Roundtable Top 100. Ever. [09/20/04 UPDATE] [Archive] - Page 5

Arcade Antics

07-02-2003, 11:54 AM

Super Punch Out is great, but it lacks that aspect that keeps making me play Mike Tyson's Punch Out over and over. I do not think that this is because of some sense of nostalgia value. Mike Tyson's Punch Out is just a hell of alot more fun.

Why is it more fun? Or, what is it about Tyson's PO that makes it more fun to you? It's still sounding like that nostalgia factor IS the reason behind its support. ;)

I'm a huge Punch Out!! fan, but of every Punch Out!! title, the Tyson version is easily the weakest game of the lot. Again, it's a good game, but (on the home front) Super Punch Out!! is SO much better.

So I'm wondering what makes the Tyson version so much fun, more so than the SNES version. :)

Keir

07-02-2003, 11:57 AM

Since we already have a Top 60 Commodore 64 Games (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1235) list, I won't be upset if this becomes a "console-only" list. That'd give people room to start voting games back on.

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 12:00 PM

Yea, I'm dead wrong. I don't like the game, but I should think it's great because others do.

You're dead stupid.

2D > 3D

Arcade Antics

07-02-2003, 12:02 PM

Mario 64 (3D) vs. Mario 2D games:

I'm what you might call an "impatient" gamer. I want to turn the game on and immediately start blasting, punching, jumping, what have you. :)

I prefer the 2D Mario games for exactly that reason. I have nothing against trying to put Mario in a 3D game, but so far, the attempts by Nintendo to do just that have left me bored. Not because there's nothing to do, but because there's almost too much to do, and sometimes too far to go to "get there" without a payoff proportional to the time spent.

SMB3: turn it on, immediately start doing lots of stuff. My kind of game. ;)

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 12:07 PM

I'm a huge Punch Out!! fan, but of every Punch Out!! title, the Tyson version is easily the weakest game of the lot.

The Tyson version is better than the Mr. Dream version, because it has Tyson of course, and he talks shit to you after he kicks your ass.

So I'm wondering what makes the Tyson version so much fun, more so than the SNES version. :)

Both games are fun, but I prefer the Tyson version, again just because it has Tyson in it. Tyson is funny. Fighting against Tyson is both fun and funny. LOL

Arcade Antics

07-02-2003, 12:13 PM

Tyson is funny. Fighting against Tyson is both fun and funny. LOL

Touche. LOL

I'd love to see a game where he beats up a refrigerator. Or an ocean-liner. Or a Space Shuttle. Or... wait a minute - all of the above, and more!

*picks up phone*

"Hello, EA Sports BIG?...have I got an idea for you!"

Scoots

07-02-2003, 12:23 PM

You're dead stupid.

Nice attitude. Way to foster the community vibe.

k8track

07-02-2003, 12:36 PM

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 12:43 PM

I think that shit you've been attempting to take with the porno mag for the last 6 months is affecting your judgment.

Nice attitude. Way to foster the community vibe.

Kid Fenris

07-02-2003, 01:01 PM

nd for the whole pc issue, joe, you can't compare PC and C64, as C64 was and is way more popular among the forum users. It's not a fault to not know anything about PC games, BUT, there are far too few people here who know enough PC games to even make a good top-100 (pc-only). I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible

Hydr0x, could you please explain WHY the PC games on this list are "horrible"? SimCity 2000 is a great example of the "Create Your Own . . . " school of games, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 2 are clever adventure titles, and Planescape: Torment is an excellent RPG. You're trying to present yourself as an experienced PC gamer, but if you can't even offer cursory reasons as to why the PC games on our list shouldn't be there, I can't really put much stock in your opinion. Sorry.

And like Arcade Antics said, if you can think of some better PC Games to add, share them with us. It's that simple.

i did list some, no one reacts to that post, that's exactly the problem here, noone can support the pc games cause noone knows about them

i didn't say all the pc games listed ARE horrible, i just said that they are CHOSEN horrible, adverb, not adjective.

In that case, it should be "chosen horribly" or "chosen in a horrible way."

Monkey Island 2 is great and has to be on every top-list, Sim City 2000 is also great but debatable if good enough for this list. Planescape: Torment is only good, not many pc gamers would list it in their favourite rpg list though, their are better ones like Baldurs Gate, Might&Magic 4+5, Ultima Underworld, Diablo (yeah, hack n slay) and a LOT more

Again we come to the same problem: you're not telling us WHY these games are better. If you want a game to end up on the list, at least come up with a few sentences to explain why, for example, Baldur's Gate is better than Planescape: Torment. Just saying "it's a great game" will get you nowhere.

Oh, and Grim Fandango is the best out of all the adventure games you listed. TheRedEye already put forth plenty of reasons, but I'll just mention that GF has the best visual style, the most compelling plot, and some of the cleverest puzzles. Easy, no?

Kid Fenris

07-02-2003, 01:10 PM

Maybe this one slipped by, but I motioned that Metroid be put back on the list (page 10) and Scoots seemed to have seconded that motion (page 11). I haven't seen it put back on; does it need one more vote?

