SquareEnix kills Chrono Trigger Fangame at 98% completion

[kaedesdisciple]

http://www.chronocompendium.com/

Sorry, Chrono Trigger fans. Here's to hoping that SquareEnix is actually doing something with their IP.

[Clownzilla]

http://www.chronocompendium.com/

Sorry, Chrono Trigger fans. Here's to hoping that SquareEnix is actually doing something with their IP.

It's always puzzled me on the strictness entertainment (movies, music, games, etc,)companies impose on IP property. Square has every legal right to bring up this lawsuit threat but what is the REAL long term cost to them? Just because it's not legal does not imply that it's bad for Square. I will absolutely side with Square if it's a bootleg operation using the IP to make $$$ but this is just a free fan game. If anything, it will bring more fans into the series. I would like to see the boardroom meetings that comes up with decisions like this.

Example:

CEO: What is the news for today.

Manager: Somebody is making a fan game with our IP.

CEO: Fan game or not it's OUR IP and it will stay that way......END OF DISCUSSION!

[kaedesdisciple]

There are a few thought patterns going on here.

One is that if these people actually put out a good game, will fans move toward it and possibly ignore other products that SE has on the market right now? You can't stop another competitor from putting out an original RPG and possibly drawing away fans, but if you can just send a letter and stop someone from using your own IP to do so, even if it is free, then why not? Hey, if that person gets really good feedback, tons of downloads and people offering to pay money for him to make more games, then SE just gave a blessing for a new potential competitor to rise.

The other is that some people might get confused and think that it's an actual SE product. If the product is no good, then that could reflect badly on SE as people still associate the IP with SE. If SE does decide to put out another Chrono game, then it will have the black mark of a game that they didn't even create.

Either way, I think the C&D should have come SO much sooner than this. Receiving a letter like that when you're less than a month away from completion must have been heartbreaking. The actions almost say that it's not enough for SE to stop the action, but that SE intended to utterly crush the spirits of anyone involved with the project.

[kupomogli]

I think they should leak the 98% complete game onto the internet as an unknown person who was beta testing it. That way fans will be allowed to play the title while Square-Enix won't be able to do anything.

[kaedesdisciple]

I think they should leak the 98% complete game onto the internet as an unknown person who was beta testing it. That way fans will be allowed to play the title while Square-Enix won't be able to do anything.

I think SE took care of that with the C&D letter. No matter which way the game leaks out, if it does, the owner is getting slapped with a minimum $150,000 lawsuit. Of course, IANAL, but I think SE would unfortunately win in that case.

[Rickstilwell1]

And if they have already gotten that far, they could just replace the Chrono characters' sprites with their own characters and names. They don't have to cancel the whole thing.

If it was designed to be good then it should be ok without Chrono and the other popular characters in it.

[Berserker]

And if they have already gotten that far, they could just replace the Chrono characters' sprites with their own characters and names. They don't have to cancel the whole thing.

If it was designed to be good then it should be ok without Chrono and the other popular characters in it.

That's actually a really good idea.

Square-Enix could still hit them with a lawsuit if they were feeling particularly over-zealous, as these big companies sometimes do, saying that it was originally based off of their intellectual property, or that it bears too much of a resemblance to their intellectual property etc. But at least then they (the fan-team) would have an actual case to argue, and probably win, provided that they weren't too careless, i.e. not doing much more than turning Chrono's hair from red to orange and changing his name to "Krono" or something like that.

[Clownzilla]

If the game is good enough why wouldn't Square consider buying it from the creator, polish it a bit, and release it for the DS or PSP? It won't happen but Square (and other companies in the same position) will miss out on some well developed games. How much love do you think was put into this game as opposed to a programming slave at Square with 5 other jobs on his schedule. Hmmm....

[Kitsune Sniper]

And if they have already gotten that far, they could just replace the Chrono characters' sprites with their own characters and names. They don't have to cancel the whole thing.

If it was designed to be good then it should be ok without Chrono and the other popular characters in it.

It would still require a Chrono Trigger ROM to work, so it's still IP infringement.

I don't like it, in fact I think it's fucking bullshit by Squeenix, but it's their property and it's their right to defend it. Even if they're fucking twats about it.

[Diosoth]

Fuck copyrights. that's all I have to say.

Fuck Square, too. They abandon things such as Virtual Console in favor of overpriced "ports" with little new content to justify the costs. Oh sure, FFVII got on PSN... in Japan. Don't think the USA will get that. We'll have to wait for the overpriced, barely-enhanced PSP or PS3 port. This also isn't the only thing they send C&Ds over- they shut down companies maning Cloud Strife swords. WHY?

