Roundtable Top 100. Ever. [09/20/04 UPDATE]

[Arcade Antics]

Why no Metroid but Metroid Prime? Simple: Metroid Prime is an instant classic, the best game of 2002, etc. Metroid is a washed out relic that really wasn't all that fun to begin with.

??? Metroid Prime was the best game of 2002?

GTA:Vice City blows Metroid Prime away. LOL

And I'll take Metroid over Prime any day of the week. Especially on a Thursday. ;)

[buttasuperb]

Why no Metroid but Metroid Prime? Simple: Metroid Prime is an instant classic, the best game of 2002, etc. Metroid is a washed out relic that really wasn't all that fun to begin with.

Better games for 2002

Ikaruga
Metroid Fusion
GTA Vice
Madden 2003
Harmony of Dissonance

Probly more, but my memory don't work.

[AB Positive]

Let me blast off a few titles:

Civilization (PC/PSX) - - - -
Grand Theft Auto III (PS2) - - - -
Lemmings (Amiga, others) - - - -
RC Pro-Am (NES) - - - -
Unreal Tournament (PC) - - - -
Yoshi's Island (SNES) - - - -

and put my vote-off for a few more:

Donkey Kong aka Donkey Kong '94 (Game Boy) -
Goldeneye 007 (N64) -
Halo (Xbox) - (I can't stand this game in single player, but I love multi-player. I can't justify it for top-100 though)
Kaboom! (2600)
Lunar: Silver Star Story (Sega CD) - - (love this game, can't justify top-100 though)
Sega Rally Championship (Saturn) - -
Super Monkey Ball 2 (Gamecube) -
Tetris Attack (SNES) - - -


there we go, this should help push things along.

I see final fantasy 7 got the axe. *sigh* My favorite RPG. Oh well.

-Adam G

[digitalpress]

UPDATED.

At 140 titles now.

[Arcade Antics]

*bump* :)

[AB Positive]

I guess I can vote a bit more...

Baldur's Gate (PC) - - -
Contra III: Alien Wars (SNES) - - - -
Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) - - - -
Legend of Zelda, The: Ocarina of Time (N64) - - - -
Mechwarrior (PC) - - - -
Wipeout XL (PSX) - -
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter / Balance of Power (PC) - - - -

and it's getting harder and harder to actually vote on things now. All of these are great games but it's down to the nitty gritty now.

-AG

[Nature Boy]

I'll add another strike: DDR Max. It's a good genre but not top 100 material IMO.

We're definitely down to the nitty gritty. There are games on there I haven't played that I don't think belong but I won't vote for 'em 'cause I haven't played 'em. Maybe that's why the voting came to a halt?

Or maybe people are still too worried about getting games *back* ...

(BTW: I finally started playing Metroid Prime and I'd definitely have to rank it above Metroid and GTA: Vice City)

[digitalpress]

UPDATED.

135 titles.

C'mon, a LOT of you haven't participated yet. Look at the list again. Surely there are games on here that you've played and in your opinion do not belong on a "Top 100 Games Ever" list. Let's get this thing down to 100 so we can start replacing titles - passionately - with our favorites that are missing!

[Arrrhalomynn]

if you insist:

I can't possibly call these games bad, but I certainly wouldn't place them in my own top 100 list.

Chrono Trigger (SNES) -
DDR MAX (PS2) - - - -
Donkey Kong aka Donkey Kong '94 (Game Boy) -
Final Fantasy III (SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX) - - - -
Goldeneye 007 (N64) -
Guardian Heroes (Saturn) - -
Halo (Xbox) -
Legend of Zelda, The (NES) - -
Legend of Zelda, The: Link to the Past (SNES) - - -
Metal Gear Solid (PSX) -
NHL 94 (GEN) - - - -
Panzer Dragoon Saga (Saturn) - -
Phantasy Star IV (Genesis) - - -
Phantasy Star Online (Dreamcast) -
Point Blank (PSX) -
Saturn Bomberman (Saturn)
Soul Calibur(DC)
Street Fighter II Turbo (SNES/3DO) - - - -
Streets of Rage 2 (Genesis) -
Super Mario Kart (SNES) -
Super Monkey Ball 2 (Gamecube) -
Super Smash Bros. Melee (GCN) - -
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (3DO) - - -
Toe Jam & Earl (Genesis) - - - -
Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 - -
Twisted Metal 2 (PSX) -
Wipeout XL (PSX) - - -

[AB Positive]

*prepares an impassioned FF7 speech*

-AdamG

[Ed Oscuro]

Too far gone for me to even WANT to try, but I might anyways. That said, I'm not putting my name to this.

Gobs of obscure...stuff...no Shinobi or Shadow Dancer games...no Super Castlevania IV...and that's just from the letter S! You can tell I'm an action guy but there's something wrong when all of these games are completely missing. At least Super Metroid is in there (I missed it the first time looking through).

Also--no Makaimura titles whatsoever? Give me a break, you KNOW that Demon's Crest is one of the best action games of its type (somewhere between Castlevania SotN and the "Castleroids," and Super Metroid)

Now for the - votes:

Castlevania: SotN/Nocturne in the Moonlight, goodbye. That game still hasn't made me sit down and actually play through more than 2 hours into the game.

Rondo of Blood (PC-Engine Super CD-ROM^2, NOT Turbo Duo damnit!) is getting a - also. And yes, I own two copies, one of them sealed. I do know that game.

Mars Matris (DC) If this is even 100% as good as the arcade version, it's still not good enough.

Super Mario Kart didn't catch my eye back when I first saw it as the N64 did, and I'm usually quite open to old games that just happen to have worse graphics. No, that sort of pseudo-3D stuff on the Super Fami doesn't cut it for me.

