Atari 2600 Air Raid box found

[tom]

You guys still going on about being a fake...No VCS knowledge on your part then.....

[Zap!]

Albert (AA) saw the box first hand. I'd take his word over most anyone on Atari matters.

He can be fooled too. He did say it "looked" authentic. The problem is, there is no other box to compare it to. Albert has not seen any other.

With that said, I am in no way saying it was faked. It's possible, just unlikely.

One more thing: Should the new owner carbon date this thing to see if it matches around the year of the game? If he does, and it dates to like 2009, can the seller go to jail?

[TonyTheTiger]

They use carbon dating to gauge the approximate age of fossils that are thousands of years old. It's a process that probably costs a small fortune. Besides, I don't think carbon dating works that way. It's not accurate enough to tell whether something is 30 years old or not.

[baraka]

They use carbon dating to gauge the approximate age of fossils that are thousands of years old. It's a process that probably costs a small fortune. Besides, I don't think carbon dating works that way. It's not accurate enough to tell whether something is 30 years old or not.

very true but i think he was joking

[TonyTheTiger]

Probably. But considering how much drama a cardboard box has been causing over the last week who can tell anymore?

[baraka]

Probably. But considering how much drama a cardboard box has been causing over the last week who can tell anymore?

good point

[Swamperon]

They use carbon dating to gauge the approximate age of fossils that are thousands of years old. It's a process that probably costs a small fortune. Besides, I don't think carbon dating works that way. It's not accurate enough to tell whether something is 30 years old or not.

heh, quite right. I'm pretty sure private use of carbon dating isn't cheap. Though there will be some way of being able to date the box. Then again, this would probably require removing a piece of the box in some way for analysis, which no collector would ever do! ;)

[TonyTheTiger]

Look, if people who see old Atari boxes every goddamn day are saying it's legit then getting the thing professionally dated (I can't even believe I'm seriously talking about this) would be absurd. First, professional dating is not an exact science. I'd imagine 30 years is well within the margin of error for such things. Second, somebody already considers it real enough to fork over the cost of a Honda Civic. At this point, talking about whether or not it's a forgery is moot. It's worth $30,000+. The community has spoken.

Real or fake, it's real. If you catch my drift.

[tom]

Look, if people who see old Atari boxes every goddamn day are saying it's legit then getting the thing professionally dated (I can't even believe I'm seriously talking about this) would be absurd. First, professional dating is not an exact science. I'd imagine 30 years is well within the margin of error for such things. Second, somebody already considers it real enough to fork over the cost of a Honda Civic. At this point, talking about whether or not it's a forgery is moot. It's worth $30,000+. The community has spoken.

Real or fake, it's real. If you catch my drift.

Yep..second that

[TonyTheTiger]

It's the same thing as when people ask whether we can be sure sealed games are really legit or just really convincing reseals. Sure, they could be. There could be a Super Mario World in that sealed Chrono Trigger box. But if you believe it's legit, if any potential buyer believes it's legit, then it's legit, even if it's not. There's no practical difference between the real thing and a super forgery at that point. So there's really no use worrying about it. Take solace in the fact that the odds of it being fake are exceedingly slim. But it's obviously impossible to give a 100% guarantee.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

I will say that they can date the plastic on a sealed game to tell whether or not the seal is real. They can date it to within the year it was manufactured, supposedly. As for the box...not sure.

As stated previously though, the box is legit now, whether or not it wasn't originally. Who ended up with it?
EDIT: Nevermind, found that Wonder 007 got it.

[boatofcar]

It's the same thing as when people ask whether we can be sure sealed games are really legit or just really convincing reseals. Sure, they could be. There could be a Super Mario World in that sealed Chrono Trigger box. But if you believe it's legit, if any potential buyer believes it's legit, then it's legit, even if it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

[Icarus Moonsight]

Real or fake, it's real. If you catch my drift.

At least until the waveform collapses...

[tom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

There's a cat in a sealed Chrono Trigger game box?

[allyourblood]

There's a cat in a sealed Chrono Trigger game box?

Until you open it, there both is, and isn't.

[Zap!]

I'm probably gonna get laughed at and called an idiot, but I have a legitimate question: Is there any type of x-ray machine that can see through a sealed box, so you can see what game is inside? Not sure the technology exists now to actually read the label, but it will.

[TonyTheTiger]

Doubt it. In order to read a label you need light. That's how we see. If there's no light, then you can't discern color. If you can't discern color, then you can't read a label. The pictures and text on a label is just that, color on a flat canvas. Unless there's some way to get light into a solid cardboard box you aren't going to be able to read anything.

[slapdash]

I still don't understand why it's so valuable, bootleg games or multicarts aren't worth anywhere near that much and none of them had a large print run. This game is unlicensed so it's pretty close to the same thing.

Not to pick on you, but just clarifying -- "unlicensed"? That term is meaningless in the Atari era, as before the NES, there weren't any licensing structures.

Now perhaps you mean that it may not be entirely legal for "borrowing" code from Space Jockey, and in that case, you may have a point. But let's not confuse our terms here. That would be a copyright violation, not a licensing violation.

[tom]

The Stadium Events supposed to be sold for 40k only sold for 12k approx in the end, so that makes Air Raid the highest selling video game for now (Not counting those awful competition NES/SNES/GEN carts, which were never 'official' releases anyway, they are only worthless 'multicarts').
And Air Raid is a genuine US release, not a Taiwan/Brasil knock-off or so...

[TonyTheTiger]

Not to pick on you, but just clarifying -- "unlicensed"? That term is meaningless in the Atari era, as before the NES, there weren't any licensing structures.

"Licensed" has become sort of synonymous with "authentic" or some kind of variant of the concept that separates "real" games from homebrew/fanmade ones. There's no real word that can be applied to VCS games to make that distinction so I guess "licensed/unlicensed" is the best we've got.

I think what he's getting at, and it's a pretty good argument, is that the only difference between Air Raid and a contemporary homebrew would be age. It seems pretty arbitrary that what amounts to a homebrew back then is worth a shit ton while a homebrew today is just a novelty. The way people assign value to things doesn't seem all that disciplined/consistent. It's sort of pot luck what gets the gold star.

