Where Sega messed up with Sonic

[Zap!]

I'm wondering how Sega would have ever been able to compete with Nintendo with Alex Kidd as its flagship series. Don't get me wrong, the Alex Kidd games are fun, but if that was what was offered as the BIG title to compete with the Mario games, the Genesis would have flopped miserably -- Sonic fit the attitude that Sega was trying to go for, and the fast-paced platforming of the games is what made them fun.


I really don't think that this guy...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Alex_Kidd_EnchantedCastle.png

...would have worked as a mascot for Sega when Sega was distinctly trying to separate itself from Nintendo as something different. Besides all of that, the Alex Kidd games really didn't show off the capabilities of the Genesis when it came to the much bally-hooed "blast processing."

The Genesis was released in the US right around (give or take a few days) August 20th, 1989. Sonic did not come out until 1991. The Genesis in 1991 was gaining steam fast even before the game came out. It was getting positive reviews in the media, and many people were upset with Nintendo for not releasing the SNES until late 1991, not to mention how the TG-16 was going nowhere. I personally think if they had heavily promoted AK more the Genesis would have been a hit anyway.

That picture you posted was Alex's look in Enchanted Castle, a great game in its own sense. Had Sega heavily developed for AK, I can only imagine how popular he could have became. Perhaps Enchanted Castle as a pack-in?

[Sosage]

I've read up until 191 and 200 as a standalone, so I don't remember which issue it was in, however it was in one of the stories that explained the Overlanders history. The line read 'We call them the furries.' There was a huge explosion of rage in most of the Sonic communities, as Archie had effectively marked 'furrie' as a derogatory form of 'furry' and had solidly connected Sonic with the furry fandom (something that had shortly before this point had been established by a storyboarder for Family Guy who was trying to restart SatM Sonic).

This is actually really interesting. I made my original statement not knowing about this at all. Just that a lot of the Sonic fandom I've seen on the Internet seems to be tied to, if not being straight up a piece of adult furry fantasy. When I look at stuff coming out this generation, I notice that Sega is pretty much pandering to this group. It becomes blatant with STH 360.

It also doesn't help that some ideas feel like bad Internet fan fiction. Shadow? I mean...really? Sega and George Lucas should totally swap notes.

This isn't so much dogging what people wank to, as dogging Sega for twisting their franchise's presentation to such a degree in order to fan service a fringe group.

[Arkhan]

Okay...getting past the dripping sarcasm,
.

I wasnt being sarcastic....:dance:

bonks cooler than sonic AND mario anyways.

climbs walls with his teeth, goes inside dinosaurs, gets sneezed out into space!?

completely awesome.

[Zap!]

I wasnt being sarcastic....:dance:

bonks cooler than sonic AND mario anyways.

climbs walls with his teeth, goes inside dinosaurs, gets sneezed out into space!?

completely awesome.

Bonk was awesome. I seriously wonder why Sony and MS never really got on the mascot bandwagon. Their systems seriously need them.

[TonyTheTiger]

They did make an attempt early on but they were just really half-hearted ones. Sony with Crash Bandicoot and MS with Master Chief. They kind of said, "Oh, those are the most famous characters on our system at the moment? Ok, put their pictures somewhere."

[dayzed4life]

Bonk was awesome. I seriously wonder why Sony and MS never really got on the mascot bandwagon. Their systems seriously need them.

Sony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toro_%28cartoon_character%29

I have no answer for MS. lol, I don't know if Toro counts as a mascot though since he was pretty much Japan only and only appeals to 12 year old girls... and middle age japanese men?

[Haoie]

So when did all the furries latch onto Sonic like leeches anyway?

Not a pleasant look.

[JSoup]

So when did all the furries latch onto Sonic like leeches anyway?

Not a pleasant look.

The characters are of an anthropomorphic design that is easy to manipulate for personal use, similar to many Pokemon and Fifi LeFume.

.....I know a lot of IRL furries.

[Rickstilwell1]

I wonder if Project Needlemouse for PSN / 360 Arcade will end up turning Sonic around like they did for Mario? We can only hope...

[Zap!]