It's their property, fine. But if they don't want the FANS doing something, then maybe they should do it themselves! Oh, right, they did... they put Chrono Trigger on the DS with a quickie extra dungeon tossed in, a new translation which doesn't enhance anything, and charged a fortune for an old game. And god forbig anyone ever badmouth a Japanese company for being outright lazy.

Id software encourages fan stuff. Running With Scissors and Valve do, too.

Epic Games, however, are also a bunch of motherfucking dicks. They send a C&D letter to a guy who made a CUSTOM TOY of a GeOW character. Seriously, Mike Capps, go fuck yourself.

Square was screaming "piracy hurt sales" 2 days BEFORE Chrono Trigger DS was released in the USA. A company that does that deserves to have their games pirated. Yes, I pirated CTDS, and I did so gladly. I will never buy a copy. Seriously, fuck you Square, I just admitted to STEALING from you. What are you going to do about it?

Nintendo certainly didn't shut down the Mother 3 fan translation. Which they could have, but as they have ZIPPO intention of releasing the game in the US, what would be the point? Well, aside from totally denying the US players the chance to play the game.

I'd like to see a group that gets these C&D letters ignore it. Time to test if big bad gredy Square has the balls to actually take it to court.

You can whine about how businesses only care about profit and not the fans all you want, but if they want the fans to like them, they can show some fuckign respect. If they spit on their own customers then they deserve to go out of business.

[roushimsx]

All I have to say is: "ha ha!"

Seriously, everyone's seen how hardcore SquareEnix is with protecting the Chrono Trigger copyright when they C&D'd the fuck out of the 3d remake of Chrono Trigger, what made these guys think that they were so special that they'd get a free pass?

If they were smart, they wouldn't have announced a damn thing until it was done. Instead, they just wasted a few years of their life on a project they'll never be able to finish. Good job!

[Daria]

I've been following this for the past few days. While the news doesn't really affect me, not that big on Chrono Trigger, it just validates my dislike for Square in general. It's a dick move and a big fuck-you to obviously hard-core fans of the series.

[Tupin]

I just find it funny that Square-Enix does this to a fan game, but Nintendo couldn't care less about the MOTHER 3 translation.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

they had no choice, other than bringing the dev team in-house and make their work legal. barring that, square has to defend infringement of their copyrights or risk losing claim to the copyright in court.

don't blame square, blame copyright law if you don't like it.

personally, doesn't bother me.

[obesolete]

wow,

I haven't heard of this fan game, but I agree, why would they wait until the game was 98% complete before putting a stop to it? I used to be a big square fan in the nes/snes days, but not anymore.
I was not impressed with the ff7 phenominon nor anything after it the company produced.

When I saw that they had re-released Chrono Trigger it was obvious that they were looking for a cash grab. I paid my $80 for the snes cart when it first came out and it still works fine.

maybe I'm just old and crusty?

[Zing]

The stupid thing about trademarks and such, is that if the company doesn't actively "protect" its IP, then it can harm them in a future case where the infringement actually does hurt the company.

[udisi]

SE kinda had to do this too. If they let it go, it would set precedent for other pirates to argue if they pirated other SE works. They're really convering all their IP not just Chronotrigger.

[FantasiaWHT]

Copyright law is so messed up right now. The WHOLE POINT of copyright law is to protect and encourage creativity and innovation. But the "don't zealously guard your IP with a chastity belt and you lose it" rule and how hard it is to make derivative works (see sample music) without infringing actually stifle both of those things.

[kupomogli]

SE kinda had to do this too. If they let it go, it would set precedent for other pirates to argue if they pirated other SE works. They're really convering all their IP not just Chronotrigger.

There are other Chrono Trigger hacks still out there. One that adds a Coliseum to Chrono Trigger itself. Another that starts after the battle with Magus showing what happens to Magus after that point. Crimson Echoes is made by the one who made the Magus one.

How many Final Fantasy hacks are there?

It's not really that they even bother with most hacks. It's the ones that cover everything they're doing Square ends up sending the cease and desist letters to.

Chrono Trigger Resurrection made CT look anything but bad with how much effort they were regularly putting into the remake. Now, yes it wasn't a full remake, but it was specific parts in the game that you could go through and view those parts in 3d. The game was almost completed when Square sent the cease and desist letter. I personally think Square thinking this project would make the company look like some sortof joke, what with these people doing this for free and Square doing nothing for the series. Same thing with the most recent CT fan game, where as Square rereleases CT with hardly anything added to it, and fans getting no pay whatsoever putting alot of effort into developing a fan made game. How bad would that make Square look?

