Piracy

[noname11]

I think its fair to say that a lot of the people who defend modding/piracy defend it on completely reasonable grounds.

Fair Use

Ability to Return Bad/defective merchandise

Ability To import (it's at best a grey market)

Purchase of full rights vs Licensed for Home Play


Software in general has all but killed any consumer protection we all had. We can make archival copies yet we cannot violate DMCA, we can buy a tangible product [a game] yet cant return it like we could a defective vacuum cleaner, and the disc we do purchase only gives us one slim license out of a bundle of rights we should theoretically have.

And now there's talk about restricting used game sales/ digital downloads with only 1 redownload opportunity ?

I for one could care less that piracy is still around. Game companies should adapt to the new market realities - free is the new price to beat, and your products should be at or near that price or at a reasonable price where people will still bite!

[Rob2600]

With used games, as well as used CDs, cars, etc, there is only one copy being played at any given time. One person still owns the right to one game.

You're right, but with a used game, many different people can re-buy the same copy of a used game and get enjoyment from it. The developer/publisher only sees money from the original sale.

With piracy, it's sort of the same thing. The developer/publisher sees money from the original sale, but then many different people get enjoyment from pirate copies.


Keep in mind, I'm not against used games. I just think it's an interesting point.



Software in general has all but killed any consumer protection we all had. ... we can buy a tangible product [a game] yet cant return it like we could a defective vacuum cleaner

That's because when people bring home a new vacuum cleaner, they can't make perfect digital copies of it. That's the problem software companies and stores are facing.

I don't copy games, but when I worked at EB during the PS/N64/DC days, we had many customers who did. It had gotten so bad, even children's parents would come into the store asking if we sold PS mod chips. I'd explain to them that using mod chips and copying games was illegal and they'd get all freaked out.

[ProgrammingAce]

i try before i buy on some out of print stuff. I downloaded a copy of lunar 1, 2 and vay for the sega cd and burned it to disc to play. about 3 weeks later i bought all 3 in a lot for 80 dollars. Same with snes and nes roms. I started with just roms while i was on a nostalgia trip one week, next thing i know, im spending tons of cash on ebay for original systems and games!

There we go, that's a perfect example. You downloaded it to try it. But what if it wasn't any good? Then you just pirated a game with no intentions of purchasing.

See, you can say you download things to see if they're fun, but the reverse side of that is that you end up downloading a lot of things that aren't fun that you never intend on purchasing.

If it turns out that everything you've ever downloaded was great and you bought everything, then what the hell is the point in sampling it first?


A good enough piece of software will weather the piracy storm. Fine examples are Doom and Quake. Sure, they did see their share of piracy, but those two games made enough money to fund a small war.

So as long as the game isn't any good, or it sold a bunch of copies, it's fine to pirate? Where's the cutoff point, if it has an average score of below 6.5 you can pirate it?

[kupomogli]

I personal think it should be legal as long as it's for yourself and you don't download a copy of the title but rip it from your own collection.

[ProgrammingAce]

For those of you who download a game to try it before you buy it... As a game developer, i don't like people doing that. That's my right. So i'm going to do everything in my power to stop you, i'm going to add as much DRM as it takes to keep you from "trying" my game.

I'm not cool with you sampling my game without buying it. You're just as much a reason for DRM as the people pirating it. It's too late to go back now, there are too many people pirating games these days to remove DRM. The PC industry is in a cycle of suck.

[Vlcice]

You're right, but with a used game, many different people can re-buy the same copy of a used game and get enjoyment from it. The developer/publisher only sees money from the original sale.

With piracy, it's sort of the same thing. The developer/publisher sees money from the original sale, but then many different people get enjoyment from pirate copies.

The difference is that pirate copies are non-exclusionary. A theoretically infinite number of people can access the game. A used copy allows one other person at a time to access the game that someone else originally bought new. That results in a limited number of used copies available - for instance, for a new game or a popular game, someone looking for a used copy to buy might find out there isn't one available right then and buy a new copy instead.


Then where'd the original pirated material come from?

I could be wrong, but from what I understand many new pirated games are leaked from manufacturing.

[Rob2600]

For those of you who download a game to try it before you buy it... As a game developer, i don't like people doing that.

Do you release official demos?

[ProgrammingAce]

DRM is bad for the consumer, it sucks. Piracy is bad for the publisher. The fact that you can't return a defective game is completely asinine. Overall, PC gaming is broken. It doesn't work well for anybody anymore. That's why i said it just needs to roll over and die.

If you honestly think you have to pirate a game just to see if it's any good, then it's time for PC gaming to lay down and die.

[Sabz5150]

So as long as the game isn't any good, or it sold a bunch of copies, it's fine to pirate? Where's the cutoff point, if it has an average score of below 6.5 you can pirate it?

No. I said if the product is worth it, then people will buy. If your product is good enough, piracy won't make a dent in sales because people will find it worth their money.

[Sabz5150]

For those of you who download a game to try it before you buy it... As a game developer, i don't like people doing that. That's my right. So i'm going to do everything in my power to stop you, i'm going to add as much DRM as it takes to keep you from "trying" my game.

I'm not cool with you sampling my game without buying it. You're just as much a reason for DRM as the people pirating it. It's too late to go back now, there are too many people pirating games these days to remove DRM. The PC industry is in a cycle of suck.

DRM is a cancer and it will lay waste to this industry. The methods will be cracked each and every time because the consumer will not stand for it.

As a consumer, if you tell me that I cannot use a product I legally purchased in a legal manner that you don't particularly like, I will laugh at you.

I don't like buying a crap game and being stuck with it, either. If you aren't confident enough in your skills as a developer to release a game and allow a person fair judgement before a committed purchase, to me that says a LOT.

[Sabz5150]

There we go, that's a perfect example. You downloaded it to try it. But what if it wasn't any good? Then you just pirated a game with no intentions of purchasing.

rm -f gamefile.iso

If the game isn't good enough to play, it's not worth my drivespace.

[Porksta]

rm -f gamefile.iso

If the game isn't good enough to play, it's not worth my drivespace.