[Rom Hunter]

IMO it also has to do with the Atari VCS era (1977-1992).

Everything released during that period counts as more 'genuine' for the serious VCS cart collector.

Edtris 2600, for example, was released in 1994 IIRC and counts as one of the first after era homebrews.

Only few were made and although it's worth some money, it doesn't come anywhere near the price of an old era homebrew.

8)

[Bojay1997]

"Licensed" has become sort of synonymous with "authentic" or some kind of variant of the concept that separates "real" games from homebrew/fanmade ones. There's no real word that can be applied to VCS games to make that distinction so I guess "licensed/unlicensed" is the best we've got.

I think what he's getting at, and it's a pretty good argument, is that the only difference between Air Raid and a contemporary homebrew would be age. It seems pretty arbitrary that what amounts to a homebrew back then is worth a shit ton while a homebrew today is just a novelty. The way people assign value to things doesn't seem all that disciplined/consistent. It's sort of pot luck what gets the gold star.

Except that a homebrew generally does not have a retail store release like Air Raid had. Admittedly, in this age of Amazon and countless on-line retailers, a homebrew could have a "retail" release if the publisher chose to do so, however, those options were far more limited in the 1980s. I agree with you that this particular item is highly overvalued, particularly since many of us don't collect what I would call "non-mainstream" games for early systems and perhaps in time, as more pop up, the auction prices will decrease.

[Gameguy]

Not to pick on you, but just clarifying -- "unlicensed"? That term is meaningless in the Atari era, as before the NES, there weren't any licensing structures.

Now perhaps you mean that it may not be entirely legal for "borrowing" code from Space Jockey, and in that case, you may have a point. But let's not confuse our terms here. That would be a copyright violation, not a licensing violation.
I'm just wondering why it's worth so much money to some people. I get people paying a lot for a game to complete their collection, but does this game really count towards a complete collection since it's unlicensed?

It's not just unlicensed for use on the Atari system, but it wasn't a licensed tie-in to something else. If a game is a licensed tie-in to a movie that wasn't officially licensed for the Atari system, I could still accept it being desired as it's official to something. This isn't tied into anything. I'm pretty sure Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre were unlicensed for the Atari, but they were licensed to be made as tie-ins to the movies. Even Pepsi Invaders was officially made for Coca-Cola, it wasn't intended to be released but it's not like some guy made it in his basement, it's a promotional game made by Coca-Cola so it's like an official game(maybe not needed for a complete collection, but I can understand why this title is desirable).

Some unlicensed games are pretty neat to have like the adult games for novelty purposes or promotional tie-in games, but they're not worth $10,000+. I see competition carts differently, those were official carts made for official events, even if they don't count as a standard release I can understand them having value because of the history associated with them.


"Licensed" has become sort of synonymous with "authentic" or some kind of variant of the concept that separates "real" games from homebrew/fanmade ones. There's no real word that can be applied to VCS games to make that distinction so I guess "licensed/unlicensed" is the best we've got.

I think what he's getting at, and it's a pretty good argument, is that the only difference between Air Raid and a contemporary homebrew would be age. It seems pretty arbitrary that what amounts to a homebrew back then is worth a shit ton while a homebrew today is just a novelty. The way people assign value to things doesn't seem all that disciplined/consistent. It's sort of pot luck what gets the gold star.
Yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at. It's not a complete bootleg as the game isn't just copied from a retail release, but it was a knockoff game made by a "company" that there's no real information about. If I understand it right, the "company" wasn't even trademarked though they claimed it was on the box. It could have been just some guy in his basement who programmed it and just had a small run manufactured which he tried to sell himself to stores. I really doubt that the print run is all that small if it actually made it to stores, why go through all that trouble to get it made if you're only going to sell around 20 copies? I would think that at least 100 copies would have been made, thought apparently the game sucked so maybe most got trashed or forgotten about.

And I have seen some pretty neat bootlegs, some were hacked with new characters or hacked in other ways, but they're not worth that much. Even completely original bootlegs like the remakes of Minish Cap and Final Fantasy VII for the famicom aren't worth that much, they are still considered bootlegs because they use characters that don't belong to them without permission.


Except that a homebrew generally does not have a retail store release like Air Raid had. Admittedly, in this age of Amazon and countless on-line retailers, a homebrew could have a "retail" release if the publisher chose to do so, however, those options were far more limited in the 1980s. I agree with you that this particular item is highly overvalued, particularly since many of us don't collect what I would call "non-mainstream" games for early systems and perhaps in time, as more pop up, the auction prices will decrease.
So does Chase the Chuckwagon not count then? It didn't have a retail release as it was only available through mail order, and it wasn't licensed for use on the Atari. I personally still consider Chase the Chuckwagon "official" as it was licensed by Purina to promote their product. If it wasn't licensed by Purina, it would be just some homebrew. It's not an official Atari 2600 game, but it's an official Purina game made for the Atari 2600. What about Atlantis II, Cakewalk, Stronghold, Video Life, or Quadrun? Those were only available through mail order too, should those count? Any homebrewer could have paid for an ad in a magazine and sold games through mail order. What makes a game official and what makes it homebrew?

Was Air Raid originally available in stores? Before this box came to light, everyone else who had the game got it used. Some guy could have been selling them at a flea market booth back then. Maybe he donated the unsold copies to that discount store for tax purposes.

[Greg2600]

This is what I brought up days ago, was this game authentic? I think it is, because of the nature of Atari game production, and it was sold in some fashion retail, and was so during the original lifespan of the system. Is it worth $31,000, no way.

[Bojay1997]

I'm just wondering why it's worth so much money to some people. I get people paying a lot for a game to complete their collection, but does this game really count towards a complete collection since it's unlicensed?

It's not just unlicensed for use on the Atari system, but it wasn't a licensed tie-in to something else. If a game is a licensed tie-in to a movie that wasn't officially licensed for the Atari system, I could still accept it being desired as it's official to something. This isn't tied into anything. I'm pretty sure Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre were unlicensed for the Atari, but they were licensed to be made as tie-ins to the movies. Even Pepsi Invaders was officially made for Coca-Cola, it wasn't intended to be released but it's not like some guy made it in his basement, it's a promotional game made by Coca-Cola so it's like an official game(maybe not needed for a complete collection, but I can understand why this title is desirable).

