How long do CD-based games last?

[James8BitStar]

I have had absolutely no success making working backups of my Sega CD and PC-Engine games, so I at least want to know how long each game will naturally last before it just naturally degrades.

So how long will I have to look forward to?

Thanks in advance.

[boatofcar]

We had a thread on this a while back, but unfortunately since "cd," "bit," and "rot" are all under the mandatory 4 characters for search, I can't find it.

[kedawa]

You shouldn't have too much trouble making working backups since there's no copy protection whatsoever on those systems.
Just burn an exact duplicate on the lowest speed possible.

[G-Boobie]

Assuming you don't scratch them, burn them, break them in half, or coat them in some noxious chemical, they'll last until the disc itself breaks down. So, longer than the consoles that actually play them.

Here's the wiki on Optical Media Preservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_media_preservation#Storage_of_optical_disc s). If you take care of your games and store them properly, they'll be around longer than you are.

[108Stars]

AFAIK CDs last for 15 - 25 years, depending on the way they are kept. If you live in a climate like in the Amazonas they will most likely die after 15 years for example.

[Sothy]

15-25 years.... are you high?

[108Stars]

Why? That´s what studies said a while ago.

[alexkidd2000]

Why? That´s what studies said a while ago.

I think thats for blank media.

[108Stars]

I don´t think so. The mag I read this in was about this very topic, meaning that they were talking about full media. The data gets damaged little by little over time, and someday it is too much to read anymore.

CD-Rs and the likes will often don´t even survive 10 years.

[strassy]

i have a CD that is 24 years old (Mel Torme Swings Schubert Alley, 1984) and it still sounds brand new...i have a hard time believing it will suddenly cease to work within the next year.

i have many, many CDs that are at least 15 years old. if the 15-25 lifespan was accurate, at least SOME of them would no longer be working.

[thetoxicone]

i have a CD that is 24 years old (Mel Torme Swings Schubert Alley, 1984) and it still sounds brand new...i have a hard time believing it will suddenly cease to work within the next year.

i have many, many CDs that are at least 15 years old. if the 15-25 lifespan was accurate, at least SOME of them would no longer be working.

I've got a couple very early release cds as well and they work without any issues.

[exit]

CD-Rs and the likes will often don´t even survive 10 years.

I've heard something like that about blank media, but isn't completely true from what I've read over the years. As for "real" CDs not lasting more than so many years, that's complete BS and I'm sure that's easily backed up from many of the members on DP.

Both types will last as long as the owner takes proper care of them and doesn't do something silly like leaving them to bake in the sun.

[108Stars]

Well, I can´t tell from personal experience because my earliest CD is from 1994, but I can just say what I read.

[G-Boobie]

Well, I can´t tell from personal experience because my earliest CD is from 1994, but I can just say what I read.

I can only assume that the CD still works, which makes it 14 years old, which means you'd better play it quick. You've only got a few months left to enjoy it.

The fact is, optical media is pretty fucking stable: the data is encoded into a non-degradable, crystalline, polymer surface. We're not talking punch cards or magnetized tape, here. We're talking high grade plastics.

Don't scratch your media, don't bake your media, don't submerge your media, and you'll be fine.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Any optical media will be rendered a coaster through other means (scratches, spontaneous disk drive explosion or a microwave sparkler) long before it physically degrades into one. From what I recall, optical disks can last hundreds of years if nothing unfortunate occurs.

[James8BitStar]

You shouldn't have too much trouble making working backups since there's no copy protection whatsoever on those systems.
Just burn an exact duplicate on the lowest speed possible.

I tried that.

I also tried using different programs--including some fan-made SPECIFICALLY for backing up SCD and PCE games--and following all the available online guides to the letter.

Every burn I made was imperfect, in the worst cases to the point where the burn was unplayable. The problem seemed to always be that the Sega CD and PCE couldn't find the right track for music or data and would just spend forever loading after a certain point.

Anyway, this post has reassured me that the worst thing I have to look out for is human stupidity. I'm certainly not gonna play frisbee with my disks anytime soon.

[Cryomancer]

Maybe you were ripping/burning wrong. Use the darkwater method ( http://darkwater.free.fr/v2/index.php?page=news but they apparently moved ot a wiki now and some info is sorta not there...) and make sure to stay bin/cue (for sega cd at least) and you should have success.

[James8BitStar]

I did BIN/CUE as per the instructions on a page called... Racketboy? I think that was his name. Something like that. I even used some program called Sega CUE Maker.

Darkwater doesn't seem to have much of their information up.

[InsaneDavid]

Best way to duplicate a SCD game is to use "Copy Entire Disc" or something similar in the burning software of your choice. You'll put the SCD game in, it'll read it, then it'll want a blank CD-R and will burn a 1-to-1 duplicate. No need to screw around with downloads and BIN and CUE files. It is true, however, that some games such as Lunar The Silver Star will not load if the audio tracks are of different length than it is looking for - a problem with a lot of downloads of said game.

1-to-1 copy your originals, simple as that.

[Flack]

"How long will my CDs last" is like asking "how long will I live." There are a bunch of variables involved (in both, actually).

