Piracy

[noname11]

I always report scumfucks on Craigslist trying to sell bootleg shit. Stop crying about how you're a broke college student and get a fuckin' job.

No offense, but i never understood why people like to report others/ get involved when they themselves are not the potential victim. What makes people want to get involved or be a potential witness? Personally, I wouldn't waste my precious free time making enemies or doing the police's work for them.

Just food for thought, i dont mean to offend anyone.

[monkeychemist]

No offense, but i never understood why people like to report others/ get involved when they themselves are not the potential victim. What makes people want to get involved or be a potential witness? Personally, I wouldn't waste my precious free time making enemies or doing the police's work for them.

Just food for thought, i dont mean to offend anyone.

because it makes them feel better about their crappy lives to report people. They never grew up from the tattle-tale maturity level.

[JSoup]

I never understood the need for people to try and tell others off for piracy. It's not like me knowing your innermost hatred for ROMs and CD cracks is going to make me change my ways. If I want to download a game or buy a modded system, I'm going to. If I wish to post about it, I will (within the rules of any given forum I might be on).

That said, about the only game I bother downloading these days are old GameBoy games that are nearly impossible to find in any tangible form. I hardly think me pirating a 15 year old game that sold like ass is going to cause any financial troubles for Nintendo.

[zektor]

My country was brought up on alcohol, tobacco and piracy!

[ProgrammingAce]

because it makes them feel better about their crappy lives to report people. They never grew up from the tattle-tale maturity level.

I wonder if you realize you're talking to the guy who published the method for burning discs to run on an unmodded saturn? No swapping discs, no changes to the system... Just burn the disc right and it'll play in any saturn.

I'm by no means against modding, i'm against people stealing from me.

[dendawg]

I wonder if you realize you're talking to the guy who published the method for burning discs to run on an unmodded saturn? No swapping discs, no changes to the system... Just burn the disc right and it'll play in any saturn.

So, in other words, you invented a method that could potentially enable piracy? :above me:

[Half Japanese]

No offense, but i never understood why people like to report others/ get involved when they themselves are not the potential victim. What makes people want to get involved or be a potential witness? Personally, I wouldn't waste my precious free time making enemies or doing the police's work for them.

Just food for thought, i dont mean to offend anyone.

I do it because it clutters up Craigslist with people selling junk. Believe me, it's far more about a hatred of lazy bottom-feeders than putting "intellectual property" (doesn't that always sound silly?) on some sort of pedestal.


because it makes them feel better about their crappy lives to report people. They never grew up from the tattle-tale maturity level.

Oh, piss off. Like I said, if you're doing it for your own personal use or are sharing with friends without monetary gain, I turn a blind eye every time. If there were someone on Craigslist posting about swapping DVD-R's of rare films that haven't been (and likely won't be) released on DVD, I'll go on about my business laughing at people who seriously think their collection of scratched Steven Seagall DVDs are worth $10 a piece.

[ProgrammingAce]

So, in other words, you invented a method that could potentially enable piracy? :above me:

Yep, i've been involved in the creation and development of methods that can be used for piracy across several systems. It's something i'm proud of.

I fully support someone who wants to mod their hardware for the learning experience or to legally backup their data. But on the other hand, i'll be the first to report your ass if you cross the line.

Keep it legal, and we'll be cool.

[monkeychemist]

I wonder if you realize you're talking to the guy who published the method for burning discs to run on an unmodded saturn? No swapping discs, no changes to the system... Just burn the disc right and it'll play in any saturn.

I'm by no means against modding, i'm against people stealing from me.


I do it because it clutters up Craigslist with people selling junk. Believe me, it's far more about a hatred of lazy bottom-feeders than putting "intellectual property" (doesn't that always sound silly?) on some sort of pedestal.



Oh, piss off. Like I said, if you're doing it for your own personal use or are sharing with friends without monetary gain, I turn a blind eye every time. If there were someone on Craigslist posting about swapping DVD-R's of rare films that haven't been (and likely won't be) released on DVD, I'll go on about my business laughing at people who seriously think their collection of scratched Steven Seagall DVDs are worth $10 a piece.

my point is, just let the proper authorities find and deal with those people that *you* think crossed the line. If they have not gotten caught yet then that means they have not crossed the line enough for the proper people to jump on them. Do you think getting someone banned on craigslist or ebay will change their ways? Do you think that by removing one or 2 spammers craigslist will finally be spam free? please...

[JSoup]

my point is, just let the proper authorities find and deal with those people that *you* think crossed the line. If they have not gotten caught yet then that means they have not crossed the line enough for the proper people to jump on them. Do you think getting someone banned on craigslist or ebay will change their ways? Do you think that by removing one or 2 spammers craigslist will finally be spam free? please...

If anything, knowing that three or four dedicated douche bags are taking time to hunt down auctions that 'cross the line' would encourage me to list more in as many places as I could. The number one problem with selling anything online is trying to get someone to bite. Generally, these people who get their rocks off to reporting others will, at some point, brag about it, either in a blog or forum. This leads others, who may not have every thought to look in certain places for whatever is being sold, to actively search these certain places.

[Half Japanese]

my point is, just let the proper authorities find and deal with those people that *you* think crossed the line. If they have not gotten caught yet then that means they have not crossed the line enough for the proper people to jump on them. Do you think getting someone banned on craigslist or ebay will change their ways? Do you think that by removing one or 2 spammers craigslist will finally be spam free? please...

So if some asshole's smacking his bitch up in a parking lot, you're the guy that stuffs his hands in his pockets, says to himself "it's none of my business" and tries to keep his head down and eyes averted. Technically you're probably right, it isn't my business, but if we let some dick beat the shit out of his girlfriend in the parking lot and go unreported or unpunished, do you think that encourages or discourages such trashy behavior?

All I do at Craigslist is hit the "prohibited" link on the top right corner, and it's not like I think of myself as some sort of superhero character out on my nightly patrols; I only do it when I browse Craigslit, which isn't terribly often. Besides, if I wanted to be an anti-spam crusader I'd hit up the "work from home" job listings.

[monkeychemist]

So if some asshole's smacking his bitch up in a parking lot, you're the guy that stuffs his hands in his pockets, says to himself "it's none of my business" and tries to keep his head down and eyes averted. Technically you're probably right, it isn't my business, but if we let some dick beat the shit out of his girlfriend in the parking lot and go unreported or unpunished, do you think that encourages or discourages such trashy behavior?

what a terrible analogy! domestic abuse is not quite the same as video game piracy...

try again

[Lord_Magus]

It seems to me that many people often get confused with the intellectually challenging concept of "piracy vs crime". Copying a disc CANNOT be placed in the same category as beating your wife, or breaking into a store and stealing a Lamborghini... jesus...

Also, if anyone here needs an argument as to why reporting your fellow man when they're not directly harming you makes you the lowest possible scum, then you have officially failed at life. I know that "you're supposed to do it", that "it's the law" and the other zombie-like arguments, but there's a huge difference between doing a greater good and simply harassing another person.