But what if you do like it? People say they will go buy it. Bullshit. Let's say it is Oblivion, a game with no online play. Wow, I already have Oblivion here illegally on my computer. I am going to go now and pay $50 for it for no reason now that I already have it.

Saying you will buy it if it is good or delete it if it is bad is just an excuse criminals give themselves while stealing.

Hey, I'm going to steal this car so I can drive around in it. Wow, this handles great, I am going to park this back right where I stole it and go drop $50K on this Lexus right now!

[eskobar]

There aren't enough jail cells, even if you pack them ten deep.
.

Of course a video is not the best way but it part of the options as well as a magazine review; the point is that we have many options to make an informed purchase.

I know that there are not enough jail cells but we can't deny that importing is illegal too. Even if you purchase it legally, using it outside is illegal and the companies are very clear about it.

I think that is very stupid to consider illegal using an import game but this is my opinion, not the company's. I do not know who applies the law in a case like this but i can't say its legal because i think it is

http://homepage.mac.com/nihonsei/eskoweb/Illegal.jpg

[Sabz5150]

But what if you do like it? People say they will go buy it. Bullshit. Let's say it is Oblivion, a game with no online play. Wow, I already have Oblivion here illegally on my computer. I am going to go now and pay $50 for it for no reason now that I already have it.

Saying you will buy it if it is good or delete it if it is bad is just an excuse criminals give themselves while stealing.

There's more to a game than an iso image. Some people don't get that.

If I honestly like a game and find it to be worth shaving a bit of weight off my wallet, I will buy. Just like every other game I own.


Hey, I'm going to steal this car so I can drive around in it. Wow, this handles great, I am going to park this back right where I stole it and go drop $50K on this Lexus right now!

Try this:

Hey! Let me use my magical box to make an exact copy of this person's car and give it a quick spin. Of course it only copies the base aspects of the vehicle... paint, stereo, phat rims, etc. all require a purchase.

Of course, this only applies if Lexus doesn't let you get within fifteen feet of the car at the lot until you have handed them a briefcase full of small, unmarked bills.

[Icarus Moonsight]

If you could scan the car and make a copy to scoot around in and make it disappear afterward, your analogy would be apt.

[Sabz5150]

Of course a video is not the best way but it part of the options as well as a magazine review; the point is that we have many options to make an informed purchase.

I know that there are not enough jail cells but we can't deny that importing is illegal too. Even if you purchase it legally, using it outside is illegal and the companies are very clear about it.

I think that is very stupid to consider illegal using an import game but this is my opinion, not the company's. I do not know who applies the law in a case like this but i can't say its legal because i think that it's some thing stupid o just because i think that is not.

http://homepage.mac.com/nihonsei/eskoweb/Illegal.jpg

Exactly what legal grounds to they have to say where their product can and cannot be used?

[geneshifter]

To Ace:
Every single game with DRM will have a crack available about 10 minutes after release; Not really effective except to piss off legitimate consumers. I've personally had to reformat my entire system once due to this crap. DRM needs to die fast. Go back to frigging code wheels if you have to.

[Porksta]

Exactly what legal grounds to they have to say where their product can and cannot be used?

I'm going to guess in that little box where it says "for use only in USA, Mexico, and Canada".

[Sabz5150]

I'm going to guess in that little box where it says "for use only in USA, Mexico, and Canada".


*By reading this, I now own your soul.

Pay up.

[Porksta]

Curses!

[Sabz5150]

Curses!

A company can put anything in a little box on the back of a game, but that does not automatically make it legally binding.

[ProgrammingAce]

rm -f gamefile.iso

If the game isn't good enough to play, it's not worth my drivespace.

But... you still broke the law then. And you're the reason we need to use DRM.

See, i'm *telling* you not to buy PC games. I hope the PC game industry goes down in flames. The conusumers aren't happy, the publishers aren't happy... it's time for PC gaming to end. If you don't like DRM, stop buying the products and let the industry die. I've bought one PC game since 2003, and it was a buggy pile of junk.

Stop breaking the law, stop bitching about DRM and do something about it.

[eskobar]

A company can put anything in a little box on the back of a game, but that does not automatically make it legally binding.

Buying a game does not make you owner of the Intellectual Property of the company.

[Sabz5150]

But... you still broke the law then. And you're the reason we need to use DRM.

The fact that you produced a horrible game is justification to make sure that the consumer only realizes this AFTER they have given you their money and have no way to get it back?

Gotcha.


See, i'm *telling* you not to buy PC games. I hope the PC game industry goes down in flames. The conusumers aren't happy, the publishers aren't happy... it's time for PC gaming to end. If you don't like DRM, stop buying the products and let the industry die. I've bought one PC game since 2003, and it was a buggy pile of junk.

Stop breaking the law, stop bitching about DRM and do something about it.

I don't buy PC games. Consoles are chock full of DRM. Ask anybody who had a red ringed 360 early on.

[Porksta]

A company can put anything in a little box on the back of a game, but that does not automatically make it legally binding.

How so? When you buy a product, you agree to the terms they set. So since Microsoft puts "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" on their discs, you don't have to follow that term?

[Sabz5150]

Buying a game does not make you owner of the Intellectual Property of the company.

Of course not, but what legal standing does a company have for this? If I buy a game on a vacation overseas, are you telling me that I can't use this game?

In the next episode of Future Court...

[Porksta]

The fact that you produced a horrible game is justification to make sure that the consumer only realizes this AFTER they have given you their money and have no way to get it back?

Gotcha.

Seriously? People don't read reviews or do research before buying a game? You aren't just going to buy a plasma TV on a whim, you are going to do your research.

[Sabz5150]

How so? When you buy a product, you agree to the terms they set. So since Microsoft puts "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" on their discs, you don't have to follow that term?

There's a difference in making an illegal copy and dictating where I can and cannot use a particular game depending on where my feet are currently planted.

[Sabz5150]

Seriously? People don't read reviews or do research before buying a game? You aren't just going to buy a plasma TV on a whim, you are going to do your research.

