problem with the portable games is that they don't innovate (with the exception of the tricks system in Rush, which I think is the best Sonic gameplay mechanic since the spindash).

[Melf]

Sonic Team has had a hard time dealing with the transition to full 3D. Thats been the problem

I don't think they've had a problem adjusting to 3D, as games like NIGHTS, Burning Rangers, and Sonic Adventure were all brilliant. What's happened is that Naka and a lot of the people that made ST what it was are now gone, and all you basically have left is the name.

[KingCobra]

Sonic and Mario are just played out IMO, not that a newer game in either series couldn't be done right and in a modern way, but just let'em rest a bit.

Sonic is just to hard at blazzing speeds in a Free-roaming 3D world, plus the spin-off games aren't really Sonic, now are they?

[ManciGames]

I have been saying this for a while now, and many people here reciprocated this thought in the thread. It is true that the Sega of old is dead. The development teams have been dispersed and Sega is now shopping all of their First Party properties out to third party developers.

There is one very important aspect a lot of people seem to be missing:

Crap sells.
<snip the rest of this perfect analysis

Lordnikon, you have just put into words that which I have been thinking almost the entire time I was browsing through this thread. You have hit the nail on the head.

The bottom line is that unless you search out the "true" Sega games (great list there, by the way), you are just going to get the same drivel that the rest of these companies are pushing out.

I was looking at some of 2007's "big titles" and was left feeling very underwhelmed. Including the Wii...though the Wii is where I found the games I was a bit more excited about.

I think the bottom line is that gaming as I know and love it is changing. There will still be the occasional title for current systems that I want (on my Christmas list is Okami and Star Trek: Legacy), but for the most part, I can see myself buying only 6 games or so a year from here on out. I used to buy that many in just a couple of months.

The nice thing about that is that I am saving so much money, that I can afford to buy some more classic games, including those for the Neo Geo.

And I think that is key... The classics will always be there. And there are more games than I will ever be able to play in my lifetime. So, there is that. I am just so disappointed that I have not been able to see classic style games and impressive fantasy worlds created on these new mega-consoles with all of the power at their disposal.

I see games like "Mass Effect", and parts of it look like what I am craving, but then I see the shooter elements pop up, and I get bored. Can't we just have something like "Starfleet" (the old Amiga / Genesis game) with fantastic graphics and unusual worlds full of surprises to explore? Do I always have to SHOOT something?

Okay, sorry about the rambling. To keep on topic, I will just say that if Sega could kick out a 2D / 3D hybrid Sonic (like "Pandemonium" or maybe even the new Mario coming out for Gamecube), I'd be a very happy man.

[swlovinist]

Sonic Rush for the DS has been the last good sonic they have made. As good as Sonic Adventure was, it was not as good as the the originals. I would love for them to make a 2D sonic using current 3D models. I doubt I will ever see it though.

[Iron Draggon]

I think they need to release it for the PC... hopefully they will... Sonic Riders just came out for the PC recently, so there's a good chance Sonic will too...

[Nature Boy]

developing creative original titles does not sell games.

I think this argument is elitest trash. ("I like 'creative/original' games so I'm obviously smarter than you!")

Didn't Katamary Damacy sell well enough that they released a sequel stateside?

I'd consider Grand Theft Auto III be considered creative and original too, and I think most would consider *it* to be a financial success.

Just because Psychonauts failed to do well doesn't prove anything.

[diskoboy]

The DS is the only 'console' that you could say doesn't consider Sonic a relic.

In the past decade, it's been the best Sonic release (Sonic Rush).

[agbulls]

I want to get back to my initial concern I mentioned earlier...and that is the result of "corporate board room titles." And please, don't say EVERYTHING is now. We are getting games like the new Rayman. Even though I think there is a large chance that Sonic in 2D on a modern console would sell well (personal opinion)---corporate board rooms won't allow it. There is just too much financial risk--even with the lower overhead 2D provides. That is why modern 2D is relegated to the likes of XB Live Arcade...low cost of dev, low risk for failure and high potential profit. Poor sales of Ultimate Ghosts n Gobs and Viewtiful Joe isn't helping other companies, like Capcom, be convinced otherwise.