It's really a lose lose situation for Square with the cease and desist letter as their only option, but if these people wanted to get away with it, they wouldn't have sent Square a personal invitation of introduction showing every detail of the game. If they waited until the release, then what would Square really have been able to do?

*edit*

I think the creator should just comply with "fuck you Square" and take the 150,000 fine. If every Chrono Trigger fan paid a dollar towards that fine, then well over 150,000 could be paid. Fans wouldn't be paying for the game, they'd be paying the fine.

[skaar]

It sucks, but unless you're defending your copyrights you can lose claim to them - the devs would have been better of developing this in secret or behind closed doors rather than putting it out there before release. At least people would have gotten to play it. Now they're too much of a target for SE.

[roushimsx]

I think the creator should just comply with "fuck you Square" and take the 150,000 fine. If every Chrono Trigger fan paid a dollar towards that fine, then well over 150,000 could be paid. Fans wouldn't be paying for the game, they'd be paying the fine.
I'd like to live in the fantasy world that you live in. Chrono Trigger fans wouldn't kick in $5, let alone $1 to help the guy out.

[Lil_John]

Yeeeeeaaaaaah!

[kainemaxwell]

This is extremely disheartening.

[Sonicwolf]

Funny how a company sits on a license then legally attacks the hell out of someone when a fan game is made...

Why dont you dimwits actually make a new Chrono Game then? derp de derp.

[TonyTheTiger]

As somebody who works on his own intellectual property (and has studied copyright) I fully understand Square's position. There's a quality control issue as well as a market saturation issue.


There are a few thought patterns going on here.

One is that if these people actually put out a good game, will fans move toward it and possibly ignore other products that SE has on the market right now? You can't stop another competitor from putting out an original RPG and possibly drawing away fans, but if you can just send a letter and stop someone from using your own IP to do so, even if it is free, then why not? Hey, if that person gets really good feedback, tons of downloads and people offering to pay money for him to make more games, then SE just gave a blessing for a new potential competitor to rise.

The other is that some people might get confused and think that it's an actual SE product. If the product is no good, then that could reflect badly on SE as people still associate the IP with SE. If SE does decide to put out another Chrono game, then it will have the black mark of a game that they didn't even create.

Either way, I think the C&D should have come SO much sooner than this. Receiving a letter like that when you're less than a month away from completion must have been heartbreaking. The actions almost say that it's not enough for SE to stop the action, but that SE intended to utterly crush the spirits of anyone involved with the project.

This.

I do think that waiting this long sounds fishy but that's assuming Square knew about the project. And even if they did wait on purpose, I think what they're doing (and it makes sense from a resource management and PR angle) is letting people have their fun but once it appears that a real release of something legit looking is imminent they bring the axe down. If they went after every single thing the second it got started they'd seriously waste lots of resources fighting against bullshit little things and also pushing away a hell of a lot of people.

[Leo_A]

It would still require a Chrono Trigger ROM to work, so it's still IP infringement.

I don't like it, in fact I think it's fucking bullshit by Squeenix, but it's their property and it's their right to defend it. Even if they're fucking twats about it.


Forgive me if I missed someone else saying this, but just make it be a patch for the Chrono Trigger rom. No ip infringement then if the end user is the one combining it with Chrono Trigger and it just happens to work...

[Jorpho]

Forgive me if I missed someone else saying this, but just make it be a patch for the Chrono Trigger rom. No ip infringement then if the end user is the one combining it with Chrono Trigger and it just happens to work...The thing is, the developers put a rather explicit clause in their readme stating "Hey, this is illegal!" Never seen the likes of it before, and can't imagine why they needed to do that.

[kedawa]

So what's stopping the people involved from just finishing it and quietly releasing it?
I just don't see how Squeenix could do anything about it.

The same is true for any similar fan project.
They just need to be careful about what they publish on the web.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Forgive me if I missed someone else saying this, but just make it be a patch for the Chrono Trigger rom. No ip infringement then if the end user is the one combining it with Chrono Trigger and it just happens to work...

It's still illegal. Like someone releasing a crack for a valuable piece of software. The crack on its own is useless, and doesn't do any damage until it's actually used -- but it doesn't make it any less illegal.


So what's stopping the people involved from just finishing it and quietly releasing it?
I just don't see how Squeenix could do anything about it.

They can backtrack the owner of the site by going after the host, and get the guy's billing info that way. And work their way up from there.

It's not as simple as "ZOMG RELEASE IT NOW".