I'd like to add every single one of those Atari arcade-to-console ports, but since I don't play the system I won't. That said, seeing an entry for "Robotron (7800)" gives me a headache x_x

[hydr0x]

mh i don't think Secret Of Mana and Chrono Trigger should be in there, SoM is good, but a game with a sometimes so crappy AIi (i don't know, have u all only played this with 3 real persons?) can't be in the all-time top100 and Seiken Densetsu 3 is just better, it deserves the spot more
Chrono Trigger is imho one of the most overrated games in history, nothing against the story, gameplay and so on, but the graphics, well they are just to small, replace it with Tales Of Phantasia

you should replace monkey island 1 with 3, really

Secret Of Mana -
Chrono Trigger -
Street Fighter II Turbo -
Half-Life -
Monkey Island 1 -
Planescape Torment -
Return Fire -
Tales of Phantasia +
Seiken Densetsu 3 +
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (PC) +
Descent 2 (PC) +
Dark Forces (PC) +
Monkey Island 3 (PC) +
Diablo (PC) +

[Kid Ice]

This is a tough part of the process, for this reason:

Out of those 130+ games, I've probably played about 90 of them. So I don't know what to choose to eliminate at this point. I've already voted off the ones I don't think are good enough.

For example, let's say I want to - Jumpman because it's not as good as the other games on the list that I've played. What's to say it's not better than the games I haven't played, such as Baldur's Gate or FF3?

I would suggest, at this point, a change in strategy. Start a new thread with the existing list. Let everyone pick their "top 25" from this list. Use everyone's top 25 to compile, say, a top 75 list. Then let everyone argue to get an additional 25 games added that have been eliminated. And there's your top 100.

ICE

[Ed Oscuro]

That sounds good, but digitpress said earlier "don't worry about the obscure titles" (I don't think FF3 is obscure, though, and it worries me that it's on a list when I haven't played it. I don't put my name to things easily!) I want to give his method a chance.

[digitalpress]

*cough*

I'm gonna give this "kill round" one more pass. Once this thread drops off the page again I'm going to cast my votes and leave you with 100 titles. I think everyone has waited in this holding pattern - ready to defend their favorite - for long enough!

So last call. We've got 135 on the list, 35 have to go! If you HAVEN'T voted already, now is the time!

[Nature Boy]

I'll step back up to the plate again. Time to be ruthless! And no explanations this time - I'm too lazy.

Baldur's Gate (PC)
Combat (2600)
DDR MAX (PS2)
Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX)
Food Fight (7800)
Mars Matrix (DC)
NHL 94 (GEN)
Night Stalker (Intellivision)
Street Fighter II Turbo (SNES/3DO)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (3DO)
Tekken 3 (PSX)
Terranigma (SNES import)
Xenogears (PSX) - - - -

[bargora]

More votes off the island:

Bubble Bobble
Point Blank
Venture

Votes cast against because there are two games in the series on the list. I'm haphazardly picking one game of the series, so feel free to redistribute these "nay" votes elsewhere in the series if I'm completely off here.

Le Chuck's Revenge: Monkey Island II
Shining Force (Gen)
Tetris Attack

[Kid Fenris]

A few more from me. Man, I can't believe I'm voting off Centipede . . .

Centipede (7800) - - - -
Combat (2600) - - - -
Dragonstomper (2600) -
Phantasy Star Online (Dreamcast) -
Populous (PC) –
Qix (5200/NES)
Shining Force CD (Sega CD) - - -
Super Smash Bros. Melee (GCN) - -
Wasteland (C64) - - -

[k8track]

Games I think should not be in the top 100:

Centipede (7800)--Although the 2-player mode makes it cool and unique, it's not top-100 good. I prefer the 5200 version much more.
Donkey Kong ('94) (GB)--Again, not top-100 good, although cool. It's got tons of new boards but nothing terribly special. I like the basic Colecovision version better.
Mike Tyson's Punchout (NES)--I definitely don't think this should be on there. I know it's a cult favorite, but I've never cared for it. There's nothing particulary special or innovative about it.
Night Stalker (Intellivision)--It pains me to vote this off, as I think it's a very cool game, but not top-100 cool. It doesn't represent the Intellivision as well as Burgertime and Utopia.
Super Mario World (SNES)--I don't think it's particularly special.
Yars' Revenge--I've never understood the cult status of this game. I didn't like it at the time, and although I do like it much better now, it's not top-100 good.

Games in danger of being voted off that I'd like to defend:
Wonderboy III: The Dragon's Trap (SMS)--Simply the best SMS game there is. This one should stay.
Incredible Wizard (Bally)--Voting this one off would be sacrilege! It's still wonderfully fun to play today.

The "I Can't Believe You Voted These Games Off They Should Be Restored" list:
Metroid (NES)--One of the all-time greats and still stands up today no matter what anyone else says. Brilliant; please bring back!
Rygar (NES)--Another spectacular game that really shows off the NES. Please restore! I'll fight for these two. These games made me love the NES.

Apologies all around for stepping on toes.

[Ascending Wordsmith]

It appears that this page dropped from the first page. In fact, I had to go to page three just to find it. Okay, Joe, slash the list to 100 and see what develops. :-D

[hydr0x]

mh ok will be similar to my last post

i don't think Secret of Mana should be in there, Seiken Densetsu 3 is just better, period. If SoM is in there, SD3 also has to be

Planescape Torment is not even worth the all-time pc-rpg top20, it's so faaaaar away from an all-time top100, really

monkey island 2 is better than 1, and 3 also is

i think Tales of Phantasia is superior to Chrono Trigger, so if CT is in there ToP should also be

Diablo (PC) is definetly missing in there, it was revolutionary and offered the most long-time-fun back then, and still

Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (PC) is also something i cannot understand it's not included, many people think this is the best adventure ever, only Monkey Island 2 is a true competitor

Descent (PC) was also revolutionary and is still fun

Dark Forces (PC) best atmosphere in a fps ever ;)

[digitalpress]

I'll second the Monkey Island statement and replace the original with "2", but I can't comment or disagree with the other statements. Thanks!