Some unlicensed games are pretty neat to have like the adult games for novelty purposes or promotional tie-in games, but they're not worth $10,000+. I see competition carts differently, those were official carts made for official events, even if they don't count as a standard release I can understand them having value because of the history associated with them.


Yes, that's pretty much what I was getting at. It's not a complete bootleg as the game isn't just copied from a retail release, but it was a knockoff game made by a "company" that there's no real information about. If I understand it right, the "company" wasn't even trademarked though they claimed it was on the box. It could have been just some guy in his basement who programmed it and just had a small run manufactured which he tried to sell himself to stores. I really doubt that the print run is all that small if it actually made it to stores, why go through all that trouble to get it made if you're only going to sell around 20 copies? I would think that at least 100 copies would have been made, thought apparently the game sucked so maybe most got trashed or forgotten about.

And I have seen some pretty neat bootlegs, some were hacked with new characters or hacked in other ways, but they're not worth that much. Even completely original bootlegs like the remakes of Minish Cap and Final Fantasy VII for the famicom aren't worth that much, they are still considered bootlegs because they use characters that don't belong to them without permission.


So does Chase the Chuckwagon not count then? It didn't have a retail release as it was only available through mail order, and it wasn't licensed for use on the Atari. I personally still consider Chase the Chuckwagon "official" as it was licensed by Purina to promote their product. If it wasn't licensed by Purina, it would be just some homebrew. It's not an official Atari 2600 game, but it's an official Purina game made for the Atari 2600. What about Atlantis II, Cakewalk, Stronghold, Video Life, or Quadrun? Those were only available through mail order too, should those count? Any homebrewer could have paid for an ad in a magazine and sold games through mail order. What makes a game official and what makes it homebrew?

Was Air Raid originally available in stores? Before this box came to light, everyone else who had the game got it used. Some guy could have been selling them at a flea market booth back then. Maybe he donated the unsold copies to that discount store for tax purposes.

I think you are confused about the term "licensed". As someone pointed out, after Atari lost its various lawsuits against Activision and Imagic, pretty much any company could freely create and sell games for the 2600. Just because someone happens to also "license" a character or product to include in a game doesn't necessarily make it more or less legitimate. Tengen, EA and Acclaim were initially unlicensed developers on the Sega Genesis, but still had many licensed properties in its games, including the biggest license of them all, John Madden.

Chase the Chuckwagon was not a homebrew. It was programmed and distributed by an established company and promoted widely in national magazines as a promotion to sell dog food. I would describe Air Raid as not programmed or distributed by an established company, but it did apparently have a retail release, no matter how small.

I think for my own collection, for something to be worthy of inclusion, it has to have either a retail release or distribution by an established company through established channels which I have some identification with on a nostalgia value level (mail order, branded promotion, etc...). For that reason, I don't collect contest carts, prototypes, non-major brand items like Color Dream carts, Action 52s, etc...or items like Air Raid that while purportedly distributed at retail, were created by a company that I know nothing about and therefore has no nostalgia value for me. Other people obviously disagree and certainly, whatever they include in their collections for whatever reason is none of my business.

[Flack]

I don't know that I have an official opinion yet, but I sure do have a lot of questions.

First of all, I can't believe that the authenticity of this box hasn't been questioned and/or tested more. Anyone saying that they can tell anything about the authenticity of this item based on a bunch of pictures posted on internet forums is just stupid. Historically, art critics have been fooled by fake pieces of art, archeologists have been fooled by fake historical items, hell, even cashiers get fooled by counterfeit bills every day, so just having one person look at the box for a few minutes in a public place really doesn't convince me, and it sure wouldn't be enough proof for me to pay $30k for it.

I'm sure Albert over at AA is a nice guy (I've met him in person multiple times and he's always been pleasant) but does he have any credentials in art fraud? I'm not sure running an Atari-themed website makes one an expert, sorry. To me it would be like if someone ran a Chevrolet dealership, and someone showed up with a one-of-a-kind car made by Chevy and asked the dealership owner to verify the authenticity of the car. Without any paper trail. It's just impossible.

What I don't understand is, where are all the people involved in this whole thing? I mean, the original people? Nobody anywhere has any record of this game? Somebody programmed it, somebody marketed it, somebody did the artwork ... and none of these people are still interested in video games at all? All of them are so far removed from the video game world that nobody has ever mentioned to them this game? I mean, I've talked about Air Raid to friends of mine who have no interest in video games ... shouldn't someone who remembers something have heard about this by now?

And how does a game with such a small production run end up in a store? That makes the whole thing even stranger to me now. At a minimum that means a transaction took place between two businesses. I would think you could track that down, somehow. I don't even know how, but again, before paying $30 grand, I would try. I don't know anything about this store, but are they known for buying 1 item and then selling it? I can't even imagine that.

There's just too many parts to this whole thing that don't add up for me. Why does a game with such a low production run have a box that was sold at a store, and nobody can remember anything except the one guy who bought it?

Color me unconvinced at this point.

[Gameguy]

I think you are confused about the term "licensed". As someone pointed out, after Atari lost its various lawsuits against Activision and Imagic, pretty much any company could freely create and sell games for the 2600. Just because someone happens to also "license" a character or product to include in a game doesn't necessarily make it more or less legitimate. Tengen, EA and Acclaim were initially unlicensed developers on the Sega Genesis, but still had many licensed properties in its games, including the biggest license of them all, John Madden.
I understand the difference about licensed compared to unlicensed, I'm just wondering what the main difference between unlicensed and homebrew is. Is it the size of the "company" that makes the game? Is it the year it comes out? Is it the distribution method? Are there other ties that would make it seem to be more legitimate? Several people are collecting with the intention to make a complete collection but choose to ignore homebrew titles completely, what makes a title valid to be on a list of released games instead of a separate list of homebrew titles?