Even the pirates themselves on craigslist (or wherever), are simply selling stuff to people who are willing to buy it. In some countries its legal/overlooked, in others it isn't, but either way it's the job of the authorities to decide that and potentially act upon it. They're not selling heroin in your neighborhood, they're not banging your wife, they're not harming you directly in any conceivable way - the only thing that's happening is a few random strangers ending up with a dodgy movie/game copy or something, and I've seen far, far worse things happen to people who buy legal stuff in legal ways. (360 RRoD anyone? LOL)

ProgrammingAce, as a fellow programmer and professional game developer myself, I find your "pirates are stealing from me" arguments to be laughable at best. It sort of reminds me of the people who when confronted with poor service from a public worker, they get offended and think they deserve better because they're "paying for the worker's wages out of their taxes"! LOL

Seriously though, no one is taking money out of your pocket dude, cut that shit out. Of course, no developer likes their games to not sell well, but - more importantly - no gamer likes buying games that are riddled with bugs, unfinished or just not fun. If you want to make more money(which seems to be your main problem), stop whining about it on game forums and spend more time making a good (and ideally, well advertised) game instead.

The truth is that regardless of how much some of you want to bitch about it, piracy is not a major problem for the games industry. It's simple: good games will sell well, and bad games will not, regardless of how many copies are enjoyed for free in between. If you indeed stumble upon a pirate, the best thing to do is to talk to and educate them, or at worst simply ignore them (because as we established above, ratting is for scum). Even when you do talk to them, it shouldn't be about "pirating is wrong", but about why owning an original game instead of a pirated one is simply more fulfilling and rewarding. If they already understand that (like I happily noticed most of our fellow DPers do), then the case is closed :)

[Starwander]

The truth is that regardless of how much some of you want to bitch about it, piracy is not a major problem for the games industry. It's simple: good games will sell well, and bad games will not, regardless of how many copies are enjoyed for free in between. If you indeed stumble upon a pirate, the best thing to do is to talk to and educate them, or at worst simply ignore them (because as we established above, ratting is for scum). Even when you do talk to them, it shouldn't be about "pirating is wrong", but about why owning an original game instead of a pirated one is simply more fulfilling and rewarding. If they already understand that (like I happily noticed most of our fellow DPers do), then the case is closed :)

This is an interesting idea that you put forward and is one expressed by many pirates and non-pirates alike, although I think that there are underlying issues that these ideas fail to address. One cannot deny that the cost of game development is only continuing to increase. In order for game companies to recoup that cost they need to tag that price onto the cost of the games themselves. Therefore all those people buying the games are the ones paying for its development costs.

When fewer people pay for the game because they are downloading the game illegally, they are only forcing the paying minority to burden an unequal share of the cost of development. In other words the more copies of the game that a developer can sell the less cost that each paying person has to burden for the development costs. Downloading a game might be justifiable by a pirate for any number of reasons, although they really do hurt the game industry as a whole by forcing us paying customers to pay more for the products that we enjoy.

Overall it boils down to the issue of what is theft. By definition theft is the taking of something that isn’t yours without the other person’s permission. Downloading a game, regardless of the reason, is still theft by definition. If you are okay with piracy then I have to ask you pirates out there are you okay with shoplifting? Many shoplifters use the argument that these companies are rich and can afford the loss and therefore they are not harming anyone, although this argument is erroneous at best. Piracy is just an easier form of shoplifting.

[ProgrammingAce]

The truth is that regardless of how much some of you want to bitch about it, piracy is not a major problem for the games industry.

Are you kidding me? Have you ever looked at piratebay?

People who don't pay for games don't deserve to play them. I get paid to prevent people from pirating games, and I am the proper authority to report them. Sometimes if you brag about piracy, you're going to do it in front of the wrong person and you'll get burned. That's a risk pirates take.

Like i said before, I don't really care if you pirate shit in your own home, but you go around bragging about it, you're a moron and i'm going to report it.

The worst thing i can do is get your console banned from xbox live. If you're stupid enough to brag about piracy on a public forum, that seems a fair punishment.

[dendawg]

I fully support someone who wants to mod their hardware for the learning experience or to legally backup their data. But on the other hand, i'll be the first to report your ass if you cross the line.



http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/3/23/superiorkitteh128507876619062500.jpg


Ah, come the fuck off it, already!!

If you're going to report people for piracy, then get ready to report every single member of this board, because we all have, in one form or another, engaged in it.

That's right folks, we have! Be it making a mix tape for our loved ones, using the trusty old VCR/Tivo to record a TV show, copying that damn floppy, downloading an MP3, or even heavens forbid the ultimate sin, a ROM set!

Piracy has been around since the days of the punch card, and will continue to be around, no matter how much DRM is crammed into the latest and future games. If you think that an uncrackable system will ever be invented, then just remember how fast the HD-DVD keys were cracked. Arrrrrr, Matey! :evil laugh: :fist:

[neuropolitique]

A thief thinks everyone is a thief.

[dendawg]

A realist thinks everyone is a thief.

Fixed.

[ProgrammingAce]

Ah, come the fuck off it, already!!

If you're going to report people for piracy, then get ready to report every single member of this board, because we all have, in one form or another, engaged in it.

Uh, ok... I guess if that's what you want, i can do that. Seems like kind of a weird request though. I'm not sure why you'd want me to do it...

From here on out, i'll report anyone who admits to pirating any games that are still in print. But only because you asked me to.

[s1lence]

Fixed.



http://operachic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/04/otehdrama.jpg

[Rob2600]

How come piracy doesn't affect sales of Wii games? Over 8.5 million people bought Super Smash Bros. Brawl. How many people in the world have pirated it? Anyone??

[JSoup]

http://operachic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/04/otehdrama.jpg

Where have you been for the last four pages of posts?

[mills]

I work for GameStop as a sales representative.

Fix'D

[Icarus Moonsight]

Umm, Ace is a great guy people. Quit giving him shit, especially if you don't know WTF you're talking about.

[ProgrammingAce]

Umm, Ace is a great guy people. Quit giving him shit, especially if you don't know WTF you're talking about.

Calling me scum might be a little overboard, but otherwise i'm cool with it. I started the thread to see what people's opinions are.

I definitely have a "unique" view on piracy, i don't expect others to share my stance.

[skaar]

I'm just wondering what the need is for all of this to continue... this isn't exactly in the spirit of "Video Game Collectors and "Retrogamers" UNITE!"

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1318/1454031202_59a042826c_o.jpg

Just walk away.

[dendawg]

I work for GameStop as a sales representative.


Fix'D

That's going a little far.

I would never insult a Gamestop employee like that. :p

[intvsama]

Piracy kicked my dog and poured salt in my coffee.

[Leo_A]

Yep, i've been involved in the creation and development of methods that can be used for piracy across several systems. It's something i'm proud of.

I fully support someone who wants to mod their hardware for the learning experience or to legally backup their data. But on the other hand, i'll be the first to report your ass if you cross the line.

Keep it legal, and we'll be cool.


In other words, its okay for you to do it, but no one else? As far as I'm aware, making backups is as illegal as one of us downloading the latest Xbox 360 game to play. And its just as illegal for someone to download Combat on the Atari 2600 as it is Halo 3, or making backups for a disc you own versus just downloading it. You can't have double standards, stop trying to be the piracy police.