I was just preparing a blog post on the topic of bit rot, which was inspired after I discovered several of my oldest CD-R discs recently stopped working. Many early CD-R disks are susceptable to "flaking" -- the gold layer will just start peeling off, and when that happens it's all over. Another type of bit rot is CD Bronzing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_Bronzing), which affected several labels of the late 80s and early 90s.

As a general rule, store bought (or "pressed") CDs will last longer than burned discs. If you haven't lost any CDs yet, well, lucky you. As someone who's seen it first hand, I can tell you it sucks after thinking that CDs lasted forever.

[Flack]

We had a thread on this a while back, but unfortunately since "cd," "bit," and "rot" are all under the mandatory 4 characters for search, I can't find it.

An easy solution is to use Google. Google for "bit rot" site:digitpress.com

Here's one of several old threads on the subject:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33676

[oesiii]

I was just preparing a blog post on the topic of bit rot, which was inspired after I discovered several of my oldest CD-R discs recently stopped working. Many early CD-R disks are susceptable to "flaking" -- the gold layer will just start peeling off, and when that happens it's all over.


That just happened to me this week. I found a stash of my earliest CD-R disks from 98 or 99 and they were very flaky around the edges. One had some PC games I wanted to check out so I put it in the tray and it read the data just fine but I'm not going to try the rest or else I'll junk up my drive.

But my guess is that cheap CD-Rs are lucky to last 10 years with commerically pressed CDs lasting a little longer. But I'm not too worried about most of the junk I have on CD-Rs, mostly games and apps.

But it does get you to thinking of documents that you may want to save like a thesis or family photos. I have those backed up on USB hard drives but for the photos I want to get around and getting more of them developed.

[108Stars]

So thankfully I am not crazy it seems; I found it hard to believe CD´s will last forever, and in the case of cheap CD-Rs I know they die even if taken good care of. I made a back-up of my Dragon Warrior VII for example; I tested it after burning and it did work perfectly fine. It was never used again, but recently I found that it is working no more. Well, at least my original still works.
But I fear the day that some of my most beloved games will eventually die....

[James8BitStar]

Best way to duplicate a SCD game is to use "Copy Entire Disc" or something similar in the burning software of your choice. You'll put the SCD game in, it'll read it, then it'll want a blank CD-R and will burn a 1-to-1 duplicate. No need to screw around with downloads and BIN and CUE files. It is true, however, that some games such as Lunar The Silver Star will not load if the audio tracks are of different length than it is looking for - a problem with a lot of downloads of said game.

1-to-1 copy your originals, simple as that.

I've tried that too.

In fact its safe to say that I've tried everything short of asking Sega and NEC themselves to copy the disks. Nothing has worked and I'm not even sure why.

Funny thing is a friend of mine burned a lot of Sega CD games and according to him his copies worked just fine. I might ask him to do it and see how that pans out.

[oesiii]

Sega CD games are usually very easy to copy but if yours never worked then I would suspect a problem with your OS drivers and your burner and its firmware. I've had burners that have refused to copy certain types of disks over the years and sometimes it doesn't get fixed until I get a new burner.

One thing I do these days is buy a burner that's been out a few months at least and read up on good forums like Afterdawn to make sure it copies and makes the DVDs or CDs that I will likely be creating.

[kedawa]

You're either using shitty media or your burner doesn't support raw burning.

[Poofta!]

You're either using shitty media or your burner doesn't support raw burning.

i was just about to say this, 8bit, the reason youre failing is cause youre either using a crappy burner or crappy media. (im assuming you tried different media, so tis the burner!)

[James8BitStar]

Yeah I'm kinda going for the "burner" thing too, even though I've used two different ones. Anyone got a list of burners they know for a FACT can do 1:1 backups of Sega CD and PC-Engine games?

[InsaneDavid]

Yeah I'm kinda going for the "burner" thing too, even though I've used two different ones. Anyone got a list of burners they know for a FACT can do 1:1 backups of Sega CD and PC-Engine games?

I've had absolutely no problems with my Lite-On LTR-52327S (http://www.techwarelabs.com/reviews/storage/liteon_52x/), best burner I've ever owned. I've had it for a few years now and it burns everything I've thrown at it - including those years of selfboot Dreamcast stuff when I was working on BoR and emulation testing.

[j_factor]

I've yet to hear of anyone losing commercial CD-ROM games to bit rot. My copy of Monster Lair for Turbo CD (1989, one of the earliest CD-ROM games) shows no sign of wear.

[slackur]

I feel a bit like the party-crasher here, but my experience is unfortunately far different than most of the other posters here.

I have a collection of several thousand cd/dvd games, from tg16cd to xb360, and I have always taken excellent care of my games. As I was relisting my collection on
rfgeneration, I began the laborous task of checking the condition of every game in my collection, and that's when your classic horror story began. I noticed data-rot (from tiny pinprick holes you have to hunt for, to the rarer peppered-like-a-starfield scattershot of see-through holes) in dozens of my games. Some of them won't even play anymore.

Some of the important notes about this include:

-many of these games I bought new and opened them myself

-I have data rot holes in games from different generations and systems (including PC-Engine originally new Dracula X imported well over a decade ago, a Sega CD Eternal Champions, Saturn Panzer Dragoon II Zwei, 3D0 Hell, and PSX G Darius, just to name a few.)