Chase the Chuckwagon was not a homebrew. It was programmed and distributed by an established company and promoted widely in national magazines as a promotion to sell dog food. I would describe Air Raid as not programmed or distributed by an established company, but it did apparently have a retail release, no matter how small.
I agree that Chase the Chuckwagon wasn't a homebrew, you mentioned that bit about homebrew titles not having a retail release and I wanted to point out that it doesn't really matter as several non-homebrew games also didn't have a retail release. I was questioning what really makes a game unlicensed compared to a mere homebrew. So far with Air Raid, we only know that it was sold through a discount chain that would buy stock being cleared out cheap, it's not really the same as a regular retail release. Remember the Burger King games that came out a few years ago? Though it was originally available only through the restaurants, I bought several brand new copies at a Dollar Store that regularly buys games that are being liquidated. Should it really count that the games were available at more places than Burger King themselves? Or is it the same as buying brand new games that are donated to a thrift store like the Target donations that I hear about from the finds thread? I would think what should really matter is how the game was originally distributed, or which way it was mostly distributed. Was Air Raid mostly distributed through that discount store or was it available through some other means first?

Technically, if anyone is planning to make a homebrew title they could just send copies to the Digital Press store and it would make the title an unlicensed game rather than a homebrew, since it was available through a retail channel. Just an idea for homebrewers who'll want to make their game more valuable, send free copies to the Digital Press store and you've made your game a rare unlicensed commercial release.


I think for my own collection, for something to be worthy of inclusion, it has to have either a retail release or distribution by an established company through established channels which I have some identification with on a nostalgia value level (mail order, branded promotion, etc...). For that reason, I don't collect contest carts, prototypes, non-major brand items like Color Dream carts, Action 52s, etc...or items like Air Raid that while purportedly distributed at retail, were created by a company that I know nothing about and therefore has no nostalgia value for me. Other people obviously disagree and certainly, whatever they include in their collections for whatever reason is none of my business.
Anyone can collect what they want, I pretty much collect what I come across and enjoy having, if I don't like a game I tend to not keep it. I'm still wondering what makes a game more valuable compared to another one, it's like people started saying Air Raid was valuable just because it was hard to find so other people just agreed with it and now people just accept that Air Raid is valuable because other people said so.

[Bojay1997]

I don't know that I have an official opinion yet, but I sure do have a lot of questions.

First of all, I can't believe that the authenticity of this box hasn't been questioned and/or tested more. Anyone saying that they can tell anything about the authenticity of this item based on a bunch of pictures posted on internet forums is just stupid. Historically, art critics have been fooled by fake pieces of art, archeologists have been fooled by fake historical items, hell, even cashiers get fooled by counterfeit bills every day, so just having one person look at the box for a few minutes in a public place really doesn't convince me, and it sure wouldn't be enough proof for me to pay $30k for it.

I'm sure Albert over at AA is a nice guy (I've met him in person multiple times and he's always been pleasant) but does he have any credentials in art fraud? I'm not sure running an Atari-themed website makes one an expert, sorry. To me it would be like if someone ran a Chevrolet dealership, and someone showed up with a one-of-a-kind car made by Chevy and asked the dealership owner to verify the authenticity of the car. Without any paper trail. It's just impossible.

What I don't understand is, where are all the people involved in this whole thing? I mean, the original people? Nobody anywhere has any record of this game? Somebody programmed it, somebody marketed it, somebody did the artwork ... and none of these people are still interested in video games at all? All of them are so far removed from the video game world that nobody has ever mentioned to them this game? I mean, I've talked about Air Raid to friends of mine who have no interest in video games ... shouldn't someone who remembers something have heard about this by now?

And how does a game with such a small production run end up in a store? That makes the whole thing even stranger to me now. At a minimum that means a transaction took place between two businesses. I would think you could track that down, somehow. I don't even know how, but again, before paying $30 grand, I would try. I don't know anything about this store, but are they known for buying 1 item and then selling it? I can't even imagine that.

There's just too many parts to this whole thing that don't add up for me. Why does a game with such a low production run have a box that was sold at a store, and nobody can remember anything except the one guy who bought it?

Color me unconvinced at this point.


I think you raise a number of interesting points, but the reality is that up until this most recent auction, there just wasn't a lot of publicity about this particular game. The programmer may surface at some point or we may see a slow trickle of NIB copies as the guy tries to cash in on the newfound value of the game. On the other hand, he might be deceased or in another country far away from the websites and cable news channels covering the story. Maybe the game was programmed under contract overseas and the US distributor has long since moved on to other ventures.

I know a lot of us really are curious about the back story on this game. Maybe after it comes out someday, the consensus on its value will change. Frankly, I think the guy who bought it took a huge gamble and I can't say that I have ever wanted something enough for my collection to even consider spending a tenth of that amount on a single item. Of course, people have different priorities in life and different incomes, so perhaps $30K was no big deal to the buyer.

[Bojay1997]

I understand the difference about licensed compared to unlicensed, I'm just wondering what the main difference between unlicensed and homebrew is. Is it the size of the "company" that makes the game? Is it the year it comes out? Is it the distribution method? Are there other ties that would make it seem to be more legitimate? Several people are collecting with the intention to make a complete collection but choose to ignore homebrew titles completely, what makes a title valid to be on a list of released games instead of a separate list of homebrew titles?


I agree that Chase the Chuckwagon wasn't a homebrew, you mentioned that bit about homebrew titles not having a retail release and I wanted to point out that it doesn't really matter as several non-homebrew games also didn't have a retail release. I was questioning what really makes a game unlicensed compared to a mere homebrew. So far with Air Raid, we only know that it was sold through a discount chain that would buy stock being cleared out cheap, it's not really the same as a regular retail release. Remember the Burger King games that came out a few years ago? Though it was originally available only through the restaurants, I bought several brand new copies at a Dollar Store that regularly buys games that are being liquidated. Should it really count that the games were available at more places than Burger King themselves? Or is it the same as buying brand new games that are donated to a thrift store like the Target donations that I hear about from the finds thread? I would think what should really matter is how the game was originally distributed, or which way it was mostly distributed. Was Air Raid mostly distributed through that discount store or was it available through some other means first?

Technically, if anyone is planning to make a homebrew title they could just send copies to the Digital Press store and it would make the title an unlicensed game rather than a homebrew, since it was available through a retail channel. Just an idea for homebrewers who'll want to make their game more valuable, send free copies to the Digital Press store and you've made your game a rare unlicensed commercial release.