Review = opinion. I think Halo and its successors are utter crap. Will you turn away from those games based on that review?

[Porksta]

So people should only follow whichever rules they want when they are put on a game? You know, I want to play this game in Japan so I will. But wait, this says not to make illegal copies of the disc. So I won't do that because they say not to. You cannot choose to follow some rules and ignore others. Imagine if people followed stop signs but not red lights?

[Porksta]

Review = opinion. I think Halo and its successors are utter crap. Will you turn away from those games based on that review?

I'm not going to make my decision based off of what one person says. I can do this:

Ask my friends.
Go to my friends house and play.
Rent the game.
Gamefly the game.
Play a demo of the game.
Use metacritic.


Why in the world do I need to pirate the game?

[Porksta]

I personally have never played the Fallout series, nor would ever care to. But do to all the great reviews and word of mouth Fallout 3 has been getting I have decided that I want to buy it. I am confident that with the means available to me, I will enjoy an $80 purchase without ever playing the game or reading a review, or playing its predeccesors.

[Sabz5150]

So people should only follow whichever rules they want when they are put on a game? You know, I want to play this game in Japan so I will. But wait, this says not to make illegal copies of the disc. So I won't do that because they say not to. You cannot choose to follow some rules and ignore others.

I am saying that there is no legally enforceable way to counter importing. Piracy is illegal because you are infringing upon IP. Importing is just something the companies do not like.


Imagine if people followed stop signs but not red lights?

We live in Virginia. This is commonplace.

[Sniderman]

We live in Virginia. This is commonplace.

Heh!:above me:

[ProgrammingAce]

The fact that you produced a horrible game is justification to make sure that the consumer only realizes this AFTER they have given you their money and have no way to get it back?

Gotcha.


If the game is broken, return it. If the game is bad, then you're screwed. Just like any other entertainment medium. You can't go to a theater and ask for a refund because The Spirit was garbage.



I don't buy PC games. Consoles are chock full of DRM. Ask anybody who had a red ringed 360 early on.


Then obviously you get a free pass to break whatever law you want. Look, if you don't like the law, talk to your congresscritter. That's what they're for. If you elected a shitty government, you get shitty service. That isn't exclusive to the game industry.

[Sabz5150]

Heh!:above me:

Don't get me started on the Pouncey Tract/Broad Street "Sliders light"... where traffic moves when it's red and doesn't when it's green.

[Sabz5150]

If the game is broken, return it. If the game is bad, then you're screwed. Just like any other entertainment medium. You can't go to a theater and ask for a refund because The Spirit was garbage.

In a theater, you pay for one viewing. When you buy media, you pay to view/use several times.

Besides, theater viewing is excellent for deciding what does and does not get added to my library.


Then obviously you get a free pass to break whatever law you want. Look, if you don't like the law, talk to your congresscritter. That's what they're for. If you elected a shitty government, you get shitty service. That isn't exclusive to the game industry.

With the money DRM makes, do you think they aren't lobbying?

All I ask is that I get a few minutes to rock the game. I'm not asking to walk the entire thing front to back. If your software is up to snuff, then I *WILL* purchase. If not, don't chalk it up to the evil pirate.

This is why shareware rocked.

[kupomogli]

I'd say it goes to say what your terminology on illegal is. The reason is because technically you do "own the game." If it's used as a backup because you don't want the game to get scratched, or if you're using multiple copies in your own home to play multiplayer or maybe played on vacation, but no additional copies end up leaving your home. Would that really be considered illegal? The other person ended up making an extra copy while at his house so they could play Gears of War 2 together, but I didn't see a mention of him saying that he gave it to his friend to bring home, though on the other hand I did just skim through.

Now off topic with another example. PSP's with customer firmware. If someone had a custom firmware and didn't download PSP games or PSX games, but they ripped all the PSX games they owned, converted them for personal use on their system, and played them that way. They are still only using a single copy and making a duplicate only for personal use. You technically already own the game and want nothing more than to play it portable and you're not downloading it, so nothing illegal there, correct?

So if you ask me. On that front, Sabz makes a good argument. If I were to go on vacation, I wouldn't want to take my entire game collection with me in case that it would get stolen or ruined, yet I'd also like to play many of these said games.
-

As for the "I download it and if it's good I'll buy it argument." I know the majority of people won't buy them. If you have the option of not paying for something, then it's obvious you won't no matter who you are. There are some people like collectors that do have to have the box, booklet, and actual physical copy of the game.

If you ask me, I just dislike playing games period unless I actually own a copy of the game. Weird, but for some reason I do. I think that if developers want to release demos, which is actually becoming more frequent, then you can play the game that way, but I honestly don't support "download the full game and then buy it if you like it."

Here's a reason. What happens if you beat the entire game and you happen to have really liked the game, but not enough to buy it right then but you do want it. You'll put off buying it because you don't want to buy a game that you just finished do you? Something that you'll probably get pretty bored of later on due to putting too much playtime into. What happens next? The game might happen to go Greatest Hits or maybe you can't find any new or mint copies, or even any decent priced ones. So yeah.

Now an alternative reason is pretty much for everyone who actually doesn't collect games. 99% of the time these people will save it on their computer harddrives or store it somewhere. If they happen to finish it, the fact that they're not collectors and the replay drops significantly once the game is beaten pretty much means that it's guaranteed they won't buy the game.

So yeah. I support ripping games you already own to play somewhere else. Whether it's out on vacation or to put on a portable system and play. I don't support downloading and playing then buying it if you like it because it's just not going to happen like that.

[Rob2600]

If the game is broken, return it. If the game is bad, then you're screwed. Just like any other entertainment medium. You can't go to a theater and ask for a refund because The Spirit was garbage.


In a theater, you pay for one viewing. When you buy media, you pay to view/use several times.

Besides, theater viewing is excellent for deciding what does and does not get added to my library.

So for you Sabz, watching a movie in a theater is sort of like demoing the movie to see whether or not you'll add it to your collection later, when it comes out on DVD. That's fine.

However, since you pay $6-$12 for a movie ticket (which to you is a demo), would you likewise spend $6-$12 to demo a video game to see if you'd add it to your collection?