-I don't run a museum, but all my games have always been kept at optimum temperature, out of sunlight, on shelves, and carefully and gently used (played and then put back in the case

-almost all of these games have no scratches or any other indications that they won't play. It took a few different games that suddenly wouldn't play before I started holding them up to good light and noticed the data rot.

-All of these are original copies, most store-bought new, not cd-r's.

Now I will be forever paranoid about not only my current collection, but purchasing classic optical-disc games online. I fear replacing Panzer Dragoon Saga (mine was stolen, not data-rotted) online, getting it home, and seeing a tiny hole in one of the discs, and worse, not being able to communicate to the seller why I would not want it.

This has been a bit of a personal horror story for me, and while I love to play and collect games, it has led to a new version of care and paranoia about collecting older cd games.

Now I have to track down hundreds of dollars worth of games to restock my collection, and it's far less likely I'll find them in the wild where I can actually check the discs.
Hope I find a PDSaga in person one day...

[James8BitStar]

So far the only game I have that has holes in it is Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective for the Sega CD, and the game was bad when I got it.

David, I'm looking into that Lite-On you listed. Are there any other factors besides media and burner which could affect the outcome?

[cyberfluxor]

slackur:
Wow, sorry to hear about that. Now you're making me feel a bit paranoid considering all of the older PC and console games on CD I own. Apparently LDs will go bad quickly as well and am quite happy that none of mine have thus far. I do own quite a few CD-Rs that have flaked up or easily become useless if the cover even touches a slightly rough surface. This is why many of my more played PC games are ripped and loaded as ISO/BIN, to avoid dropping and destroying a disc. Funny thing is I have floppy disks from the early 80's that still have perfect data on them and 10-20 year old VHS tapes with playback of quality as if they were recently produced. Maybe in a few years there will be some collective effort to discover which games are more susceptible to rotting.

[James8BitStar]

While we're on the subject of preserving games, what would be the best thing for long-term preservation?

Someone on another forum told me there were "Gold DVDs" that are supposed to last 300 years. Anyone confirm or deny?

[cyberfluxor]

While we're on the subject of preserving games, what would be the best thing for long-term preservation?

Someone on another forum told me there were "Gold DVDs" that are supposed to last 300 years. Anyone confirm or deny?

A bit of this topic (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111082) was discussed not too long ago. Joe referenced this (http://pcworld.about.com/news/Jun152004id116473.htm) article which may explain some aspects but not all. Also as to some clarification on the subject, check out the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_rot) entry about some various kinds of rot and their causes. I don't know of a source that supports the Gold theory but some on here have claimed it's a scam and have the same quality as high-end CD manufacturers.

[slackur]

I certainly would hate to argue with Joe's statements or anyone with technical knowledge calling data/bit rot a myth. I know there are plenty of people with large collections who don't seem to have a problem.

But I know what has happened to me, and I cannot explain it any other way than the data rot theory. I know what conditions the games have been in from purchase until now (many new,) and I know that not only early turbo cd/sega cd copies of mine have data rot, but so do some of my Dreamcast (including a purchased new Marvel vs Capcom) and Playstation games. I do not know of any better care I can take of my media collection, and something has happened to a small percent of them. Games that never had pin-sizes holes in the data layer now have them. In good light you can see through a tiny spot on the disc. And it really saddens me.

I have explained this problem to some of my other collector friends, and many have started to look through large cd game libraries and experienced similar fates. In fact, a few refuse now to even check their own collection for fear of what they might find!

I had to really look for the little holes on some of the titles, but once I knew what to look for, I started finding them more and more, and the mystery of why a bought new game with no scratches would suddenly not work after so many years. I understand that those who may have not experienced this problem personally (Joe, maybe) would have trouble believing in data rot, after all plenty of technical posting list explanations of why it is a myth, outside of the earliest discs.

But, data rot or something exactly like it has happened to my collection, and a few others once I pointed out what to look for, and I feel that these forums are the best place to share my story. If anyone has alternate theories to explain the little pin-sized holes, I feel we all need to hear.

Sorry, just had to get that off my proverbial chest...

[InsaneDavid]

David, I'm looking into that Lite-On you listed. Are there any other factors besides media and burner which could affect the outcome?

Shit, sorry, I lost track of this thread. Aside from not screwing around with your computer while burning something, not really. Seriously though, I don't care how fast or great someone's computer is - just let it burn without other crap running in the background. Get up, go take a piss, come back and it'll be done. This goes double for compiling selfbooting Dreamcast images with DiscJuggler - don't even touch the mouse when doing that.

CD-R's made in Japan usually give better quality than their Taiwanese counterparts. TDK is alright but is usually a mixed bag. Memorex is generally crap. Maxell CD-R Pro are usually solid quality as is Verbatim. Imation media is decent but tends to be inconsistent, however it can be damn cheap (50 discs for $5.00 every now and then) for weekly backups of projects and things like that.


Apparently LDs will go bad quickly as well and am quite happy that none of mine have thus far.

It's the damn glue they used to bind the LDs together.