I third the motion. To make room, take off either Tekken 3 (PSX) or Super Bomberman 2 (SNES). Tekken 3 is a good fighter, but it's not really a classic, and Super Bomberman 2 is outdone by Saturn Bomberman in all but some aspects of the one-player mode.

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 01:12 PM

I have a question.

If we're including PC games, shouldn't we be including arcade games too? This isn't a console only list right?

If so, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo should be listed as the CPS2 version, not the 3D0 version. I'm sure there are a few other games on the list that are like that.

digitalpress

07-02-2003, 01:20 PM

bargora

07-02-2003, 01:27 PM

One more clarification--I'm confused about whether only compilations in toto are banned from the list, or if also any games appearing in a compilation are excluded. My example is Crystal Castles. If we are limited to the non-compilation Atari 2600 version, then I can't really argue too hard for its inclusion on the list. Now, while I wouldn't suggest that Arcade's Greatest Hits: Atari Collection 2 (Playstation) should go on the list, I'm wondering whether Crystal Castles from Atari Collection 2 is a valid entry. Of course, it's a Digital Eclipse emulation on the Playstation, so maybe including it would defeat the whole point of this list, if the point of this list is to exclude original arcade games and arcade emulations on computers and consoles, and include only original games and arcade ports.

Please clear this fog from my head. @_@

hydr0x

07-02-2003, 02:21 PM

nd for the whole pc issue, joe, you can't compare PC and C64, as C64 was and is way more popular among the forum users. It's not a fault to not know anything about PC games, BUT, there are far too few people here who know enough PC games to even make a good top-100 (pc-only). I've been playing PC games (IBM-PC) well nearly since they exist, and i can only say one thing, the pc games are chosen horrible

Hydr0x, could you please explain WHY the PC games on this list are "horrible"? SimCity 2000 is a great example of the "Create Your Own . . . " school of games, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 2 are clever adventure titles, and Planescape: Torment is an excellent RPG. You're trying to present yourself as an experienced PC gamer, but if you can't even offer cursory reasons as to why the PC games on our list shouldn't be there, I can't really put much stock in your opinion. Sorry.

And like Arcade Antics said, if you can think of some better PC Games to add, share them with us. It's that simple.

i did list some, no one reacts to that post, that's exactly the problem here, noone can support the pc games cause noone knows about them

i didn't say all the pc games listed ARE horrible, i just said that they are CHOSEN horrible, adverb, not adjective.

In that case, it should be "chosen horribly" or "chosen in a horrible way."

sorry if i made a mistake but i'm german, this is NOT my native language, and i think it was very clear that i used it as an adverb

Monkey Island 2 is great and has to be on every top-list, Sim City 2000 is also great but debatable if good enough for this list. Planescape: Torment is only good, not many pc gamers would list it in their favourite rpg list though, their are better ones like Baldurs Gate, Might&Magic 4+5, Ultima Underworld, Diablo (yeah, hack n slay) and a LOT more

Again we come to the same problem: you're not telling us WHY these games are better. If you want a game to end up on the list, at least come up with a few sentences to explain why, for example, Baldur's Gate is better than Planescape: Torment. Just saying "it's a great game" will get you nowhere.

i said in an earlier post which games i'd prefer to which, i'm not going to repost it, and yes, Baldur's Gate is better than Planescape: Torment. The reason why i don't give any details or features is just that it's damn difficult to do this right in your 3rd language

Oh, and Grim Fandango is the best out of all the adventure games you listed. TheRedEye already put forth plenty of reasons, but I'll just mention that GF has the best visual style, the most compelling plot, and some of the cleverest puzzles. Easy, no?

it's not better, if like some of the listed ones better than Grim Fandango, and one of your arguments is compelling plot, mh, i think there are a lot of different oppinions about this. cleverest puzzles, that's something you can hardly say, a lot of adventures have great puzzles, you really can't decide which are better or more clever

visual style? this is a good point, but a lot adventures have their unique style, it's just a question of personal taste which u like more, the same thing with story, jokes and atmosphere

Kid Fenris

07-02-2003, 02:49 PM

i said in an earlier post which games i'd prefer to which, i'm not going to repost it, and yes, Baldur's Gate is better than Planescape: Torment. The reason why i don't give any details or features is just that it's damn difficult to do this right in your 3rd language

it's not better, if like some of the listed ones better than Grim Fandango, and one of your arguments is compelling plot, mh, i think there are a lot of different oppinions about this. cleverest puzzles, that's something you can hardly say, a lot of adventures have great puzzles, you really can't decide which are better or more clever

visual style? this is a good point, but a lot adventures have their unique style, it's just a question of personal taste which u like more, the same thing with story, jokes and atmosphere

Yes, but that's the whole point of this list: it's a combination of personal tastes and objective measures. We picked our favorites, and now we'll debate which of those favorites are the best based on semi-logical arguments and supporting details.

And I'm sorry if it's difficult for you to produce defenses in a non-native language (I'd find it impossible to argue my choices in German, after all), but you must realize that if you can't give any reasons for your choices, people aren't going to pay much attention to them.

