The "Quit Derailing the RPG Threads" Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Gameguy

03-10-2010, 01:51 AM

How does a game "not aging well" make it suck. That's unfair to the game. It's completely opinionated. Noone, and I mean NOONE at the time of "game design/development" goes:

"MAN. WE BETTER PLAN THIS GAME OUT WITH PEOPLE 20 YEARS FROM NOW IN MIND. THEY WILL BE USED TO NEWER, BETTER TECHNOLOGY."

If it was fun then, and isn't fun now, thats your problem, not the games.

The game can't change, so that means YOU did. don't hate on the game because you can't cope with remembering/experience simpler times!

It's like the little twerps in BttF that say Wild Gunman is a babys toy.

Also, Xenogears kicked ass.
I still like Pong and Asteroids even though those came out way before I was born. Games are played for 2 reasons. Either it's a good game so people will enjoy playing it, or it's a bad game but still gets played at the time because that was the best that was available so people had to settle for it until something better came along. 20 years later only the good games still get played.

I played Castlevania II long before the AVGN reviewed it, and I don't like it. I found it hard to believe why the series became popular after first playing it and Castlevania Adventure for Gameboy, I only started liking the series after I played some other games in the series.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 02:05 AM

Yeah, it's opinionated. Are you finally understanding that for the first time? You rail on the subject like it's pure objectivity, when it's mixed, yet still heavily subjective.

That's enough for today, we've made great progress with this recent breakthrough. I'd like you to continue writing in your Hydlide-complex journal until our next session.

it doesn't matter if its opinionated. Holding games to newer standards is dumb. What the hell is that? The "travel forward in time" clause of game design?

especially when the arguments are always the same

"THE GAMES DUMB. I DIE WHILE WALKING. SLIMES KILL ME I DONT KNOW HOW TO ATTACK MOSNTER. BATTLE SYSTEM IS CONFUSING."

(Hydlide)

or I always like the Ultima ones

'THE GRAPHICS SUCK. I HAVE TO TALK TO PEOPLE? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? THE SPELLS MAKE NO SENSE. FINAL FANTASY IS BETTER"

Pongs dumb. It sucks. Its got no music, the graphics suck, and tennis for Wii is better.

oh wait, thats not true. Comparing pong to wii is stupid.

Icarus Moonsight

03-10-2010, 02:14 AM

it doesn't matter if its opinionated. Holding games to newer standards is dumb. What the hell is that? The "travel forward in time" clause of game design?

You can like Hydlide if you want... Hell, somebody has too. That's not the issue. You ignored the post directly above yours that spelled it out rather well. There are many games pre-'85 I like, still play, and would personally consider great games even today. So, you see, there is no new standard directly to the era of the games... Just the games themselves. That's where the "Aged (or not) Well" factor comes into play. To ignore the present standing of a game is actually worse than what you think is going on with Hydlide. Again, if you like it, fine. Go play it. :)

especially when the arguments are always the same

"THE GAMES DUMB. I DIE WHILE WALKING. SLIMES KILL ME I DONT KNOW HOW TO ATTACK MOSNTER. BATTLE SYSTEM IS CONFUSING."

(Hydlide)

or I always like the Ultima ones

'THE GRAPHICS SUCK. I HAVE TO TALK TO PEOPLE? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? THE SPELLS MAKE NO SENSE. FINAL FANTASY IS BETTER"

Pongs dumb. It sucks. Its got no music, the graphics suck, and tennis for Wii is better.

oh wait, thats not true. Comparing pong to wii is stupid.None of which, are mine. And don't talk shit about Ultima, Hydlidian! :p

Richter Belmount

03-10-2010, 02:16 AM

'THE GRAPHICS SUCK. I HAVE TO TALK TO PEOPLE? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? THE SPELLS MAKE NO SENSE. FINAL FANTASY IS BETTER AND HYDLIDE SUCKS!"

Enough said thank you for stating that

''Final fantasy is better and hydlide sucks!'' - Arkhan March 9 2010

Aussie2B

03-10-2010, 02:42 AM

Hey, I just thought of something, what if Arkhan is the guy that was digitized as the hero in Virtual Hydlide? It's the only possible explanation.

kupomogli

03-10-2010, 02:48 AM

I still like Pong and Asteroids even though those came out way before I was born. Games are played for 2 reasons. Either it's a good game so people will enjoy playing it, or it's a bad game but still gets played at the time because that was the best that was available so people had to settle for it until something better came along. 20 years later only the good games still get played.

I never thought of it this way but I agree.

First off, Asteroids is awesome. Same thing with Missile Command, Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Jungle Hunt, Frogger, etc.

The games have terrible graphics, except Jungle Hunt which has very good graphics atleast on arcade, and not bad at all for the Atari. However, these games are still very playable even to this day. As technology advanced, there are obviously games I would like to play more than these though.

Castlevania, and Final Fantasy are the two games I play the most though. Even Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together and Brigandine get played less and those are my two favorite games. So advancing technology doesn't have too much to do with how games have aged.

Hydlide has aged somewhat well. I still say that it would be a far better game if every music track in the game was replaced by First Step Towards Wars and the character sprite was edited to look like Adol. Maybe I could do a romhacking project. Rename the game HydYs.