I mean, if game companies offered demos of their games for - let's say - $10 each, would that stop you (and/or other people) from pirating? Or would the demos have to be free in order to prevent piracy?

[ProgrammingAce]

I mean, if game companies offered demos of their games for - let's say - $10 each, would that stop you (and/or other people) from pirating? Or would the demos have to be free in order to prevent piracy?

Ooh, i like that...

In the same vein, why are piracy numbers so high for games that *do* have free demos?

[Trumpman]

I know that downloading any game that is still under copyright is illegal (the copyright won't expire for seventy or eighty more years). But is it ethically wrong to download a game that you can't buy in a retail store anymore? I will never pirate a new game, as I like to support developers, especially on the PC where we see fewer and fewer good games every year. But I hate paying exorbitant prices on eBay or whatever for old PC games that are good but you cannot find in stores. You aren't stealing money from the developer, as there are no more copies of the game being produced.

[Rob2600]

why are piracy numbers so high for games that *do* have free demos?

Good question. Again, back when I worked at EB, there were always a handful of people who bought the PlayStation Jampack demo discs, but there were many more people who copied games instead.

Seriously, I'd try to convince people to buy an N64. They'd laugh and say, "Are you crazy? Why would I pay $50 per game when I could get a PlayStation and copy as many games as I want for free?"

[eskobar]

I know that downloading any game that is still under copyright is illegal (the copyright won't expire for seventy or eighty more years). But is it ethically wrong to download a game that you can't buy in a retail store anymore? I will never pirate a new game, as I like to support developers, especially on the PC where we see fewer and fewer good games every year.

Ethic is based on moral principles and those vary on every person or community.

Ethically piracy is piracy. Even if one game is no longer available, is their problem if they do not want to release it again. Even if they do not use it, it's their IP and they are the only ones that can use it.

Sometimes you just can't have everything. For example, those who pay "exorbitant prices" on eBay are spending hard earned money on them ... ethics ?


Some forms of piracy are ignored by many companies because it's very expensive to keep up with pirates; many people takes advantage because they will not be punished.

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

Here is my big gripe on the PC market. Not just games, but apps as well. Once you have opened the shrink wrap you are bound by the license and terms of use BS that comes with it. Of course, with lots of software, you can't even see what these terms are until you are installing it. A little late if there happens to be something in the terms that you don't agree with.

JY

[Sabz5150]

So for you Sabz, watching a movie in a theater is sort of like demoing the movie to see whether or not you'll add it to your collection later, when it comes out on DVD. That's fine.

Watching a movie is more than "wathcing a movie". Sometimes it's a large part of a night out. If a videogame demo were the focal point of a night out with my wife, I'd be single.


However, since you pay $6-$12 for a movie ticket (which to you is a demo), would you likewise spend $6-$12 to demo a video game to see if you'd add it to your collection?


I mean, if game companies offered demos of their games for - let's say - $10 each, would that stop you (and/or other people) from pirating? Or would the demos have to be free in order to prevent piracy?

I like that idea. Maybe we can attach a free magazine to 'em.

[Rob2600]

if game companies offered demos of their games for - let's say - $10 each, would that stop you (and/or other people) from pirating?


I like that idea. Maybe we can attach a free magazine to 'em.

Or how about for $15, publishers could release discs with maybe ten different demos on them, like they used to do with the old PlayStation Jampacks?

[JSoup]

Or how about for $15, publishers could release discs with maybe ten different demos on them, like they used to do with the old PlayStation Jampacks?

That seems impractical from a consumer stand point, as any number of demos could be made available for free via various shop-type networks (PSN, Nintendo Channel, etc.). Paying $15 for demos you can get for free and a magazine full of information that was old news three weeks prior seems counter intuitive.

[Gameguy]

I am saying that there is no legally enforceable way to counter importing. Piracy is illegal because you are infringing upon IP. Importing is just something the companies do not like.
In the 90's EB Games actually imported Japanese Virtual Boy games and sold them in stores locally. :)


If the game is broken, return it. If the game is bad, then you're screwed. Just like any other entertainment medium. You can't go to a theater and ask for a refund because The Spirit was garbage.
I'm guessing that's another reason people pirate, they don't like being stuck with shit they had to pay for. I remember a time when games were purchased based on box art/box descriptions alone. It seems a lot of reviews aren't even reliable anymore because game companies pay for advertising and influence the reviews. The reason pirating wasn't seen as often in the past for consoles(in North America) is because of cartridges, it wasn't something most people could do at home without being seen. There were always people selling fake carts and multicarts, but most people couldn't make those at home.


Some forms of piracy are ignored by many companies because it's very expensive to keep up with pirates; many people takes advantage because they will not be punished.
Some companies choose not to enforce it because it would just make them look bad. Plenty of people make homebrew games using characters owned by other companies, to stop those from being made doesn't really help bring in extra money. I've seen these games(available as freeware) made featuring Garfield, Indiana Jones, Guybrush Threepwood, Day of the Tentacle characters, plus way more.

[kedawa]

People pirate stuff because they can. Whether or not what they are doing is legal is irrelevant. There's no risk involved unless you're selling bootlegs or overtly distributing copyrighted material. A small minority have honest intentions of buying stuff, but they are insignificant.

As long as piracy offers a more convenient distribution model and a superior product, there's just no way to compete, and once people have gotten used to paying nothing for digital content, there's no going back.

Publishers have to hold on to the paying customers they still have, but they need to be smart about it.
I don't really have a problem with DRM so long as it's effective and unobtrusive. If my game needs to verify itself with the official server before playing online, I don't have a problem with that, especially if it keeps the cheaters out.
Let the pirates play with the cheaters and give paying customers a better experience, and everyone will get what they paid for.

For anything single player, DRM is just a nuisance and works against publishers, because the pirated version is always going to be hassle free. I don't know if removing DRM would help or not, honestly, and I imagine offline PC games will eventually become completely unfeasible. That doesn't bother me personally, since most modern single player games have far too much extraneous non-interactive bullshit for my tastes anyway, but I can see how that would handicap the platform.