I think part of the problem that slackur speaks of concerning mint, well taken care of games going bad on their own has to do with storage - period. As in not being removed from the case and being used, just sitting in the same spot with the same air and conditions. I'm sure we've all cracked open a sealed classic game at one point that looked to be in perfect condition only to find a rippled booklet, oxidized connector board, or something similar. All things need to breathe and just as a book can deteriorate sitting on a shelf, I'm sure a game can break down just the same, especially since most of the time the discs are neatly packed inside their jewel case coffins with a said paper product - the manual. Take your CD games out and give them a spin every now and then.

[Poofta!]

dave i agree with you to an extent. i do think its definitely the way slackur stored his games. maybe its verticle vs horizontal. maybe its the wood that the shelf was made out of , maybe its the temperature/humidity of the room (or maybe humidity only lasted for several months but was enough to leave residue).

i have many old pc games and sega cd games, all of which look brand new. so again, i think this is a very isolated incident that had some external causes

[G-Boobie]

I certainly would hate to argue with Joe's statements or anyone with technical knowledge calling data/bit rot a myth. I know there are plenty of people with large collections who don't seem to have a problem.

But I know what has happened to me, and I cannot explain it any other way than the data rot theory. [...]


I had to really look for the little holes on some of the titles, but once I knew what to look for, I started finding them more and more, and the mystery of why a bought new game with no scratches would suddenly not work after so many years. I understand that those who may have not experienced this problem personally (Joe, maybe) would have trouble believing in data rot, after all plenty of technical posting list explanations of why it is a myth, outside of the earliest discs.

But, data rot or something exactly like it has happened to my collection, and a few others once I pointed out what to look for, and I feel that these forums are the best place to share my story. If anyone has alternate theories to explain the little pin-sized holes, I feel we all need to hear.




There are only a couple of things I can think of to account for your problem. One, is that something is wearing away at the top of your discs, which can lead to problems with the discs being read by the laser and would also account for the visible 'holes' you've discovered; the holes themselves would then be, in reality, spots worn thin in the decal. Another possibility is that you've been repeatedly screwed into buying really crappy pirate 'burn' discs and the dye is breaking down en masse, and it's taking the actual physical part of your discs with it out of spite.

Any game that's a genuine, factory-made disc is going to be a 'pressed disc'. This means that the CD or DVD is created by imprinting the data on to the disc using hydraulic pressure. The problem with the idea of visible 'bit rot' in factory pressed discs is therefore pretty straightforward: pressed discs cannot degrade the way you've described. They can't. Pressed discs are made of aluminum and very pure polycarbonate plastic: two very stable materials with shelf lives measured in decades(proper storage allowing, of course). There is absolutely no organic matter to degrade: this is the magic of technology. There are a few blatant examples of manufacturers screwing up and causing physical breakdown of pressed discs-Flack mentioned the dreaded CD bronzing incident already- but those are well-known and to my knowledge have not been repeated. The dye in rewritable media is an entirely different story, however, so I suppose that could be your problem.

I hang out with, know, work with, and am generally aware of literally hundreds of professed media junkies. I myself have thousands of pressed discs and have never encountered your problem: in fact, I just checked two hundred discs from my collection from all eras of disc-based media and didn't encounter a single 'pin hole'. A quick click on AIM and the IM network at work confirms that no one else I know has ever had this problem.

The orientation of the discs in storage, horizontal or vertical, is irrelevant. The residue left by humidity or chemical exposure would affect the discs in a far more obvious and blatant way... DO you work with a lot of chemicals?

[Ed Oscuro]

An easy solution is to use Google. Google for "bit rot" site:digitpress.com

Here's one of several old threads on the subject:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33676
I recall those threads were unfortunately tainted with drama and not a lot of firsthand knowledge about the subject. I look forward to your article; sorry about the rotted discs, though!

[James8BitStar]

Ugh I've been using Memorex (both as Burner and Media) for years. Maybe that's my problem.

Also I burn with Nero. Is that a problem?

I'm all but set to order one of those Lite-On drives now. Wanting to see if I can find it in a store first.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I use CDrWin and Disk Juggler for DC stuff. For me the CD-R of choice is Maxell CD-R Pro. Before, I used Phillips and TDK (supposedly high grade stuff)... until I got tired of making coasters. I still have an old burned disk that still works (burned 1998) but it's just data backup from an old computer and it reads real slow. Interesting enough the disk was made by Acer. Weird.

[Nodtveidt]

I use several versions of Nero for burning PCE backups, never had a problem. My drives are an HP dvd840i and an Optiarc CD-RW CRX880A. I generally use Memorex discs but have used other brands as well. I have had a great number of Fujifilm discs go bad so I avoid them. The problem here is that since we used to live so close to the ocean, the air was very harsh and will oxidize things far quicker than if we were to live inland. Everything metal rusts in short order, even appliances (the top of our chest freezer, which is barely 3 years old, is covered in rust, and it's been inside since the day we bought it). Since moving to a different town though (further away from the ocean), we've had very little problem with it. So then, looking back on a few discs I've had, both pressed and burned...many Fujifilm CDRs have died, a few Memorex discs have died, and a great number of "no-name" discs have died due to holes in the surface (during storage!). I've lost quite a bit of work due to that. My copy of Dark Wizard for the Sega CD died in storage, as did my copy of Roller Coaster Tycoon for the PC and my copy of Parasite Eve for the Playstation. I've yet to have a PCE, Saturn, or PS2 disc go bad but it's only a matter of time.