Daria

03-10-2010, 10:55 AM

It's like the little twerps in BttF that say Wild Gunman is a babys toy.

That was Elijah Wood /useless trivia

And age has nothing to do with Hydlide's Obtuse sense of WTF to do. Game was baffling even in the 80's.

And for the record I'm normally cool with the natural evolution of conversation in a thread. But you get Zoltor and Arkhan together in a thread and it goes straight to hell. Zoltor's amusingly tar-tar on his own but together they are something altogether amazing. I thought more people were annoyed by this, maybe it really is just me then.

TonyTheTiger

03-10-2010, 11:48 AM

And age has nothing to do with Hydlide's Obtuse sense of WTF to do. Game was baffling even in the 80's.

For some reason that was a strangely common trend in games back then, particularly PC adventure games. Lots of times you either had to pick up on a clue only Batman could figure out or apply real world knowledge outside the scope of what you're given within the game itself. The alternative was always just not being told much of anything and left to wander aimlessly until you stumble on something to do.

I'm personally glad that trend is over and done with for the most part. It always struck me, even back then, as an artificial way to lengthen the game by wasting my time. I hate SaGa Frontier, for example, because it feels like a throwback to those days of "ok, now what?"

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 01:29 PM

That's not the issue. You ignored the post directly above yours that spelled it out rather well. There are many games pre-'85 I like, still play, and would personally consider great games even today. So, you see, there is no new standard directly to the era of the games... Just the games themselves

Nah I didn't ignore it :). what I said was directed that-a-way too.

I guess I have some strange mannerism to play games with the era of release in mind. It might explain why I like alot of games from before my time (im only 21) that a lot of people think suck.

None of which, are mine. And don't talk shit about Ultima, Hydlidian! :p

hey man, Im not talkin shit about Ultima :D. I like Ultima way more than I like Hydlide. Even Ultima : Exodus, which is basically sitting next to Hydlide on the "NES games that blow" chart.

just repeatin what I hear as far as complaints.

Hydlidian. I like that. Call me that more often. :D

And age has nothing to do with Hydlide's Obtuse sense of WTF to do. Game was baffling even in the 80's.

Did you have the manual? Like all 80s adventure games from the land of computers, the manual was basically mandatory. It's barely even a confusion if you have that, or at least have a general overview of "what to do".

If you don't know what you are doing, haven't been told what you need to do, and don't have the thing telling you these things. It's not really the games fault. I mean the manual literally shows every item and gives enough of a description that you should be able to figure out what to do.

I also don't really want to hear the "well i rented it" or "it didnt come with one" or whatever excuses. Moot point. I bet if half of the haters had the manual like RIGHT NOW and were sat down in front of the game, theyd complete it with no issues, and go "oh that was a joke".

If they got THROUGH the game all the way, and THEN said "it was retarded", fair enough.

Most people that complain get killed by wasps in the trees a screen away from the start, or get killed by slimes ON screen 1, or die while walking around the graveyard, and never try the game again. Hardly giving the game a fair chance.

Also if you map the screens out, you'll quickly see that the overworld map of Hydlide is tiny as hell, wraps around, and leaves a kindergarten level of exploration to be had. Its the "Adventure 2600" of Japan, more or less.

So, Obtuse? No.

And for the record I'm normally cool with the natural evolution of conversation in a thread. But you get Zoltor and Arkhan together in a thread and it goes straight to hell. Zoltor's amusingly tar-tar on his own but together they are something altogether amazing. I thought more people were annoyed by this, maybe it really is just me then.

annoyed by what? valid / reasonable debates? Points/opinions on things stated with reasons to back them up? I've not been aware of threads going "straight to hell". If you don't like the current discussion, fine, but If more people than "me and zoltor" are involved, it hasn't exactly gone "straight to hell", its just diverged into something YOU don't like.

What, are people supposed to just keep quiet and not debate things on the off chance someones going to think the threads gone to hell or is annoyed by what their saying? Welcome to the public world. People are going to counter-argue and defend games you and others hate on. If you think thats annoying, yikes.

The only thing annoying is calling other posters "tar-tar" in a holier than thou tone.

Steven

03-10-2010, 01:38 PM

it doesn't matter if its opinionated. Holding games to newer standards is dumb. What the hell is that? The "travel forward in time" clause of game design?

Very, VERY true. I always form my opinions on a game based on the time of its release, and the games released before it in its genre. For example, is it fair to compare Power Moves (Jan '93) to the "killer app" that was Killer Instinct (August 95) ? Of course not. To judge Power Moves based on what came after it does an injustice to the people who made the game.

But again, everyone's opinion is their own. We all have different ways of rating/judging a game. I just think this line of thinking makes the most sense... judging a game for its release date and not by similar games released years and years later. But again it's one of those arguments that could go on and on for all time. I won't get into a pissing match about which "philosophy" is better. I just know what works for me personally and stick to it.

j_factor

03-10-2010, 01:40 PM

How does a game "not aging well" make it suck. That's unfair to the game.

Saying a game "hasn't aged well" is just a nice way of saying it was never good.