Moreover, I don't get this whole "We should eliminate PC games because we're missing a lot of great PC titles" thing, because the same problem occurs with every console represented here. In order to make a Top 100 list, we're going to exclude a lot of great games for the Dreamcast, PlayStation, NES, Genesis, Saturn, and TurboDuo, but that's no cause to drop those systems. I can think of a lot of excellent imports that won't make the final 100, but I'm not going to demand that we limit the list to stuff published in American. I'm just glad to see Dracula X: Chi no Rondo, Radiant Silvergun, and Terranigma up there.

I wouldn't mind seeing Fallout, Half-Life, or Sam and Max Hit the Road on the list either, but if the Roundtable doesn't support that, I won't insist that we ban PC games completely.

Here's one I suggest, though: Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX) in, Shining Force CD (SegaCD) out. I like the Shining Force games, but FFT is much deeper in its customization and gameplay, as well as its storyline.

ubersaurus

07-02-2003, 02:58 PM

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 03:22 PM

*sigh*

kaine? LOL

If arcade games are gonna have a seperate list, shouldn't PC games have a seperate list as well?

anyways....

Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus,

digitalpress

07-02-2003, 03:52 PM

I'm gonna say pull out PSO for Sonic 2. PSO is an alright rpg, but its repetitive nature and lack of a real engrossing storyline don't make it a top 100. I don't even think that online play can save it. Sonic 2 is arguably the best sonic game, up there with CD. Obviously since Sonic 3 & Knuckles lockon isn't capable of getting on the list, Sonic 2 should.

I like the inclusion of Sonic 2 but you'll take PSO out of here over my dead body! It's in my top 5 of all time, and if you don't know about the online experience then that explains why you'd suggest removing it. Because you're RIGHT, as a solo game it's not even in the top 1000. But as an online game? Wow.

@Butta: you can make your own list - it can be handhelds and console games but not PC and arcade games. No one is stopping you. I'm sorry you don't like PC games but I'm not changing a months' worth of voting, as stated earlier numerous times.

PS: *sigh*

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 04:02 PM

whoa, whoa, whoa DP, I like a lot of PC games, in fact some of my favorite games of all time are PC games. Doubtful that they make this list though.

I will pass on making another list, this one is enough.

Kid Icarus?

Replace Baseball Stars (NES) with Baseball Stars 2 (Neo Geo)
Replace Halo (Xbox) with Doom 2 or Unreal Tournament 2003, take your pick.
Replace Tony Hawk 3 (PS2) with Tony Hawk 2 (PSX)
Replace Metroid Prime (GC) with Metroid Fusion (GBA)

Also need to add SF3 Third Strike and Last Blade. Get rid of PSO and something else.

Nature Boy

07-02-2003, 04:47 PM

I think SMW64 should be replaced with it's SNES cousin, SMW.

If this hasn't been considered as a second for my motion, I'm seconding this motion. SMW (SNES) replacing SM64.

The 3D Mario games are total crap compared to the 2D ones. FACT.

Thank You.

We now return to your regularly scheduled program.

Bravo. Thanks for 'helping' the process along in your typical "+1" fashion :roll:

Kid Fenris

07-02-2003, 04:52 PM

Replace Metroid Prime (GC) with Metroid Fusion (GBA)

YES! This probably won't be a popular choice, so I'd take out something else to make room for Fusion, since Prime is also top-notch. Maybe Qix should go. It's a decent game, but I never found it as addicting as great puzzle titles like Tetris and Tetris Attack.

buttasuperb

07-02-2003, 05:56 PM

The 3D Mario games are total crap compared to the 2D ones. FACT.

Thank You.

We now return to your regularly scheduled program.

Bravo. Thanks for 'helping' the process along in your typical "+1" fashion :roll:

Thanks for responding in a +1 fashion.

And now I will add :roll: for emphasis. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You really think I post nothing but +1 posts? I sure as hell don't.

Sylentwulf

07-02-2003, 06:34 PM

Aye, no matter how much everyone wants to, we're not removing the PC games, so get over it. :-D

I would third replacing Mario 64 with Super Mario World though. Also agree with putting metroid fusion on instead of Qix.

Keir

07-02-2003, 06:55 PM

On the subject of Jumpman and Ultimate Wizard, I did a comparison of the 2 games a while ago and you can see it on my site:

Ultimate Wizard (http://www.geocities.com/svipdaag/vidgames/wizard/demo.html)

The result was that Ultimate Wizard is a better game, though for some reason I still like Jumpman better. Go figure.

bargora

07-02-2003, 07:58 PM

I move to add Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit) and remove Tetris Attack. Archon is an elegant strategy game interspersed with nicely done 2-D action sequences. Add in the spells and it's got enough to keep you thinking in between hard-fought battles. The NES version is OK, but the computer versions were better.

Even if Tetris Attack goes, we still have Tetris (GBA). Or kick the GBA version and keep the SNES. It matter not to me.

If nobody is willing to second a sacrifice of even a duplicate Tetris, then I suggest removing Qix. I love Qix, but I love Archon more.