Oh, almost forgot...the harsh sea air here on the island also killed my Sega Genesis. I went to power it up one day and all I got was a black screen (and this was attached to the Sega CD, so it wasn't a cart issue). So then I went to try a cart...same problem. Opened her up...rust all over the shielding and corrosion on the motherboard. Dead as a doornail.

[slackur]

*sigh*

I wish I could figure this out.

-Well, B-Boobie, I've never really worked with any serious chemicals, and I don't use much in terms of cleaners in my media room (except occasionally goo-gone and stuff to get stickers off classic plastic, but those are away from the cds)

-InsaneDavid, Poofta, I don't know what I'd have done wrong in terms of storage. My collection gets randomly played every weekend. The majority of the discs are stored vertically. I open every cd/dvd game I own at least once every two or three years, and cases themselves get shuffled every time I re-alpha for new games. The entire collection has gone through about a dozen different shelving systems over the years. So, stuff definitely gets moved, but very carefully. Also, I am very careful to keep this stuff at the correct temperature. Any ideas?

-G-Boobie, I wish that cheap pirated games could account for it, but I generally buy from retail (working in game stores for the discount/freebies) and I've got newly purchased cd/dvd games from several stores (even purchased in different states) over several generations of game machines, and the problem seems to have randomly affected discs across nearly the entire spectrum of my collection. I know this seems to leave storage as the main culprit, but I'm COMPLETELY at a loss as to what would have happened there. And as for factory-pressed discs not able to degrade and "pin-hole" (since the bronzing issue, anyway) I know what I've read and heard about it not able to happen, but I know the current state of my collection. Also, I know at least four other collectors who have experienced similar issues as mine, and two of us lived elsewhere (including other states) so I can't isolate location/humidity as a culprit. We're in Pennsylvania, under proper air conditioning and heat.

Sorry, I'm sure I might come across as frustrating over this, but I just simply wish I could figure it out! I would completely admit fault if I found something I had done wrong, but for the life of me I still don't know what it could be, and until I know, I'm going to be left annoying folks by picking brains over a situation that by all accounts reflects the urban legend/myth of data-rot.

Not to sound pompous or negative, but anyone with a scope of knowledge on the subject living near the Erie, PA area is welcome to stop by and offer their thoughts after reviewing what I'm talking about and viewing it firsthand. I'd even try to get some of my fellow collectors this also affected to bring some of their case examples over. And, dare I say, we could but a few classics in for a spin just for fun ;)

I'd still like everyone to continue asking or prompting ideas on what happened/is happening, Lord knows I want/need to know. I know what people say it CANNOT be, I need to know then what it IS! The only reason I say data-rot is that the story explains it better than anything else I know, not because I have to cling to the idea that it is true. I want to honestly know.

Bleh.

Thanks for the help so far, guys.

[pugmagician]

I actually live just about an hour and a half south of you (Hermitage, PA), but I have never had any problem with disc rot (of pressed games that is) myself. Though something that might be affecting it is the humitity, I know it gets rather humid in our neck of the woods, and I'm pretty sure that can be a factor to rot. You should really invest in a dehumidifier and run it where you keep your cd based games, I know that damn thing will fill up rather fast I've had to have one in some places I've lived because of the humitity.

[slackur]

I know what you mean, Pugmagician. I've always had to monitor our home's humidity, though. Not just for the collection, but because I can't sleep well in even slight humidity, and I've got two little ones and a wife who hates humidity as much as me. The media room is where we spend the most time anyway, so it has always been the most temp/humidity controlled place everywhere I've lived. My collection has always existed in temp/humidity well within the normal limits posted for disc care. And nothing else that could easily be damaged in humidity (my pc/electronic repair stuff, strat guides/instructions for games, etc.) seem to have any problem. Even my paper boxed stuff has survived well, given the normal deterioration of that kind of material. Long story still too long, I don't think it is humidity. But thanks for the suggestion.

And, if you ever know you'll be in the area, send me a message and we can throw a game in. Weekends are almost always gametime at my pad :)

[pugmagician]

I've got no other idea's myself then on how that could be happening to your collection then, other than maybe bad presses (though I'm very sorry for your losses in it, I know how I'd feel if some of mine just became bad like that). Also I may take you up on that offer sometime, my wife and I will travel up there every once in a while to go hunting for games, yours is a good area to find rare/pricy stuff cheap. My wife is also a gamer and she'd probably like a little social activities with fellow gamers. My wife and I are both truck drivers so we don't see many people.

[noname11]

Ive had quite a few pressed discs go bad... strangely enough, all dreamcast games

3 sonic adventures (but i heard there was manufacturing issues with this title)

1 powerstone 2

1 Marvel vs Capcom 2.

the last two worked on a few occasions, then quit working completely on all my dreamcasts.

and yet my badly scratched up previous rental psone games play back fine , go figure..