I'll freely admit to downloading roms for classic systems, but I'm not so hypocritical that I'll go out criticizing those that do it for new consoles and threaten to get their consoles banned or get the authorities involved. One is just as illegal as the other.

I think morally, one is fine while the other is wrong (Downloading classic titles that aren't commercially available versus stuff on store shelfs readily available to buy). But at least I only preach, I don't take my morals and then decide the legality of one or the other for those around me.

I'll keep downloading my roms of Combat and buying classic tv series and movies on DVD-r's that aren't available commercially. At least I won't go trying to twist laws to say what I'm doing is legally okay compared to someone else's opinions.

Morally, I'm comfortable with the piracy I do because I don't pirate material that is actively being sold, and I support IP owners if they choose to release something I've pirated by buying it.

[darkslime]

In other words, its okay for you to do it, but no one else? As far as I'm aware, making backups is as illegal as one of us downloading the latest Xbox 360 game to play. And its just as illegal for someone to download Combat on the Atari 2600 as it is Halo 3, or making backups for a disc you own versus just downloading it. You can't have double standards, stop trying to be the piracy police.

I'll freely admit to downloading roms for classic systems, but I'm not so hypocritical that I'll go out criticizing those that do it for new consoles and threaten to get their consoles banned or get the authorities involved. One is just as illegal as the other.

I think morally, one is fine while the other is wrong (Downloading classic titles that aren't commercially available versus stuff on store shelfs readily available to buy). But at least I only preach, I don't take my morals and then decide the legality of one or the other for those around me.

I'll keep downloading my roms of Combat and buying classic tv series and movies on DVD-r's that aren't available commercially. At least I won't go trying to twist laws to say what I'm doing is legally okay compared to someone else's opinions.

Morally, I'm comfortable with the piracy I do because I don't pirate material that is actively being sold, and I support IP owners if they choose to release something I've pirated by buying it. I basically agree with this.
Just one thing, why do you buy DVDRs of unrealeased stuff if you can just download them on some torrent most of the time?

[Icarus Moonsight]

If you can't see the difference between burning an obscure/pricey (dead system, quite a few used games sell over their original MSRP) Saturn domestic or import and burning a copy of a new release (sometimes even before it hits street) 360 game you're a complete and total idiot.

In reference to skaar's post, I agree. Just walk away. There was room for civil discourse a few pages ago, but this is just insulting and a waste.


Calling me scum might be a little overboard, but otherwise i'm cool with it. I started the thread to see what people's opinions are.

I definitely have a "unique" view on piracy, i don't expect others to share my stance.

That's because you have thick skin. I really don't care what most people think of me either. That doesn't mean I'm not going to call people on their bullshit when I know better. LOL

And with that, I believe I am through here...

[Gameguy]

No offense, but i never understood why people like to report others/ get involved when they themselves are not the potential victim. What makes people want to get involved or be a potential witness? Personally, I wouldn't waste my precious free time making enemies or doing the police's work for them.

Just food for thought, i dont mean to offend anyone.
You can always ignore when someone is doing something wrong, but if you're ever unsure of what to do just think......what would Batman do? Would he ignore the problem or fix it himself? You'll find your answer. :-D



I do it because it clutters up Craigslist with people selling junk. Believe me, it's far more about a hatred of lazy bottom-feeders than putting "intellectual property" (doesn't that always sound silly?) on some sort of pedestal.
I do occasionally report ads, mostly when people post the same ad 10 times all grouped together. There's no need to post more than one ad at a time for any specific item. Those and the ads that just link to websites, saying they won a free system along with their sister/brother and you will too. Other stuff I pretty much ignore, usually it's just someone selling off their old system with all the stuff they have with it(a few copies might be included), usually the stuff doesn't sell anyway because they want too much for it.




I feel people still pirate games just for the challenge, just for the satisfaction of finding a way around something(like a solution to a puzzle). I don't know if most people actually like the games they pirate. In the old days, how many games did most people buy for their system? At garage sales you'll see a system with about 10 games or less for sale, these days people buy way more than that for a system. If all people stopped pirating games, I'm not sure if any more copies will sell or if people will just have fewer games. I personally don't pirate games because I like collecting games, I'll want actual copies of the games anyway. I can wait until I find copies selling for cheap(I don't mind waiting years).

Though publishers and developers may be losing money due to pirating, the makers of CD-Rs must be making more money because of it. That's the real future to invest in.

[Leo_A]

Morally, I can see the difference. Legally, there is none. You can't threaten using laws, then twist them to justify your own piracy. As for why I buy something like 12 seasons of My Three Sons for $30 rather then download and burn myself, convenience.

[monkeychemist]

You can always ignore when someone is doing something wrong, but if you're ever unsure of what to do just think......what would Batman do? Would he ignore the problem or fix it himself? You'll find your answer. :-D

Actually, this is a bad thing to ask yourself. While Batman may be a hero to the people of Gotham, he is a vigilante, and that is against the law. So Batman may use his batarang to break the pirated X360 DVD in your hand, if a cop is there he would be more inclined to arrest him instead.

(From this point on, *you* is rhetorical and not meaning specifically Gameguy) All joking aside, I think all those that push their morals on others are wrong for that same reason. Maybe you think pirating is the worst thing people can do to you, but then maybe you do something that those pirates believe is morally wrong. That is why we have a code a laws and people hired to enforce them. If you are not writing the law or hired to enforce them, BUTT OUT!!

Besides, let's make a comparison. Last I heard the Wii can be modded to play downloaded games. The PS3 cannot. Now which one is hurting? Pirating doesn't hurt as much as the Drama Llamas make it out to be. Awesome pic to the poster earlier BTW!!!

[Gameguy]

Actually, this is a bad thing to ask yourself. While Batman may be a hero to the people of Gotham, he is a vigilante, and that is against the law. So Batman may use his batarang to break the pirated X360 DVD in your hand, if a cop is there he would be more inclined to arrest him instead.
I was just refering to reporting craigslist ads, not really to stop all piracy. Otherwise acting like Batman would be bad. Except for Batman: The Animated Series, he's just nuts.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6907/20050502el0.gif

If people were to pirate the shovelware games, would there be less of those made because they would end up with less money?

EDIT: I thought of another example, specifically with web comics. Most web comics I've come across are totaly free to look at, and anyone can save every image that's available to see in the archives. But a lot of web comics(the better quality ones) have printed volumes available for purchase online through their stores. Even though anyone can get the entire comic for free, there are still plenty of people willing to buy actual volumes of the comic. For a lot of these comics, there doesn't appear to be much advertising to get people to visit their site, it's all from word of mouth(or fans posting about them on the internet).

Plus, with PC games the way they're packaged has changed a lot in the last few years. They used to be packaged in a big box with manuals and other inserts. Now they're in smaller boxes and many just include a disk in a paper sleeve. The prices seem to remain the same in general, despite the cheaper packaging. What happened to the quality packaging? And with console games the price point for popular games(Mario and Zelda type titles as an example) seems to be about the same, yet games are now on cheap to produce CDs instead of more expensive cartridges, why aren't most games selling cheaper? DS games seem to be released with lower prices yet those games aren't CDs, why is that?