Oh, and if anybody else love Archon, check this out:
http://www.archonevolution.com/game/game.asp

AB Positive

07-02-2003, 09:45 PM

Halo. Great game, not top 100 material in my book. Reasoning? It was a 6 month rush job, and regardless of how fun the game is, it shows. With Bungee getting all the time in the world to make Halo 2, they'll make a true top 100 game.

Until then there is definitly a game that should take it's place, and it is Final Fantasy VII.

I second that.

I really believe this needs to happen. If I need a third and a fourth...ing? to get it done, fine. And if Halo has to stay on... *grumbles* I will second throwing out Bard's Tale, another GREAT game-yet-not-top-100-game to add in FF7. The game is my top game of all time, period end of story, and is the only game I see missing on the list.

-AG

Charlie

07-03-2003, 05:15 AM

Missing
Pokemon Puzzle League (remove Tetris Attack)
Reason: Pokemon Puzzle League *is* a better version of Tetris Attack. It features more modes, it's runs faster, and it has cleaner graphics. I think this list is a joke if a superior version of the SAME GAME is not included. Seriously, this is funny as hell... a bunch of adults scared shitless of the word "Pokemon".

Missing
Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (remove Night Warriors)
Reason: Night Warriors hasn't aged well IMO. Meanwhile, the GB Player has reminded me why the Oracle series are the best two handheld adventures ever.

Missing: Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons (remove Rez)
Reason: Personally, I found Rez to be unfun. Techincally it was a well made game but I just didn't have FUN playing it.

Mising: Rollercoaster Tycoon 2(remove Burgertime)
Reason: Burgertime is still a fun game to kill 15 minutes with, but it hasn't aged as well. Meanwhile, RCT 2 is my favorite PC game ever. I can spend hours using the Roller Coaster designer alone. Include it.

Missing: Startropics (remove Wipeout XL)
Reason: Ugh, what can I say? Startropics is my favorite game ever. I liked F-Zero more then Wipeout and I wouldn't include either on a list of the top 100 games ever.

I also vote to keep Mike Tyson's Punch Out... Super Punchout I found to be dull as hell. It was too easy.

Nature Boy

07-03-2003, 08:31 AM

I have to disagree with the inclusion of the Oracle Zeldas and Metroid Fusion. I enjoyed all three of them but I don't think they're quite top 100 material.

I haven't gotten all the way through Metroid Prime yet so I'll leave it alone. As of right now it's not top 100 material IMO (although I do like it).

I'm guessing that the DC fans on this site will never second a motion to vote off Jet Grind Radio for a PC game. But, much like DP iterated in an earlier post, Civ II *needs* to be on this list. It's in my top 3. I replay it all the time. Maybe more so than the other games in my top 3 (Tetris, Link to the Past).

So, instead of replacing Qix with Metriod Fusion, I propose replacing Qix with Civ II. I never got into Qix when it was new - and I don't replay it at all now. I've always felt it was overrated.

Thanks for responding in a +1 fashion.

You really think I post nothing but +1 posts? I sure as hell don't.

Ahhh, but my +1 comment wasn't the only thing I had said. I also seconded a motion and was contributing to the thread.

You really think I post nothing but +1 posts? I sure as hell don't.

Where did I say that? You're the one who just proposed it my friend :)

AB Positive

07-03-2003, 09:48 AM

[quote="Nature Boy"I'm guessing that the DC fans on this site will never second a motion to vote off Jet Grind Radio for a PC game. But, much like DP iterated in an earlier post, Civ II *needs* to be on this list. It's in my top 3. I replay it all the time. Maybe more so than the other games in my top 3 (Tetris, Link to the Past).

So, instead of replacing Qix with Metriod Fusion, I propose replacing Qix with Civ II. I never got into Qix when it was new - and I don't replay it at all now. I've always felt it was overrated.[/quote]

I'll second Civ II for Qix. Qix is a great game, but not a top 100 game to me. and yes, I highly doubt you'll get away with trying to get JGR off, much like I got nowhere trying to get Halo off.

But FF7 is in, I'm happy.

-AG

digitalpress

07-03-2003, 09:48 AM

OK.

I stepped away from the list for a days came back, filtered through the flames, tallied up the "second the motion" requests, seconded a few myself, and made the changes to the list. Take another look at it.

Now, if your game still isn't there, and your motion to add it has been seconded, point it out to me. There are a lot of topics in this thread and though I read every one it's possible I missed something!

Sylentwulf

07-03-2003, 11:11 AM

Wipeout XL, Rez, and Jet Grind Radio are the only 3 games on the list that I've played and don't think belong at all. Can't think of anything I would add (that anyone would agree with anyways :) to replace them though.

Arcade Antics

07-03-2003, 11:19 AM

Just wanted to say that Jet Grind Radio, absolutely, no two ways about it, hands down, (insert more cliches here ;) ) belongs on the list. It's easily one of the most fully realized games out there with outstanding graphics and sound AND excellent gameplay.

