Anyone else get their GTA San Andreas settlement checks yet?

[Bojay1997]

This is total bullshit. It is victimless.

For one thing, if companies raise prices of new games, it sure as hell won't be because of this lawsuit or any other. It'll be because of rising development and marketing costs.

Since when was a poorly done, only available by hacking mini-game "taking risks in what they develop"? Last I checked, hiding the mini-game is not taking a risk. It was a mistake not removing it from the game entirely. Also, the lawsuit was about sex, not violence. If you want the bar pushed on violence, it most definitely still is and no one gives a shit.

There is no cost. Consider it a freebie from our pussified society. Take your check, cash it and call it a fucking day.



Oh, you mean like Liberty City Stories, Vice City Stories, GTA Tales from Liberty City DLC, GTA Chinatown Wars....

As someone who early in my career used to work for a company that was put out of business by what was later discovered to be a frivolous lawsuit, I can tell you that it's a fact that meritless litigation kills jobs and innovation. Frivolous or meritless lawsuits also increase insurance premiums and the costs of litigation get passed onto the consumer directly and indirectly.

The only thing that was "victimless" here is the original situation itself. The mod couldn't even be accessed without going through all sorts of steps to download additional files, so it's not like nudity popped up and offended anyone.

I believe Norkusa committed perjury. While it is unlikely that his actions will result in punishment, I know that personally I would never deal with someone who had no problem lying and stealing from a company by committing perjury. I'm frankly shocked that people who have been members of the community here and gamers for many years would have no issue with committing a crime and further see no problem with someone doing so and then backtracking and lying about it here on the forum. There are lots of crimes which all of us could probably commit that won't result in punishment and just result in companies losing money (shoplifting, tort fraud, insurance fraud), but this is a community of gamers and collectors and we shouldn't condone or support conduct of that type.

[Porksta]

God I hate the term "victimless crime". The money would have gone elsewhere, so there is indeed a victim.

[98PaceCar]

This is total bullshit. It is victimless.

For one thing, if companies raise prices of new games, it sure as hell won't be because of this lawsuit or any other. It'll be because of rising development and marketing costs.

Sure, rising costs of development is one part of the puzzle. But I'm sure that each and every developer has a budget set aside just for lawyers and as cases like this mount, that budget will only increase. Who bears the cost of said increases, the end users. You can argue that it only cuts into the profits of the developer and on the surface, that's the immediate result. But it's naive to think that they are going to just laugh and write off the millions they lost due to this. It may not be made up on GTA IV, but it will be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere can only come from the end users, either in the form of increased prices directly or future product developed with a smaller budget. How can I be sure of this? Because the only way they make money is by selling product to gamers. That's the bottom line.

Since when was a poorly done, only available by hacking mini-game "taking risks in what they develop"? Last I checked, hiding the mini-game is not taking a risk. It was a mistake not removing it from the game entirely. Also, the lawsuit was about sex, not violence. If you want the bar pushed on violence, it most definitely still is and no one gives a shit.

There is no cost. Consider it a freebie from our pussified society. Take your check, cash it and call it a fucking day.

There is always a cost. Money doesn't just fall from the sky. I do agree with you that this is just another example of people whining until they get what they feel entitled to (re, the pussification of America). The whole lawsuit was pointless and a waste of resources as people that didn't like the content could just ignore it. Hell, they had to be an active participant utilizing illegal methods to even get to the content. But the costs of the defense as well as the costs of the settlement will eventually make it down to the end user. The more people that jump on the bandwagon, the more it costs everybody else.

[portnoyd]

Bojay, I really, really hope you are playing the "good cop" card to Nork's "bad cop" to show how ludicrous the whole situation is.

As someone who early in my career used to work for a company that was put out of business by what was later discovered to be a frivolous lawsuit, I can tell you that it's a fact that meritless litigation kills jobs and innovation. Frivolous or meritless lawsuits also increase insurance premiums and the costs of litigation get passed onto the consumer directly and indirectly.

Oh look. Bias. Please don't turn Nork into the personification of the lawsuit that made you lose your job.

I believe Norkusa committed perjury. While it is unlikely that his actions will result in punishment, I know that personally I would never deal with someone who had no problem lying and stealing from a company by committing perjury. I'm frankly shocked that people who have been members of the community here and gamers for many years would have no issue with committing a crime and further see no problem with someone doing so and then backtracking and lying about it here on the forum. There are lots of crimes which all of us could probably commit that won't result in punishment and just result in companies losing money (shoplifting, tort fraud, insurance fraud), but this is a community of gamers and collectors and we shouldn't condone or support conduct of that type.