In any case, pc gaming isn't going away. Ever. I don't really like the way things are going at the moment, but no other platform can compete with the flexibility and power of a PC, and that's enough to ensure at least a niche market.

[mills]

Watch a video of your next car instead of test driving it.

I Lol'd

[Gameguy]

See, i'm *telling* you not to buy PC games. I hope the PC game industry goes down in flames. The conusumers aren't happy, the publishers aren't happy... it's time for PC gaming to end. If you don't like DRM, stop buying the products and let the industry die. I've bought one PC game since 2003, and it was a buggy pile of junk.

Stop breaking the law, stop bitching about DRM and do something about it.
Is that also Microsoft's official view? Don't buy our PC games or use our operating systems, we're just for business applications? I thought you supported Microsoft.

My PC isn't powerful enough to run modern games, but there are several out there that I'd like to play eventually(A Vampyre Story, any of the Telltale games, etc). Some smaller companies offer games through digital distribution, but they still have the option to purchase a physical copy if wanted. I like adventure games, they work best on a computer with a mouse. I guess there aren't a lot of people left who like adventure games.

I find PC gaming is best for independant developers, they have to start out somewhere. Isn't it a lot less constricting to make games for the PC compared to consoles, can't you make whatever kind of game you want without worrying about censorship?

Here's an independant developer;
http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/aboutus.html

[Chainclaw]

On the whole subject of "try before you buy," in the '90s (and probably the '80s) if a game sucked, you could just bring it back to the store and get your money back. It's too bad you can't do that anymore.

[BHvrd]

On the whole subject of "try before you buy," in the '90s (and probably the '80s) if a game sucked, you could just bring it back to the store and get your money back. It's too bad you can't do that anymore.

Yeah my uncle used to do that, made it really easy for him to copy an ass load of games!

He told me once....."nephew", you just gotta have people skills.

[ProgrammingAce]

Is that also Microsoft's official view? Don't buy our PC games or use our operating systems, we're just for business applications? I thought you supported Microsoft.

I do not work for microsoft, I don't even own a windows computer, and my company laptop runs linux. Obviously i am not their official spokesperson. Rarely do i support their decisions. I believe they've made a number of missteps with their methods of content management.

I have interactions with all 3 console manufacturers in my line of work, and would like to see them all succeed. I'm not afraid to call any of them out for their missteps.

Just last week i was called a sony fanboy for posting this picture: http://programmingace.com/images/360Promo/MicrosoftMotivation.jpg

I was the one who started the thread talking about how all the zunes failed. I figure if i keep getting called a fanboy by both sides, i'm probably walking the middle pretty well.

[SegaAges]

I am personally against piracy. I mean, I am a programmer. I still do freelance stuff every once in awhile.

Every single person that pirates software means that I lose money.

Here is a good example: Let's say you get the recipe for a Big Mac. Now, you get this recipe, and give it to every single person you know. Let's say they give it to every single person they know. Know, lets say all these people are losers, but enjoy 1 big mac a day. Well, lets say each person only has 1 friend. That makes math easy. For every single day, the company loses, what, $3 or whatever they cost now.

Now let's say that your friend is on the internet and you spread it to 100k people. Yeah, that is alot of money.

Compare that big mac to a piece of software that cost $50. That is a buttload of money. That is money that I directly lose from people not buying my software.

That is how I make money. It is my job to write software, and I am not about to have somebody give it to the world for free.

Now, 10 years down the road, I have some software that I am not using and won't make money from it. Who cares. I would rather have it distributed than not used at all since I am not making money off of it.

As for letting pc gaming die, I will have to disagree with you. I love pc gaming. I bought Spore the week it came out (it could have been the release day, I don't remember). Pc Gaming is awesome because it is not restricted by the hardware. Yes, it is expensive to be a pc gamer, but it is also expensive to be a neo geo collector. I am not talking shit on neo geo collectors, heavens no. I want a neo geo. It is just an example. The pc gaming is awesome because they can continue to push boundries that you could not normally hit on a console. Speaking of which, I want to do some upgrades on my system. I love pc gaming.

[s1lence]

Wow, I can't believe that I missed both of these threads.


I used to be a pirate of games, pre-xbox 1 days. It was an addiction, I had to have something even if I didn't play it. It didn't matter what it was and it was pathetic. I've rid myself of that garbage and I'm happy that I did. Now, currently I work with a guy that pirates a lot of stuff.....and he shares it with other people at work. It drives me nuts because the method of pirating hasn't changed since I stopped and I call him out on it all the time. Thats something that really annoys me as its almost a bragging nature, especially today when he was talking about burning a co-worker a copy of Quantum of Solace, as in the movie.

Now, I wish I could moddify one of my 360s, but ONLY so I could play japanese or euro games on it. I had to buy three different 360's to cover all the parts of the world, hence forth all the possible releases as well, probably why I'm #2 in the world on 360 games played. I would also like PC gaming to go away, even though I have a good gaming PC. The only reason I have it is so I can play the PC games that have achievements as well.

Which brings me to another issue was the pirates/hackers that screwed with the achievement system, that really pissed me off. I'm glad that most of those assholes got banned for good.

Looking back at it all too, all the pirate games are worthless. I rather like looking at my legit 360 games sitting on the shelf. Lastly, I'm glad that Progace called out someone that was pirating 360 games...thank you.

Sorry if I rambled, but I had to share all my random thoughts.

[Gameguy]

I do not work for microsoft, I don't even own a windows computer, and my company laptop runs linux. Obviously i am not their official spokesperson. Rarely do i support their decisions. I believe they've made a number of missteps with their methods of content management.

I have interactions with all 3 console manufacturers in my line of work, and would like to see them all succeed. I'm not afraid to call any of them out for their missteps.
Ok, I was just confused a bit. I thought you worked for Microsoft directly and the 360 division is against the PC division. I was really confused by that.