Kid Fenris

07-03-2003, 12:02 PM

Wait, how'd we lose Guardian Heroes? That's easily the best side-scrolling beat-'em-up ever. It's complex yet enjoyably chaotic, it has loads of replay value, and the six-player battle royale mode is amazing. Let's put it back and drop . . . hmm . . . either Jumpman (As Keir pointed out, Ultimate Wizard is better) or Streets of Rage 2 (while good, it shouldn't take precedence over Guardian Heroes).

buttasuperb

07-03-2003, 12:04 PM

much like I got nowhere trying to get Halo off.

I second removing Halo from the list, there are better FPS's out there that aren't on the list, most notably Doom 2 and Unreal Tournament 2003, IMO.

Keir

07-03-2003, 12:09 PM

B... B.. Bard's TAle is gone? :(

digitalpress

07-03-2003, 12:24 PM

I heard a few Bard's Tale "outs" but how about this:

Rez out, Jumpman out.
Guardian Heroes in, Bard's Tale in.

Continue the battle.

I dunno about HALO. I'm not a great fan of the Xbox but that's the best FPS I've ever played. Unreal Tourney 2003 is great... on someone else's computer (it's very suceptible to annoying slowdowns on my mager 1.5mhz).

Ascending Wordsmith

07-03-2003, 12:35 PM

Wait, how'd we lose Guardian Heroes? Let's put it back and drop . . . hmm . . . either Jumpman (As Keir pointed out, Ultimate Wizard is better) or Streets of Rage 2 (while good, it shouldn't take precedence over Guardian Heroes).

Drop Streets of Rage 2? I would argue with you before jamming a syringe loaded with hydrochloric acid into your throat, but I haven't played Guardian Heroes. I hear wonderful things about it, plus it's a Treasure game, so I'm inclined to see what all the hu-bub's about. I like BEmUPs (beat'em ups) and if it's as good as you say, drop the Sega title. I'm off to Ebay to investigate a possible purchase.

Arcade Antics

07-03-2003, 01:01 PM

ADD: Grand Theft Auto: Vice City

DROP: Metroid Fusion or Metroid Prime or Super Metroid (choose one)

GTA: VC is absolutely a Top 100 game. Complete freedom. Chaos. Carnage. And a badass mix of 80s tunes. It's fun, it's silly, it's disturbing... and it's a great, great game.

The list seems to be a little too "Metroid-heavy" in its current state, so I'd point to dropping one of the Metroid games first, my vote is for Metroid Prime, but in a pinch, Fusion or Super Metroid will do too. It seems to me that with four Metroid games on a Top 100 list, there are other games we've overlooked. And the ommission of GTA: VC stands out like a sore thumb.

digitalpress

07-03-2003, 01:05 PM

I'm gonna second that, Dave.

Vice City in, Metroid Fusion out (of the three that was by far the least IMHO).

Keir

07-03-2003, 01:06 PM

Rez out, Jumpman out.
Guardian Heroes in, Bard's Tale in.
I'll second that.

Scoots

07-03-2003, 01:17 PM

I'd like to second Bard's Tale in. This and Wasteland were my two favorite computer games back in the 5.25" floppy days. I recently started playing through the NES version of BT and think it's got just as much replay value as a Dragon Warrior, say. If something has to come out, I'd probably vote for Streets of Rage 2. I never saw any of the SOR games as anything more than 10 minute time wasters.

buttasuperb

07-03-2003, 01:28 PM

I'm gonna second that, Dave.

Vice City in, Metroid Fusion out (of the three that was by far the least IMHO).

IMHO, Fusion is better than Prime. But then again I'm a huge fan of 2D games. Anyone else with me on this one?

And I do agree with Vice City being on the list.

digitalpress

07-03-2003, 01:47 PM

I never saw any of the SOR games as anything more than 10 minute time wasters.

Neither have I, that's what makes them so brilliant.

Remember, a lot of us grew up on 10-minute time wasters. Space Invaders, Pac-Man, Missile Command, Joust, Tempest.... these are games that if you were playing for more than 10 minutes then you'd simply mastered - which to me meant I was about to get really bored.

Scoots

07-03-2003, 02:18 PM

I grew up on all those games, consider myself a master of none, and can easily beat the 10 minute mark without being bored. Those games are hard to master and that's what keeps them vital after all these years. I can usually play all the way through a game like SOR on a couple of continues. That's not fun to me.

Nature Boy

07-03-2003, 03:00 PM

My proposal: Drop Wipeout XL (PSone), Add Ico (PS2)
Additional Comments: Halo STAYS

Now that Civ II is back in I'd like to lobby for another of my personal top 10: Ico (PS2). Again, I don't much like stories but the story telling in this game was incredibly well done. I've played it through twice now and will definitely play it through again. My wife got hooked on it just from watching me play (and *she's* played through it twice). It's a piece of art - and deserves to be in the top 100.

I'll take a cue from Wulf and suggest we drop Wipeout XL. I admit it's harder for a racing style game to be compelling years after the fact (for me anyway), but I definitely think Ico is a much better game than Wipeout XL.

I'm still standing beside Halo. I admit I haven't played many FPS, but there's a reason. I'm not a fan of the genre in general. And I love this game.