But, we aren't going to get big name games on this type of service. I more than welcome new names and their potential creative designs on XB arcade. Yet, this still isn't going to solve the problems that face companies like Sega and Sonic Team. I don't even know if I would go so far as to JUST blame the current members of Sonic Team. Yes, I think we can all agree they are likely LESS talented than the Sonic Team of old. But, they also have a TON of modern pressures (including the board room mentality, rising dev time, larger dev groups and holiday release windows tightening). I'm not taking them off the hook...believe me. I just wonder how RARE its going to be to see a GREAT title in the "next gen." Even companies with a ton of cash can't seem to make games you think should be easy blockbusters any good----Enter the Matrix anyone??

In short, I agree with what someone said earlier. We are probably going to get less good games in the future. If Sonic is not going to be reliable...what will be?

[MegaDrive20XX]

This is a very good topic. Has the beloved Blue Blurr, turned into nothing more than a Relic? Sure, he's Mario's rival. Yet he hasn't had a ground breaking sequel since...Sonic Adventure 2 I think? The Spin-offs have been coming in nicely, but where is the original gameplay that made Sonic 1-2-3 shine?

Sure we have Sonic Advance series, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rivals....yet nothing can ever achieve the honor of that to, Sonic The Hedgehog 2.

360/PS3 Sonic is pure eye candy by all means, but honestly feels like a remake of Sonic Adventure and Shadow the Hedgehog's guns blended into one.

Imho, the biggest issue with Sonic, is too many side-kicks/partners/etc. After Sonic Heroes, we all need to tell Sega "Hey more than 12 playable characters is overkill"

I just miss the days of just Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Dr. Eggman..that's all we need to enjoy the game series, anymore (i.e. SILVER the Hedgehog) would be downright silly.

[Push Upstairs]

I think Sega should have just stuck with Tails and Knuckles as secondary characters and that be the end of it.

The rest are excess baggage.

[Cryomancer]

I was always amused when people complaing about OMG TOO MANY NEW CHARACTERS. Not that I don't think there is merit in saing the new guys suck (they pretty much all do, i'll get into that), but think of it this way...

sonic 2 - tails
sonic 3 - knuckles
sonic cd - amy and metal
chaotix - assload of new characters (two from previous games)

I know for a fact one of the big selling points for sonic 2 and 3 were HOLY SHIT NEW CHARACTER. Maybe not so much on the others (MAYBE Sally. I mean Amy). So, there is a precedent of that being a positive thing.

But yeah, they've gotten out of hand and this point. The robots are ALL THE SAME and thus redundant. Did we really need three bird villians introduced? Couldn't they have used some of the villians they haven't used in ages (ie Nack, Tails Doll)? Why introduce new characters with convoluted origins (Silver, Blaze) when you still have many with NO story whatsoever (Bark, Bean, Ray, the leftover chaotix)? And why the hell did they make Eggman so serious and shit? he's like a generic mad scientist from a superman serial now (from what i've seen, haven't really played the 360 myself).

Why don't they just make an MMO and cash in on the internet's fetish for making recolor fancharacters while they're at it?

[segarocks30]

Yeah....Sega's been screwing up a lot with Sonic lately. I don't get it. They are making great other 3rd party games, but when it comes to their main franchise, they can't get the concept right. I have a feeling Secret Rings is the sonic of old though.......

Oh and AMEN to getting rid of mostly all the side kicks except Knuckles and Tails.

[Nature Boy]

Even though I think there is a large chance that Sonic in 2D on a modern console would sell well (personal opinion)---corporate board rooms won't allow it.

Personally, I think 2D fans are overly concerned with how many dimensions games are and not concerned enough with simply finding games they enjoy.

A 2D sonic game could work if it was done like Gradius V was done (i.e. 2D gameplay but surrounded by 3D graphics). Maybe. But I'd still doubt it. It's not like Gradius V flew off the shelves and I consider it my favourite PS2 game that happens to be 2D.