I was the one who started the thread talking about how all the zunes failed. I figure if i keep getting called a fanboy by both sides, i'm probably walking the middle pretty well.
You mean all sides right? There's more than two "sides". :)




Here is a good example: Let's say you get the recipe for a Big Mac. Now, you get this recipe, and give it to every single person you know. Let's say they give it to every single person they know. Know, lets say all these people are losers, but enjoy 1 big mac a day. Well, lets say each person only has 1 friend. That makes math easy. For every single day, the company loses, what, $3 or whatever they cost now.
That's totally a good example, we shouldn't be allowed to cook food ourselves or restaurants would go out of business. It's amazing McDonalds can survive if people cooking at home takes away so much of their money(it rightfully is their money, they invented the hamburger).

In reality, restaurants are still doing well despite many people continuing to cook at home.

I think I actually have a recipe book somewhere that has unofficial recipies of major food chains(TGIF, IHOP, Applebees, etc), the food is supposed to taste pretty much identical. It just doesn't have all the preservatives and chemicals like the real restaurants do. :)


Now let's say that your friend is on the internet and you spread it to 100k people. Yeah, that is alot of money.

Compare that big mac to a piece of software that cost $50. That is a buttload of money. That is money that I directly lose from people not buying my software.
That is a lot of money, I think that's why a ton of people pirate. They think the company is still making a ton of money anyway.

The best way to convince people to not pirate is to disclose how little you actually make for each copy of the game. If they know how little that really is that should convince at least a few people to stop pirating. If it's too personal, nevermind.

[BHvrd]

I believe they've made a number of missteps with their methods of content management.



That's a great statement and lets me know you are someone I would like to talk to.

While you are at it tell Sony that their license structure and proprietary ideas are very brilliant. Being able to take my content where I want when I want in the form I want is what it is all about, but...

When you download movies from the ps3 video store if you don't back it up you're fucked, no re-downloading the wares. Could you possibly explain to me why this is if you have any idea?

I'm pretty mad that I spent money for movies that I can no longer download. That is in itself "criminal" imo. Regardless of what their lame ass terms of service say they will get no more money from me at this point (their video store that is)............and that is the bottom line!

[Gameguy]

Why aren't public libraries illegal? They let people borrow and read through entire books without people having to buy them, that takes money away from authors and publishers.

[SegaAges]

Why aren't public libraries illegal? They let people borrow and read through entire books without people having to buy them, that takes money away from authors and publishers.

Well, it is not like they are scanning the books they borrow, and then distribute them all over the web. Well some people do, but that would be a good example of a bad situation

[Half Japanese]

I generally turn a blind eye to piracy so long as a person isn't making profit from it. When you start making profit from the work of others, that's when I start to look down on you as a leech.

When an album, film, etc. is not available for purchase, I suffer no guilt by acquiring it via methods other than jacked-up used prices on Amazon or eBay.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Why aren't public libraries illegal? They let people borrow and read through entire books without people having to buy them, that takes money away from authors and publishers.



I don't think the analogy holds up that well. Isn't a library more like a Blockbuster (of literature) without the fees?

[darkslime]

I generally turn a blind eye to piracy so long as a person isn't making profit from it. When you start making profit from the work of others, that's when I start to look down on you as a leech.

When an album, film, etc. is not available for purchase, I suffer no guilt by acquiring it via methods other than jacked-up used prices on Amazon or eBay.This post is win. Go ahead and pirate, but if you're the douche selling burned dreamcast games on craigslist...

[Gameguy]

I don't think the analogy holds up that well. Isn't a library more like a Blockbuster (of literature) without the fees?
Yes, though libraries can charge late fees.

Books used to be rented just like movies, and publishers of both books and movies tried to get that stopped because they thought it would cut in on sales.

Here's a brief history of rentals, it's interesting to read in it's entirety.
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/history/

And a specific quote;


8. Backlash from the producers

The publishers were not enthused about the growth of circulating libraries:

``In the `Life of Lackington' there is the following passage:--``I have been informed that, when circulating libraries were first opened, the booksellers were much alarmed; and their rapid increase added to their fears, and led them to think that the sale of books would be much diminished by such libraries. But experience has proved that the sale of books, so far from being diminished by them, has been greatly promoted; as from these repositories many thousand families have been cheaply supplied with books, by which the taste of reading has become more general, and thousand of books are purchased each year by such as have first borrowed them at those libraries, and after reading, approving of them, have become purchasers.'' Knight (1854), p. 234 (also quoted by Plant (1974), p. 265).

Just as publishers were initially leery of book rentals, so were Hollywood studios leery of the home video market. Movie studios tried on several occasions to curb the growth of video rental. Studios wanted to ban rentals entirely, but the ``first-sale doctrine'' indicates that the first purchaser can do what he wants with a piece of intellectual property, so there was no legal ground to prohibit video rental.4

Subsequently the studios tried to modify license arrangements in order to price discriminate between videos sold to end users and those sold to rental outlets. Paramount added a ``surcharge'' of $1 to $10 to their cassette price. Walt Disney productions offered a 12-week rental license that allowed retailers to rent cassettes however often they liked at whatever price they could get.

In 1981 a video rental executive said ``The studios want total control of the cassette from the manufacturer to the customer. The odds for success are fairly low, but in an attempt to do that we'll see constant revisions of rental schemes and another couple of years of turmoil.'' (Leff (1981)).

This forecast was partially correct: the studios tried to control the rental market but failed. By 1983 most of the studios had given up on licensing schemes and were relying on selling tapes to both rental stores and end users at the same price. As in the case of books, the Hollywood producers were lucky that they failed in controlling the growth of the rental market, for it was that very growth that led to their subsequent success.

[Rob2600]

Isn't a library more like a Blockbuster (of literature) without the fees?

Public libraries also lend DVD movies, CDs, and in some cases, video games...so yeah, they are like Blockbuster!

[Sabz5150]

Public libraries also lend DVD movies, CDs, and in some cases, video games...so yeah, they are like Blockbuster!

Our taxes pay for the library's upkeep and collection. So in reality we are pooling our money to let the city build a collection for us that we can use freely.