I've beaten it myself. And, more importantly, I've replayed it many times over with friends. And I know I'll keep replaying it. I'm not a fan of story telling in video games but this game does it *well*. I admit I'm a sci-fi fan, but I loved the story and I loved how everything fit together. Throw in "The Flood" level specifically, and the tension I felt from there 'till the end, and I say it's *easily* a top 100 game. I consider it one of my 10 favourite of all time. And I'm not an Xbox fan (it's my least favourite of the current three).

If you want to axe Halo for another FPS I'd sure like to hear why - nobody has given any good arguments for it.

k8track

07-03-2003, 03:12 PM

I think Charlie articulates his arguments for including and dropping games very effectively and persuasively (I got hooked on Pokemon Puzzle League because of him), although I'm forced to disagree with him on one point in order to defend a game I feel is very worth including, and that is Burgertime for Intellivision. I feel that it has indeed held up pretty well over the years; in fact, it has been and still is my favorite version of the game, even over the arcade/MAME version! There's just something about it. This is one of the gems of the system that really represented it well; colorful, crisp graphics and catchy sounds and music. I think it belongs there.

AB Positive

07-04-2003, 02:41 AM

Here's where I stand with Halo, since it's gotten a little heat:

Halo, is a good game. But not great, the reason being is that it is rushed and it shows. A lot of levels, while good looking, are cut and paste jobs with one room looking near-exact to the next, and corridors looking similar. There are many places where I got confused as to where I was and where I was supposed to go. The only thing that helped me were the arrows on the ground literally pointing me in the correct direction when I was lost. This seems like a bad fix to a worse issue.

There can be no argument that Halo was rushed because it was. The game was meant to be Marathon 3: Halo, the third in the Macintosh FPS series. Until Bungee was bought by Microsoft and gave the company 8 months to port the code they had already made, and finish the game for launch. Considering the circumstances, Bungee are gods for making that much of a playable game in such a short time. It doesn't, however, make up for the fact that it's far from perfect.

Multiplayer-wise, the game is one of the best out there. I will give it this. However, with no Live compatibility, you're stuck with either XBConnect (unavailable to Mac/Linux users) or trying to find friends to play with. I do not have enough friends to play Halo above 3 players, including my fiancee, so this hurts it for me.

I hear that the single player story of Halo is incredible. It very well may be, but I'm still confused to what the hell is going on and I'm after "The Flood". It seems to get to me much like FF8 did: incredible story hampered by the fact that the game is not fun enough in single player to justify making it to the end.

I have no doubt in my mind that Halo II, with Bungee getting all the time in the world, will be what Halo should have been. But until then, Halo just does not scream "Top 100" to me.

If we need a game to replace Halo with, I offer to you some suggestions:

Battlefield 1942: Online bliss, in a small green and black box.

Fantasy Zone (Arcade/SMS/TG-16): Still one of my all time favorite horizontal shooters

Thief: Stealth/FPS combined, I hear a lot of good of this, but haven't played it myself.

Although, looking at the list, I'm amazed at what missed the list. So my main reccomendation would be this:

Halo out

Contra in.

Just how in the hell did Contra miss out in this? I thought it was a no-brainer... But still, if anyone seconds with one of the other titles, I'll be happy. But Contra has to go in.

-AG

kevincure

07-04-2003, 04:18 AM

AdamG, now I know why you're not feeling Halo. Forget about the first-person game - it's a decent FPS, but I'd much rather play a game like Deus Ex if I wanted to play single-player. Halo is a game, like Saturn Bomberman, that requires a nice group to play and becomes awesome once that group is there. Me and my crew out here in Oregon play minimum 3 v 3 and have played as much as 8 v 8 (with a huge ethernet cord out the window to a 2nd apartment and 2 more TV's). The game is phenomenal this way.

The other big reason to keep Halo is because Goldeneye is on the list (and deservedly so, in my opinion). While Goldeneye is a great shooter, and lots of fun in multiplayer, we hardly ever break the game out now that Halo is around. Deus Ex, Half Life and Counterstrike are the only FPS' I would even consider once Halo is in the running.

AB Positive

07-04-2003, 02:00 PM

Ah, see that exact reason is why I prefer Bomberman '93 over Saturn Bomberman. Yes, the Saturn Bomberman has superior multiplayer, but Bomberman '93 has the superior single player, AND a great-but-not-the-best multiplayer. I have this thing about games coming as close to "The Complete Package" as much as possible within it's genre.

...I guess I also throw out Saturn Bomberman for Bomberman '93 since I'm being so hardheaded of late :-D

-AG

Kid Fenris

07-05-2003, 12:42 PM

Although, looking at the list, I'm amazed at what missed the list. So my main reccomendation would be this:

Halo out

Contra in.

Just how in the hell did Contra miss out in this? I thought it was a no-brainer... But still, if anyone seconds with one of the other titles, I'll be happy. But Contra has to go in.

-AG

If any Contra game goes on the list, I think it should be Contra III. The original Contra isn't a bad game, but Contra III smokes in it every possible way. The aesthetics are better, the level design is creative, the boss encounters are far more varied and memorable, and the gameplay has countless improvements: you can climb walls, you can carry two guns, and your default weapons don't suck. Granted, both Contra and Contra III were voted off of the list already, but I'd put back Contra III first.