[ProgrammingAce]

In other words, its okay for you to do it, but no one else? As far as I'm aware, making backups is as illegal as one of us downloading the latest Xbox 360 game to play. And its just as illegal for someone to download Combat on the Atari 2600 as it is Halo 3, or making backups for a disc you own versus just downloading it. You can't have double standards, stop trying to be the piracy police.

As far as i'm aware, it is legal to reverse engineer videogames for the purposes of cross compatibility. It is also legal to reverse engineer security systems in order to identify security flaws, it is then legal to publish your findings.

So yes, it is ok for me to do it. Since i'm not actually pirating anything.

The fun part of all this, is that i've never reported anyone outside of work for piracy. Nor do i really intend to do so. But i'm defending that option in case i feel like it in the future. I don't see anything wrong with reporting pirates for my own amusement.

[Richter Belmount]

Actually, this is a bad thing to ask yourself. While Batman may be a hero to the people of Gotham, he is a vigilante, and that is against the law. So Batman may use his batarang to break the pirated X360 DVD in your hand, if a cop is there he would be more inclined to arrest him instead.

(From this point on, *you* is rhetorical and not meaning specifically Gameguy) All joking aside, I think all those that push their morals on others are wrong for that same reason. Maybe you think pirating is the worst thing people can do to you, but then maybe you do something that those pirates believe is morally wrong. That is why we have a code a laws and people hired to enforce them. If you are not writing the law or hired to enforce them, BUTT OUT!!


Oh You think you know Batman? Did you even bother to read the Dark Knight Returns?! Batman may be a Vigilante but he isn't going to give into the man like you! That was the old school fascist Batman , Frank Miller made a comparison between Batman and a Nazi , however Frank Miller decided to write his version of Batman differently. Where Batman the fascist Batman is stigmatized by a Fascist Government. Then Batman all of a sudden is fighting the power now ergo Batman would fight for my right to download music and video games. The moralities of Batman have grown and changed over time , his morales are our morales.

[Volcanon]

In 2004 I tried to return a game and the store not only refused to take it back (the game had an unstipulated requirement, that it by default went some high resolution that my shitty monitor couldn't support even though it COULD run at a lower one), but they insultingly suggested I could go sell it to EB (and get what? $2? It was a compilation of old games) and then called security on me. Seriously - just because I was refusing to take their shit.

I should have charge-backed but it didn't occur to me (ah, innocence). After having bought the pile of shit Master of Orion III a month before, I swore off doing the "honorable" thing and buying the game first. Now I ONLY pay for games after I know they aren't trash, which isn't really often because I mostly play retro stuff.

[Cauterize]

Hmmm, I havent had the chance to read all of this thread, but I thought I might add a little to it.

Where as I dont work directly in the games industry, I work in something closer to it than alot of other jobs. Im an interactive designer for a new media agency (Websites, flash games and so on).
I can totally agree with Programming Ace's view on this as plagarism/piracy is a serious problem.

Copying a disc is very easy and requires no effort whatsoever. Its obviously a hell of alot cheaper than paying for the product, but what isnt taken into consideration is the people who have created this for you in the beginning.

Coding a game is not easy and not something you can do within minutes. Hell, even some of the most basic flash games on the internet are written on over a thousand lines of code. Then you have the graphics that need doing, 3d models, textures and so on. Then follows the sound and music which of course will be done by music composers.

Each one of these individual people(s) behind the title 'programmer', 'composer', '3d modeller', 'designer' is just like you and me, someone who needs to earn a living. Someone who might have a large family or medical bills that urgently need paying. Obviously, piracy will limit the earnings overall.

Now what im trying to say is this. I havent been working for very long, im young and its my first step on the career ladder. However from the short space of time ive had doing design/code is that, a hell of alot of time, effort and thought goes into the end product.
Although its flattery to know a game is so good everyone wants to play it no matter whats, its the time and effort that is completely pissed over and our livings brought to halt because of it.

But the bottom line is that if you cant afford to buy a game, then you cant have it.
Back in the day you couldnt copy NES games (Yes i know there are copy devices for the Famicom, but lets forget about them for now), we all had a few games, got a few when it was birthdays, xmas or when we got paid (for the older ones amongst us) and we made do with them and enjoyed them.

I do think piracy has part to blame in the decline of decent games over the last ten years. Why put effort into a unique game that might be amazing if its not going to make any profit after the piracy costs have been taken into consideration.

And my final point is, if you continue to pirate, the only games that will appear on the market are these god damn awful Wii mini game packs that are rehashes of the last and games by budget release groups like Phoenix and Midas.



Hmmm... Im not really very good at getting my point across. Hopefully itll make sense though! English wasnt my favourite subject back at school... :-\

[ProgrammingAce]

In 2004 I tried to return a game and the store not only refused to take it back (the game had an unstipulated requirement, that it by default went some high resolution that my shitty monitor couldn't support even though it COULD run at a lower one), but they insultingly suggested I could go sell it to EB (and get what? $2? It was a compilation of old games) and then called security on me. Seriously - just because I was refusing to take their shit.

While most stores refuse to take back a "return" for open software, they have to take back a defective product in most states. It may take some convincing, but usually if you tell the manager you're willing to return every copy they have in inventory, they'll usually give you a refund. Or throw you out of the building... but then you have grounds for a lawsuit.

Stores violating your consumer protection rights really have nothing to do with the game publishers.

Out of curiosity, for the games you "try before you buy", what happens when the game sucks? You download the game illegally, then delete it with no intention of ever purchasing it? Of course that shouldn't be counted as a lost sale, but that's kind of a dickish move on your part...

[Jimid2]

I do think piracy has part to blame in the decline of decent games over the last ten years. Why put effort into a unique game that might be amazing if its not going to make any profit after the piracy costs have been taken into consideration.

I completely disagree with this...

Piracy is a complex issue, but I don't believe for a minute that piracy significantly impacts on the sales of anything, with the rare and possible exception of PC Games without DRM or added content...

Our (and by "our" I mean The Western World's) major problem with "piracy" right now stems from a mass-media campaign by old content aimed at blaming piracy for their failing business model and declining profits so they can further strengthen their control of content at the expense of the consumer by pushing grotesque laws like the Millenium Copyright Act through. These actions are taken mostly on the part of entrenched content - represented by the MPAA and RIAA in the US - and they really don't give a rat's arse about the well-being of the content creators, they're simply out to protect their enormous profit margins on packaging and distribution in an age when packaging and distribution are becoming increasingly less relevant... The game industry is kind of sort of pulled into this maelstrom because they originally subscribed to the same distribution model, but all that is changing, and it's changing most quickly with games...

Back in the bad-old-days when games like Doom III were pirated so heavily that there were twice as many users playing it on-line as had actually bought it, Piracy was certainly taking a significant chunk out of PC game sales. Stand alone PC games today probably still suffer from piracy, we know, but the suggestion that any game fails because of piracy is nonesense... The truth is that the vast majority of "downloaded" copies of any given game - and I'm talking more than 90% of the downloads - would never, ever result in a sale, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that a huge number of the people "pirating" these games could never afford the $50 to buy them in the first place.