[Leo_A]

As far as I know, it wouldn't be enabling piracy, what exactly about it would be illegal if theres no IP protected work in the file? It would be no different then than someone creating a map for a online fps or a track for a PC NASCAR game, which the last I heard weren't illegal to distribute or create even when the developers didn't encourage it and the community had to figure out how to do it.

Others have done similar things to get around IP infringement, such as with the Star Fox 2 patch to translate, correct bugs, and hide the debug menu. Only the end user is committing piracy by downloading or having the rom to the game.

[Kitsune Sniper]

The difference between that is that those games usually WANT people to create their own content by using the game's materials and can even provide tools to do so.

You can't compare a legal mod, supported by a game's creators, to a romhack, which is illegal from the start. You're modifying the game's code, not adding to it without altering the original game (like said maps and levels).

[NayusDante]

I'd like to live in the fantasy world that you live in. Chrono Trigger fans wouldn't kick in $5, let alone $1 to help the guy out.

I would be glad to donate $5 if such a fine were actually imposed.

Chrono Trigger is one of those wonderful exceptions to the need for an illegal rom. Anybody got the FF Chronicles release? Try booting "ROM.BIN" in an SNES emulator. You legally own that rom, without the need to download it illegally. It also opens perfectly fine in Temporal Flux, the most comprehensive CT rom editor that I know.

If there's any rom that can be hacked legally, it's CT.


However, there IS validity in SE's claim. The hack would include references to the Chrono Trigger story, characters, etc. Technically, it's just like fan fiction, but both make use of content that the author does not own the rights to.

If you were to make an ORIGINAL game out of CT, I'm not sure if SE would have a claim. The patch file you distribute would only contain information related to changes in the file, which would all be original content that you have ownership of. Making a legal claim on that would be akin to Nintendo suing a paint company because I spraypainted my NES.

[Leo_A]

As I tried to make clear with my post, even games where this isn't supported by the developers and there are no resources provided to figure out how to do it, such as creating new tracks for Papyrus' series of PC racing titles, aren't illegal or haven't been acted upon.

You've yet to state how a patch that alters the game code, as long as there's no infringing use of IP protected material in the patch, would be illegal to release. What law would that fall under? The developers aren't doing any IP infringing. From my experience, things are legal if they take the forms of a patch and they're not distributing a patched rom (The PC racing simulation community has had legal issues when a exe is modified to do something like simulate a different racing series and then distributed, but when its just a patch that the end user must run that modifies their exe on their own hd, its been fine).

I suspect a similar parallel can be drawn to the emulation community, and is probably why others have done similar things with translation patches and such for many rpg's for one example.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Looks like I'm not going to convince you regardless of what I say. I will say this, though:

I've been romhacking for more than seven years. I've released patches for several games. And the moment a company tells me to stop, I will, because I know full well that what I do is blatantly illegal. I have no legal grounds to stand on. If a company doesn't want me to do this, then I'll stop.

The fact that I'm only releasing a patch doesn't matter. It's just like a crack comes out to make a demo version of a game into the full one -- it's ILLEGAL because it will modify the game code, because that is its only purpose.

This isn't about fighting THE MAN. So stop complaining about the game not being released. It's a shame, yes, but unless the team wants to end up in court or in jail, what's the alternative?

[Leo_A]

That's illegal because its enabling piracy and there's no other usefulness of it. I'm not sure you can draw a parallel between that and a patch for a rom.

[Kitsune Sniper]

It's still an unauthorized game modification. What part of "unauthorized" is so difficult to understand?

Squeenix owns the game, Squeenix doesn't want anyone to fuck with their property, Squeenix throws lawsuits around to ensure this doesn't happen. This isn't about the patch being useful, it's still illegal.

[Leo_A]

We'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not sure there's a law that prevents unauthorized modifications to a videogame. I've seen no evidence of such a thing unless it enabled piracy. I've only seen evidence that supports my position, such as the Game Genie lawsuit Nintendo brought against the company producing them in the early 90s.

[Jorpho]

As I said above, even if by some reading of the law such a patch might not be illegal, the authors said in their own readme, "This is illegal and we'll have to stop if someone tells us to," or words to that effect. Like I said, a bit odd.

[Griking]

We'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not sure there's a law that prevents unauthorized modifications to a videogame.


Pretty much every End User License Agreement that comes with every piece of software (except open source stuff) makes it clear that you can't make modifications to the software. It's pretty much a standard condition to using any piece of software.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Pretty much every End User License Agreement that comes with every piece of software (except open source stuff) makes it clear that you can't make modifications to the software. It's pretty much a standard condition to using any piece of software.