Ed Oscuro

07-06-2003, 04:47 PM

I've never really liked Contra III, but it certainly does beat the heck outta the original Contra. I'd go with Super Contra, but C3's really the best game overall. Though that overhead stage isn't as good as the Super Contra or Operation C overhead levels.

DarkSoul

07-06-2003, 04:59 PM

I must say, of the underrepresented PC RPG market, I just don't think Planescape: Torment is the "best"... at all.

I offer two possibilities to replace it, should anyone agree with me:

My personal choice, which I think truely is just about the greatest, Fallout 2.
It's a masterpiece, a descendant of Wasteland with a wonderful story, engaging enviornment, and wonderful humor and writing.

But... it wasn't a huge seller, so... on the popular front, I offer another alternative: Baldurs Gate 2. Comparisions to Planescape are inevitable at this point, but, suffice to say, I just thing BG2 is better- I like the story better, I like the setting better, I like the writing better, I just plain like it.

Griking

07-06-2003, 11:50 PM

You guys must really be biased against Hall of Fame PC classics.

Add Zork - Geez, it's a classic already. Drop Baseball Stars for the NES. It's not even the best Baseball game (High Heat Baseball is better).

Add Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (It was like the first REAL Computer RPG). Drop Halo. Take away all the eye candy and it wasn't very special of a game.

I also have to place a vote for Unreal Tournament. Its been out about three years now and I still play it regularly. Boot the Tony Hawk game for it, they always bored the hell out of me.

DarkSoul

07-07-2003, 01:05 AM

Aw, I dunno about that- I'd take Half Life in a second over Unreal Tournement any day. It's multiplayer is comperably good, and it's got THE BEST storyline / game design of any FPS out there, flat out.

DarkSoul

07-07-2003, 01:09 AM

The more I look at this, Half Life (PC version) really needs to replace Halo, if you ask me. And you should. Because I'm right.

nellwyn5

07-07-2003, 01:42 AM

Hmmmmm....

1. Final Fantasy IV (SNES)
2. Super Mario 3 (NES)
3. Ninja Gaiden (NES)
4. Gunstar Heroes (Genesis)
5. Wizard of Wor (Various, I had the C64 version)
6. Metal Gear Solid (PSX)
7. Grand Theft Auto III (PS2)
8. Street Fighter II (SNES)
9. Black Magic (C64 - Does ANYBODY know this game?)
10. Silent Hill (broken radio equals scariest game element ever!)

Maybe not the best out there, but these are the games that made the biggest impressions on me.

hydr0x

07-07-2003, 05:30 AM

i'll second the replacement of Planescape: Torment by Baldur's Gate 2 and the replacement of Halo (and/or Unreal Tournament) by Half-Life

AB Positive

07-07-2003, 08:27 AM

The more I look at this, Half Life (PC version) really needs to replace Halo, if you ask me. And you should. Because I'm right.

Wow, how did I miss this, too. I'm not a FPS guy AT ALL and I love Half-Life. Now THIS is a FPS that tells a story and tells it well. DarkSoul: consider it seconded.

also...

Add Zork - Geez, it's a classic already. Drop Baseball Stars for the NES. It's not even the best Baseball game (High Heat Baseball is better).

Seconded as well. Zork needs to be on there, period. I can't believe I forgot all these...

-AG

digitalpress

07-07-2003, 09:14 AM

But... it wasn't a huge seller, so... on the popular front, I offer another alternative: Baldurs Gate 2. Comparisions to Planescape are inevitable at this point, but, suffice to say, I just thing BG2 is better- I like the story better, I like the setting better, I like the writing better, I just plain like it.

I'll second this. I haven't played Fallout but Baldur's Gate 2 is a great game. As much as I'd like to see niche/underrated titles appear on this list, I don't see Planescape as one of them.

digitalpress

07-07-2003, 09:15 AM

The more I look at this, Half Life (PC version) really needs to replace Halo, if you ask me. And you should. Because I'm right.

A lot of people are voting HALO off, I'm going to second this particular keep/drop variation.

I'd like to see Zork on the list too, but not in place of Baseball Stars.

Scoots

07-08-2003, 08:31 AM

Add Zork (PC), remove Super Mario Kart (SNES).

Nature Boy

07-08-2003, 09:40 AM

Add Zork (PC), remove Super Mario Kart (SNES).

I have a problem with this. We already have 21 RPG games by my count. And only 2 racing games.

Actually I have a problem with having 21 RPG games in the first place. I know there are a lot of RPG fans here, but this is a bit ridiculous, don't you think? A genre like racing being represented twice (Wipeout XL, Super Mario Kart, three if you want to count Twisted Metal 2, which I don't think is racing).

The shooter genre is pretty popular too and we've only got about 10 of those. FPS? Three.

We've also got 18 'platform' games which may be too high but at least it doesn't comprise of more than 20% of the list.

Anybody else concerned about this? Or are RPGs really that much better than every other genre out there?