[slackur]

noname11, I had the same problem with several DC games, including Sonic Adventure, Hydrothunder, and Blue Stinger. Unfortunately, all three of those (and Ready 2 Rumble, I think) were confirmed bad presses and had known issues on the first print run. I don't count those as the same problem as the pin-holes in my other discs. I do have a "data-rotted" MvC 1 and PowerStone, though, among others (makes me cry, I love both those games. MvC was store-bought new.)

Pugmagician, my email is elison777@yahoo.com if you ever get to stop by. My wife is also a gamer and would love to have other 'gamer chicks' to hang out with ;) Just drop me a line anytime.

[Poofta!]

Ugh I've been using Memorex (both as Burner and Media) for years. Maybe that's my problem.

Also I burn with Nero. Is that a problem?

I'm all but set to order one of those Lite-On drives now. Wanting to see if I can find it in a store first.


try to get it on newegg.com

you can get a lite on dvd burner for like 40 bucks now


I use CDrWin and Disk Juggler for DC stuff. For me the CD-R of choice is Maxell CD-R Pro. Before, I used Phillips and TDK (supposedly high grade stuff)... until I got tired of making coasters. I still have an old burned disk that still works (burned 1998) but it's just data backup from an old computer and it reads real slow. Interesting enough the disk was made by Acer. Weird.

ive always used nero. and try to use TDK as much as possible. i have yet to burn a coaster that wasnt my fault (i caused: shoddy image, bad drivers, atapi problems etc). and ive been burning media for about 8 years now. ( i know a lot of you probably been doing this longer)

[Poofta!]

slackur, you actually sound rather upset and distraught, not pompus or mean in any way. i feel for you, i would be devastated if some of my favorite games, that i invest hard earned cash in (as well as time in searching) were to go bad.

sorry man, i do wish we find something out, and prevent this from happening.


on a side note, i live in coney island, brooklyn, nyc. right across the street from the ocean. my room is often exposed to rather cold temperatures and humid/hot climate in the summer, as im not always home to leave the AC on and if i do the AC freezes in side and starts spewing water everywhere (wtf?).

my games used to be kept in the open for about 2 years and have spent about a year now in a wooden closet which has a constant warm temp. ive looked through some of my oldest cd games and havent noticed anything.

also, my sega cd games where kept by the window for years (2ish), where they were in very cold and hot temperatures, and still ok

[Poofta!]

quick note: i just opened up a pack of DVD+Rs that i bought (sony brand) and the insert says that they should be stored in temperatures ranging from 23-122F and 5%-90% humidity. those are very wide operating ranges... would factory pressed CDs be the same? then we can strike out temperature/humidity causes since i doubt anything in his collection was exposed to anything beyond that?

[InsaneDavid]

For me the CD-R of choice is Maxell CD-R Pro. Before, I used Phillips and TDK (supposedly high grade stuff)... until I got tired of making coasters.

TDK is way too dependent on country of origin, almost like Memorex a few years ago (but never that bad). Sometimes you get good grade media, sometimes it's total crap. However if you can find a good string of TDK media it'll hold up well and won't cost you all that much.

[digitalpress]

I've stayed out of this thread because it actually made me think through it all again - doubt the integrity of some of my older CD games. So I picked three games that have been listed here as "data rot" contenders and with somewhat of a lump in my throat, fired them up.

PCE Dracula X - this one was the most frightening because I really don't want to have to spend 100-200 dollars on a game again. Whew, at least up until the third level, no issues. I also did my store-certified quality check: looking for the light to shine through from the data side while holding it up against the bright island lights. Lucky for me, none of the little "holes" I've seen on topside-scratch discs can be reported here.

3DO Hell - if any game were crappy enough to be put on crap media, this is it. Surely this game won't work and if it doesn't, I won't miss it. After waiting through numerous load screens, I finally got to the game. Then I waited through numerous load screens as I played the game. WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT. And yet, it seems to work as it did back in the 90's. Badly.

Dreamcast Marvel vs. Capcom 2 - I have my doubts that previous owners who found their disc "go bad" has anything to do with bit rot, and I've salvaged quite a few non-working MvC2 discs at my store with our disk resurfacer, but what the hell. Maybe MY copy is bad! Brought it to the store, tried it out on the Dreamcast kiosk. After winning 10 games and losing 23 (yes, I SUCK), I determined that my game is functioning fine.

So then I picked the OLDEST CD's I have. Maybe one of these would be a problem.

Depeche Mode Black Celebration Audio CD - sounds better than ever, actually.

TurboGrafx-16 CD Monster Lair - I think this was the first videogame CD I ever bought. At the time I thought the game really sucked. Playing it now on a Duo I have a little different perspective. This is actually a damn fine game. This experiment was revealing in more ways than one.

I'm not sure what was "proven" here, other than the fact that I have discs that work fine where others have stated these same games have broken down. Are my discs about to go bad? Who can say. When this topic comes up in another two months I guess I'll be compelled to try again.

[slackur]

Thanks for understanding, Poofta. It's not the end of the world to loose stuff, of course, but I've had people really gripe about how it's not data rot without telling me what it could possibly be.

Anyhoo, I can't say exact humidity for 100% of the time, but it's been comfortable for me and my family, and while I like it a little cool and as little humidity as possible, I don't freeze out or place the stuff that close to windows. I'm glad your stuff is o.k.!