They did make an attempt early on but they were just really half-hearted ones. Sony with Crash Bandicoot and MS with Master Chief. They kind of said, "Oh, those are the most famous characters on our system at the moment? Ok, put their pictures somewhere."


Sony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toro_%28cartoon_character%29

I have no answer for MS. lol, I don't know if Toro counts as a mascot though since he was pretty much Japan only and only appeals to 12 year old girls... and middle age japanese men?

You're right about Crash Bandicoot. I liked that series of games back in the late 90's, too bad they did not continue to use him.

As for Master Chef and Toro, I haven't heard much about then (Toro nothing at all).

The key to having a true, long lasting mascot is to be a first party powerhouse (as a mascot shouldn't be third party). Sega was and Nintendo is. Not so much with Sony and MS.

[diskoboy]

IMO, Sega screwed up with Sonic during the Saturn years.

Not releasing (and/or canceling, in the case of Sonic Xtreme) a proper Sonic game during those years was almost blasphemous, to Sega fans. Even if they made it in 2-D, there should've been a Saturn Sonic game.

Spinball and Racing seemed like pathetic attempts to cash in on the Sonic franchise. And this pretty much tainted the Sonic name, to me.

Almost similar to Nintendo ditching Metroid during the N64 years. When the 3-D versions started coming out, during the Gamecubes life, Metroid didn't have the same feel as its older games.

[kedawa]

A 2D Sonic for Saturn could have been amazing.

[vivaeljason]

Bonk was awesome. I seriously wonder why Sony and MS never really got on the mascot bandwagon. Their systems seriously need them.

Bonk definitely WAS awesome.

As for the lack of mascots on Sony and MS systems, I think that it all stems from a desire to shy away from being perceived as too "kiddie." Games like Mario (and Sonic and Bonk and so on) appeal to a certain age demographic that Sony and Microsoft just aren't looking for. That's not to say that they didn't try with mascots, though. Sony did use Crash Bandicoot pretty heavily for awhile, and I distinctly remember a lot of early promotion with Sofia from Battle Arena Toshinden and Robbit from Jumping Flash, and Microsoft did try with Blinx for a while there.

I guess that it boils down to the thought that they didn't need mascots, and given the PS1 and PS2's sales, they may have been right (bringing a tear to this platform fan's eye).

By the way, Zap!, let's agree to disagree on the Sonic-Alex Kidd debate. I have a feeling that neither of us are gonna budge too much on this one. :)

[Sonicwolf]

You're right about Crash Bandicoot. I liked that series of games back in the late 90's, too bad they did not continue to use him.

They milked the hell out of Crash Bandicoot past Warped and it is sad to see that the franchise is very lame now. Oh how wonderful those games were on the PlayStation,

[Baloo]

A 2D Sonic for Saturn could have been amazing.

Knuckles Chaotix should've been released for Saturn alongside 3D Blast. If those two games weren't on 32x and Genesis respectively, Saturn would've been considered a better system IMO.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I wonder if Project Needlemouse for PSN / 360 Arcade will end up turning Sonic around like they did for Mario? We can only hope...

Is it a downloadable game or is it being released as a regular game ala New Super Mario Bros. Wii?

I am hoping for a latter just because I feel they may put more effort into it that way.

[SegaAges]

Hmm, So besides the camera angles, why did you really not like Sonic 06?

I have said it before and I will say it again, the camera angles for me only messed up when I made myself a shortcut that was not intended in the game.

The Shadow game itself was pretty good. Sure, it is a very far departure from Sonic games, but then again, a departure from a departure is not out of the ordinary.

From all of the people I have talked to, I have concluded a bunch of information about the Sonic hate (since this issue comes around alot): Sonic keeps changing the formula and leaving 2D, plus the camera angles can get annoying. Is that it?

Sonic has definately changed and shifted over the years. That is not always a bad thing. A perfect example: Tony Hawk. Now, I am a huge Tony Hawk fan (I even wrote a guide for the game that got bad reviews, explained the bad reviews, and then explained how to be good at the game), but their formula and keeping it mostly the same has hurt them in business. Now, the games sell very well. What I mean by that is that another game like Skate will come along and completely change the skateboarding video game formula we are used to, and it worked out very well for Skate

Some of us nerds would love for Sonic the Heghehog 4 (sequel to the Genny game) to get released on XBLA ala MM9 style, but the rest of the world may not want that. Many people out there have horrible attention spans and would get too bored, too fast with nothing but 2D Sonic games.