Scoots

07-08-2003, 09:49 AM

digitalpress

07-08-2003, 10:07 AM

Well I haven't heard anyone second it yet - I like Zork and I can see it making the list but no way would I personally put it over Super Mario Kart. In fact, I've had no real desire to play Zork for about 10 years, when the Infocom collection came out. Bought it, played it, beat it, stowed it.

Nature Boy

07-08-2003, 12:45 PM

I don't really consider Zork to be a RPG first of all. Secondly, why would we include an inferior game just because its genre is underrepresented? If there are only 2 racing games on the list I'd say that's indicitative of their overall esteem in the eyes of those of us who have composed and edited this list. Mario Kart is a fun game but I have a hard time believing it's a BETTER game than Zork (unless we're talking multiplayer ;) ).

I don't disagree in principle. I'd just like to point out that perhaps we *are* giving too much credit to RPGs and not enough to other games in other genres. Racing was just my example.

I won't throw any names out there because nothing comes to mind. I just want to seed this idea in the minds of everybody participating. If enough others agree maybe we can do something about it.

(And how can you *not* consider multiplayer when considering a game? That's like only playing half a game. I wouldn't play half of Zork and then decree it stinks)

AB Positive

07-08-2003, 12:53 PM

I think what DP meant is that if you -only- consider multiplayer, Mario Kart wins. This is a gimmie, since Zork has no multiplayer.

-AG

digitalpress

07-08-2003, 01:02 PM

I think what DP meant is that if you -only- consider multiplayer, Mario Kart wins. This is a gimmie, since Zork has no multiplayer.

Is that what I meant? Damn, I don't even have to type these things out any more. I have truly become assimilated by the network!

Charlie

07-09-2003, 11:52 PM

Here's the problem: it's that instead of dropping down the game that is the WORST GAME ON THE LIST and replacing it with the BEST GAME NOT ON THE LIST, we're just firing off random games.

So how about this: we go down the current list, one game at a time, and debate the pros and cons of it. Will it take a while? Hell yeah, but at least nobody can say we rushed this thing.

So... try this: List the first game, list the pros, the cons, then what your vote is (to keep it or let it stay). Let the majority rule.

Adventure (2600)
Pros: Of all the games for the Atari 2600, it's the one with the longest-lasting appeal. Being over 20 years old hasn't hurt it's charm or playability in anyway.

Cons: Simplistic graphics that even it's programmer admits were somewhat embarassing.

My Vote: Keep it. Historicly, it's one of the most important games ever, and outside of history, it's still fun to this day.

Nature Boy

07-10-2003, 09:07 AM

Here's the problem: it's that instead of dropping down the game that is the WORST GAME ON THE LIST and replacing it with the BEST GAME NOT ON THE LIST, we're just firing off random games.

I don't agree 100% (I think everybody, when they are suggesting a replacement, is trying to get rid of the game on the list they like the least), but I like the idea of getting rid of the 'worst' games. Debating each game in order is a bit daunting though and I don't think we'd ever finish.

I've got an Add/Drop of my own here (until we 'officially' switch the rules I'm going to play by 'em).

DROP: Terranigma
ADD: Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

I'm picking on Terranigma partly because it's an import I suppose. Even if this doesn't get seconded, however, I'd love to hear why this game belongs on our top 100.

There are a few games in my personal top 10 not yet represented. Halo I've given up on (there are too many people who want it out). Ocarina of Time I'm not even close to giving up on. I'm an admitted Zelda fan, but I truly believe OOT belongs on a top 100 list.

Kid Fenris

07-10-2003, 12:04 PM

I've got an Add/Drop of my own here (until we 'officially' switch the rules I'm going to play by 'em).

DROP: Terranigma
ADD: Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

I'm picking on Terranigma partly because it's an import I suppose. Even if this doesn't get seconded, however, I'd love to hear why this game belongs on our top 100.

As action/RPGs go, I've found few that are as purely fun to play as Terranigma. The control is fluid, and the special moves never grow dull, even though they're all available from the game's start. While the dungeons revolve around combat more than puzzles, their layouts are clever and the boss encounters are demanding. The visuals are impressive even today, and the soundtrack is excellent. That underworld theme still haunts me.

Terranigma also includes some simulation elements, allowing players to control the industrial development of towns by fostering and spreading new inventions. As for the storyline, it's an interesting Manichean yarn about the necessities of destruction and rebirth; not grand literature, but there's at least one killer plot twist, and the ending is a nice alternative to happy resolutions.

In a way, Terranigma/Tenchi Sozo is the final evolution of the gameplay concepts that the minds at Quintet employed in their earlier SNES titles. It has the sim-world gameplay of Actraiser, the intricate stages of Soul Blazer, and the combat emphasis of Illusion of Gaia. Everything comes together quite well, to the point where I'd almost rate Terranigma higher than some of the Zelda games.

However, I would like to see The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time on the list, If we're going to drop an action/RPG to make room, Ys Book I and II should be the first to go. As influential as the games were in story and cinematic presentation, their run-into-enemies gameplay just isn't all that fun. By the way, didn't we have a rule against including compilations?

Or perhaps The Incredible Wizard should go. Could someone explain why this one deserves a spot on the Top 100?

Arcade Antics

07-10-2003, 12:14 PM