The issue of piracy on consoles is virtually a non-starter: it's so difficult to mod hardware to pirate games on any of the current consoles that no one could seriously consider piracy a potential contributor to the decline or failure of any particular game title or platform. The easiest console to "mod" for piracy right now is without a doubt also the most popular and successful one: all you need to mod the Nintendo DS is a cheaply and easily purchased flash cart that lets you copy game ROMs onto a microSD card and you can play any game you want for free. Despite this fact, DS game sales are through the roof and developers are falling over themselves to push out crap for the system; you never hear anyone complain about piracy eating into their game sales... Otoh, PSP fanboy whiners love to pull out the piracy card to defend the wretched games sales on their platform, but the evidence doesn't demonstrate any real issue. Look at the numbers of downloads on any edition of CFW on release, and you'll see that far less than 5% of the PSPs sold to date are running custom firmware, and the biggest torrents of the biggest games will run less than 50,000 downloads within three weeks of release. If you can't sell a million copies of your game on the PSP, it's not because everyone's pirating it who would have bought it otherwise; it's because for some reason, nobody is buying games for their PSPs...

Meanwhile, in the PC realm, where piracy really can take a toll on game sales, drm is helping to change the landscape, and clever developers are even finding ways to use piracy to their advantage to some degree. Games like Call of Duty 4 were highly pirated but sold extremely well regardless, because the licensed version offered a lot more than you could hope to get from a cracked torrented copy, particularly in terms of on-line play. What this demonstrates, I believe, is that the people who have the disposable income to purchase these games will do so if the game is good enough. And there's a lot of anecdotal evidence to support this idea, particularly in the historical fact that CD sales were never so strong as when the original Napster was at its peak; file-sharing didn't hurt CD sales back then - as far as the stats are concerned, it clearly was helping them. When Napster was made illegal and went off-line and mp3 torrents suddenly became the tools of the Devil, CD sales began to fall off, precipitously...

Game quality in terms of the major titles, at least, has fallen off for the same reason that 90% of all Hollywood movies are absolute crap - when you need your investors to come up with $10-$20 Million to develop a title, you don't take risks, you don't try anything new, you don't go out on a limb. And these kind of financial risks push companies to design by committee, which is pretty much guaranteed to turn any cool idea into a runny pile of festering mediocrity...

[skaar]

Here's one for you:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213401

Go get 'im!


CastorTroy
U watch your F'KING mouth

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Currently playing Saints Row 2 on my modded xbox 360

And the games alright but the story is kind of extremely stupid. In the first saints row I had the feeling you were cleaning up the town for the better. In this one you're shooting innocent cops that are just doing there jobs... Kind of weird... Feel free to ask me anything about it, this was leaked online 2-weeks before its even in stores.

[cyberfluxor]

Piracy is bad mmmkay?

Most of those that kid themselves into believing there exists legitimate reasoning for pirating intellectual property either:
A) Have yet to or never will create marketable IP made accessible to the public and make their living off that income stream.
B) Have personally gained something based on others IP without approval by the owner.

If you seriously dislike how a company or individual is marketing, producing, or establishing their use clause then you have the right to either not purchase the product or become a competitor in that industry to prove their tactics/model wrong.

[monkeychemist]

Each one of these individual people(s) behind the title 'programmer', 'composer', '3d modeller', 'designer' is just like you and me, someone who needs to earn a living. Someone who might have a large family or medical bills that urgently need paying. Obviously, piracy will limit the earnings overall.

That is absolutely 100% untrue. The people in the positions you mentioned are either on salary or paid by the hour...so no loss in cash from piracy...it's just the CEO who is losing money.



I do think piracy has part to blame in the decline of decent games over the last ten years. Why put effort into a unique game that might be amazing if its not going to make any profit after the piracy costs have been taken into consideration.

And my final point is, if you continue to pirate, the only games that will appear on the market are these god damn awful Wii mini game packs that are rehashes of the last and games by budget release groups like Phoenix and Midas.

I disagree, though Jimid2 gave an awesome reply already. I'll just emphasize that it's not piracy that is casuing crappy games, but instead crappy games that are causing people to "try games out" or not want to shell out $50-60 for that crappy game.


Out of curiosity, for the games you "try before you buy", what happens when the game sucks? You download the game illegally, then delete it with no intention of ever purchasing it? Of course that shouldn't be counted as a lost sale, but that's kind of a dickish move on your part...

A dickish move? NO! If the company could just make a game worth buying this wouldn't happen. I think it's crappy of you to prefer people getting stuck paying their hard earned cash for a crappy game then a company losing a sale because they can't make a decent game


I completely disagree with this... [lots of good text here]


Very well said!


Here's one for you:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213401

Go get 'im!

Yes, go internet police! make the virtual world a better place!

[scooterb23]

That is absolutely 100% untrue. The people in the positions you mentioned are either on salary or paid by the hour...so no loss in cash from piracy...it's just the CEO who is losing money.

Then the company goes under because they aren't selling enough copies...putting all those people out of work. Thereby, being hurt by piracy.

[monkeychemist]

Then the company goes under because they aren't selling enough copies...putting all those people out of work. Thereby, being hurt by piracy.

so which company has gone under solely (or mostly) due to piracy? please show me an example...I think it's crappy games that kill them

[Porksta]

so which company has gone under solely (or mostly) due to piracy? please show me an example...I think it's crappy games that kill them

Looking Glass was hurt pretty severely by piracy.

[Diatribal Deity]

Just some randomly somewhat related thoughts on this exhaustive thread:

-I remember buying one of the versions of Space Quest as one of my first PC adventure games on floppy disk way back when. After getting the monstrous program (at the time) to run I was pretty well into it and I got to a point where I was roaming around the intergalactic mall and I attempted to leave through the entrance/exit (imagine that). The game proceeded to completely crash my computer. I returned the ($50) game to what at the time was a privately run chain called Software Etc... I straight up told them exactly what happened, that I was not comfortable owning the buggy product and they let me return it for cash. I later learned that leaving the mall was not part of the storyline, and had apparantly been overlooked by the testers.

-Fast forward to the other day when I was playing Unchartered on my PS3, proceeded to jump to a random ledge as you quite often are required to do and froze up the game. As I have matured, worked indirecty in the industry, and now understand that these things can be commonly missed in the beta stage, I have come to accept what some may consider incomplete/flawed products. I have thoroughly enjoyed the game regardless of some of it's quirks, and have no intention of returning it. I do however wonder what my experience would be if I tried to bring it back to the now publicly morphed behemoth of a chain that it was purchased at. After hearing me out would they think (a) I pirated it and would just like to return it; (b) I had either not liked the game or maybe finished it and not let me return it for a refund or (c) would they give me the same treatment as I had returning an easily pirated floppy disk game years ago?.

-I agree with PA about "creative destruction". If an industry cannot morph and adapt and keep ahead of the pirates to protect it's intellectual rights , then there could be justification that it should not exist at least in its current state.

-PA should be aware that while many understand his point of view he has essentially shined the bat signal brightly on himself. A more noble approach may have been to continue to educate instead of infuriate. I equate what you did to being an undercover agent in the middle of a sting telling the criminals they are all "so busted" because he/she is wired. Guess what though, the guns are still pointed at you and they now know who you are and where you live. I wish you had "maintained your cover" or at least been a little bit more discreet. But I have enjoyed the read none-the-less.