Sure, Sonic 2 was a masterpiece, but lay off the pedestal that because that game was so amazing, that you will reject anything that is not that good. You will reject anything that does not adhere to the Sonic 2 formula.

Have you even played Sonic Unleashed? The game is badass. As for the werehog stages, do not feed me the "it is a clone of xxx". What? God of War?!? God of War is a clone of Die Hard Arcade and Dynamite Deka. Sure, there is a little more action sequence button hitting (I think it is called that) than DHA, but look at the games. God of War was not the first, and it won't be the last. It is somewhere in the middle.

No, the werehog is not 2D Sonic, but it is still fun to play. There a alot of examples of other characters that have changed over the years as well and I will not even start to bring them up now.

I say that instead of just looking for reasons to hate the newer games, go in and try to enjoy it. All of these, Sonic sucks, Sonic fell off, I don't even know much about the next game but since Sonic is in it I know it will blow seem to be just random online rants really.

We are gamers. Even though, yes, I am a fanboy, I am pretty confident that some of the anti-fanboys hop up to try and get people like me going on a rant. Instead, we should take the time to play the games we think will blow. Remember kids, some games, even if you suck at them, are still good. Tony Hawk Ride is a great example of this. Alot of people just suck at the game. Because some of the same people were good at the other TH games, it went immediately into a "this game is horrible" thing. Learn to play the games. Don't hate them because you are not an expert at them.

I am going to stop hopping into Sonic hate threads and just defend Sonic, I will do something different: Tell me why you don't like Sonic games now. Tell me why you do not like the newer Sonic games coming out. Tell me why you should write off Sega All-stars racing while playing spin-off racing games with other popular characters in there. Instead of regurgitating the same old stuff, lets get technical.

Really, explain to me why you do not like the newer Sonic games. I will reply and explain to you many of the good points in the games though when you reply.

I figured that if you are going to make another "Sonic has sucked since Genny" threads or bump an old one, at least go into some detail about it instead of "don't even get me started with Sonic 06". I am getting you started. Go ahead, tell me about why you don't like it.

As for character spin-offs themselves, Sonic is not the only one to do it. If you did not like the Shadow games, go ahead and say why.

Yes, I will retort, but it is easier for us to do it this way than to have anti-Sonic rants and then me doing a Sonic rant. Let's get technical.

[kedawa]

It;s not hard to understand peoples disdain for modern Sonic. The original Sonic games were some of the best games in their genre. The new Sonic games are nothing but mediocre license whoring. I don't think anyone would complain about the series changing if it were changing for the better, but you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that crappy voice acting, sloppy controls, useless new characters, boring cutscenes, absurd loading times, and bland graphics are improvements over the original games.

[SegaAges]

It;s not hard to understand peoples disdain for modern Sonic. The original Sonic games were some of the best games in their genre. The new Sonic games are nothing but mediocre license whoring. I don't think anyone would complain about the series changing if it were changing for the better, but you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that crappy voice acting, sloppy controls, useless new characters, boring cutscenes, absurd loading times, and bland graphics are improvements over the original games.

Graphics have been continually improving over the years. No, they are not Gears of War graphics by any means, but then again, many games are not. The graphics do continue game after game. The graphics on Unleashed are pretty awesome, actually.

The controls did not feel sloppy in Sonic 06 or Unleashed. If I told Sonic to move in one direction, he would move in that direction. If I wanted to do a homing attack, the homing attack worked just fine. I have never had an issue with controls being sloppy at all on the newer Sonic games.

Most series will continue to introduce new characters. Here is just an example (do not get all hissy, as I am not talking down the game, just using an example): The CastleVania series still continues to pump out new characters over and over again.

Voice acting: ok, fair enough. You are correct that voice acting is not all that great.

But when did voice acting mean a game was just absolute crap?

[kedawa]

The fact that the game even needs a homing attack should tell you something about how well Sonic translates into 3D.