[Drexel923]

Let me just re-post my arguement along with a little backup.




I would like to 'trample' on super mario 64.

O_O :bad-words:

I can't believe Mario 64 got tossed...that game rocks...and I think it certainly should be on list. For being one of the first fully 3D games it had great control, gameplay, and fun that took a good while to be surpassed by another like it. Plus the awe factor alone when it came out should be enough. I still remember getting it on launch and being speechless as I played. This list is an atrocity. (sp?)

oh well...such is life.

I second this feeling. This game was the groundbreaker for all good 3d based action/adventure games you see today. I thought (and still think) this is one incredible game, and definitely deserves to be on the list.

If i'd have to pick a game to swap out it would probably be monkey ball 2. Don't get me wrong, I love that game, but I don't think that down the line I'll keep on coming back to it. After a while the excitement just fades. Also Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana are in my top ten all time game list so I would hope they stay, but of course this isn't just my list.

[IntvGene]

Ok, I'll give her a go...

I don't understand why we have Jumpman and Ultimate Wizard here for C64. Can't we choose the better one and add another great C64 game, Paradroid instead? I mean, these two games are very similar. Paradroid should be on there for its originality alone. The gameplay is stunning, and its a more than just a shoot-em up or action game, it's a combination of both, and from a design standpoint, it is far superior to the other one-dimensional games on the C64. The sound is good, the control is great as you can play and do all the actions just from a one button joystick. The graphics were outstanding for its time.

Terranigma is the only import I saw. I think that if this is the case, we should just remove it and call this a non-imports list. I am sure that I can argue about other imports that deserve to be there, but I think it only makes things more complicated.

Tekken 3? Yawn. Not worth it.

The PC choices are definitely weird. We are missing some great PC games, and have things like Planescape: Torment. That's ridiculous. While I am not sure that Diablo deserves to be there. I think that we're missing some great games (I am not a PC expert, so won't try to suggest them). OR, since we only have a three PC games, let's get rid of them altogether.

[buttasuperb]

Metal Slug 3 is better than Metal Slug

Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kic Icarus

[AB Positive]

Alright, there are only two games I find I have a problem with being on the list. But since I will get absolutly NOWHERE trying to take out PSO, let me go the other direction...


Halo. Great game, not top 100 material in my book. Reasoning? It was a 6 month rush job, and regardless of how fun the game is, it shows. With Bungee getting all the time in the world to make Halo 2, they'll make a true top 100 game.


Until then there is definitly a game that should take it's place, and it is Final Fantasy VII. This is my top PSX game of all time, top Final Fantasy of all time, and it revolutionised RPG by showing them where they all had to go with 3D. This game needs to be on there, Period.


Now let the flaming of trying to take Halo off begin.

-AG

[digitalpress]

OK I've "seconded" a few of the recent comments and have a few comments of my own.


Metal Slug 3 is better than Metal Slug

Agreed. I wasn't sure WHY 3 got voted out and the original remained other than people may not have played 3, but this choice seems clear.


I don't understand why we have Jumpman and Ultimate Wizard here for C64. Can't we choose the better one and add another great C64 game, Paradroid instead?

I definitely enjoy Paradroid more than Jumpman but I enjoy Ultimate Wizard more than any of them. Oh the hours I spent designing my own UW levels...
Still, I'm not going to touch this one because the change is too vague. I need to know specifically what you'd like dropped. Still, good food for thought.


Terranigma is the only import I saw.

I see Radiant Silvergun too.


If i'd have to pick a game to swap out it would probably be monkey ball 2

I like Monkey Ball 2 but I don't see it on a top 100 list either, whereas there are lots of good arguments for Super Mario World 64, as many have already noted, so I'll second this.

[IntvGene]

I don't understand why we have Jumpman and Ultimate Wizard here for C64. Can't we choose the better one and add another great C64 game, Paradroid instead?

I definitely enjoy Paradroid more than Jumpman but I enjoy Ultimate Wizard more than any of them. Oh the hours I spent designing my own UW levels...
Still, I'm not going to touch this one because the change is too vague. I need to know specifically what you'd like dropped. Still, good food for thought.

Well, I played alot of Jumpan and Jumpmand Jr., I never got hooked into Ultimate Wizard. But, I have read a lot of good reviews, so I will assume that it is the better game (just the level design alone). My vote would be to remove Jumpman and add Paradroid.

[Scoots]

I'd remove Ninja Gaiden and stick Metroid back in there. While I enjoyed both games and owned them both new in The Day, I've never seen Ninja Gaiden as anything but just another ninja platform game. Metroid on the other hand was an almost transcendant experience. The layout of the levels alternating between horizontal and vertical scrolling was great, something I don't recall seeing prior to that. The fact that it was a platformer but without a straight A to Z progression was another pleasant surprise. You could go roving all over and still come back to the first screen if you wanted. You can find weapon upgrades that you can chose whether or not to use. Give it some historical props for being one of the first code-based saves as well. And Jesus, the music.... That music is intense. Then you beat it and you get one of the all-time gaming surprise endings.

[Sylentwulf]

<shrug> Someone wake me up when Final Fantasy 7 gets put back on the list.

-_-

[kevincure]

Four of the top 10 games ever made did not make the list, and I don't know why not:

Super Mario World (SNES) is the best 2d platformer ever made, period. The game is huge, there's tons of variation, it's fantastic. (As an aside, I'm looking at my copy right now, and it's "Super Mario 64" not "Super Mario World 64").

Civilization II (PC) is the game I've played more than any other. The Civ series popularized the common genre that now includes the Age of series and Rise of Nations. The depth of the AI is tremendous.