Anyone can collect what they want, I pretty much collect what I come across and enjoy having, if I don't like a game I tend to not keep it. I'm still wondering what makes a game more valuable compared to another one, it's like people started saying Air Raid was valuable just because it was hard to find so other people just agreed with it and now people just accept that Air Raid is valuable because other people said so.

But that's how all value in our society is determined. Why is gold considered more valuable when compared to other more useful metals? Why are diamonds more valueable than many other gemstones?

All of the factors you mentioned above go into what makes something a homebrew rather than a commercial product. The size and sophistication of the company is certainly relevant. The fact that they could afford to produce a box and a unique cartridge case for the game, as well as a color sticker points to the fact that they weren't just some guy in the basement doing this. The fact that it was sold in at least one store is part of it. The fact that it came out during the late 2600 period is also relevant.

Realistically, some guy cranking out professional looking homebrews in the basement wasn't doing so in the 1980s as the technology and low cost printing and fabrication techniques just weren't there. No matter how poor the game or the quality of the fabrication and packaging, it clearly meets the minimum definition of a 1980s commercial product. I agree that today almost anyone can make a commercial product. Unfortunately, it's 20+ years after the 2600 left the market, so now it really is a homebrew, no matter where it's sold.

[Tenjikuronin]

$30K for a game is ridiculous. Time for me to call my contacts in China and have them manufacture 5 or 6 of these for me. I'll market them as being found in a long lost warehouse behind Trader Joe's...

[megasdkirby]

$30K for a game is ridiculous. Time for me to call my contacts in China and have them manufacture 5 or 6 of these for me. I'll market them as being found in a long lost warehouse behind Trader Joe's...

If I were to find a few copies, say 10, I would not divulge the information.

I would keep at least 3 copies for myself, possibly two as gifts to long time friends and family, and the rest will go for sale.

Of course, one per year or every few years. At $100,000 :D

Hey, someone will buy it! :)

Also, the game must be popular if there is at least two additional sequels:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Air-Raid-3_W0QQitemZ170467307747QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_PC_Vi deo_Games_Games?hash=item27b0a4b0e3

LOL

[Greg2600]

I'm shocked the original Men-a-vision principals haven't come out of the woodwork, after all the publicity the game has gotten. I was keeping up with the seller's (Tanman) posts on Atari Age, and he seemed very genuine. It's hard to fake age on the box or the Tuesday Morning price tag.

[Tenjikuronin]

Of course, one per year or every few years. At $100,000 :D



A good idea.....don't want to flood the market at once.:evil laugh:


It's hard to fake age on the box or the Tuesday Morning price tag.

Both are fairly easy to fake.....especially the price tag. It all depends on how devoted the counterfitter is.

That's not to say this particular game box is fake or not....but its always a possibility.

[Gameguy]

I think you raise a number of interesting points, but the reality is that up until this most recent auction, there just wasn't a lot of publicity about this particular game.
I'd like to point out that this game did have more publicity compared to other rare games that are out there.

Here's an article from 2007;
http://www.gamesniped.com/2007/11/08/worlds-most-expensive-video-games/

Notice that in the article, it mentions that no more than 5 have been discovered. In less than 3 years, that's more than doubled.

Here's another article from last year, Air Raid is mentioned and the number of copies is listed at 12.
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/atari/2009/07/rarest-and-most-valuable-atari-2600-games.html

More should be coming out of the woodwork, it's not like many copies of the other games have turned up since then, just this title. Maybe I'm mistaken, were there any other $1000+ rare games where at least an additional 5 copies were confirmed to exist in the last 3 years?


But that's how all value in our society is determined. Why is gold considered more valuable when compared to other more useful metals? Why are diamonds more valueable than many other gemstones?

All of the factors you mentioned above go into what makes something a homebrew rather than a commercial product. The size and sophistication of the company is certainly relevant. The fact that they could afford to produce a box and a unique cartridge case for the game, as well as a color sticker points to the fact that they weren't just some guy in the basement doing this. The fact that it was sold in at least one store is part of it. The fact that it came out during the late 2600 period is also relevant.

Realistically, some guy cranking out professional looking homebrews in the basement wasn't doing so in the 1980s as the technology and low cost printing and fabrication techniques just weren't there. No matter how poor the game or the quality of the fabrication and packaging, it clearly meets the minimum definition of a 1980s commercial product. I agree that today almost anyone can make a commercial product. Unfortunately, it's 20+ years after the 2600 left the market, so now it really is a homebrew, no matter where it's sold.
Okay, I guess a game would have to be made during the system's life span for it to be considered anything but a homebrew title. It's just funny how things become valuable in society.

You also raise an interesting point, since it was much more expensive back then to produce a game like Air Raid, why would there be so few copies made if it was intended to be sold in stores? I really doubt that so few copies are out there. I wouldn't really complain about the value, if I ever find a copy I'd like to get a lot for it. Hype triumphs over substance once again. LOL

[Geddon_jt]

It's a very big risk for the buyer. Tomorrow a warehouse full of sealed carts could be discovered in Mexico, who knows. Anyone remember berenstein bears and cheetah men 2? I would have to be pretty darn sure to spend that kind of money...

[Bojay1997]

I'd like to point out that this game did have more publicity compared to other rare games that are out there.

Here's an article from 2007;
http://www.gamesniped.com/2007/11/08/worlds-most-expensive-video-games/

Notice that in the article, it mentions that no more than 5 have been discovered. In less than 3 years, that's more than doubled.

Here's another article from last year, Air Raid is mentioned and the number of copies is listed at 12.
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/atari/2009/07/rarest-and-most-valuable-atari-2600-games.html

More should be coming out of the woodwork, it's not like many copies of the other games have turned up since then, just this title. Maybe I'm mistaken, were there any other $1000+ rare games where at least an additional 5 copies were confirmed to exist in the last 3 years?


Okay, I guess a game would have to be made during the system's life span for it to be considered anything but a homebrew title. It's just funny how things become valuable in society.

You also raise an interesting point, since it was much more expensive back then to produce a game like Air Raid, why would there be so few copies made if it was intended to be sold in stores? I really doubt that so few copies are out there. I wouldn't really complain about the value, if I ever find a copy I'd like to get a lot for it. Hype triumphs over substance once again. LOL

You're confusing posts on a website that hundreds or maybe a few thousand game collectors frequent with the publicity the game is getting today on CNN and other international websites with millions of visitors. Mentioning a game on a niche collector site is not really publicity at all, but just preaching to the choir.