[slackur]

Joe, I'm curious, have you ever seen pin holes or other strange little light holes in pressed media that couldn't really be explained by surface scratches (top or bottom?) I know you would be able to tell, and I would really like help on this!

I've worked several years in game retail in both mom/pop game stores and major retailers (gamestop *shudder*) and I see these same pin holes every now and then that don't seem to be due to scratches. Now, I know the condition many (most) people bring used games in to trade (ice skating ring practice), but this includes new stuff and has covered every cd/dvd format over the years.

Actually, until I began seriously researching the matter, I assumed data rot to be an understood problem between collectors. It wasn't until recently that I realized it was considered a myth by many media experts. I know the difference between bad presses, scratches, strange labels, even easily scratched top label discs, as well as the problems inherent in most home recorded disc.

I'm not out to prove data rot, just hoping to keep the discussion alive long enough to know how to keep more of my collection from deteriorating further, if possible.

That, and to know I'm not living in the twilight zone with this!

[noname11]

could cleaning agents be at fault for cd rot? I remember reading an article a while back that certain cleaning solvents intended for hard surfaces may render cds inoperable.

im thinking wood polish/hairspray/etc and some of the spray residue ends up on your games. Would this be possible? I know that my family likes to clean at no end, and my games are often near.

[slackur]

Well, the only cleaning agents I've used on optical media have been rubbing alchohol and a lens soft cloth for fingerprints and such. I dust, but I don't use any cleaner/polish in the media room.

If we take temp/humidity out, chemical exposure seems a likely candidate, but my collection hasn't really been exposed to anything harsher than isopropyl and feather dusters. Even the shelves have been either plastic or the cheapo pressed wood stuff from wallmart. Poor taste, sure (waiting to buy our house so I can build nice shelves) but nothing toxic as far as I know.

[Ed Oscuro]

When this topic comes up in another two months I guess I'll be compelled to try again.
Haha, try something different next time - do a running survey of all your games ;)

[Ed Oscuro]

Interesting enough the disk was made by Acer. Weird.
Not made, branded.

[G-Boobie]

It isn't going to be a problem with storage, how you clean them, or even humidity... This has to be a problem with the lacquer layer.

I did some research and came up with a load of references that point back to the infamous Philips CD bronzing issue. Go here (http://cdrot.com/info/why-are-cd-rotting-how-it-happens), here (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-05-05-disc-rot_x.htm), and here (http://www.foetusized.org/cdrot.html).

So yeah, I'm a douche. Sorry.

Either way, the condition isn't widespread; the condition apparently shows within a decade if it's going to show at all, and 'modern' pressing methods have solved the problem that caused it in the first place(apparently, the lacquer that protects the aluminum data layer wasn't immune to the sulfur in the printed manual, allowing the aluminum to corrode slightly.) You shouldn't worry too much about your current collection: if it hasn't happened to your classic games yet, it probably wont. As far as your games that are already bad .... Sorry guy.

There are isolated incidents with very specific print runs of modern DVD's and Blu-rays, but they all remain unconfirmed. Use Google to check them out: I'm over link quota for the day.

[alec006]

Just depends on how it was made and what material was used,plus what enviroment it is put to. Alfred Diblasi on youtube has a CD-R from 1996 and it still mounts perfectly. According to the companys who make them Regular CDs should last 25-50 years,even 100 according some,but i dont belive 100,but then again i have a Discovision Disc (Early Laserdisc) from 1977 and it still shows no signs of laserrot or anything else yet,same thing with a laserdisc i have from 1988,still no signs of any problems,plays like it was just made,but then again,i have no idea the lifespan of laserdisc.

[Icarus Moonsight]

It isn't going to be a problem with storage, how you clean them, or even humidity... This has to be a problem with the lacquer layer.

I did some research and came up with a load of references that point back to the infamous Philips CD bronzing issue. Go here (http://cdrot.com/info/why-are-cd-rotting-how-it-happens), here (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-05-05-disc-rot_x.htm), and here (http://www.foetusized.org/cdrot.html).

So yeah, I'm a douche. Sorry.

Either way, the condition isn't widespread; the condition apparently shows within a decade if it's going to show at all, and 'modern' pressing methods have solved the problem that caused it in the first place(apparently, the lacquer that protects the aluminum data layer wasn't immune to the sulfur in the printed manual, allowing the aluminum to corrode slightly.) You shouldn't worry too much about your current collection: if it hasn't happened to your classic games yet, it probably wont. As far as your games that are already bad .... Sorry guy.

There are isolated incidents with very specific print runs of modern DVD's and Blu-rays, but they all remain unconfirmed. Use Google to check them out: I'm over link quota for the day.

So, when I stored my disks outside their retail cases (as I do) I could have actually prevented this from happening? If that is the case, I'd just like to say :p to those that told me I was risking damaging my disks for oh so long. All my SCD and Saturn disks work fine (oldest console CDs I own) with no evidence of data layer damage. :D So, theoretically, where would the cut off be where "modern" pressing started and you have to watch for this on the older stuff?

[tom]

>>>>>How long do CD-based games last?<<<<<

It depends on the game really, some games last longer than others.....Sorry, couldn't help it :-)

[slackur]

It appears that the problem with my collection is not the same exact problem with "cd bronzing", as the discs I've rechecked do not have discoloration, or flecking on any layer, just the pin holes.