Grand Theft Auto 3/VC (PS2): I know we're old school here, but these games really will have a lasting effect on how videogames are made, are easy to pick up and play and have great variety.

Gran Turismo 3 - this one goes without saying.

NBA Jam and Resident Evil: Code Veronica would both also make my list. I'd toss Utopia and Adventure, which simply aren't fun these days. Also Bard's Tale, for the same reason.

[hydr0x]

The PC choices are definitely weird. We are missing some great PC games, and have things like Planescape: Torment. That's ridiculous. While I am not sure that Diablo deserves to be there. I think that we're missing some great games (I am not a PC expert, so won't try to suggest them). OR, since we only have a three PC games, let's get rid of them altogether.

absolutely right, i also think it would be the best to exclude all PC games, a lot of people here don't seem to have any clue what pc games are good and which aren't

Planescape: Torment is the best example for this, i don't think it would even make an all-time-top500 for pc

i would love to include pc games, but seeing how wrong they are chosen, i don't think it's a good idea

[digitalpress]

If we delete all of the PC games then I'd have to remove all of the Commodore 64 games that others have been fighting to keep, like Ultimate Wizard, Wasteland, and Elite. If that's the way the forum wants to vote, then let's do it. But please don't insult Commodore users by not counting them as computers. And let's not overcomplicate things by including certain aspects and excluding certain others. As I've said probably a dozen times in this thread: let's keep it simple.

[digitalpress]

Four of the top 10 games ever made did not make the list, and I don't know why not.

I know why not.

Because all of the ones you listed were nominated and VOTED OFF by the forum members here. Now it's your job to lobby them back in. We already know they QUALIFY for the list, but you have to choose something to bump off in order to get them back on, and someone needs to second your opinion. That someone won't be me - bumping Adventure, Bard's Tale and Utopia because they're "not fun"? You must be mad.

[portnoyd]

Civilization II (PC) is the game I've played more than any other. The Civ series popularized the common genre that now includes the Age of series and Rise of Nations. The depth of the AI is tremendous.

NBA Jam and Resident Evil: Code Veronica would both also make my list. I'd toss Utopia and Adventure, which simply aren't fun these days. Also Bard's Tale, for the same reason.

I second Civ 2's readdition, BUT I cannot vote towards removing any of the three games you mentioned. Find a better choice for removal game, and I'll second it to get Civ 2 back on.

dave

[Sylentwulf]

absolutely right, i also think it would be the best to exclude all PC games, a lot of people here don't seem to have any clue what pc games are good and which aren't

Planescape: Torment is the best example for this, i don't think it would even make an all-time-top500 for pc

i would love to include pc games, but seeing how wrong they are chosen, i don't think it's a good idea

Yep. A lot of people on this board have to realize that we, as a collective whole, don't play many PC games. Even Console/Computers like the Commodore and TI-99, and TRS-80 aren't that well known on this board, and we should have stuck to console games. Not that I already said that or anything :P I also agree completely with Kevincure, This lists setup is faulty at the base that games can be voted off willey nilley (How the hell do you spell that?!) YES, I KNOW we can defend them back ON to the list, but that's kinda.... I dunno, a lot of words that don't quite describe it would be Banal, trite, asinine, vapid, senseless, moronic, inane, or ludicrous. Take your pick.

[digitalpress]

I'm sorry you don't like the process Sylentwulf, but no one is stopping you from starting your own list either. If you're just going to post complaints here you're not making the list any better.

I should also add that it DOESNT MATTER if only a small percentage of this forum plays PC games or not, because this is OUR FORUM'S LIST.

And if lobbying your favorite games back on instead of sleeping until someone else does it for you is your way of building a community-based list, then I feel much better knowing that I went about it the right way, simply BECAUSE you disagree.

[Ed Oscuro]

I should also add that it DOESNT MATTER if only a small percentage of this forum plays PC games or not, because this is OUR FORUM'S LIST.

I honestly don't think we should have any PC titles on this list. I can think of all sorts of good PC titles, but adding a few token representatives from the PC market only obscures the focus of this thread. If we were really serious about making a PC top ten list we could easily devote half the thread to covering them and whether or not they're as good as the console titles they replace is hard to judge since a lot of the PC titles mentioned are appealing to different sorts of people--they play different.

I myself haven't played all the way through Metal Slug yet, but I'll have to say that MS3 was among the coolest things I've ever seen. There I think I'm in line with the choice we made.

Changes:

- Replace Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with Super CV 4. I'd have said replace Dracula X PC-Engine but that's a tough decision. There's enough dumb things about SotN that I don't really care for it at the moment.

I like Legend of Zelda a whole lot, and Link's Awakening has just enough strange points that I think I might still like LoZ more, but it's a pretty close call. I'm quite concerned that neither of the Nintendo 64 titles is on this list.

Still thinking about things.

[Ed Oscuro]

Halo. Great game, not top 100 material in my book. Reasoning? It was a 6 month rush job, and regardless of how fun the game is, it shows. With Bungee getting all the time in the world to make Halo 2, they'll make a true top 100 game.

Until then there is definitly a game that should take it's place, and it is Final Fantasy VII.

I second that.

[Sylentwulf]

Well, the problem is, which is a completely VALID POINT, is that if I (and several other people that I know of) haven't actually played the game, we're not going to vote it off the list. So, you end up with several games (PC especially) that are still on the top 100 list ONLY BECAUSE noone ever played them! Since noone has played them, they didn't vote them off.

I know I didn't vote off any games that I never played, if I haven't played it, then why would I vote it off? That wouldn't be very fair would it? And I guarantee, if that many people haven't even played the game, it is NOT top 100 material. So as you said, a SMALL percentage of people on the forums play PC games, and this is the forums top 100 list, then why should PC games be ON the 100 list if it doesn't fit with the forum? That's just contradictory in very large way to me.