I'm pretty sure he'll say it's not "law", therefore it's not enforceable with fines or jailtime, even though it is.

[TonyTheTiger]

EULAs and stuff have not had extensive testing in the courts. We really don't know how far they can go. One day the courts might say "yeah, everything written in an EULA is perfectly enforceable" or they might say "it's enforceable but only to a point."

As for patches to existing games, that's a toughie. I can't find any cases (during my 5 minutes worth of searching just now) that address this. But there are cases that might have some relevance.

The motion picture industry sued Sony years back because of VHS and Betamax. Their argument was that Sony's manufacturing of recording devices allowed the end user to infringe on their copyrights by taping the programs. The court concluded that it was fine to sell VCRs because they serve substantial non-infringing purposes. What that means is Sony can sell a product that can be used for copyright infringement so long as that's not the only or primary purpose.

I'm not sure if that covers software but if it does then you would ask whether or not a software patch serves non-infringing purposes. I'm not sure it does.

But there's a theory called "market failure" that helped lead to the Sony decision. In the Sony case you’d want to allow fair use because the individuals using the VCRs are unlikely to be in a position to negotiate for a license with the television networks. The courts aren't blind to real world logic and good public policy like this. It's why thumbnails of images are not copyright violations even though they technically fit the definition. So perhaps it's good public policy to allow some software patches?

There's also a case called "Sony v. Connectix." In this case, the court said that making copies of a computer program for the purpose of reverse engineering might be permissible. So perhaps a patch could eke by by stretching this, especially since the patch itself technically doesn't use anything from the original (which is always a helpful fact for the defendant in a copyright claim).

Fair Use would be a good place to start.

There's a four part test to determine whether something falls under Fair Use:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. The nature of the copyrighted work;
3. Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


The third prong is highly in favor of the patch creator since nothing of the original (at least I would imagine none) is actually being used. Of course using the patch in any way requires the entirety of the CT rom...so...yeah. But the fourth prong is really what's at stake here since it could really screw up SquareEnix's financial interest in Chrono Trigger. For example, if somebody releases a patch that turns a $20 piece of software into a free piece of software, that's going to really hurt the copyright holder. This patch isn't quite doing that but it could hurt the financial viability of the CT brand.

[Sonicwolf]

Pretty much every End User License Agreement that comes with every piece of software (except open source stuff) makes it clear that you can't make modifications to the software. It's pretty much a standard condition to using any piece of software.

It also basically states that no one else is allowed to touch or look at the game and your not allowed to sell it and lend it out. LOL

[Kitsune Sniper]

It also basically states that no one else is allowed to touch or look at the game and your not allowed to sell it and lend it out. LOL

Uh, not always. Most EULAs allow selling the software if everything gets transferred to the new owner, including packaging, discs, and all paperwork (and in certain cases, the license must be transferred via a written document.)

[Nature Boy]

Does anyone know this: do most big publishers have their own legal departments, or do they procure 3rd party legal assistance?

[exit]

It sucks that this happened to them, but I really don't see what the problem is. They were using copyrighted material and the owners of said material told them to stop. It may be a dick move by SE to stop them at the finish line, but it's their property, it's not like stuff like this hasn't happened before.

I remember a few years back when someone was doing a translation for Rondo of Blood and Konami notified him to stop, so the guy stopped and even stated that he understood why they told him to. Luckily he wasn't that far into the translation, but it's the same thing nonetheless.

[kupomogli]

I remember a few years back when someone was doing a translation for Rondo of Blood and Konami notified him to stop, so the guy stopped and even stated that he understood why they told him to. Luckily he wasn't that far into the translation, but it's the same thing nonetheless.

Konami didn't wait until both projects were almost entirely finished. Konami also has did something with the franchise, like actually releasing Rondo of Blood in English(although as an unlockable on the remake.)

I don't expect Square to do anything with the Chrono Trigger franchise. I don't expect them to do anything with the Ogre Battle franchise, either. They already have the Final Fantasy series, Front Mission, SaGa, and Seiken Densetsu. Those are really the only long running series the company has and it makes me doubt they'll expand on any others. I know there's also Kingdom Hearts, but technically it's included under the Final Fantasy fanboy sub category(I'm also only talking about the Squaresoft IP's, not including Enix's which Dragon Quest is really the only long running series -- Soul Blazer/Illusion of Gaia/Terranigma isn't long running.)

[kainemaxwell]

Does anyone know this: do most big publishers have their own legal departments, or do they procure 3rd party legal assistance?
I always figured the really big names would have their own legal departments (Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, etc) and smaller ones would have 3rd party legal outsourcing.