Steven

03-10-2010, 01:44 PM

Saying a game "hasn't aged well" is just a nice way of saying it was never good.

GEN Altered Beast was GOOD TO BEGIN WITH!! :p

(hmmm, maybe not so much..)

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 01:49 PM

Man seems like Hydlide, and Ultima series must be THE benchmarks as they are damn near the maingames brought up regularly.

A similar debate happened with Ark on the GLORIUS clunky game that is China Warrior/The Kung Fu for PCE/TG. Sure the game was impressive sprite size wise, etc in teh late 80's...still doesn't change the fact it's a fairly clunky game, and hasn't aged well.

"MAN. WE BETTER PLAN THIS GAME OUT WITH PEOPLE 20 YEARS FROM NOW IN MIND. THEY WILL BE USED TO NEWER, BETTER TECHNOLOGY."

A bit overdoing it eh? While no game maker is going to magically guess what will be there technology/game wise in 20 years...do you honestly think they sat there "YES!!! these games are the best out there, and will stand the test of time"? If they did many of the "clasics" that have aged poorly would have STAYED the best out there.

Is Xevious still a OMG game because it started certain shooter trends (firsts)? Just because a game does something first/new/whatever doesn't mean that matters 20 years latter.

Aussie2B

03-10-2010, 02:22 PM

Saying a game "hasn't aged well" is just a nice way of saying it was never good.

Very true. I've always thought the concept that a game could get worse with time is BS. A game is static. For all eternity it's going to remain exactly the same, down to the last 0 or 1 bit, as the day it launched. The only thing that changes is people's perspectives. If someone thinks a game was good in the past but isn't now, they're either biased against older games or they blinded themselves to the true reality of the game at launch. It's not the game's nor time's fault if someone buys into a bunch of hype at release. Good artistic design will always be appealing. Good composition will always be pleasant to listen to. Good gameplay design will always be fun. This things are true regardless of the technology, so no amount of time can change these. Time can, however, reveal when those weren't present in the first place but people didn't notice because they were too busy buying into some gimmick or technological feat.

Icarus Moonsight

03-10-2010, 02:23 PM

Did you have the manual?

*facepalm*

Oh, no... Not again...

http://crudedude.net/gorehistory/alienchest.JPG

J_factor, Aussie: True, the game doesn't get better or worse over time, but a users perspective does change over time. And if you don't have a past with an old game to compare your current experiences to, it tends to be an even harder sell for most.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 04:34 PM

Man seems like Hydlide, and Ultima series must be THE benchmarks as they are damn near the maingames brought up regularly.

Hydlide is some kind of punchline in the western (mainly NA) gaming world.

Alot of the European computer users dig the game (8.0 rating on some sites :)). So its fair to keep bringing it up as the benchmark :D. Wonder what the difference is to them for them to enjoy the Hydlide series.

As for Ultima, eh, you could replace Ultima with Might & Magic, Wizardry or any other old PC game that was designed back in the days of the floppy. Alot of newer gamers used to Final Fantasy style games deem these style of games as trash because you NEED the manual and included readings.

Alot of those games even had journals/decoders wheels and things you needed to progress and get the full story on the game. Theres only so much old floppy disk based machines can present in game. Sometimes it was also copy protection. Can't get thru the game without the journals telling you wtfs going on if you have a pirated copy. :D

This doesn't make the games bad just because they're "hard" or "confusing" to a different audience who isn't used to having manuals and maps laid out on the desk to complete their adventure.

All of those classic western CRPGs are still regarded as classics, and anyone who thinks Ultima IV and V hasn't "aged well", is on meth. Ultima series isn't the best selling computer RPG series of all time because they sucked.

A similar debate happened with Ark on the GLORIUS clunky game that is China Warrior/The Kung Fu for PCE/TG. Sure the game was impressive sprite size wise, etc in teh late 80's...still doesn't change the fact it's a fairly clunky game, and hasn't aged well.

Yeah, I defended China Warrior. So? Whats your point? Theres nothing wrong with china warrior. It was clunky then, and clunky now. Bashing it based off clunkiness doesn't make the entire game garbage. It's still a fun, reflexive, almost rhythmic arcade "punch stuff in the face" game.

Its perfectly fun and playable either way. Its a moot point though. Its like Altered Beast on Genesis. Some people will still think its a kickass game, and others will go "bah its all clunky and didn't age well" . Oh well. I like defending games that don't deserve all the heavy hate.

"MAN. WE BETTER PLAN THIS GAME OUT WITH PEOPLE 20 YEARS FROM NOW IN MIND. THEY WILL BE USED TO NEWER, BETTER TECHNOLOGY."

A bit overdoing it eh? While no game maker is going to magically guess what will be there technology/game wise in 20 years...do you honestly think they sat there "YES!!! these games are the best out there, and will stand the test of time"? If they did many of the "clasics" that have aged poorly would have STAYED the best out there.