[Kid Fenris]

mh ok will be similar to my last post

i don't think Secret of Mana should be in there, Seiken Densetsu 3 is just better, period. If SoM is in there, SD3 also has to be

I disagree. Seiken Densetsu 3 has prettier graphics and more replay value, but it also suffers from very tedious combat and a lack of cohesion. Secret of Mana flows well, has a straightforward and engaging little story, and is far less boring. SD3 is hardly a bad game, but Mana is the better package.



i think Tales of Phantasia is superior to Chrono Trigger, so if CT is in there ToP should also be

Tales pf Phantasia is a fine RPG, but it has a great deal of repetitive battles as well as a storyline that's downright hackneyed when compared to Chrono Trigger's ambitious quest. CT is also far better in terms of combat and dungeon design, as it's one of the few RPGs in which fighting never gets boring.

If this were a list of the top 100 RPGs, I'd lobby for Tales of Phantasia. Here, however, it doesn't belong.

[digitalpress]

Well, the problem is, which is a completely VALID POINT, is that if I (and several other people that I know of) haven't actually played the game, we're not going to vote it off the list. So, you end up with several games (PC especially) that are still on the top 100 list ONLY BECAUSE noone ever played them! Since noone has played them, they didn't vote them off.

Are you following along? How can you say PC games especially are getting ON the list when just a few posts ago other members were saying we should do away with them completely because there are so FEW of them represented? Good god, man.


I know I didn't vote off any games that I never played, if I haven't played it, then why would I vote it off? That wouldn't be very fair would it? And I guarantee, if that many people haven't even played the game, it is NOT top 100 material. So as you said, a SMALL percentage of people on the forums play PC games, and this is the forums top 100 list, then why should PC games be ON the 100 list if it doesn't fit with the forum? That's just contradictory in very large way to me.

If a small percentage play the games and a small percentage are on the list, what exactly is contradictory? Wouldn't contradictory be removing them from the list when they've been part of the list for the past month? And again (though I don't suspect you read this either) what do I do with Commodore 64 stuff, which many members here will valiantly lobby to keep?

[Kid Fenris]

The PC choices are definitely weird. We are missing some great PC games, and have things like Planescape: Torment. That's ridiculous. While I am not sure that Diablo deserves to be there. I think that we're missing some great games (I am not a PC expert, so won't try to suggest them). OR, since we only have a three PC games, let's get rid of them altogether.

absolutely right, i also think it would be the best to exclude all PC games, a lot of people here don't seem to have any clue what pc games are good and which aren't

Planescape: Torment is the best example for this, i don't think it would even make an all-time-top500 for pc


Would either one of you care to explain why Planescape: Torment doesn't belong on this list? It strikes a perfect balance between character customization and a game-given cast, it has an excellent storyline, the amount of detail in its setting is amazing, and the battles, despite the click-click interface, are fun. If I had to list my favorite PC titles, Planescape: Torment would rank second.

And I think that the PC Games should stay. The point of this list is to whittle down an eclectic batch of games from a larger selection, so picking out the best of the PC bunch is no different than choosing the top console titles. We've already excised all arcade games. If we cut out more categories, we'll end up with a list that hardly matters.

Oh well, let's have a few votes . . .

I'll stand for Final Fantasy VII as well, though I'd take out Jumpman or Blazing Lazers before Halo.

I don’t support replacing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with Castlevania IV. In my opinion, Castlevania IV is the dullest 2-D game in the entire series.

[IntvGene]

If we delete all of the PC games then I'd have to remove all of the Commodore 64 games that others have been fighting to keep, like Ultimate Wizard, Wasteland, and Elite. If that's the way the forum wants to vote, then let's do it. But please don't insult Commodore users by not counting them as computers. And let's not overcomplicate things by including certain aspects and excluding certain others. As I've said probably a dozen times in this thread: let's keep it simple.

Ok... I'll be good. :-D

My problem was just that I don't feel like there are enough people with PC expertise to get good ones for the list (I am not a PC expert myself). That's all. But, you're right, and I agree that the C64 needs to stay.

Just for the record, I did try Planescape Torment, and never really caught on to it. But, it's an RPG, and I probably didn't give it the chance it deserved. I'll give it a second look sometime.

[ubersaurus]

Now that the cutting down is complete, I can add in my 2 cents...

I propose dropping Devil's Crush for Mr. Driller. Why? A pinball game, however good, I just can't see as belonging on a top 100 list. Mr. Driller, if I've already mentioned, is considered a top game on both PSX and Dreamcast, and is an extremely fun puzzle game, which doesn't even seem like a puzzle game at times, but an action game. It's a very well made title, with good music, suitable graphics, and addictive gameplay. Bring back the Drill!

And I cna't support dropping Halo. That game, even if its rushed, is still really damn good fun in multiplayer, and has a good storyline and gameplay as far as single player is concerned.

[zektor]

Now that the cutting down is complete, I can add in my 2 cents...

I propose dropping Devil's Crush for Mr. Driller. Why? A pinball game, however good, I just can't see as belonging on a top 100 list. Mr. Driller, if I've already mentioned, is considered a top game on both PSX and Dreamcast, and is an extremely fun puzzle game, which doesn't even seem like a puzzle game at times, but an action game. It's a very well made title, with good music, suitable graphics, and addictive gameplay. Bring back the Drill!

And I cna't support dropping Halo. That game, even if its rushed, is still really damn good fun in multiplayer, and has a good storyline and gameplay as far as single player is concerned.

Hmm...I like Mr. Driller alot, but Devil's Crush is one of the best (if not the best) pinball game on any console to date. It really does deserve to be in the top 100 IMHO. The list looks great to me at this point. The only other game I think should have been on there is Chu Chu Rocket. But, again, I don't see anything that can be removed for it...