I remember researching this before and people using this to "prove" it was not disc rot. Sure, it might not well be, but it has to be something. I have the little pin holes, in some discs entire constellations of them, without any other signs of decay. This goes for games as new as Dreamcast, not just the Turbo CD/Sega Cd.

So, back to square one, I guess...

[skaar]

For only 49.99 I will sell you a miracle.

Through negotiation with the great Woz and his Tibetan monks, we have devised a divine formula that will GUARANTEE all of your CDs will NEVER go bad during your lifetime.

BUY NOW.

* also for the record: I've been burning CDRs since before they were sold at retail and I've never had a single disc or brand go bad that wasn't mistreated. I have a burned music CD from an MC Hammer tour promo guy and it still *shudder* plays great :D

The closest I've come is the $0.02 CDRs I used to get from some wholesaler in vancouver for disposable CDs (OS install discs/etc) and those had a tendency to flake before they came out of the package.

[Bratwurst]

I have two audio CDs purchased new from the late eighties that suffered the same fate as some of slackur's games. One practically looks like a star field when you hold it up to the light and is unplayable, the other just has a few pinpricks and surprisingly, still plays without a skip. Neither of these discs were abused, scratched or stored improperly.

G-Boobie's last post pretty much summarizes the rhyme & reason of this issue. It happens.

[LucidDefender]

The only CD-R media worth using for longevity is either the discontinued Kodak Gold CD-Rs(Mitsubishi Chemical), the original Verbatim Data-life Plus discs, or Taiyo Yudens.

For DVDs, Taiyo Yudens are your best bet for single-layer. Verbatims are too inconsistent from batch to batch, and use different media at times. For Dual-layer, Verbatim made in Singapore is the only media worth your money.

[tom]

I wonder if the Golden Record still works? It's over 30 years in space onboard Voyager.

[slackur]

Just curious, but is anyone here in game/media retail that can confirm my experience with occasional pinholes in otherwise normal media? Not refering to copied discs, or printed discs with flaky labels. I'm refering to normally pressed media that has developed tiny visible pinholes, often only one or two (they usually have to be examined closely.) I'm coming up on a decade of working in media retail, and my collection is not the only place I've witnessed this phenomenon. It is perhaps less than 1%, but even at that I've seen hundreds of these discs now.

Am I going crazy, staring a hole through these things, or can anyone else confirm this?

I was in a classic gaming store in Denver, CO about two months ago, and out of thirty or so CD games for various systems, I had to put back six of them because of this. I had to go to their back room to find a good light, because their store lighting was rather dim. Six games with no scratches or other damage did have these pinholes, and the sales guys were shocked, as they were very careful of the condition of the product they took in. One of the discs was a new sealed saturn game, and they let me open it before purchase after showing them the other five. It was the same way. The store guys were quite surprised, but confirmed what I found.

Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller?

*Twilight Zone music begins*

[CrimsonNugget]

So I was reading slackur's post thinking, "Heh, pin holes. Gimme a break." I did get really curious though. I brought like 3 legit Saturn games with me to school and had them next to me. So a couple of minutes ago I held Tomb Raider up to the light. Fine... Nothing unusual... Then I held up NiGHTS...

...
...
...

AAAAAAAH! PIN HOLES ALL OVER!

I mean, the game has been playing great. I emulate it with SSF because I don't have my Saturn here with me. It's disturbing that one of my favorite original Saturn games has the dreaded "pinholes" all over it. I don't really keep my games stored in vacuum-sealed cryogenic pods or anything like that, they have normal wear and tear. However, I do not treat my games badly.

Another interesting fact: I also live in PA, though I live in the southeast end. It is REALLY ODD that 1 of the 3 legit games I just happened to bring with me shows slackur's exact problem.

[G-Boobie]

I wonder if the Golden Record still works? It's over 30 years in space onboard Voyager.

No oxygen = no oxidization = probably OK.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The Star Field Virus strikes again! *Dun dun dun*

I can confirm a personal encounter with the condition now. Bought two SCD games from a thrift this weekend with pinholes. I suspected topside damage to be the culprit but, after inspection only one of the disks showed evidence of scratches on the top side (Wolfchild) the other (Final Fight CD) looked fine. Yet, the pinholes are there. The second look at Wolfchild showed that there were not just pinholes but also lines and swirls where light penetrated. I thought maybe the pinholes happened to both disks and Wolfchild just had extra damage. I'm sure Wolfchild will have issues as far as play but, I'm hoping the best for Final Fight since some say that sometimes they play just fine with the pinholes.

[Poofta!]

you guys should use CDCheck program to check integrity of your cds. sometimes some 'holes' or evil looking scratched will still be ok as far as data integrity is concerned. although it probably means you should backup asap.

[ice1605]

No oxygen = no oxidization = probably OK.

Gold will not oxidize, even on Earth. Gold is near the bottom of the activity series, and only oxidizes over very long periods of time, if at all (Gold and Silver are the only metals other than occasionally Copper that can be found pure in the crust). So, a gold record will still be fine here after 30 years, too.