-By the way, I always thought Batman had been deputized and maybe just used excessive force.

[monkeychemist]

Looking Glass was hurt pretty severely by piracy.

The second sentence of the Wikipedia article:


Their games were regarded for demonstrating innovative gameplay, pioneering physics simulation, and well-written, engaging stories. However, many of their games, despite wide critical acclaim, sold poorly in comparison to contemporary rivals.

In summary, their games did not measure up with the competition...not piracy that led to their demise.

try again...

[scooterb23]

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/03/25/piracy-imagine-software-and-the-megagames/

http://hardwarezone.com.my/news/view.php?id=8802&cid=5

http://www.gamingsignal.com/2008/03/piracy_causes_iron_lore_shutdo.html

Of course, I'm sure you'll find some way to spin all this...that's why I'll bow out at this point. There is no point in trying to argue with a brick wall.

[ProgrammingAce]

Carmel wrote that a few players had illegally downloaded the game and then decided to make a purchase, but added that those buyers formed a "very small percentage."

Oh, well i guess that means the game isn't very good then.


2D Boy won the 2008 Independent Games Festival for World of Goo.

Nevermind, i guess that just means pirates suck and don't buy good games after pirating them.

[Gameguy]

While most stores refuse to take back a "return" for open software, they have to take back a defective product in most states. It may take some convincing, but usually if you tell the manager you're willing to return every copy they have in inventory, they'll usually give you a refund. Or throw you out of the building... but then you have grounds for a lawsuit.
This doesn't really help convince people to stop pirating, that they'd have to start a lawsuit to get justice. Who really has the time to do that, and lawyers are costly too. Most likely the stores will take it back so there won't be a need for a lawsuit, I'm just saying people don't like hearing about the possibility of getting screwed by a store.

I actually bought and returned a game(successfully) because it had serious glitches in it. It was Broken Sword for the Gameboy Advance, a port of the PC game that was released years earlier. If you save the game while at certain locations, you'll be unable to proceed in the game, you'll have to delete the save and start over(I had to start over as I didn't know about the bugs ahead of time). There were several spots in the game that had this problem(and there's other serious bugs too), and since this was a port(not made from scratch), I felt that it wasn't up to par. I brought it back and exchanged it for another game(I said it was defective, I bought it used from EB Games).



Oh, well i guess that means the game isn't very good then.

Nevermind, i guess that just means pirates suck and don't buy good games after pirating them.
I actually went to 2D Boy's website and they talk more about the pirating, pretty interesting to read the details of what they say. :)
http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/


this is in line with a previous estimate by russell carroll (director of marketing at reflexive) for the game ricochet infinity. russell estimated a 92% piracy rate and i found his analysis quite interesting (check it out here if you’re curious). one thing that really jumped out at me was his estimate that preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren’t people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying.

in our case, we might have even converted more than 1 in a 1000 pirates into legit purchases. either way, ricochet shipped with DRM, world of goo shipped without it, and there seems to be no difference in the outcomes. we can’t draw any conclusions based on two data points, but i’m hoping that others will release information about piracy rates so that everyone could see if DRM is the waste of time and money that we think it is.


And here's an article with suggestions to prevent piracy. I feel that these methods could work well.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558

[ProgrammingAce]

And here's an article with suggestions to prevent piracy. I feel that these methods could work well.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558

None of those ideas are new, unique, or even particularly useful.

1. Make sure the pirates can’t offer a superior product.

I'm anti PC gaming, and aside from some downlaodable content, DRM isn't too bad on consoles. As for PCs, If someone is pirating your game because they don't want to type in the CD Key, then there's no hope in converting them into a customer anyway. I'd be surprised if installing the game isn't too much work for them at that point.

2. Get closer to the community

That works the other way too. Bungie is probably the most community driven developer out there, and the halo series is pirated to high hell specifically because of the expectations the developers put on the game. CliffyB, Jade Redmond, CharlieOscarDelta, their games all get heavily pirated, even though they're active members of the community, and often times active in charities such as Child's Play.

3. Offer a demo

If you have the time and resources, then great. I'd love for all games to have demos. Sometimes a demo does more harm then good, look at Burnout Paradise city. The demo offered too little content and actually hurt the sales. Now that's the developer's fault, but sometimes it's just easier to sidestep the issue entirely and skip demo if you're hard up against a deadline.

4. Entice them with valuable updates

This one is just plain wrong. Go to any CD crack website and they'll have a crack for every patch out there. Worthwhile content updates can be fairly expensive as well. It'd be nice if all developers gave stuff away for free to their paying customers, but frankly the pirates will usually end up with the freebies too. Without any DRM at all, it tends to be difficult to tell a paying customer from a pirate.

5. Clean House

That's nice, but in reality it's insanely difficult. A game has to pass through so many different levels across multiple companies before it can even be certified for release. Then they send out copies to reviewers. A good percentage of leaks come from crooked reviewers, others come from the distributor, or the packaging company. Rarely have i seen leaks that came from a source internal to the developer. The only real option i see here is to convert the review and distribution into a download only medium, then load it up with DRM. But, as has been brought up before, no DRM is secure so you're still going to have leaks.

[Volcanon]

While most stores refuse to take back a "return" for open software, they have to take back a defective product in most states. It may take some convincing, but usually if you tell the manager you're willing to return every copy they have in inventory, they'll usually give you a refund. Or throw you out of the building... but then you have grounds for a lawsuit.

Stores violating your consumer protection rights really have nothing to do with the game publishers.

Out of curiosity, for the games you "try before you buy", what happens when the game sucks? You download the game illegally, then delete it with no intention of ever purchasing it? Of course that shouldn't be counted as a lost sale, but that's kind of a dickish move on your part...

Stores that violate my consumer protection rights have everything to do with game publishers. The store is the human who is GIVING me your product, so they should go out of their way to not make me enraged as I still am after four years.

I pay for games that are good, or if a friend has said they are good - I bought Hearts of Iron II via direct download last month. Never again am I buying a game near it's release, though, and definitely not from a retail store. I might make an exception for Starcraft II, as Blizzard has a reputation for not releasing early betas as a 1.0 release (which is why I am giving them my money for full price instead of waiting until it's a bargain bin game for $15 like I usually do).

If I DL a game and it's shitty, I delete it. Mind that I haven't Dl'd a game in the last long while because of having bought a PS2 and am basking in the glory of $5 games. Why would I pay retail, or anything at all for a steaming pile of crap?

I think some companies are using piracy as a scapegoat for low sales figures on shitty games.

[gepeto]

Well the demo of drake of the 99 dragons helped me. Helped me to run the other way by the same token some companies release broken titles with an emphasis on the we will fix it via patch. Last year I have bought a ton of games based off likeing them in the demo regardless of the review.

[esquire]

Stores violating your consumer protection rights really have nothing to do with the game publishers.

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the game publishers. The most likely reason why retailers are not taking returns on the alleged defective products is that they in turn cannot return them to the publisher for refund due to the publisher's return policy and other reasons such as the publisher asserting the DMCA.