[FrankLee]

I dont know what games to take out but id have...
Tomb Raider (Sat/PS1)
Chu Chu Rocket (DC)
Rayman (bunch o different systems)

[Arcade Antics]

*Calls for a motion to*

ADD: POWER STONE or POWER STONE 2 (my preference is for Power Stone 2, for its 3 and 4 player capability)

DELETE: Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Power Stone does *everything* that Super Smash Bros Melee does, but it does it BETTER. :) Better fighting, better mobility, better control, better camera, better playfields... and it does a much better job of delivering the "ass-kicking wallop" feeling than Smash Bros.

[Arcade Antics]

*'nother motion*

ADD: SUPER PUNCH OUT!! (SNES)

DELETE: MIKE TYSON'S PUNCH OUT (NES)

Mike Tyson's Punch Out is a semi-watered down version of Nintendo's hit arcade game, Punch Out!!, but with a tacked-on Tyson license. Tyson (pre legal battles) was the big name at the time, and Nintendo felt that his name would help sell the game.

Whether or not it did may never be known. BUT - for gamers, it wasn't a necessary move. Plus, it "dates" the game now. And later on, after Tyson's endless troubles with the law and such, Nintendo dropped him and reissued the game with "Mr. Dream."

But never mind alla that. SUPER Punch Out!! on the SNES is simply the *better* game. It forces the player to "learn" more and grow as a competitor in ways that the Mike Tyson game didn't (or possibly couldn't) allow. Sure, it looks much better, and the sounds and characters are arguably cooler, but at the end of the day, SUPER Punch Out!! has more depth and *plays* better than the Mike Tyson version.

[Kid Fenris]

*'nother motion*

ADD: SUPER PUNCH OUT!! (SNES)

DELETE: MIKE TYSON'S PUNCH OUT (NES)

Mike Tyson's Punch Out is a semi-watered down version of Nintendo's hit arcade game, Punch Out!!, but with a tacked-on Tyson license. Tyson (pre legal battles) was the big name at the time, and Nintendo felt that his name would help sell the game.

Whether or not it did may never be known. BUT - for gamers, it wasn't a necessary move. Plus, it "dates" the game now. And later on, after Tyson's endless troubles with the law and such, Nintendo dropped him and reissued the game with "Mr. Dream."

But never mind alla that. SUPER Punch Out!! on the SNES is simply the *better* game. It forces the player to "learn" more and grow as a competitor in ways that the Mike Tyson game didn't (or possibly couldn't) allow. Sure, it looks much better, and the sounds and characters are arguably cooler, but at the end of the day, SUPER Punch Out!! has more depth and *plays* better than the Mike Tyson version.

Seconded. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out may have Glass Joe and King Hippo, but Super Punch-Out is the better game.

[hydr0x]

Hmm...I like Mr. Driller alot, but Devil's Crush is one of the best (if not the best) pinball game on any console to date. It really does deserve to be in the top 100 IMHO. The list looks great to me at this point. The only other game I think should have been on there is Chu Chu Rocket. But, again, I don't see anything that can be removed for it...

mh one thing, if u really want the best pinball game to be on the list, take one of the Pro Pinball games for PC, i'd suppose Timeshock

and for the whole pc issue, joe, you can't compare PC and C64, as C64 was and is way more popular among the forum users. It's not a fault to not know anything about PC games, BUT, there are far too few people here who know enough PC games to even make a good top-100 (pc-only). I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible
if u really want to include them, just say, well there are 10 spots for pc games, lets take the pc experts of the board and let them chose those 10 games

[Sylentwulf]

Careful hydr0x, that sounds reasonable.

[Scoots]

I have to completely disagree with replacing Mike Tyson's Punch-Out with Super Punch-Out. Practically everyone in my age group that I've discussed classic games with remembers MTPO as an absolute favorite, and this includes as many hardcore gamers as people who haven't played a console game in 15 years. Graphics and sound may be better on the SNES version but if that was the deciding factor I suppose the entire list would be Xbox games. It may be a decision based primarily on nostalgia and cult value but isn't that what the entire retro-gaming community is founded on anyway? I own SPO and can honestly say I never get the urge to play it. On the other hand, I've been playing Tyson for the last 20 years and still enjoy it just as much now as I did then, despite knowing all the "tricks" for beating each guy.

[Arcade Antics]

I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible if u really want to include them, just say, well there are 10 spots for pc games, lets take the pc experts of the board and let them chose those 10 games

But here's an easier idea (one that has been reiterated a dozen times already :P ): suggest which PC games should be added. Then, suggest which games should be dropped to make room. See how easy it is! ;)


Careful hydr0x, that sounds reasonable.

How so? Is something preventing the PC crowd from offering games to add to the list?

[Arcade Antics]

I have to completely disagree with replacing Mike Tyson's Punch-Out with Super Punch-Out. Practically everyone in my age group that I've discussed classic games with remembers MTPO as an absolute favorite, and this includes as many hardcore gamers as people who haven't played a console game in 15 years.

Right. No disagreement there, but that alone doesn't make it a good game. Super Punch Out is the better game with better gameplay. Ergo, Mike Tyson's PO isn't a "Top 100" game, rather a good game that's a favorite.


Graphics and sound may be better on the SNES version but if that was the deciding factor I suppose the entire list would be Xbox games.

Already conceded that point in the original post. The SNES Super Punch Out!! definitely has better graphics, but that's not the issue - it's just a better game.


It may be a decision based primarily on nostalgia and cult value but isn't that what the entire retro-gaming community is founded on anyway?

We're not doing a "Top 100 Cult Favorites" list though - it's the Forum "Top 100 of All Time." So in that spirit, I definitely have to stick with the Super Punch Out!! as the better choice for the list than the NES Tyson version. :)

[bobdrywalls]

gunstar heroes
chrono trigger
skydiver (2600)

[Arcade Antics]

gunstar heroes
chrono trigger
skydiver (2600)

Wha??