The problem I have with the graphics isn't the technical quality, it's the fact that the game world just isn't as interesting or unique as it was in the 16bit games. It's just Sonic in a generic looking environment with generic looking people and cars and stuff. If it had the same style as the classic games, I wouldn't mind it so much.

Also, the game is named after Sonic, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect him to be the focus. I wouldn't want the next Batman game to force me to play as the Justice League two thirds of the time.
Castlevania is not a good example because, for one thing, it has had a different protagonist in just about every single game since Castlevania 2, and secondly, it's japanese title actually references Dracula, and not the hero. It's a game about going to Dracula's castle and beating his ass down. Sonic is a game about a blue hedgehog that goes fast. The werewolf stuff in Sonic Unleashed would be like making every second level in Castlevania Rebirth some sort of monster truck race.

[Sosage]

The original Sonic games were some of the best games in their genre. The new Sonic games are nothing but mediocre

Kedawa is trying to imitate a sound via the medium of written word. I believe the sound he just made was of hitting one of several nails on the head.

[Arkhan]

Kedawa makes an interesting point.

What the hell happened to Spring Yard Zone, Oil Ocean, Casino Night Zone (seriously), and all of the other very robotic, futuristic zones and scenery?


When did sonic get off a plane and go LOOK GUYS, CALIFORNIA. LETS GO CHECK OUT THE BEACH, HIT UP THE HOTEL, AND MAYBE KILL SOME BAD GUYS TOO IF THERES TIME BEFORE DINNER.

[Jorpho]

Knuckles Chaotix should've been released for Saturn alongside 3D Blast. If those two games weren't on 32x and Genesis respectively, Saturn would've been considered a better system IMO.But 3D Blast was released for the Saturn. (And apparently it was greatly superior to the Genesis version, too.)

[vivaeljason]

Kedawa makes an interesting point.

What the hell happened to Spring Yard Zone, Oil Ocean, Casino Night Zone (seriously), and all of the other very robotic, futuristic zones and scenery?


When did sonic get off a plane and go LOOK GUYS, CALIFORNIA. LETS GO CHECK OUT THE BEACH, HIT UP THE HOTEL, AND MAYBE KILL SOME BAD GUYS TOO IF THERES TIME BEFORE DINNER.

That is definitely a serious problem...the fact that modern Sonic games don't include unique areas from the original games like those listed above (I'd like to add just about every zone from Sonic 2) just really hurts. The generic level designs really bring the fun down.

[SegaAges]

The levels in Sonic unleashed and Sonic 06 were not all on the beach.

No, they do not have the same exact zones, but honestly, just rehashing the same zones in 3D, to me, sounds a little lame. Switching it up to newer areas is super awesome.

The Werehog, yes, it is a different mode of play, but it is not bad. It is actually very fun.

If you want speed, man, some of the levels in Sonic Unleashed are seriously just insane.

Saying a homing attack is required for 3D to make it better is kind of silly bro. It is an extra move.

There are numerous games that made a transition to 3D and added new moves. It is assumed that there would be extra moves.

The games do have a couple beach levels, but not all that many. It covers the basics and also evolves in that. You know: lava, ice, water, sand, big city/metropolis.

Here are some screenshots to show you guys:
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/726/726485/sonic-the-hedgehog-20060818041725958.jpg
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1310/1146772066.jpg

Honestly, I just grabbed a couple to show that the detail in the game's backgrounds was actually pretty good.

[vivaeljason]

The Werehog, yes, it is a different mode of play, but it is not bad. It is actually very fun.


WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Seriously, man...do you work for Sega? Are you trying to move the extra copies of Sonic Unleashed that are lying around the ol' warehouse?

[Arkhan]

Big Brother Is Watching You!

[JSoup]

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Seriously, man...do you work for Sega? Are you trying to move the extra copies of Sonic Unleashed that are lying around the ol' warehouse?

I'm no Werehog fan, but the levels aren't as bad as you're making them out to be. Seemed like standard platforming action to me.

[vivaeljason]

I'm no Werehog fan, but the levels aren't as bad as you're making them out to be. Seemed like standard platforming action to me.