Is Xevious still a OMG game because it started certain shooter trends (firsts)? Just because a game does something first/new/whatever doesn't mean that matters 20 years latter.

overdoing? Yes! It is the best way to get the point across that a specific view is kind of senseless...at least as far as I'm concerned :) I doubt anyone sits and says the games they make are going to stand the test of time. If the designers didn't plan for the test of time, why should gamers judge the test of time? Seems kinda senseless yeah? If you enjoyed the game in the 80s and don't enjoy it anymore because better toys came along...... the games still the same, so maybe YOU didn't age well. :D

Kinda like Puff the Magic Dragon.

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 04:46 PM

"Hydlide is some kind of punchline in the western (mainly NA) gaming world."

Not every thread needs Hydlide, and Ultima brought in..seems a one (or 2) trick pony.

As for China Warrior, yes you defended it, but try and keep it real. You were OMG shocked at the hate it gets, etc. Only thing that game had going for it at the time (and now) was impressive sprite size.

"overdoing? Yes! It is the best way to get the point across that a specific view is kind of senseless"

Unless it's done ALL THE TIME, and looses it's affect ;)

"the games still the same, so maybe YOU didn't age well"

Maybe the "wonderment of youth", or in some cases game X was one of the only/only of it's type around finally wore off.

kupomogli

03-10-2010, 04:52 PM

Very true. I've always thought the concept that a game could get worse with time is BS. A game is static.

Take the original Dragon Warrior. It was an awesome game solely because no other games were out there at the time. Nearly every other RPG that was released brought the same experience and outdid the game 100 fold. Hence it aged terribly. It got worse with age due to it was no longer the only game of its kind and we received release after release of good games in the same genre.

So I like how Gameguy said it. Either it's a good game so people will enjoy playing it, or it's a bad game but still gets played at the time because that was the best that was available so people had to settle for it until something better came along. 20 years later only the good games still get played.

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 04:54 PM

Arkhan is my hero. Finally someone else who appreciates the simplicity of China Warrior :D I bet a million buck Nectarsis can't beat it.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 04:56 PM

"Hydlide is some kind of punchline in the western (mainly NA) gaming world."

Not every thread needs Hydlide, and Ultima brought in..seems a one (or 2) trick pony.

Everything everywhere needs Hydlide. I don't think I bring up Ultima that much.

As for China Warrior, yes you defended it, but try and keep it real. You were OMG shocked at the hate it gets, etc. Only thing that game had going for it at the time (and now) was impressive sprite size.

Says you. The tunes man. That music is thumpin! There were 30-40 people messing with it at a show in october, and a crowd gathered. luls ensued. Seems like it musta been a fun time.

"overdoing? Yes! It is the best way to get the point across that a specific view is kind of senseless"

Unless it's done ALL THE TIME, and looses it's affect ;)

Its not done all the time. You just have selective reading or something. Where are you when its not being done? :)

"the games still the same, so maybe YOU didn't age well"

Maybe the "wonderment of youth", or in some cases game X was one of the only/only of it's type around finally wore off.

That, on a forum about nostalgic retrogaming. :whip:

TonyTheTiger

03-10-2010, 05:01 PM

Take the original Dragon Warrior. It was an awesome game solely because no other games were out there at the time. Nearly every other RPG that was released brought the same experience and outdid the game 100 fold. Hence it aged terribly. It got worse with age due to it was no longer the only game of its kind and we received release after release of good games in the same genre.

It didn't get worse with age. It was always pretty barebones and shitty. It did well because that was the best there was at the time. Hell, the original Final Fantasy isn't exactly something special, either. But it was better than Dragon Warrior. You could say people didn't know any better but I prefer to put a positive spin on it and say people tend to make the best of what they're given.

Saying something hasn't aged well is just a euphamism for "in my day we didn't have X and Y! We had Z and we were thankful, damn it!"

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:03 PM

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 05:08 PM

Back to trolling eh Nin? Put me back on ignore it was more peaceful.

You just mad Arkhan is pwning you left and right and rightful so. As for "trolling" all I said is the fact that you can't beat China Warrior. You called the game clunky so that means you are inadequate at the game. That is laziness.

pseudonym

03-10-2010, 05:09 PM

He's hardly "pwning" anyone, and you're not adding anything to the convo either. Also, he doesn't like a game, so naturally that means he sucks at it. Makes perfect sense... :angel::shameful:

tom

03-10-2010, 05:10 PM

I'm playing Sudeki at the mo, so there...

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:11 PM

You just mad Arkhan is pwning you left and right and rightful so. As for "trolling" all I said is the fact that you can't beat China Warrior. You called the game clunky so that means you are inadequate at the game. That is laziness.

LOL hardly pwning...it's called debate look it up. Calling a game clunky means someones inadequate?? LOL yeah maybe the developers. Your lack of common sense, now THAT'S laziness.

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 05:11 PM

you're not adding anything to convo either.

I can still play Dragon Warrior 1 for NES like it is 1989. Happy now?

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:12 PM

He's hardly "pwning" (I hate that word) anyone, and you're not adding anything to convo either.

There you go Ninny...you were just "pwned" :above me:

I will ad Ark the music is decent, not supremely memorable or anything, but not bad.

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 05:15 PM

LOL hardly pwning...it's called debate look it up. Calling a game clunky means someones inadequate?? LOL yeah maybe the developers. Your lack of common sense, now THAT'S laziness.