[bobdrywalls]

my bad. the only page i read in this thread was the first one. i didnt see the last page and assumed that the first would be like the last and... oh hell just screw it!

[digitalpress]

Careful hydr0x, that sounds reasonable.

Once again, someone else articulating what Sylentwulf couldln't.

Hydrox, that IS reasonable but let's stick with the game plan. It's the 100 best games ever. If there are missing PC games, step up and acknowledge them, fight for them. If not, let it go.

This is a forum list. The top 100 is to be represented by our collective opinion. I don't care if there "may be some missing PC titles"... if we don't know about them, then they don't belong on THIS list.

I'm not debating this issue any more, fight if you want to but this is a top 100 games list based on the original criteria as outlined in my initial post, period.

[ubersaurus]

*Calls for a motion to*

ADD: POWER STONE or POWER STONE 2 (my preference is for Power Stone 2, for its 3 and 4 player capability)

DELETE: Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Power Stone does *everything* that Super Smash Bros Melee does, but it does it BETTER. :) Better fighting, better mobility, better control, better camera, better playfields... and it does a much better job of delivering the "ass-kicking wallop" feeling than Smash Bros.

I love power stone 2, but seriously, Smash Bros Melee is alot more fun. Chracter selection is larger, it's got a whole bunch of extras, several 1 player modes that are superior to Power Stone 2's, and of course, the whole trophy thing. Melee is nothing short of a masterpiece. PS2, those unique, has nothing on that (although I will admit there were good times playing that, between "indian suplexes" and calls to "get in the stew").

[Kid Fenris]

nd for the whole pc issue, joe, you can't compare PC and C64, as C64 was and is way more popular among the forum users. It's not a fault to not know anything about PC games, BUT, there are far too few people here who know enough PC games to even make a good top-100 (pc-only). I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible

Hydr0x, could you please explain WHY the PC games on this list are "horrible"? SimCity 2000 is a great example of the "Create Your Own . . . " school of games, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 2 are clever adventure titles, and Planescape: Torment is an excellent RPG. You're trying to present yourself as an experienced PC gamer, but if you can't even offer cursory reasons as to why the PC games on our list shouldn't be there, I can't really put much stock in your opinion. Sorry.

And like Arcade Antics said, if you can think of some better PC Games to add, share them with us. It's that simple.

[Scoots]

We're not doing a "Top 100 Cult Favorites" list though - it's the Forum "Top 100 of All Time."

I hardly see the difference. You say yourself that it's not strictly the games with the best graphics or music, so what then defines "best?" IMO, Mike Tyson is easily one of the Top 100 of all time. I wouldn't even think to put the SNES version on there.

[Arcade Antics]

We're not doing a "Top 100 Cult Favorites" list though - it's the Forum "Top 100 of All Time."

I hardly see the difference.

"Top 100 Cult Favorites" list would include, eg, Incredible Crisis. "Top 100 of All Time" wouldn't. Not because it's a bad game, it's just not "Top 100." I know it's a bit of a gray area, but it helps liven up these discussions. ;)


You say yourself that it's not strictly the games with the best graphics or music, so what then defines "best?" IMO, Mike Tyson is easily one of the Top 100 of all time. I wouldn't even think to put the SNES version on there.

I'm just trying to garner support for the swap. :-D

I like Mike Tyson's PO too, but I disagree with the positioning. To me, Tyson's PO is not a Top 100 game - it drags more than Super, and "Little Mac," while certainly a clever workaround for the green wireframe, just doesn't "feel" right. I like the game, but side by side with Super PO!! there are too many nagging problems with the Tyson version.

Whereas Super Punch Out!! IMO is absolutely fantastic for the reasons I've already given. Both games would live on a bigger list, but given the 100 game cutoff, I'm trying to persuade the "on the fence" crowd to swap out the SNES game over the NES game, as it's the more *playable* of the two.

[AB Positive]

To help quell this argument once and for all, I second the removal of MTPO for Super Punch Out. MTPO is the favorite, but Super Punch Out is more fun.

-AG

[kevincure]

Ok, here's how I'm going to make my swap choices: Any game that I wouldn't often play can not be on a Top 100 list. I'll spare the games I haven't played from the ax, but here's what should be changed:

Add:
CivII - it's the best game ever made for PC. I explained a few pages back why this is. CivII is the strategy prototype of a game that makes you play "just one more turn"
Drop in its place:
Of the PC/64 titles, Planescape:Torment is the weakest of the list. The game is good, sure, but I'd take either Baldur's Gate or Fallout if I wanted a PC RPG.

Add:
Grand Theft Auto: VC - Many's people's game of the year. Open-ended gameplay. Style. Appeal to the mainstream. Variety. It rocks.
Toss:
Vib Ribbon. Ok, the game is ridiculously cool, but it really isn't that fun. It's a work of art, but it's not one of the top 100 games ever made.

Add:
Gran Turismo 3 - best racing game ever, by nearly any standard.
Toss:
Tekken 3. Look, going by the DP Top 100, the best you can say is that Tekken 3 is the third best 3d fighter (after VF2 and Soul Calibur). Tekken 3 is fun, but to have the 3rd best 3d fighter and leave off the best racer ever is blasphemy.

Add:
NBA Jam TE (Genesis) - pick up n' play sports game. Good stuff.
Toss:
Baseball Stars. BS is the *only* sports game on this list. I know sports are tough to put on an all time list, since "Madden 2003", which is certainly one of the top 100 games available to play right now, will be replaced next year by Madden 2004 and so on. But as for the "timeless" sports games, I would much rather play NBA Jam than Baseball Stars.

Last, the talk about dropping Halo is ludicrous! Halo is the best game released so far on the current generation of systems (which are nearing on 2 to 3 years old already). The Top 100 list so far only includes *3* games from this generation, counting Halo. I find it hard to believe that a relatively obscure system like the TG16 produced more Top 100 games than the 3 current gen systems.