I don't think anyone but maybe the long silent Men A Vision people know how many were produced. It could be tons or it could be a handful. In any event, the real question is how many exist today. Hopefully the publicity surrounding this auction will help clear that up. Either way, it's an interesting event the likes of which I can't recall a parallel in the 20 years I have been collecting.

[Voliko]

If one thinks about it, making a box for a game that people thought had no boxes in existance is the perfect scenario for a scam. No one knows what the box looks like and everyone is hopeful that the box is real.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I don't know that I have an official opinion yet, but I sure do have a lot of questions.

First of all, I can't believe that the authenticity of this box hasn't been questioned and/or tested more. Anyone saying that they can tell anything about the authenticity of this item based on a bunch of pictures posted on internet forums is just stupid. Historically, art critics have been fooled by fake pieces of art, archeologists have been fooled by fake historical items, hell, even cashiers get fooled by counterfeit bills every day, so just having one person look at the box for a few minutes in a public place really doesn't convince me, and it sure wouldn't be enough proof for me to pay $30k for it.

I'm sure Albert over at AA is a nice guy (I've met him in person multiple times and he's always been pleasant) but does he have any credentials in art fraud? I'm not sure running an Atari-themed website makes one an expert, sorry. To me it would be like if someone ran a Chevrolet dealership, and someone showed up with a one-of-a-kind car made by Chevy and asked the dealership owner to verify the authenticity of the car. Without any paper trail. It's just impossible.

What I don't understand is, where are all the people involved in this whole thing? I mean, the original people? Nobody anywhere has any record of this game? Somebody programmed it, somebody marketed it, somebody did the artwork ... and none of these people are still interested in video games at all? All of them are so far removed from the video game world that nobody has ever mentioned to them this game? I mean, I've talked about Air Raid to friends of mine who have no interest in video games ... shouldn't someone who remembers something have heard about this by now?

And how does a game with such a small production run end up in a store? That makes the whole thing even stranger to me now. At a minimum that means a transaction took place between two businesses. I would think you could track that down, somehow. I don't even know how, but again, before paying $30 grand, I would try. I don't know anything about this store, but are they known for buying 1 item and then selling it? I can't even imagine that.

There's just too many parts to this whole thing that don't add up for me. Why does a game with such a low production run have a box that was sold at a store, and nobody can remember anything except the one guy who bought it?

Color me unconvinced at this point.


This. After reading this thread, no one seems to know much about this game. Everything is pure speculation. I can't see this much being spent on something with such a sketchy history. Anyway it seems like no one is taking the critics of this seriously, treating them sort of like conspiracy theorists... but Jesus, there is so little information on this game I don't see how one can completely believe that a box has surfaced.

[Gameguy]

You're confusing posts on a website that hundreds or maybe a few thousand game collectors frequent with the publicity the game is getting today on CNN and other international websites with millions of visitors. Mentioning a game on a niche collector site is not really publicity at all, but just preaching to the choir.
I remember when that Gamesniped article first came out, it was linked to and posted on dozens of other websites including non-gaming ones. I'm sure more copies turned up because of that article, and it also increased demand for it. It's not even factory sealed yet the box added over $25,000 to the value, compared to what the loose cart used to sell for by itself.

[Ryaan1234]

What I'm thinking, if this Air Raid was really found in a Tuesday Morning in Arlington, TX, then they must have had more than one copy of the game in stock. I mean, what kind of store only stocks one of something?

Any Texas DPers wanna take a road trip? LOL.

(Actually, SteveW should be on the lookout since he's closer to Arlington than myself.)

[PingvinBlueJeans]

I'm shocked the original Men-a-vision principals haven't come out of the woodwork, after all the publicity the game has gotten.
Greg, I can't tell if that's a serious or sarcastic post, but I doubt you'll be hearing from the individuals who ran "Men-A-Vision" any time soon since they're likely in Taiwan and probably only speak Chinese.


Anyway it seems like no one is taking the critics of this seriously, treating them sort of like conspiracy theorists...
Because that's exactly what they are. Like conspiracy theorists, they have no credibility one way or the other (something many of them admit, rather oddly!), and they just keep trying to raise general doubt without making any real, legitimate critical arguments as to their cause. They're not so much interested in proving the item is fake so much as getting people to simply doubt that it's real. They just throw out a laundry list of questions about Air Raid that we have sketchy answers to at best to achieve this, but this doesn't make the item fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).

Reading the posts on this board, it's obvious that most if not all of the skeptics don't collect Atari VCS games or know anything about them (which is fine), but if they bothered to do at least do a little bit of homework before attempting judgements, they wouldn't be asking half the questions they are for starters.

[rik1138]

What I'm thinking, if this Air Raid was really found in a Tuesday Morning in Arlington, TX, then they must have had more than one copy of the game in stock. I mean, what kind of store only stocks one of something?

Any Texas DPers wanna take a road trip? LOL.

(Actually, SteveW should be on the lookout since he's closer to Arlington than myself.)

Well, Tuesday Morning doesn't 'stock' things, per se (or, they didn't back in the 80's). They were more of a close-out type store. They'd buy the remaining stock of something from a warehouse, and sell it cheap. The stores were only open a few months out of the year (usually Nov-Dec, and June-July I think). Something weird like that. I don't know where/how they would buy inventory, but it's conceivable that they bought a lot of 'toys/games' that had a case of 6 Air Raids... So their entire inventory could have consisted of 6 games. Or, they could have purchased 100's in a 'remaining inventory' transaction... They did even have one-of-a-kind items occasionally, but they were usually obviously unique things like a statue or something...

Part of the appeal of the store was that you never knew what you would find there, and there was a good chance that the next time you went there whatever you saw before would never be there again...

(The store may operate completely differently now, I haven't been to one since the 80's...)

Also, I just noticed it says Men-A-Vision was based in Los Angeles, CA... (And the game was made in Taiwan)

[Zap!]