It may be a debate but seriously Arkhan has you in a headlock and giving you atomic noogies repeatedly. So you blame Hudson for you inadequate gaming skills? Thats rich lol

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 05:16 PM

Back to trolling eh Nin? Put me back on ignore it was more peaceful.

Ark...nostalgia is necessary to be into retro gaming?

"There were 30-40 people messing with it at a show in october, and a crowd gathered. luls ensued. Seems like it musta been a fun time."

A semi obscure game draws a crowd..and luls that may have at least in part due to drunk monks stumbling into you, or those damn flying potatoes :P

Ignore is for sissies!

Nostalgia is half of the retro gaming thing. Theres the nostalgics, and the youngertypes that are like WOW old things that dont blow.

and alot of the people who were watching China Warrior knew what it was... :D

I once talked to a guy who thought it was great that he got to name his character in an RPG (CRPG days). It was the best thing ever, and even if the game isnt great today, its still fun and holds some merit. He said.

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:17 PM

It may be a debate but seriously Arkhan has you in a headlock and giving you atomic noogies repeatedly. So you blame Hudson for you inadequate gaming skills? Thats rich lol

Keep trying you MAY eventually make a valid point somewhere. Claiming anyone calling a game clunky has ANY bearing on their "skills' is one of the more absurd things you've come up with.

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 05:22 PM

Keep trying you MAY eventually make a valid point somewhere. Claiming anyone calling a game clunky has ANY bearing on their "skills' is one of the more absurd things you've come up with.

The way you put it though is that you blame THE GAME for your subpar gaming skills which to you = SUCKY GAME. You are a quitter. I see it from your text.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 05:22 PM

I encourage all the china warrior haters and lovers alike to jack the woofer up while playing.

If you don't start bobbin your head along to the beat, I feel sorry for you. :)

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:25 PM

The way you put it though is that you blame THE GAME for your subpar gaming skills which to you = SUCKY GAME. You are a quitter. I see it from your text.

I said the game is clunky..didn't even infer gaming skills. Reading IS Fundamental.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 05:27 PM

For what it's worth, China Warrior has an almost strategic way of playing.

There are ways to handle every pattern of enemies easily,

and the boss battles require more then just holding turbo button and punching until you win.

It LOOKS a bit clunky, but I've found the control is as responsive as you would expect. You changing kung-fu footing while you step forward/backwards.

:D

Reminds me of that uh..... Flying Dragon game on NES

Nintega Grafx-16

03-10-2010, 05:28 PM

I said the game is clunky..didn't even infer gaming skills. Reading IS Fundamental.

True but the imaginary "clunkiness" does play a part in your gaming skills. Thinking IS Fundamental.

Arasoi

03-10-2010, 05:29 PM

Hydlide has it's place in the evolution of games in it's particular genre.

It aged poorly. As did Dragon Slayer. I guess a "western" equivilant to Dragon Slayer would be Nethack, in terms of significance to gaming in the respective release regions. Hydlide was meant to be an improvement to Dragon Slayer.

The Japanese computer gaming era with the PC88 and 98 has it's own intricate and isolated history. Not everyone is required to be interested in it anyway.

And yeah, the NES Hydlide specifically does suck. It was released well after it's gameplay had anything to offer over here. But there isnt much to be done about that.

.02

nectarsis

03-10-2010, 05:35 PM

True but the imaginary "clunkiness" does play a part in your gaming skills. Thinking IS Fundamental.

Where did I say "this game is so clunky it's unplayable, man I can't even get off the 2nd level"? Oh wait you ASSUME you know what I was saying (per the norm). Oh and I'm far from the only one that comment of it's stiff gameplay ;)

What was that about thinking?

pseudonym

03-10-2010, 05:47 PM

That's kind of what I've been thinking too. It may have been innovative and the first to do whatever, but if it's aged poorly due to some clunky gameplay (ie: Hydlide) and changed perspective on what a "good" game is, there's nothing more you can really say. Every game has it's fans and apologists though, I still enjoy Deadly Towers and Super Pitfall myself. I've defended them before.

Oddly, how many times has this thread been derailed now? Three times by my count.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 06:30 PM

tom

03-10-2010, 07:03 PM

In that regard (Hydlide being clunky), it's clunkier on the NES than on the MSX, which is odd to say the least.

You move quite fluidly and plow into things alot easier on the MSX than on the NES. Strange.

>>>Ever read on Wiki?: ' The game (Hydlide) is notable for being one of the first ever console role-playing games'
They (whoever wrote that article) never played any Intellivision AD&D obviously. Or my favorite, VCS DragonStomper.

Kitsune Sniper

03-10-2010, 07:15 PM

It's Wikipedia. Lots of people there don't know shit about the articles they're supposedly "improving."

Sonicwolf

03-10-2010, 07:21 PM

It's Wikipedia. Lots of people there don't know shit about the articles they're supposedly "improving."

Thank god for the wonder of citations... Although, has anyone noticed the incredible amount of facts on Wikipedia that lack citations... and are never fixed? LOL

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 07:25 PM

Thank god for the wonder of citations... Although, has anyone noticed the incredible amount of facts on Wikipedia that lack citations... and are never fixed? LOL

Thats because theyre too busy copy pastaing it onto forums to fix it :)

In all seriousness though, yeah, Hydlide isn't the first console RPG. The firstish of its kind in Japan for sure though (with shit like DSlayer predating it).