Wow, get off your high horse. It's sad that you write off Nork for something so incredibly piddling considering his longstanding reputation as a community member and seller. To counteract your idiocy, I will never deal with you for anything. I don't want to get involved with someone who is such a holier-than-thou moron. Lord knows if I'm a day later than you expect shipping your item, you'll be calling me a thief faster than I can say hot coffee.

The good news is you have someone as saintly as yourself to buy from in the future to make up for it:

God I hate the term "victimless crime".

Not you again. You and bojay need to go have a law-abiding fuckfest somewhere else.

Sure, rising costs of development is one part of the puzzle. But I'm sure that each and every developer has a budget set aside just for lawyers and as cases like this mount, that budget will only increase. Who bears the cost of said increases, the end users. You can argue that it only cuts into the profits of the developer and on the surface, that's the immediate result. But it's naive to think that they are going to just laugh and write off the millions they lost due to this. It may not be made up on GTA IV, but it will be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere can only come from the end users, either in the form of increased prices directly or future product developed with a smaller budget. How can I be sure of this? Because the only way they make money is by selling product to gamers. That's the bottom line.

There is always a cost. Money doesn't just fall from the sky. I do agree with you that this is just another example of people whining until they get what they feel entitled to (re, the pussification of America). The whole lawsuit was pointless and a waste of resources as people that didn't like the content could just ignore it. Hell, they had to be an active participant utilizing illegal methods to even get to the content. But the costs of the defense as well as the costs of the settlement will eventually make it down to the end user. The more people that jump on the bandwagon, the more it costs everybody else.

I agree that the lawsuit in and of itself is so mindblowingly stupid that only Janet Jackson's tit can trump it.

However, I don't believe that such a large corporation such as Take Two would even flinch at a lawsuit like this after the assloads of dough they've made on everything GTA related, let alone all the other crap they publish. Because of that, I extremely highly doubt that it will ever be the primary factor for increasing costs of their future titles. They may cite it in press releases, but it will never be the sole or main reason.

The only reason anyone cares about this is the cost to the end user. We'll never see it. As it is, it took 20 years for a $50 NES game to turn into a $60 PS3 game (ignoring the $70+ SNES games...). Another price spike would be off the table. Odds on, developers and publishers will move costs and resources behind the scenes to make up for it.

And to prove that no one gives a shit beyond their own personal situation, has anything at all been done when a story surfaces about workers making these games working 80+ hour weeks for little pay? No. So is anyone going to care if these people get fired to make up for the lawsuit payout? Definitely not. They make a post on the internet, but when GTA5 comes out, you better watch the fuck out because they will run you the fuck over to get it regardless of how outraged they were months before.

[heybtbm]

Wow. Someone struck a nerve.

[portnoyd]

I fucking hate people who act like this. See also: that thread where porksta was being a total douche.

[Porksta]

Lol, after that post, I don't think you can call anyone a douche.

[98PaceCar]

I agree that the lawsuit in and of itself is so mindblowingly stupid that only Janet Jackson's tit can trump it.

However, I don't believe that such a large corporation such as Take Two would even flinch at a lawsuit like this after the assloads of dough they've made on everything GTA related, let alone all the other crap they publish. Because of that, I extremely highly doubt that it will ever be the primary factor for increasing costs of their future titles. They may cite it in press releases, but it will never be the sole or main reason.

The only reason anyone cares about this is the cost to the end user. We'll never see it. As it is, it took 20 years for a $50 NES game to turn into a $60 PS3 game (ignoring the $70+ SNES games...). Another price spike would be off the table. Odds on, developers and publishers will move costs and resources behind the scenes to make up for it.

And to prove that no one gives a shit beyond their own personal situation, has anything at all been done when a story surfaces about workers making these games working 80+ hour weeks for little pay? No. So is anyone going to care if these people get fired to make up for the lawsuit payout? Definitely not. They make a post on the internet, but when GTA5 comes out, you better watch the fuck out because they will run you the fuck over to get it regardless of how outraged they were months before.

I'm not sure that they would actually cite legal expenses as a reason for increasing the prices and honestly, I don't think they would try to push the prices any higher right now anyway. AS you said, it seems more likely that they would drop development budgets, at least on the non-triple A titles.

But I do think that the money lost is going to be taken somewhat personally by the people running the company/shareholders (if it's publically traded, I'm not sure of that). Even if it's just coming from a company on the surface, there are always people that are paid based on the performance of the company and lawsuits take away from their profit base. Like anybody else, they are going to do everything they can to protect that and/or increase it. It may not happen immediately and it may not be something that end users can actually see, but it'll be there.

[portnoyd]

Lol, after that post, I don't think you can call anyone a douche.

Douche.

But I do think that the money lost is going to be taken somewhat personally by the people running the company/shareholders (if it's publically traded, I'm not sure of that). Even if it's just coming from a company on the surface, there are always people that are paid based on the performance of the company and lawsuits take away from their profit base. Like anybody else, they are going to do everything they can to protect that and/or increase it. It may not happen immediately and it may not be something that end users can actually see, but it'll be there.