[kevincure]

Oh, two more.

Add: Vagrant Story (PSX) - my favorite RPG on PSX, original gameplay. Drop: Suikoden II (PSX), which, well good, isn't even one of the top 5 PSX Rpg's.

Add: FF7, 9 or 10, whichever you like best, and toss Bard's Tale. Bard's Tale may have been innovative in its time, but if I'm going to a desert island, I would take any of those FF titles over the entire PC Bard's Tale anthology from a few year's back. The game simply isn't fun.

[chevy_chase]

This is hard... x_x

well here's mine...

1 GTA 3 (PC)
2 crusader: no remorse (PC)
3 Carmagedon (PC)
4 Civilisation (PC)
5 Street fighter 2 (snes)
6 Tank wars AKA Bomb (PC)
7 Monkey island 2 (PC)
8 Robin hood (c64) - for old times sake
9 Super Mario Bros 3 (nes)
10 Syndicate (PC)

[hydr0x]

nd for the whole pc issue, joe, you can't compare PC and C64, as C64 was and is way more popular among the forum users. It's not a fault to not know anything about PC games, BUT, there are far too few people here who know enough PC games to even make a good top-100 (pc-only). I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible

Hydr0x, could you please explain WHY the PC games on this list are "horrible"? SimCity 2000 is a great example of the "Create Your Own . . . " school of games, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 2 are clever adventure titles, and Planescape: Torment is an excellent RPG. You're trying to present yourself as an experienced PC gamer, but if you can't even offer cursory reasons as to why the PC games on our list shouldn't be there, I can't really put much stock in your opinion. Sorry.

And like Arcade Antics said, if you can think of some better PC Games to add, share them with us. It's that simple.


i did list some, no one reacts to that post, that's exactly the problem here, noone can support the pc games cause noone knows about them

i didn't say all the pc games listed ARE horrible, i just said that they are CHOSEN horrible, adverb, not adjective. Monkey Island 2 is great and has to be on every top-list, Sim City 2000 is also great but debatable if good enough for this list. Planescape: Torment is only good, not many pc gamers would list it in their favourite rpg list though, their are better ones like Baldurs Gate, Might&Magic 4+5, Ultima Underworld, Diablo (yeah, hack n slay) and a LOT more

[hydr0x]

as for Grim Fandango, of course it's a great game, but now comes another problem with pc games....

it's an adventure, and i could list sooooooo many adventures it would be impossible to decide which is better because it only depends on how much u like the story

e.g. pls bring these into order: Grim Fandango, Broken Sword (Right name? Baphomets Fluch in Germany), Monkey Island 2, Monkey Island 3, Indiana Jones 4, Legend of Kyrandia 3, Toonquest, Floyd, Larry 6, Day of the Tentacle, Sam&Max

i think u get it, it's just not possible to say which is better, it's just a thing of personal taste

[girth305]

Hi All,

I would like to vote to keep Mike Tyson's Punch Out on the list over Super Punch Out. Super Punch Out is great, but it lacks that aspect that keeps making me play Mike Tyson's Punch Out over and over. I do not think that this is because of some sense of nostalgia value. Mike Tyson's Punch Out is just a hell of alot more fun. I think its that fun factor that really determines which game the "better" game. If the list were larger I would love to have both, but in this case I have to pick one. Keep Mike Tyson's Punch Out is my vote.

Take Care!

[Nature Boy]

My first goal is to get Civ II back on the list.

Out of all of the games I've purchased since it's release (and I've purchased *hundreds* of console games vs half a dozen PC games) I don't play any game as often as I play this. It's got replayability up the wazoo. It was tough switching over from Civ I at first but I can't go back to Civ I now that I've played II. (I don't have a PC powerful enough for III yet).

I'd drop Jet Grind Radio.

I enjoyed this game for awhile but then got incredibly frustrated with it. Skating around chasing the computer controlled skaters is *not fun* - and any game with not fun levels deserves to be dropped. Keep your love of the DC out of top 100 selections - this game isn't nearly as good as the DCs best (like Soul Calibur).

[Nature Boy]

My next wish:

Drop "Legend of Zelda"
Add "Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time"

I'm a huge Zelda fan, and I like the first game, but I never go back to replay it. OOT did what Mario 64 did (taking a great 2D game and evolving it into 3D). However, unlike Mario 64, OOT has replayability IMO.

[Nature Boy]

Sorry about the multi posting - I'm just trying to keep things simple for seconding and continuing conversation (and I'm not very organized). This is my last attempt.

And this time, I'd like to drop a 3D game instead of a 2D game (opposite of my Zelda post above). Drop Mario 64, add Super Mario World.

All three of my proposed additions are for games I still play over and over again. Super Mario World is, IMO, the best example of the 2D platforming style (I have to admit I haven't played Yoshi's Island yet though :) ). It's got replayability in spades (I'll admit part of the reason I still play it a bit is it's re-release on the GBA).

I tried to go back to Mario 64 a couple of times now. I still like the game but it can't keep me playing it until the end. It's definitely one of the 100 most *important* games (as is SMW IMO), but Mario 64 is not one of the best.

[Ascending Wordsmith]

For a minute, I was pleased to see Super Mario World on the list, but then I noticed that '64' was attached to it. I really tried to play and like Super Mario World 64, really I did. But Super Mario World seemed to be better in the areas of gameplay, visuals, and replayability. Maybe someone can word it better that I can, but the N64 version of the game just makes me yawn. Here I am in SMW64 running around with no sense of direction, until I run across an enemy. After deailing with the threat, I'm free to... run around some more!

I think SMW64 should be replaced with it's SNES cousin, SMW.

[buttasuperb]

The 3D Mario games are total crap compared to the 2D ones. FACT.

Thank You.

We now return to your regularly scheduled program.