Ultima predates everything. AKALABETH FTW.

Now that, is a game that requires putting on your way-back-machine helmet.

has anyone played it? Pretty fun.

TonyTheTiger

03-10-2010, 07:30 PM

I'm playing Sudeki at the mo, so there...

I'm sorry.

Ok, it's not the worst game ever, and playing as Alish or Elco is actually pretty fun, but if there's any Xbox game that screams wasted potential, that has to be it.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 07:40 PM

Yknow what I just remembered.

Swordquest.

game series fkin rules. Suck on that, you manual-less fools!

Rickstilwell1

03-10-2010, 07:41 PM

Thank god for the wonder of citations... Although, has anyone noticed the incredible amount of facts on Wikipedia that lack citations... and are never fixed? LOL

One time I erased a wikipedia remark that said "in Sonic Pocket Adventure you could f--k Tails in the a$$ with Sonic's d--k due to a programming f--k up by Dimps."

It made me laugh but it annoyed me enough to go ahead and erase the inappropriate Wikipedia claim.

TonyTheTiger

03-10-2010, 07:42 PM

Why would you erase something like that? Seriously.

kupomogli

03-10-2010, 08:31 PM

Hell, the original Final Fantasy isn't exactly something special, either.

Hey :(. That's one of my favorite RPGs. Aside from a few flaws in combat it's near perfect.

Rickstilwell1

03-10-2010, 08:55 PM

Hey :(. That's one of my favorite RPGs. Aside from a few flaws in combat it's near perfect.

The perfection of the game itself really shows up in the remakes. The combat flaws are completely fixed and about everything else is in the same location.

While the original three NES FF games seem too slow for me in their original state, I prefer using an emulator with 2x gameplay speed. Then they end up being even more enjoyable than the NES Dragon Warriors as they allow for much more character customization. I beat all three of them this way.

Without this minor speedup I would choose the Dragon Warriors over FF simply because they are more simplistic and take less time to choose actions on the real system. Still I think Dragon Warrior 2 is really dragged out as you have to fight monsters all day for probably a few days to make progress in the last world map area before the final dungeon. I still can't bring myself to do that and finish the game.

kupomogli

03-10-2010, 09:20 PM

FF1 really doesn't need a speed up. Just put the response rate on 9 and the game goes by quickly.

FF3 though. Holy hell it takes a long time for a single turn to go by, horrid equip screen, pretty useless class system, boring dungeons, the music is so-so, and more grinding in it than the original Dragon Warrior. I think the game blows.

Also, while they fix the combat flaws FF1 had, they messed up elsewhere. On Dawn of Souls and Anniversary, magic is now a pool instead of a fixed level supply. Origins fixes all the flaws and retains the same magic type as the original but there are the load times. So I still think the original is the best.

Arkhan

03-10-2010, 09:26 PM

as weird as it sounds, FF1 seems to have one of the more adventurery adventures.

Its less drama, more adventure.

Drama drama drama drama, is what happened from there on out.

FFIV was the perfect blend IMO

Aussie2B

03-10-2010, 11:01 PM

I'd play the first Dragon Warrior over the first Final Fantasy any day. In fact, I did so, from beginning to end for the first time ever in each, in relatively recent years - about a decade ago for Dragon Warrior and around five years ago for Final Fantasy, so my memories are fairly fresh and not tainted by nostalgia. I appreciate Dragon Warrior because it gets right down to the point of it, no nonsense. You're one guy, all by yourself, and you're instantly thrown into this big dangerous world to explore. Final Fantasy feels like it straddles the line, almost trying to be a bit more story-focused but having such a thin story that it doesn't work. Dragon Warrior also gives me more of a feel of a distinct style and atmosphere. Final Fantasy just feels like generic, bleh fantasy setting.

As for game's aging, again I would say that even if a game is new for its time, it's not the game's fault if the player buys into the hype and excitement over a new genre. That's still a form of the player blinding him/herself to the true nature of the game. If it's now assessed as being poor, it was ALWAYS poor, even if it was the first of its kind. Again, NOTHING about the game has changed. I will always hold that "It was good then but not now" as a wholly illogical statement.

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 02:52 AM

I like the gameplay of Dragon Warrior more, but the presentation of FF more.

the tilemaps of FF are way better, the tunes are better (duh :D... man the MSX FM ones especially.), and in parts the theme is better, but fuck is the game tricky to deal with.

Dragon Warrior is "tricky", but you manage one character the whole time. No chances of "dammit the White mage got jacked mid dungeon. WE ARE SCREWED! FLEE"

I really did like the later parts of FF though! Very epic. the airship, the later shrines, and the temple of fiends revisited...... that was all pretty well done.

Game has a very rough start for sure. Takes awhile to pick up and get interesting.

tom

03-11-2010, 04:08 AM

Ultima predates everything. AKALABETH FTW.

.

I got Akalabeth on CD, I think I better give it a try one day.