[Leo_A]

I'm pretty sure he'll say it's not "law", therefore it's not enforceable with fines or jailtime, even though it is.

Your acting annoyed at someone trying to have a friendly debate on the matter, or at least that's the impression I've gotten from your last few post. I'm not in this to frusturate anyone, I don't even like Chrono Trigger so I wouldn't want to download this anyways. :)

At the risk of irritating you further, I never said it was one way or the other, or that you were flat out incorrect. You very well might be correct with all your statements, I'm just not convinced. I was just casting doubt that it's the case and trying to apply what I've experienced with modding racing simulations in the PC community to the emulation scene. Plus I just like having debates...

And as has been stated before, EULA's haven't been extensively tested in the court room and I doubt there was a EULA attached to Chrono Trigger that prohibits modifications, though its been years since I've closely looked at a SuperNes game manual so I might be remembering incorrectly. I highly doubt they forsaw something like this happening over a decade ago and I doubt it went much beyond pirating, limitations of renting, etc.

Edit - I can't even find anything beyond warranty information in SuperNes manuals. Would the EULA information be in the precautions booklet every game shipped with? Or did they just not go beyond describing the warranty the game has? Unless its in that precautions booklet, theres absolutely nothing in the SuperNes manuals I've checked that prohibit this.

Edit Again - Was checking manuals for games that came out very early in the SuperNes's lifecycle, here's one from Super Mario All-Stars that appears pretty universal for later releases.

"IMPORTANT

Warning: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by
domestic and international copyright laws. "Back-up" or "archival" copies are
not authorized and are not nessary to protect your software. Violators will be
prosecuted.

This Nintendo game is not designed for use with any unauthorized copying
device. Use of any such device will invalidate your Nintendo product warranty.
Nintendo (and/or any Nintendo licensee or distributor) is not responsible for
any damage or loss caused by the use of any such device. If use of such device
causes your game to stop operating, disconnect the device carefully to avoid
damage and resume normal game play. If your game ceases to operate and you
have no device attached to it, please contact your local authorized Nintendo
retailer.

The contents of this notice do not interfere with your statutory rights.

This manual and other printed matter accompanying this game are protected by
domestic and international copyright laws.

The rental of this game without permission of Nintendo or its licensees is
strictly prohibited."

So where is it? I've yet to see any evidence that its illegal to modify software, unless it's for clearly illegal purposes like enabling piracy. It's not in the EULA. In fact, from what I've seen, its only been protected like the successful Game Genie lawsuit that Nintendo lost in court. Show me a law that suggest its illegal, since I've had no luck locating one.

[NayusDante]

My original release of FF Chronicles has no license agreement, no EULA, or anything beyond "unauthorized copying, rental, public performance is a violation of applicable laws."

Since the Japanese ROM is on the disc as "ROM.BIN," one only needs to copy the file to their hard drive and apply the patch. This is identical to ripping music to your hard drive.

[Jorpho]

How about this? Build the patch into an executable that asks the user to insert an FF Chronicles CD, and then calculates a hash to verify the CD's authenticity before letting the user play.

Of course, it wouldn't stop someone from using a copy of the CD, and someone would inevitably hack the executable to remove the check, and of course the whole question is moot if one is going to call into question the legality of making the patch in the first place.

[kupomogli]

Warning: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by
domestic and international copyright laws. "Back-up" or "archival" copies are
not authorized and are not nessary to protect your software. Violators will be
prosecuted.

This is easy to get around. Someone else copied it. I own a physical copy of Chrono Trigger so I downloaded it. :P

"Your honor, we find the defendant, not guilty." "Kajar Laboratories: Rejected! And now we will proceed uploading Crimson Echoes." "Romhacking.net: In your face!! Can you feel that, can you feel it?" "Everyone else: Oooooooooooo."

Atleast that would be nice if that's what happened. But it's obvious romhacking.net nor the creators want to attempt to cross that line.

Also, Romhacking.net "destroyed all known copies of Crimson Echoes." Has anyone downloaded any beta versions previously from the main site or were there none?

[SegaAges]

Yeeeeeaaaaaah!

OOOOOOKKKKKKKK!

[TonyTheTiger]

Also, Romhacking.net "destroyed all known copies of Crimson Echoes."

Something tells me that's not true. I know that if I made something like that I would at least keep it for myself.

They could get around this if the data were actually stolen from them. But that would be a hard sell. "Yeah, seriously. My computer was stolen/hacked and the thief uploaded the file onto a popular torrent site. I swear!" To say that comes off as insincere would be a gross understatement but if it did happen (or is set up to look like it happened) then Square Enix would pretty much be SOL.