Socialism I say, socialism! :p

[Icarus Moonsight]

Warning! An enemy battleship Tangent approaches!

Freely use, socialism? I think you're confused. I guess taking your neighbors stuff that you lack falls under fair use too huh? LOL Damn commies... or to make it relevant to the thread, rommies? :p

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105999

[darkhades]

I signed a document last month that said if i witness piracy and don't report it, i will be immediately terminated.


Honestly, i didn't report the dude and i have no intentions of doing so. My goal is to scare people into being afraid of openly discussing piracy. My paycheck comes directly as a result of preventing piracy.


Let's hope no one reports you for not reporting this incident.:wink 2:

[esquire]

Seriously? People don't read reviews or do research before buying a game? You aren't just going to buy a plasma TV on a whim, you are going to do your research.

Not to defend piracy, but the analogy is a bit off. You can return a plasma TV if you don't like it. You can't return opened software.

[esquire]

If the game is broken, return it. If the game is bad, then you're screwed. Just like any other entertainment medium. You can't go to a theater and ask for a refund because The Spirit was garbage.

Ah, but if the movie is skipping, picture grainy or the sound is too low, you don't think we would get a refund from the theater? I have personally got a refund from a movie theater for these very same reasons.

This is a more appropriate analogy for a game released with incomplete code or riddled with bugs.

[ProgrammingAce]

Let's hope no one reports you for not reporting this incident.:wink 2:

If my company wants a reason to fire me, they won't have to go so far as to worry about me reporting piracy on random forums.

[The 1 2 P]

I never pirate games. Hell, I won't even mod my systems(thats what import convertors are for). I do have "1" backup game in my collection, but I had no choice. Had EA actually allowed Thrill Kill to get an official retail release, that would be the copy I own today. But they didn't so screw them. Getting back to what I read on the first page, what kind of ass clown brags about pirating games? And on DP of all places:shameful:

[Iron Draggon]

One word sums up my views: Spore.

When companies don't treat people like criminals with DRM and lockouts that prevent them from doing something perfectly legal (homebrew, legal emulation and backups, etc.) then the people may stop acting like criminals.

EXACTLY... what makes the industry think it's OK to circumvent our fair use?


What about hard to find/unreleased stuff? Imports? If there is no chance of it coming out anytime soon, or no way the person will be able to pay and play it through conventional means, should that piracy be banned?

I don't think this makes it OK to pirate it, but I do think it makes developers sound whiney when they bitch about what they want, yet refuse to give their customers what they want... that's why piracy flourishes... because developers declared war on consumers, and consumers are fighting back


I don't want to deal with DRM. DRM and other "protection methods" are more about sacking the customer for more cash than worrying about hypothetical statistics about how much a company "might have lost" due to the evil pirates. it always has been. Case in point? Broadcast flag. Guess what? After mid February, we're all taking a bite of that particular sh!t sandwich. Why do you think DTV is being pushed by the industry? Tivo and DVD recorders are cutting into profits at the movie stores. Now we can dictate what they can and cannot record. And commercials? Can't skip them. Take that Sony v. Betamax!!!

Again... Spore. Who thought it was a good idea to restrict reinstallation? Why is this person working somewhere besides Taco Bell? Who are you to dictate how many times I reinstall my machine? Why are you saying that I can no longer use the software *I LEGALLY PURCHASED* anymore, simply because I wiped my box?I purchased a license to your software, I expect to be able to use it.

You want a lesson in the DRM/piracy link? There it is.

I don't support piracy and I purchase my games legally (that's the point of this hobby) but the other edge of that sword is that I have no pity for ANY developer or company that employs DRM. Not one single shred. If I purchase a game with DRM, I will use every method I have to crack it, simply so I don't have to deal with the headaches. I back up my games. This is Fair Use. So why again are you restricting my *FAIR USE*?

BINGO... DRM is really about media control... he who controls the media controls the masses... he who controls the masses controls the world


PC gaming is dead. Unless your game connects to some sort of service like Steam or is an MMO, you're dead in the water. As a matter of fact, i hope PC gaming dies a quick death. I hope EA DRM's each and every release they put out to the point where people stop buying their games. But they won't stop buying the games... because the average person doesn't care.

My first job in this industry was as an AI programmer for a AAA PC game. I'm no stranger to that side of the business. When you only sell 50,000 copies of your game, and you have 75,000 accounts on your multiplayer list, then your platform of choice is screwed.

Let's take a look at the top 10 best selling PC games for the week before christmas:

1. World Of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King (Blizzard)
2. Spore (EA Maxis)
3. Call Of Duty: World At War (Treyarch)
4. Left 4 Dead (Valve)
5. Fallout 3 (Bethesda)
6. The Sims 2 Deluxe (EA Maxis)
7. The Sims 2 Apartment Life expansion pack (EA Maxis)
8. Bejeweled Twist (PopCap)
9. World of Warcraft Battle Chest (Blizzard)
10. The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff expansion pack (EA Maxis)

Wow, there's a branch of the industry we should struggle to keep alive, eh?

Screw DTV and broadcast flags, that's your problem. I haven't watched TV since 2003. You're arguing with the wrong guy on that one. I didn't like the restrictions, so i stopped watching. I recommend you do the same.



So as long as you only break the law to make sure a game is good, you should be free to do so. Is that your point? How about you just try out the demo? If the game doesn't have a demo, don't buy it! If they choose not to have a demo, it isn't your right to pirate the game.

Agan, what do you propose? We allow everyone to pirate whatever they want for 24 hours? How do you expect to police that without.... DRM?

you hope your industry goes out of business? sounds like you need to find yourself a new line of work and quit blaming others for your hate of your job


I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

it's also illegal to deny the consumer fair use, but who's enforcing that law? NO ONE, because the entertainment industry is paying law enforcement not to


You really need to try games on PC before buying them for performance and reliability reasons, and I haven't seen PC games for rent anywhere in the last five years.

YEAH, nothing like paying $50 to find out a game is incompatible with your PC!