Actually, RPGs were already on 70s Plato system, eg dnd, Pedit5, Avatar, approx 1975......

dnd (1974):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Dnd8won.png

Aussie2B

03-11-2010, 04:33 AM

the tunes are better (duh :D... man the MSX FM ones especially.)

"Duh"? I don't care which soundtrack a person prefers, but you make it sound like Koichi Sugiyama is a nobody that couldn't possibly compete with Uematsu, to which I'd say gimme a break. Sugiyama arguably had a more illustrious career in music PRIOR to working in games than Uematsu has even at this point. I mean, the guy was composing music for 50 years prior to Dragon Quest, and he wrote the main overture of Dragon Quest in 5 minutes. He got his job with Enix simply because he wrote a fan letter to the company, and they were so shocked to receive a letter from somebody as notable as him and so impressed by his passion for games that they immediately asked if he would be willing to compose for Dragon Quest. There's a reason he gets top billing as part of the "holy trinity" of Dragon Quest staff with Yuuji Horii and Akira Toriyama. I mean, Toriyama is one of the biggest of the big in the manga world, and Sugiyama is easily on par in the realm of original composition in Japan. He's also classically trained, so Uematsu could only dream of having his technical abilities. In fact, Sugiyama is a big inspiration of Uematsu's.

Kid Fenris

03-11-2010, 02:19 PM

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 04:59 PM

"Duh"? I don't care which soundtrack a person prefers, but you make it sound like Koichi Sugiyama is a nobody that couldn't possibly compete with Uematsu, to which I'd say gimme a break. Sugiyama arguably had a more illustrious career in music PRIOR to working in games than Uematsu has even at this point. I mean, the guy was composing music for 50 years prior to Dragon Quest, and he wrote the main overture of Dragon Quest in 5 minutes. He got his job with Enix simply because he wrote a fan letter to the company, and they were so shocked to receive a letter from somebody as notable as him and so impressed by his passion for games that they immediately asked if he would be willing to compose for Dragon Quest. There's a reason he gets top billing as part of the "holy trinity" of Dragon Quest staff with Yuuji Horii and Akira Toriyama. I mean, Toriyama is one of the biggest of the big in the manga world, and Sugiyama is easily on par in the realm of original composition in Japan. He's also classically trained, so Uematsu could only dream of having his technical abilities. In fact, Sugiyama is a big inspiration of Uematsu's..
*eye roll* *yawn*

ok spare me the lecture on stuff I already knew. Its old news. All I meant by "duh" was, FF is newer and in general, has a more elaborate, better sounding soundtrack. Vivaldi on an Atari 2600 is going to sound like ass even if it's Vivaldi.

I meant THAT specific FF vs THAT specific DQ. It has dick to do with who composed what. Deciding which of those two is a better composer is like deciding if you like someones left or right tit more. Either way you want to roll around in the middle of them.

Both have proven themselves to be amazing composers and the whole "classically trained" and "technical abilities" statement only goes so far. Yes Sugiyama is classically trained and amazing at what he does, but that doesn't mean someone who is untrained can't develop the same technical abilities over time through practice/experience rather than formal training. I mean, Uematsu's work kind of proves that. You forget that alot of the great composers were the innovative chaps that established what was understood as "classically trainable". Who trained them? O_O

and in fact, there are some classically trained people I know who are downright retarded at music and can only play back what they are given on paper with no understanding of how things go together or what it is they're doing. Its robotic.

There are more songs, longer songs, and better instrumentation usage in FF vs. DQ. Especially on MSX. FM (FF) vs DQ (PSG). A no brainer. More bang for your buck.

DQ would have been pretty killer with FM though. Especially the introduction.

Richter Belmount

03-11-2010, 05:00 PM

The truth hurts I know , knowing that Hydlide sucks a fat mans balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3RWYN1SWc lol this could also be arkhan talking about hydlide

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 05:02 PM

I got Akalabeth on CD, I think I better give it a try one day.

its fun.

and, hmm, Interesting game. :D

is it any good?

Kitsune Sniper

03-11-2010, 05:27 PM

The truth hurts I know , knowing that Hydlide sucks a fat mans balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3RWYN1SWc lol this could also be arkhan talking about hydlide

...

I couldn't even watch the video after that fat kid said "furries". AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH.

Aussie2B

03-11-2010, 05:53 PM

Koichi Sugiyama also has revolting political opinions (http://studyofenglish.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/paid-advertisement-concerning-%E2%80%9Ccomfort-women%E2%80%9D-run-in-the-washington-post/). If you buy Dragon Quest games new, you are indirectly supporting his efforts to deny Japan's World War II atrocities.

Yeah, I know. I almost mentioned that it my post, but I didn't feel it was relevant. I'm not about to deny someone their talents just because of their unrelated views and actions. I mean, Hitler was a great orator, there's no denying that. Although that's not a fair comparison because while I wouldn't support Hitler in any way, Sugiyama is just an elderly man with crackpot personal views. I don't believe for one second that his personal views will have any impact on Japan's stance on anything, so I see no reason to boycott his works when his views will never amount to anything. Plus I can't even blame him that much. He's just a product of his upbringing. He was a preteen/teen during WWII, and like practically any other Japanese person back then, I'm sure he was extremely nationalist and viewed his country as doing no wrong. Some felt differently after the war, but it's only natural to expect many to cling to those views to some extent. I mean, it's not uncommon for the grandparents of our generation to be bigoted to some extent in one way or another, so should all of us stop loving and supporting our grandparents? Heck, pretty much every person in existence has at least one view that another person would find objectionable, so as long as those views aren't resulting in tangible harm, I don't really care.