Reading the posts on this board, it's obvious that most if not all of the skeptics don't collect Atari VCS games or know anything about them (which is fine), but if they bothered to do at least do a little bit of homework before attempting judgements, they wouldn't be asking half the questions they are for starters.

That isn't true. I collect 2600 games and know enough about them, and believe Flack does as well.

I don't necessarily believe it's a hoax, but the door is certainly left open.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Tony got pretty close to the mark really. No matter if it is an authentic box or not, it's 'real' among collectors until proven otherwise. I'm not completely convinced, that said, I have little reason to doubt it either. For both confirmation and invalidation, there is nothing at all to compare it to. Except for the fact that it could be fake.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Because that's exactly what they are. Like conspiracy theorists, they have no credibility one way or the other (something many of them admit, rather oddly!), and they just keep trying to raise general doubt without making any real, legitimate critical arguments as to their cause. They're not so much interested in proving the item is fake so much as getting people to simply doubt that it's real. They just throw out a laundry list of questions about Air Raid that we have sketchy answers to at best to achieve this, but this doesn't make the item fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).

Reading the posts on this board, it's obvious that most if not all of the skeptics don't collect Atari VCS games or know anything about them (which is fine), but if they bothered to do at least do a little bit of homework before attempting judgements, they wouldn't be asking half the questions they are for starters.

Oh come on. There aren't many facts about this game. Instead of providing the skeptics with links, you assume everyone is batshit crazy and would rather insult them. You've done little other than call everyone on the opposite side ignorant.

For example, in this post... we get a definition from Wikipedia (bravo!) about ignorance instead of a link to information about the game. I see nothing wrong with Flack's questions above, which is why I agreed with him? Why didn't you call him out too?

I mean really... Air Raid's dubious origins are one thing, but my only question now is- Why are you being such an arrogant prick? Instead of providing appropriate information and educating the "ignorant," you'd rather argue. Now that's helping the situation isn't it!

[megasdkirby]

Considering that the only known boxed one had a price tag affixed directly to the box, it might be assumed that this game was never sealed... Granted, the store might have been selling an 'open box' item, or any of many other possibilities, but I'd be very skeptical of a sealed one at this point...

Something to think about... :)

I recall Condor Attack wasn't sealed when we (my brother and I) found new, CIB copies a few years back. But even when it was in great condition, it had marks of it being old, which for me proved it was authentic (later on, it was determined to be authentic, since other collectors found copies and it had the same box). Air Raid looks too pristine for it's age, which is one reason why I am skeptical.

But you are right about games not being sealed back then, and this could be the case as well. But imagine if sealed copies would surface...if I were to find a few of them, I would be set for life. :D


That isn't true. I collect 2600 games and know enough about them, and believe Flack does as well.

I don't necessarily believe it's a hoax, but the door is certainly left open.

Like always, correct 100%! :)

I am a 2600 collector, specially way back in the day, as some of you know (like Zap!, for instance). But due to situations out of out control, we (my family) no longer collects 2600 games as we used to, but we do buy every now and then. I am just not that type of person that needs every game released for our collection, nor am I desperate to pay whatever amount to achieve that goal. But that doesn't imply, like Zap! stated, that we don't know anything, or much, about 2600 collecting. I persoally feel something is very wrong with the box, and I would love to be proven wrong once adequate and convincing evidence demonstrates that it IS an original box.

[PingvinBlueJeans]

I recall Condor Attack wasn't sealed when we (my brother and I) found new, CIB copies a few years back. But even when it was in great condition, it had marks of it being old, which for me proved it was authentic (later on, it was determined to be authentic, since other collectors found copies and it had the same box). Air Raid looks too pristine for it's age, which is one reason why I am skeptical.

So if the Condor Attack box was in mint condition, that would've made it fake?

If the Air Raid box were in worse condition, would that make it real?


Oh come on. There aren't many facts about this game. Instead of providing the skeptics with links, you assume everyone is batshit crazy and would rather insult them. You've done little other than call everyone on the opposite side ignorant.

For example, in this post... we get a definition from Wikipedia (bravo!) about ignorance instead of a link to information about the game. I see nothing wrong with Flack's questions above, which is why I agreed with him? Why didn't you call him out too?

I mean really... Air Raid's dubious origins are one thing, but my only question now is- Why are you being such an arrogant prick? Instead of providing appropriate information and educating the "ignorant," you'd rather argue. Now that's helping the situation isn't it!
Because I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with people who simply want to present arguments filed with logical fallacies who resort to ad hominem attacks when they're called out on it.

I'll tell you what. I'll be at CGE...so will Tanner Sandlin (the guy who owned the box), Al Yarusso (the guy who examined it) and Jose Artiles (the guy who bought it). If you or Flack or anyone else wants to discuss the box, you'll get your chance in person.

[Tempest]

I'll tell you what. I'll be at CGE...so will Tanner Sandlin (the guy who owned the box), Al Yarusso (the guy who examined it) and Jose Artiles (the guy who bought it). If you or Flack or anyone else wants to discuss the box, you'll get your chance in person.
And I'll be there.
.
.
.
Not that I had anything to do with this, I just wanted to be part of the group. :-D

Seriously though, enough people whom I implicitly trust have said this thing is real so I believe. There's no convincing some people though, so short of a carbon dating test or finding the programmer there will always be some doubt.

Tempest

[Bojay1997]

Greg, I can't tell if that's a serious or sarcastic post, but I doubt you'll be hearing from the individuals who ran "Men-A-Vision" any time soon since they're likely in Taiwan and probably only speak Chinese.


Because that's exactly what they are. Like conspiracy theorists, they have no credibility one way or the other (something many of them admit, rather oddly!), and they just keep trying to raise general doubt without making any real, legitimate critical arguments as to their cause. They're not so much interested in proving the item is fake so much as getting people to simply doubt that it's real. They just throw out a laundry list of questions about Air Raid that we have sketchy answers to at best to achieve this, but this doesn't make the item fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).

Reading the posts on this board, it's obvious that most if not all of the skeptics don't collect Atari VCS games or know anything about them (which is fine), but if they bothered to do at least do a little bit of homework before attempting judgements, they wouldn't be asking half the questions they are for starters.