[Leo_A]

Or just wait 5 years, visit your local public library and sit down at a PC and upload it while making sure it doesn't retain the title screen and name you had previousily announced and anything included in screenshots you had posted. Even better yet, visit a library while on vacation somewhere and then it won't even appear as it came from the same area you reside in.

If they really wanted this to come out, it would be easy and simple enough to do so down the road without any links to yourself. But they seem content to not release it and just attract some attention, so I'm sure its been permanently shelved, especially if they can't gain anything from its release.

[Gameguy]

They either shouldn't have said anything publicly until it was completely finished, or asked directly for permission before they started. There's other hacks of Chrono Trigger out there though, some are pretty funny.

Chrono Trigger: Pervert version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYdNUUwfLyY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KdOhrt-rvI

[Melf]

So where is it? I've yet to see any evidence that its illegal to modify software, unless it's for clearly illegal purposes like enabling piracy. It's not in the EULA. In fact, from what I've seen, its only been protected like the successful Game Genie lawsuit that Nintendo lost in court. Show me a law that suggest its illegal, since I've had no luck locating one.

There's been precedent for the illegality of modifcation a game without permission for almost 30 years. Here are some cases:

- Chips made by Artic International that made Pac-Man run faster. Midway sued Artic in 1982, and a Chicago court ruled that the modification was illegal.

- Nintendo's case against Galoob. Though Nintendo lost, it was the first high profile case against derivative works. The only reason Galoob won was because none of the modifications remained when the Game Genie was shut off.

- The recent case in the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals against three programmers who created a free, open source program for use with products made by Blizzard that allowed multi-player games without the use of Battle.net. The programmers lost.

As for using the ROM as a patch:

- Micro Stars was sued by GT Interactive, 3D Realms, and the original developer of Duke Nukem (Formgen) over its release of Nuke It!, which added user-created levels to Duke Nukem 3D. Judge Alex Kozinski ruled that only the original developer had the right to create a sequel of a property unless authorization had been given, even if they included level-building tools in the game itself! Micro Star was liable for contributory infringement - they provided the means for others to violate copyright.

So, there you have 3 cases where modification was struck down as illegal by the courts, and one that set up a precedent for future cases. Granted, this is going to vary by scenario and even by state, but there is clear precedent for Square's actions, and I would wager good money that they would win in court if the case ever got there.

[swlovinist]

I've been following this for the past few days. While the news doesn't really affect me, not that big on Chrono Trigger, it just validates my dislike for Square in general. It's a dick move and a big fuck-you to obviously hard-core fans of the series.

Completely agree. I just dont get why companies do this kind of shit. Its like Lucasarts going after a fan movie of Star Wars. This game was to honor and possibly generate sales for the company. I for one will just personally speak with my wallet and buy all square games used from now on. They lost a customer for this move.

[Kitsune Sniper]

There's been precedent for the illegality of modifcation a game without permission for almost 30 years. Here are some cases:

*cut for space*

THANK YOU.

[Wolfrider31]

What exactly is the difference between this and a 12 year old sitting on his computer making an RPG with ripped Chrono Trigger sprites? Is Square claiming that their IP rights allows them to stop hobbyists from making derivative content for their own use?

If they are, I've got some news for them - they don't have any legal rights when it comes to that. They might (MIGHT) be able to argue that the scope of the project counted as distribution but that's highly unlikely.

The developers should have stood up for themselves. They had every legal right to take this project on and release it for non-commercial purposes. This isn't piracy... it's not a violation of Square's IP... it presents no threat to their business. This is the video game equivalent of Harry Potter fanfiction.

[Kitsune Sniper]

The developers should have stood up for themselves. They had every legal right to take this project on and release it for non-commercial purposes. This isn't piracy... it's not a violation of Square's IP... it presents no threat to their business. This is the video game equivalent of Harry Potter fanfiction.

Didn't Rowling (or rather, her publishers) try to go against fanfic writers at one point?

[Wolfrider31]

Didn't Rowling (or rather, her publishers) try to go against fanfic writers at one point?

I don't know about Rowling. I know Anne Rice has attempted to. It failed. Because... you know... it's stupid.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Yes, but we're talking about Anne Rice here. She's not exactly right up in there. :P

[Jorpho]

Didn't Rowling (or rather, her publishers) try to go against fanfic writers at one point?She tried to block the in-paper publication of the Harry Potter Lexicon. But trying to stop fanfic writers from writing and posting fanfic would be like failing to come up with an apt analogy to complete this sentence.