[esquire]

I do think piracy has part to blame in the decline of decent games over the last ten years. Why put effort into a unique game that might be amazing if its not going to make any profit after the piracy costs have been taken into consideration.

You could cut and paste that argument into any time frame in question. I don't see how it's any more relevant now than any other time in question without any evidence backing up your assertion.

Also, it's based upon the (false) premise that there was been a decline of decent games over the last ten years. I know this is largely subjective, but I would imagine if that were the case, we see an overall drop in total number of games released in that time period, and I don't see that. If anything the games are getting better, especially in PC games. Blizzard is still around releasing A+ games. Valve is still hitting home runs. Don't forget Relic, Raven, DICE, BioWare, Obsidian, Infinity Ward, Epic Games, id Software, Monolith, Bethesda, EA LA (Westwood), Ubisoft Montreal and now Bungie may be back into PC gaming. We continue to see new versions of Total War, Civilization, Command & Conquer, Call of Duty, etc. every year or so. We seen many new titles rise up (Company of Heroes, Sins of a Solar Empire, WarHammer 40K, Crysis,Titan Quest) and many old lines reappear (Supreme Commander, Sam & Max, Team Fortress 2, Colonization).

[monkeychemist]

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/03/25/piracy-imagine-software-and-the-megagames/

http://hardwarezone.com.my/news/view.php?id=8802&cid=5

http://www.gamingsignal.com/2008/03/piracy_causes_iron_lore_shutdo.html

Of course, I'm sure you'll find some way to spin all this...that's why I'll bow out at this point. There is no point in trying to argue with a brick wall.

Call me names if you want but your 3rd link makes a very important point:


Of course, it's hard to know what the true revenue loss is because you can't assume – by a long shot – that everyone who pirates a copy of a product would pay for it if they had no other choice.

Companies go bankrupt all the time, especially of recent days. It's due to poor management, inferior products, prices, a bad economy and tough competition against the big companies. It's easy to blame piracy without evidence. It's like in the 1700s when they called women witches. If enough people do it, then it becomes common belief instead of being proven rationally. Funny how the companies making good games like blizzard, square-enix, and nintendo are not going bankrupt due to piracy.

I love the idea of demos! I bought a PS3 a while back and I always download new demos.If I like a game, then 6 months down the road, when the price becomes reasonable, I buy it new. I think it has been a good compromise from Sony and it's game developers that has kept me on the good side of the law. That way I don't waste money on crap and I buy their products new.

[ProgrammingAce]

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the game publishers. The most likely reason why retailers are not taking returns on the alleged defective products is that they in turn cannot return them to the publisher for refund due to the publisher's return policy and other reasons such as the publisher asserting the DMCA.

How is the digital millennium copyright act the most likely reason stores don't accept returns on open software?

Publishers accept returns all the time, there's no shortage of games returned to the distributor. If the store wanted to return merchandise, they would have no trouble doing so. If you have poor customer service from a store, don't blame the game publishers.

Personally, i've never had trouble returning a defective game for a refund so i have no idea what you're talking about. If you're going to bring the DMCA into this, i'd at least expect you to have proof.

[cyberfluxor]

Companies go bankrupt all the time, especially of recent days. It's due to poor management, inferior products, prices, a bad economy and tough competition against the big companies. It's easy to blame piracy without evidence. It's like in the 1700s when they called women witches. If enough people do it, then it becomes common belief instead of being proven rationally. Funny how the companies making good games like blizzard, square-enix, and nintendo are not going bankrupt due to piracy.
How many break the law just to turn themselves in with a tape documenting what they did?

I've known people who download a PC game, run some cracks, then play through until they beat the game and remove. It's a real shame but there are many others out there, otherwise ISO/BIN sites and newsgroups wouldn't receive enough revenue to stay afloat. This is why they love torrents, drop bandwidth costs and raise revenue on hits.

For the record I've gone out and purchased some games multiple times just to have those extra CD keys for online and network play. A buddy of mine has 5 registration keys for both Diablo 2 and the expansion purchased years ago and shared between himself and his wife.

[Poofta!]

i know i got to this party late, but i read the entire other thread, and i have this to say:

you are a douche. even if you believe you are the white knight of Microsoft, you shouldnt have posted in the thread saying you reported him, that proves you did it either entirely, or mostly, just to spite/screw over a complete stranger, who wanted to have an interesting conversation on a website devoted to OUR hobby. you are a piece of shit of a human being and i truly hope this will some how come back around for you, then again, with your attitude, im sure you will lose out on a lot of things in life.

i always had a lot of respect for you due to your knowledge and helpful replies. this is now changed.

[ProgrammingAce]

i know i got to this party late, but i read the entire other thread, and i have this to say:

you are a douche. even if you believe you are the white knight of Microsoft, you shouldnt have posted in the thread saying you reported him, that proves you did it either entirely, or mostly, just to spite/screw over a complete stranger, who wanted to have an interesting conversation on a website devoted to OUR hobby. you are a piece of shit of a human being and i truly hope this will some how come back around for you, then again, with your attitude, im sure you will lose out on a lot of things in life.

i always had a lot of respect for you due to your knowledge and helpful replies. this is now changed.

You know what? You're absolutely right. I do enjoy calling people out for piracy. If you'd like to make sure it turns around on me, tell ya what...

I'm in the middle of setting up a display tracing development hardware all the way back to the Atari 2600. I'll be at MGC, if you want to inflict some sort of karma, that'd be the time to do it. I plan on bringing about $50,000 in dev and prototype hardware to the show.

If you want to make sure i get my "just reward", why don't you show up and make sure a couple of the consoles "accidently" get knocked off the table or something. That'll show me who's a real man.

It's easy to sit back and pirate the things i make, but let's see if anyone has the guts to to do it in person.

So people ask that industry insiders make themselves available to the community, which is something i've tried to do for years. But when people start openly discussing piracy, and i call them on it, i get called "scum", "douche" and "a piece of shit of a human being". You ask us to be members of the community, but demand we be silent when it comes to piracy.

I've been civil and i've been honest, and this is what i get in return. I will freely admit that DRM sucks, it's a horrible idea and has no benefit for anybody. But, of course, i'm the enemy. I've always tried to educate and inform people about what's going on in the industry, and that's not going to change.

[skaar]

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p344-Kauai-Gillins_Beach.jpg

Looks nice there, doesn't it.

[JSoup]

It's easy to sit back and pirate the things i make, but let's see if anyone has the guts to to do it in person.

I'd be much easier (and cheaper) to just wait until your shit gets released publicly. A week later, I can download the emulator and ROM set.

Isn't the internet a great place?

[ProgrammingAce]

I'd be much easier (and cheaper) to just wait until your shit gets released publicly. A week later, I can download the emulator and ROM set.

Isn't the internet a great place?

Come now, you'll have to do better then that to get a rise out of me.

Besides, let me know how that Xbox 360 emulator is working out for you... (???)

[JSoup]

Come now, you'll have to do better then that to get a rise out of me.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. It's called 'poking fun'.



Besides, let me know how that Xbox 360 emulator is working out for you... (???)


Perfectly well, thanks for asking.