Point taken, but what I'm trying to get at is: will anyone (that being us, the gamers) really care even if it's there and we can't feel it? I will say an extreme no.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I'm offended by this entire thread.

Now where's my $33.74?

[unwinddesign]

A) To claim that such a crime is "victimless" is absolutely ludicrous. See exhibits B and C.

B) Frivolous litigation begets more litigation and so forth. Even if this doesn't result in settlements, this type of shit is a deadweight loss for society and results in a loss of time, money and energy that produces absolutely NOTHING of value for society. These resources could be better used elsewhere.

C) As an owner of Take Two's stock, this type of shit hurts shareholders. Also, the assertion that Take Two can afford this type of lawsuit because they make "assloads of dough" is hilariously incorrect.

Their net income has been negative for the past five quarters, and negative for the past four years, excluding fiscal year ending 10/31/08...which was the year GTA 4 came out. I don't think people realize how much Take Two is struggling, despite the fact that they make/publish some of the best games in the business.

D) Overall, in the grand scheme of things, is this relatively trivial? Certainly. Is this going to be the straw that breaks Take Two's back? Unequivocally, the answer is no.

However, does that mean we should we accept such lawsuits as a fact of life in the "pussified" society of the USA? I don't think so, either. I'm not passing judgment on the OP or anyone else involved in this thread.

If you were offended, then, as according to the law, you are entitled to your money. The real question here is not whether perjury was committed, or the severity of the lawsuit, but the precedent it sets, and what it does to the moral fiber of our society. Bit by bit, I see this litigation destroying our human capital -- innovation -- to engage in short sighted money grabs and blame games.

Those without vision are destroying the creative's ability to thrive and prosper. And that's what I think is really sad and disheartening about lawsuits such as this.

[portnoyd]

C) As an owner of Take Two's stock, this type of shit hurts shareholders. Also, the assertion that Take Two can afford this type of lawsuit because they make "assloads of dough" is hilariously incorrect.

I have to ask. Why are you a Take Two shareholder when:

Their net income has been negative for the past five quarters, and negative for the past four years, excluding fiscal year ending 10/31/08...which was the year GTA 4 came out. I don't think people realize how much Take Two is struggling, despite the fact that they make/publish some of the best games in the business.

[98PaceCar]

Point taken, but what I'm trying to get at is: will anyone (that being us, the gamers) really care even if it's there and we can't feel it? I will say an extreme no.

Ultimately, that is true. It's also very unfortunate that we allow lawsuits like this to happen as they will eventually lead to the decline of what we enjoy most. Not only in gaming, but in all aspects of our lives.

As dedicated gamers, we should be the ones beating the drum and saying that we do not agree with developers being sued due to content that others find offensive, unless we truly do find it offensive. We should have been the ones explaining to non-gamers just how difficult it is to access this content and that it wasn't an active part of the game like the media made it out to be. Each and every one of us is an ambassador to non-gamers and by either sitting idly by or worse, actively participating in lawsuits such as this, we're only hurting ourselves. It may not be totally apparent to us now or even in the near term, but there is impact.

[unwinddesign]

I have to ask. Why are you a Take Two shareholder when:

I'm not any more, so I should have said former shareholder. I purchased the stock in spring '08.

I was looking for a turn around play, since I knew they would be in the green with GTA 4. I didn't factor in that speculation was high when EA was going to buy them, so when unfortunately, that deal fell through, so the price dropped from like 26-27 to around 18-19. Everyone cooled on the stock, so when they finally released positive earnings (fueled by the then biggest entertainment launch ever) this was already factored in and the stock didn't bounce in any particular fashion. Then the financial crisis went into full swing and I got crushed further.

With a current market cap of ~900 million, I'd say the rights to the GTA franchise alone are probably worth that much, if you can acquire the development team with them, so it's probably not a bad deal at that price. Not to mention all their other franchises.

They just can't make money off all these great IPs because they delay the fuck out of every game they develop.

[/off topic]
[on topic]
Bottom line is, Take Two isn't a money generating machine; the GTA sales are deceiving as hell. It's because they give too much of a shit about quality (Carnival Games and 2K Baseball not withstanding). Ironically enough, Activision takes a completely different tactic and milks the fuck out of most of its games, and they make bank. Which is part of the reason our society should reexamine our core values and reward innovation a bit better. In my opinion, anyway...

[skaar]

I fucking hate people who act like this. See also: that thread where porksta was being a total douche.

Ah, you are of course referring to this one: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138366

Wherein I get my xbox banned for flashing the firmware on the hard drive and Porksta defends Nazi germany. That was a good one.