All I meant by "duh" was, FF is newer and in general, has a more elaborate, better sounding soundtrack.

That doesn't make any sense. The only way the soundtrack could be more elaborate is either through the composition or through using more sound channels. Final Fantasy doesn't have any extra sound channels (pretty rare among NES/Famicom games), and when you look purely at composition, regardless of what you prefer, Sugiyama makes more complex songs. Uematsu lacks the ability to make music as elaborate as guys like Sugiyama, Mitsuda, Koshiro, Sakimoto, etc. Uematsu excels at making simplistic, catchy music. I'm not trying to knock against him because not all music needs to be elaborate, but it's the reality of the matter. Uematsu is basically the pop of game music.

tom

03-11-2010, 05:55 PM

its fun.

and, hmm, Interesting game. :D

is it any good?

Dont say you don't know what Plato was?

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 05:57 PM

The truth hurts I know , knowing that Hydlide sucks a fat mans balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3RWYN1SWc lol this could also be arkhan talking about hydlide

dude youre like, a page behind in discussion lol. hydlides come and gone.

and whoa, that kids a tool. I wonder what his grampa in the back thinks. What I said about HL wasn't nearly that obnoxious. :D

Dont say you don't know what Plato was?

the game, not plato.

I did a report on plato in school :D

did you play it? Or just grab a screenie? Im too young to have gotten to be around that beast.

That doesn't make any sense. The only way the soundtrack could be more elaborate is either through the composition or through using more sound channels. Final Fantasy doesn't have any extra sound channels (pretty rare among NES/Famicom games), and when you look purely at composition, regardless of what you prefer, Sugiyama makes more complex songs. Uematsu lacks the ability to make music as elaborate as guys like Sugiyama, Mitsuda, Koshiro, Sakimoto, etc. Uematsu excels at making simplistic, catchy music. I'm not trying to knock against him because not all music needs to be elaborate, but it's the reality of the matter. Uematsu is basically the pop of game music.

Elaborate can also mean the instrumentation. Theres a wider range of sounds going on in FF than in DQ. Though most of that is the sound programmer's job not the actual composer.

Compare the battle songs. FF clearly has a more involved song. The songs in DQ1 are not exactly long, involved, or layered. It is clear that Uematsu used his "played with band" experience to influence his music, while Sugiyama just sat in front of a piano and composed some little ditties.

If you listen, most , if not all, of DQ1 songs can be done with two hands at a piano and sound just like they do in game. Two hands are never more complex than a full band influence as far as layered sounds. There is little classical orchestra/symphony influence in any of the DQ1 songs. Just a piano. The full on orchestral excitement didnt arrive til later.

Saying either of them lacks the ability to do anything is ignorant as fuck anyways. What is your musical background? Pop of game music? lol. man. name dropping composers doesn't make you know any more of what you are even talking about.

To say Uematsu can't make songs of the caliber of Sugiyama is an insult to music as a whole. Now stop arguing about it and listen to/enjoy the music instead of waving bullshit name drops and nonsense around.

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 05:59 PM

...^^^

tom

03-11-2010, 06:00 PM

Good answer, but hey, 1974 I was playing around with girls, not with computers

pseudonym

03-11-2010, 06:16 PM

Good answer, but hey, 1974 I was playing around with girls, not with computers

What are these "girls" you speak of?

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 06:18 PM

What are these "girls" you speak of?

yeah, I never heard of that game. Must have been sold out, or a Europe only release.

is it any good?

Richter Belmount

03-11-2010, 06:18 PM

Kochi sugiyama is hitler?

Arkhan

03-11-2010, 06:24 PM

Kochi sugiyama is hitler?

you didnt know? WW2 ended and hitler morphed into a Japanese man!

Duhhhhhhhh

Whatd they teach you in school.

TonyTheTiger

03-11-2010, 06:38 PM

The truth hurts I know , knowing that Hydlide sucks a fat mans balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3RWYN1SWc lol this could also be arkhan talking about hydlide

I want my soul back, Mr. Belmount.

Kid Fenris

03-11-2010, 07:01 PM

I don't believe for one second that his personal views will have any impact on Japan's stance on anything,

Sugiyama belongs to a group of educators, entertainers, politicians, and other public figures which actively encourages the youth of Japan to deny the nation's responsibility for the Nanking Massacre and other war crimes. However minor, his views are most certainly contributing to Japan's stance on this issue.

I mean, it's not uncommon for the grandparents of our generation to be bigoted to some extent in one way or another, so should all of us stop loving and supporting our grandparents?

This is not your grandpa referring to the black kid next door as a "moon cricket." This is your grandpa telling you that the Holocaust never happened.