[Kitsune Sniper]

She tried to block the in-paper publication of the Harry Potter Lexicon. But trying to stop fanfic writers from writing and posting fanfic would be like failing to come up with an apt analogy to complete this sentence.

Thanks for correcting me, I -knew- there was a lawsuit but wasn't sure about the details.

[XYXZYZ]

This thing reminds me of Tecmo suing Ninjahacker for the DOAXVB mods.

And here's a quote from the Chrono Trigger website forums-

On May 8, we received a wide-reaching cease and desist letter from Square Enix, Inc. As with Chrono Trigger: Resurrection and Chrono Trigger Remake Project's letters, we have uploaded the letter for viewing here as a matter of public interest.

So this is the third C&D letter these guys have received from Square?

[Nature Boy]

I just dont get why companies do this kind of shit. Its like Lucasarts going after a fan movie of Star Wars. This game was to honor and possibly generate sales for the company. I for one will just personally speak with my wallet and buy all square games used from now on. They lost a customer for this move.

You have to understand the whole "protecting their copyright" thing I think.

Obviously Mr. Homebrewer isn't going to put a dent into their pockets. But if they allow him to violate their copyright, they're *screwed* when someone else comes along, creates their own 'fan version' of Chrono Trigger and has the backing of, say, Atlus.

Atlus argues that Squenix didn't protect their copyright in the case of Mr. Homebrewer, so Squenix has therefore given up that right according to copyright law. Atlus wins, and goes on to make a *fortune* at Squenix's expense.

I can see someone then arguing "what would the odds be that an Atlus would *do* that though" and I'd have to reply "why would a Squenix *ever* put themselves at risk, even if it's minimal, with their IP?" Your IP is what makes your company unique - give that up and you're screwed.

[Vlcice]

Nature Boy, I think you might be confusing copyright and trademark laws. Trademark law does work like how you describe; companies are obliged to protect their trademarks to ensure that they're not diluted. Copyright law doesn't require a company to protect their copyrights in order to make challenges in the future.

[TonyTheTiger]

This is technically a trademark issue, too. So there's no denying that Square Enix had good reason to go after this project. In fact, it might be more of a trademark issue than a copyright issue given the facts.

[Vlcice]

True, I'd agree that the trademark is probably a big part of this. I was just pointing out that Nature Boy was talking about copyright specifically.

[TonyTheTiger]

I just don't understand the vitriol levied against Square here. A common theme appears to be the spin that this is the big evil corporation abusing the poor defenseless fan project. But the protections that Square Enix is seeking to enforce to defend their intellectual property are the exact same protections that the little guy gets to enforce when some big corporation tries to jack their shit. If the situation were reversed and this guy had created a brand new game and all of a sudden Square Enix started showing off their own game that was either strikingly similar or literally a pseudo-sequel/patch, I doubt anybody here would say that a cease and desist letter would be inappropriate regardless of how far in development Square's project was or whether or not they'd be giving it away for free.

[exit]

There's something that hasn't happened yet (from what I know of at least) that surprises me, there's a group out there that released a mod that updates some of the graphics on the PC version of Final Fantasy 7 and SE never sent them a C&D letter. You'd think that would be the first thing to get one since FF7 is their cash cow and they're not even close to milking it to death.

[NayusDante]

There's also things like the FF5 translation, retranslations of others, etc. They just seem to be doing this with CT.

[badinsults]

Despite all their denials, I still truly believe that this is all a hoax, and there never was a nearly complete hack of Chrono Trigger. I have seens some pretty prominent snes rom hackers pretty much say that they too think this is a bunch of bullshit. There have been many SquareEnix games that have undergone rom hacks (most notably the many fan translated games, including ones that have had commericial release), and Square hasn't given a crap. Some have tried to contact the lawyer that sent the C&D order, and all their emails bounced.

[Nature Boy]

Nature Boy, I think you might be confusing copyright and trademark laws.

That's likely because I am. Dammit Jim, I'm a programmer, not a lawyer! :)

[Nature Boy]

Despite all their denials, I still truly believe that this is all a hoax, and there never was a nearly complete hack of Chrono Trigger.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. What better way is there to get out of actually having to show somebody something and not lose face?

I was thinking that when I asked about my "Team of Lawyers" question. The letter shows as having been signed by the Squenix Legal Team. Sure they may have altered the letter to hide the real names (like they did their own at the top), but I'd've figured they would have used the same black box treatment if that were the case. That part alone made the letter look fishy to me.