70% of what i own is used. When you have 2000 games, even if you only save $5 each you've saved $10,000. If i want a game, and the used version isn't available then i'll buy new. So if they don't sell many copies, then they get a new sale. If they've already sold a ton and gamestop is floating in them, then they don't get the extra sale from me.

The whole "used games are stealing" argument is retarded. Right of first sale and all that nonsense.

The fact that publishers aren't usually willing to make additional print runs when the consumers desire it kind of kills the idea of not having used sales. You can't have it both ways. You can't create artificial scarcity and then bar people from selling used.

AGREED on that one... now why don't you devote your efforts to teaching the rest of your industry that concept? the movie and music industries learned it, so why is the game industry still clinging to the idea that we should all have no interest at all in any game over a month old, and just buy new games every month without getting any credit for all the old games we bought? it's because they're GREEDY, so they're getting exactly what they deserve from pirates... show the masses how greedy you are, and the masses will show you how stingy they are with their money... it's tit for tat


All that I ask is that I am allowed fair use. I don't want to steal games, that isn't the point of our particular hobby. DRM prevents my fair use. For that, I say let the pirates plunder. I won't participate, but until you stop screwing me, don't expect help.

DITTO... quit stealing people's fair use rights, and maybe they'll quit stealing your games... keep it up with the DRM and the pirates will keep on pirating


To Ace:
Every single game with DRM will have a crack available about 10 minutes after release; Not really effective except to piss off legitimate consumers. I've personally had to reformat my entire system once due to this crap. DRM needs to die fast. Go back to frigging code wheels if you have to.

FOR REAL... DRM is a futile nuisance that just encourages even more piracy... so if the industry's intent is to commit suicide with it, it's doing a great job!


But... you still broke the law then. And you're the reason we need to use DRM.

See, i'm *telling* you not to buy PC games. I hope the PC game industry goes down in flames. The conusumers aren't happy, the publishers aren't happy... it's time for PC gaming to end. If you don't like DRM, stop buying the products and let the industry die. I've bought one PC game since 2003, and it was a buggy pile of junk.

Stop breaking the law, stop bitching about DRM and do something about it.

why doesn't the industry just leave the law enforcement to law enforcement, instead of trying to enforce the laws themselves, while breaking fair use laws?


I am saying that there is no legally enforceable way to counter importing. Piracy is illegal because you are infringing upon IP. Importing is just something the companies do not like.

EXACTLY... no reason at all why everything can't be sold globally, other than most industries want to regionalize so they can exploit regional economies


I know that downloading any game that is still under copyright is illegal (the copyright won't expire for seventy or eighty more years). But is it ethically wrong to download a game that you can't buy in a retail store anymore? I will never pirate a new game, as I like to support developers, especially on the PC where we see fewer and fewer good games every year. But I hate paying exorbitant prices on eBay or whatever for old PC games that are good but you cannot find in stores. You aren't stealing money from the developer, as there are no more copies of the game being produced.

which is why developers need to quit bitching about used game sales and get in the business of selling their back catalogs of games at affordable prices


Here is my big gripe on the PC market. Not just games, but apps as well. Once you have opened the shrink wrap you are bound by the license and terms of use BS that comes with it. Of course, with lots of software, you can't even see what these terms are until you are installing it. A little late if there happens to be something in the terms that you don't agree with.

JY

which is why most EULA's prove to be unenforcable... because they're illegal


Why aren't public libraries illegal? They let people borrow and read through entire books without people having to buy them, that takes money away from authors and publishers.

and yet the publishing industry still thrives... it's miraculous, isn't it? but the entertainment industry wants us all to believe that they're starving to death because we're starving them of all the sales that they think they should be entitled to... funny how they still survive as well, despite all their whining about it, huh? it makes you wonder why they can't figure out how silly all their arguments sound to consumers and those who pirate their wares... we know better, but they still fail to realize this, and continue trying to force us to believe that they aren't really far richer than the everage consumer ever will be... poor me, poor me, I'm still not getting paid all the money in the world yet... just like the average consumer... so you're barking up the wrong tree if you're wanting sympathy for the fate of humanity... we're not all rich either, and we're all struggling to survive too... welcome to the human race!

now STFU... nobody cares if you survive or die... we just want entertainment!

with the lights out, it's less dangerous... here we are now, entertain us! :rocker:

[ProgrammingAce]

EXACTLY... what makes the industry think it's OK to circumvent our fair use?



Because you keep buying their products. Society as a whole is addicted to entertainment, and they know they have you by the balls. You will have to convince society to give up their entertainment to change DRM policies. Good luck with that.



you hope your industry goes out of business? sounds like you need to find yourself a new line of work and quit blaming others for your hate of your job



I love my job, and would do the same thing at another company or industry. Right now, nobody is happy with the current state of PC gaming. Publishers are refusing to evolve, so they need to die. It's simple, really.



it's also illegal to deny the consumer fair use, but who's enforcing that law? NO ONE, because the entertainment industry is paying law enforcement not to



I'm not sure that it is illegal to deny fair use. It's immoral, certainly, but you have every right not to buy our products.




YEAH, nothing like paying $50 to find out a game is incompatible with your PC!



Then return it as defective. If the store doesn't take the return, then do a charge back on your credit card, if you paid cash, you may have to take them to court. Stores don't get to ignore consumer protection laws because they put a sign up. Fight for what you believe in. I've taken back several PC games that didn't function.




DITTO... quit stealing people's fair use rights, and maybe they'll quit stealing your games... keep it up with the DRM and the pirates will keep on pirating



If you don't like the DRM, the correct response would be to not buy the game. The illegal response would be to pirate it.



why doesn't the industry just leave the law enforcement to law enforcement, instead of trying to enforce the laws themselves, while breaking fair use laws?



Again, i'm not convinced you can be fined for preventing fair use anymore. And we don't try to do law enforcement's job, we're just going to ban you from Xbox Live, not send you to jail.

[Half Japanese]

This post is win. Go ahead and pirate, but if you're the douche selling burned dreamcast games on craigslist...

I always report scumfucks on Craigslist trying to sell bootleg shit. Stop crying about how you're a broke college student and get a fuckin' job.