It's not so much that the levels are bad or that Sonic Unleashed is that terrible, it's just that sometimes when Sega Ages posts, I see stuff that's just a step below Doublespeak.

The line I quoted above drives me nuts. You're all wrong...IT IS FUN. I'm not going to bother telling you why I think so, it just is.

EDIT: Keep in mind that everyone is guilty of doing stuff like that occassionally, myself included. That particular line just struck a chord with me for some reason.

[Sonicwolf]

I wonder which einstein at Sega decided to make every 3d Sonic game with a stupid gimmick game play mode or character addition...

[HYB]

I don't get what people have against playing as other characters.

I loved the hunting stages in SA2, and while not my favorite, the Eggman/Tails levels were okay too.

To me, everything that came after SA2 is crap (minus the GC port obviously). I think the story in SA2 was tought out okay, I liked the characters and the fact that there were two sides to play as, the chao garden, the huge replay value it had (I still have not got all the emblems). Not to mention I liked the level design, the character models and how great the controls handle (the camera is fine).

Now, the story, character models, level design and controls is where they went wrong in my opinion. The end of the world thing is getting worn out, the new characters and robots/everything else they keep bringing in are just stupid (not to mention resurrecting Shadow poorly). If you're going to add characters keep their playtime shorter than Sonic's. No chaos, no extra missions that would want me to play the levels more and I seriously hate the whole beach thing and the level design in general, the stages take like, 10-20 minutes to finish. The control in the newer games also feels slippery and focuses way too much on you pushing button combos fast enough or doing some other ridiculous shit. The homing attack also feels slow as fuck these days. And the character models just look stupid. I tought the SA2 ones looked great, because if you look closely, for example Shadow has a really nice texture and they actually looked better than the plasticy rubber models we get these days. How are rubber spines supposed to hurt anyone? The SA2 models had a nice edge and feel to them, and at least they could try to make them look as cool.

I get so frustrated with Sega since they keep pushing out this crap when they could take their time and ensure we get a good game, 2d or 3d style gameplay (just keep them separate, please). While not catering towards everyone, at least they could try. We'll see about Needlemouse. For now, I'll just keep on reading Sonic Archives since it's better than playing any newer Sonic game.

My god I still hate playing over 10 minute stages, no mater what Sonic game.

[Hari Seldon]

Sonic was ruined the moment Chris Chan found out about it.

[Ed Oscuro]

Sonic was ruined the moment Chris Chan found out about it.
Who's this? Is he anything like the dramatic cartooning saga that is David Gonterman? (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Daveykins)

[HYB]

Sonic was ruined the moment Chris Chan found out about it.

Post of the year.


Who's this? Is he anything like the dramatic cartooning saga that is David Gonterman? (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Daveykins)

Even worse http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Chris_chan .

[Enigmus]

Yep, agreed...\\^_^/

Your sig banner made me scream "FUCK 4KIDS OR WHOEVER MAKES THAT RETARDED HORSESHIT!" at my PC monitor.

Still, totally agree with you. Best post so far.

[Famidrive-16]

Sonic was ruined the moment Chris Chan found out about it.

no fuck you we aren't going there

[Jorpho]

Wow... I find myself filled with regret for my past social awkwardness, but also relief that so much of it seems to be behind me, and resolve not to backslide in the future.

Maybe ED is good for something after all.

[vivaeljason]

Yep, agreed...\\^_^/

Why is it that 16 of your 17 posts contain the words "Yep, agreed, and "\\^_^/"? It's cool you're consistent and all, but I'm creeped out.

[Enigmus]

Why is it that 16 of your 17 posts contain the words "Yep, agreed, and "\\^_^/"? It's cool you're consistent and all, but I'm creeped out.


He has that and a Naruto signature. Why AREN'T you creeped out yet?
Run to the blast bunker before this guy nukes the thread!

[JSoup]

Why is it that 16 of your 17 posts contain the words "Yep, agreed, and "\\^_^/"? It's cool you're consistent and all, but I'm creeped out.

It's called spamming to increase post count.

[Hari Seldon]

no fuck you we aren't going there

You know you want to. :D