[Dangerboy]

And to think, 25 years ago we could have gotten settlement checks from Nintendo for leaving in a Minus World you couldn't escape even though you weren't supposed to be there anyway.

[portnoyd]

Ultimately, that is true. It's also very unfortunate that we allow lawsuits like this to happen as they will eventually lead to the decline of what we enjoy most. Not only in gaming, but in all aspects of our lives.

As dedicated gamers, we should be the ones beating the drum and saying that we do not agree with developers being sued due to content that others find offensive, unless we truly do find it offensive. We should have been the ones explaining to non-gamers just how difficult it is to access this content and that it wasn't an active part of the game like the media made it out to be. Each and every one of us is an ambassador to non-gamers and by either sitting idly by or worse, actively participating in lawsuits such as this, we're only hurting ourselves. It may not be totally apparent to us now or even in the near term, but there is impact.

Replace dedicated gamers with US citizens and developers with people/companies. Welcome to the US. It sucks and my god, do we need tort reform in the worst way. It's really, really sad that last winter, when the neighbors's kids came by to sled on my driveway, I had to go next door to their mother and make sure they knew that it wasn't 100% safe to do it with the septic ports in their path and if she could keep an eye out for them. In a sane world, I'd let them go nuts without any supervision. Let kids do what kids do and enjoy life before reality sets in. But in today's crazy landscape, they hurt themselves and this neighbor I don't know that well may sue me for unsafe conditions on the property that technically they were trespassing on.

AND THEY'D WIN.

Just to be clear, my point in previous posts is that while this lawsuit was completely out of our control (and completely out of control period), it's bullshit to fault Nork for taking advantage of it. The lawsuit was basically a lock well before anyone sent in their receipts. It's going to go down whether we like it or not. The choice is do you want $35 or not? Don't be angry someone is taking free cash.

I'm not any more, so I should have said former shareholder. I purchased the stock in spring '08.

Ah, gotcha.

[unwinddesign]

By not cashing the check, you're basically saying that you don't agree with the lawsuit. I see at as something of a vote.

If you cash it, you're one person that agreed that the content offended you and that the lawsuit was justified. You're casting a "vote" that you agree with this lawsuit, and this type of litigation as a whole.

[98PaceCar]

Replace dedicated gamers with US citizens and developers with people/companies. Welcome to the US. It sucks and my god, do we need tort reform in the worst way. It's really, really sad that last winter, when the neighbors's kids came by to sled on my driveway, I had to go next door to their mother and make sure they knew that it wasn't 100% safe to do it with the septic ports in their path and if she could keep an eye out for them. In a sane world, I'd let them go nuts without any supervision. Let kids do what kids do and enjoy life before reality sets in. But in today's crazy landscape, they hurt themselves and this neighbor I don't know that well may sue me for unsafe conditions on the property that technically they were trespassing on.

AND THEY'D WIN.

Just to be clear, my point in previous posts is that while this lawsuit was completely out of our control (and completely out of control period), it's bullshit to fault Nork for taking advantage of it. The lawsuit was basically a lock well before anyone sent in their receipts. It's going to go down whether we like it or not. The choice is do you want $35 or not? Don't be angry someone is taking free cash.

It certainly is a sad state of affairs and is only getting worse as time goes on.

I'm honestly not trying to attack Nork. I do think it's rather funny that he's claiming to have joined the suit due to being offended when it's clear he did it to get the money and not because he was actually offended. I can't say I didn't think about joining it myself. But for me, the money wasn't worth it when weighed against my conscience. For Nork, it clearly was. This is a case where I think he should have kept his head down, cashed the check, and gone on with life. At the very minimum, don't try to play it off that you were doing anything more than going for the money. I can at least respect someone for being honest about their intentions, even if I disagree with them.

Ninja edit: I would be careful with allowing a "me too" type of mentality in people. Nork may have been just a single person in a huge suit that was already a lock, but if you have enough single people involved, it gets bigger than intended in a hurry.

[portnoyd]

By not cashing the check, you're basically saying that you don't agree with the lawsuit. I see at as something of a vote.

If you cash it, you're one person that agreed that the content offended you and that the lawsuit was justified. You're casting a "vote" that you agree with this lawsuit, and this type of litigation as a whole.

Vote against something already decided or $35? I like free money. To each his own. After all I've seen in my short by comparison time, I've realized that my voice doesn't matter. However, $35 is $35.

I'm honestly not trying to attack Nork. I do think it's rather funny that he's claiming to have joined the suit due to being offended when it's clear he did it to get the money and not because he was actually offended.

Oh, most definitely not directing my last comment at you.

Nork probably shouldn't have played the "Of course I did/didn't!" route but it's no reason for someone else to say you'll never deal with him on these boards because of it.