[Gameguy]

None of those ideas are new, unique, or even particularly useful.
It's good to know they're already on the right track then. What they're doing now is working great with reducing piracy, right?

I notice that you didn't respond to the quote I posted from 2D Boy. They claimed a 90% piracy rate(later reduced to 82%), yet they still oppose DRM(claiming that it really didn't make a difference) and claim that the people who pirated their game wouldn't have bought their software anyway. They're a developer experiencing piracy first hand, their opinion on the issue should definitely count too.


I plan on bringing about $50,000 in dev and prototype hardware to the show.
That's a main reason why people think piracy is ok, they assume that the developers and programmers are well off so they don't need a few more dollars. Most people who pirate are much poorer than the people they pirate from. It's like Microsoft starting a campain saying "By pirating you're taking money directly out of Bill Gates pockets". He's the richest man in the world, not many people will feel obligated to give him extra cash.


http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/03/25/piracy-imagine-software-and-the-megagames/

http://hardwarezone.com.my/news/view.php?id=8802&cid=5

http://www.gamingsignal.com/2008/03/piracy_causes_iron_lore_shutdo.html

Of course, I'm sure you'll find some way to spin all this...that's why I'll bow out at this point. There is no point in trying to argue with a brick wall.
The second link you posted is interesting, the company went under in 1984. That was during the big video game crash wasn't it? The crash that almost killed video games, only being revived soon after by the NES.

Plus here's a quote;

Our next tactic was to reduce our prices. To become cheap enough that customers wouldn’t want to copy because they could have the real thing at a low price. This tactic would have worked and eventually did with budget software pretty much taking over the 8 bit cassette game market. However we were ahead of our time and the retailers and trade threw a complete and utter fit at our price reduction. Mostly they said they wouldn’t buy our games off us anymore at the lower pricepoint. We were forced to keep prices up.
Sounds like the retailers being greedy was a major part of why they failed.

[ScourDX]

Piracy is a big issue around the world. In Asia, majority of gamers don't buy console games. They only buy PC or Handheld because the games are cheaper and you can pirate them easily. I was in Malaysia and Singapore in Dec and I was amazed how much the game cost. PS3, Xbox360, PS2 games cost about $65-90 USD per game while DS/PSP games can range between $50-75 USD. Imagine trying to work at their salary and buy a game. Most people there don't make $50 USD per day. It takes them 1-2 months before they can earn enough to buy a game. This is why majority of Asians resort to piracy.

I believe there are a lot of untapped potential gamers in Asia. It is just that N. American developers always ignore them. I feel pity knowing our market price drive their gaming price up the roof.

[ProgrammingAce]

I notice that you didn't respond to the quote I posted from 2D Boy. They claimed a 90% piracy rate(later reduced to 82%), yet they still oppose DRM(claiming that it really didn't make a difference) and claim that the people who pirated their game wouldn't have bought their software anyway. They're a developer experiencing piracy first hand, their opinion on the issue should definitely count too.

I didn't comment because i agree completely. I've already said that PC gaming needs to eliminate DRM, and that consoles need to loosen it.



That's a main reason why people think piracy is ok, they assume that the developers and programmers are well off so they don't need a few more dollars. Most people who pirate are much poorer than the people they pirate from. It's like Microsoft starting a campain saying "By pirating you're taking money directly out of Bill Gates pockets". He's the richest man in the world, not many people will feel obligated to give him extra cash.

Lovely, but i've been in this industry since 2003 and until last year i was only making $25,000 a year. I'm still making significantly less then $50,000. Sure, i could go somewhere else and make more money, but i honestly enjoy my job. Not everyone makes $100,000 a year in this industry.

If you factor in all the people who make a video game happen, from the packaging plant, to the marketing people, to the game testers, i've seen figures saying the average salary in the industry is around $30,000.

For those of you who liked psychonauts, when microsoft dropped double fine, some of the employees went weeks without a paycheck.

[monkeychemist]

The second link you posted is interesting, the company went under in 1984. That was during the big video game crash wasn't it? The crash that almost killed video games, only being revived soon after by the NES.

It looks to me like he got pissed at what I wrote earlier, did a google search and posted the top 4 links without even reading them...a couple were ambiguous at best...but wait i'm a brick wall, so it's useless to argue with me :)

[kedawa]

How can anyone be 'anti-pc gaming'?
What the hell is wrong with playing games on my computer?
It's especially retarded to be opposed to it given the fact that it's the only viable open platform we have left. The last thing I want to see is an industry that offers nothing but closed, proprietary, dead end platforms regulated by first-party hardware vendors who control content and pricing.

[Richter Belmount]

Game companies are going to be Anti PC Gaming thats who , its simply easier to pirate on PC then it is to pirate on a Video Game Console. The customer satisfaction is higher on gaming consoles and companies are taking advantage of that said controlled environment. Sure it blows not have your hacks and modifications in the controlled console enviroment ,but that stuff just pisses off the casuals and people who play for competition and recreation. To hack a console requires more work , you have to modify and pay for the service and they hope don't get banned.

Some gamers get turned off by the hacker community that they don't even bother playing some games online on PC. Another thing , doesn't it seem that the PC gaming selections have dwindled in the nationwide major game retailers? I know most don't even carry a PC section anymore.Not to mention Circuit City just closed and all we got is Best Buy where Pc games are available at a national chain.

Plus Microsoft killing off Ensemble Studios and the large amount of PC developers going to Xbox 360 and even PS3.

[kedawa]

There are no shortage of hackers on XBL.

[monkeychemist]

PC gaming doesnt make sense to me. Let's compare them with the most expensive console:

PC:

Price = $800-1200
-needs to be replaced or upgraded every 1-2 years to keep up with gaming
-graphics and refresh rate will be better (but really, is it that much better?)
-DRM
-very little exclusive titles not already available on X360 (if any)

PS3

Price = $400-600
-technically should be good for a 10-year run (maybe not so long but at least more than 2 years
-graphics are pretty damn good
-So far, unpiratable
-not many, but at least some exclusive titles

I guess PC gamers have a LOT of disposable income.

[kedawa]

That's a bit of a flawed comparison. Every console has DRM in some form or other, and the total cost of the PC is misleading.

Most gamers already have their own PC to begin with, so the only expense involved with PC gaming is the addition of a gaming quality CPU and video card, which are cheaper than ever. I can get a decent CPU and graphics card that can outperform any console for about $250.

The total cost of pc gaming is not really much more than consoles when you consider the savings from not having to replace every single controller every generation like you would with consoles, and the money you will never have to spend on DLC, microtransactons, and service fees.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing wrong with the PC is ease of use, which isn't much of an issue for me, but I can see how it would be for others.

I really like having a game machine that is user-serviceable, compatible with any controller I feel like using, capable of outputting video at any resolution I could ever need, open to all forms of homebrew and user created content, and is completely modular and customizable.

I might have to upgrade my system if I want to play the latest games at full detail, but most PC games have very modest system requirements these days. There are a hell of a lot more games coming out today that will play on a four year old PC than there are for any four year old console.

PC gaming is just a different animal altogether. If you prefer the simplicity and uniformity of consoles over the flexibility and power of a PC, that's fine. Just understand that there are plenty of people who don't.