I'm sorry, but you're way out of line. I personally agree that the box is "legit", whatever that means in the context of an item of this type, but I believe strongly that there is a lot of information missing about the item which makes it very difficult for people to accept that this has somehow become the most expensive video game on the planet. Lots of people here and elsewhere have been collecting VCS for a long, long time. I hate to break it to you, but someone collecting VCS doesn't make them an expert in this item, just like collecting coins for 50 years doesn't make that collector an expert in a heretofore undiscovered type of coin. As someone who has been collecting VCS for over 20 years, I don't believe that I have any special knowledge of the VCS other than what every other collector has. Collecting VCS is not complex in the way that collecting obscure art or other items might be.

Personally, I have actually held an Air Raid cartridge in my hand at an SCE meeting in the early 90s. I concluded then as I believe now that it's a legitimate item, but not something I would collect because frankly it's no different than any other Hong Kong knock-off in my opinion, regardless of where it was sold or where it has been found.

There are still lots of questions to be answered and frankly, depending on the answers, the value of this item and the likelihood that people will even seek additional copies out down the road will be impacted. I know that to people who specialize in VCS collecting, this is seen as some kind of redemptive event to compensate them for the last few years where values have fallen off and the NES has seemingly taken center stage, but I think looking at it as such is a mistake. Less demand and lower prices are good for collectors and while this auction and the surrounding hype may make other rare items available, it may also push up prices and lead to people holding on to items longer in the hopes of seeing their investment appreciate further, thus reducing supply.

[Nature Boy]

With all of the speculation that exists that the box is not real, I can't help but think that the true value of the box isn't $31,000 but is much, much higher.

The lack of true, unassailable proof as to it's legitamacy should have been reflected in the bidding process, shouldn't it? If that's true, then the price reflects somewhat how confident the gaming public is as to it's authenticity.

After all, if it were known to be false (or this copy gets sold a second time after being proved to be false), the price drops radically. I argue the same is true should it turn out to be proven legit: the next time it's sold (if ever) it would go perhaps for double this.

[PingvinBlueJeans]

I think someone should confront Tanner at CGE and ask him to swear on a Bible that the box is real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUFO8AGMwic).

[megasdkirby]

I think someone should confront Tanner at CGE and ask him to swear on a Bible that the box is real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUFO8AGMwic).

That dick (the one with the Bible...Sibrel is it?) deserved the punch in the face.

LOL

[TonyTheTiger]

With all of the speculation that exists that the box is not real, I can't help but think that the true value of the box isn't $31,000 but is much, much higher.

The lack of true, unassailable proof as to it's legitamacy should have been reflected in the bidding process, shouldn't it?

Not necessarily. The number of people who are both Atari collectors and affluent enough to afford tens of thousands for a single game has got to be pretty small. If the lot of them agree that its real then it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks since they'd only be competing with each other anyway.

[Rom Hunter]

I personally agree that the box is "legit", whatever that means in the context of an item of this type, but I believe strongly that there is a lot of information missing about the item which makes it very difficult for people to accept that this has somehow become the most expensive video game on the planet.
Exactly what information, besides the name and adress of the Taiwanese maker, is missing?


Collecting VCS is not complex in the way that collecting obscure art or other items might be.
That totally depends on what VCS games sector you're trying collect.

If you're into collecting label, manual and box variations or non-US VCS cart releases, it can become extremely complex.

Try collecting and determining Thai VCS cart releases, for example.


I concluded then as I believe now that it's a legitimate item, but not something I would collect because frankly it's no different than any other Hong Kong knock-off in my opinion, regardless of where it was sold or where it has been found.
It's actually completely different than any other Hong Kong knock-off (which is a complete world on its own - including many original releases, btw).

If you study "Hong Kong knock-offs" (or Taiwanese pirates as I would like to call them) more closely, you won't find any cart that matches the Air Raid cart.


There are still lots of questions to be answered...
Again: exactly which ones?

8)

[Bojay1997]

Exactly what information, besides the name and adress of the Taiwanese maker, is missing?


That totally depends on what VCS games sector you're trying collect.

If you're into collecting label, manual and box variations or non-US VCS cart releases, it can become extremely complex.

Try collecting and determining Thai VCS cart releases, for example.


It's actually completely different than any other Hong Kong knock-off (which is a complete world on its own - including many original releases, btw).

If you study "Hong Kong knock-offs" (or Taiwanese pirates as they are called) more closely, you won't find any cart that matches the Air Raid cart.


Again: exactly which ones?

8)

Let's see. Who programmed it, how it ended up being sold in the United States, whether there was any actual retail as opposed to liquidator distribution, how it ended up at Tuesday Morning, whether it was sold outside of that chain, how many were made, the list goes on and on. Please see the many posts above for the questions many of us have. If you have the answers, please post them here, I'm sure all of us would love to know them.

I think you are confusing complexity with being detail oriented. It's not hard to compare label, manual and box variations. There was some time required in compiling complete variation lists and lists of VCS games from various regions and the physical labor of obtaining the games, but there is nothing complex about it.

Tell me more about "studying" Hong Kong knock-offs. It sounds fascinating. I'm sorry, it's really sad to me that people are taking this auction as an opportunity to lord their alleged specialization in obscure branches of collecting over everyone else. I know that to some people, this auction legitimizes their collecting of items which most of the rest of the collecting world thinks of as virtually valueless (such as the aforementioned "Taiwanese pirates"), but from my perspective, the only difference between this game and the rest of the pirate games is that it happened to turn up at a more mainstream liquidation retailer as opposed to being relegated to the back alleys of various Chinatowns and swap meets in major metropolitan areas. I'd really love to hear how you think Air Raid differs.

[goatdan]

Here to toss in two cents real quick like...


Let's see. Who programmed it, how it ended up being sold in the United States, whether there was any actual retail as opposed to liquidator distribution, how it ended up at Tuesday Morning, whether it was sold outside of that chain, how many were made, the list goes on and on. Please see the many posts above for the questions many of us have. If you have the answers, please post them here, I'm sure all of us would love to know them.

You know though, these questions are what truly drives the value of this particular game. If the people behind Men-A-Vision suddenly come forward with the full story, suddenly the mystery behind this game disappears.

And so does the pricing of it.

Air Raid is worth huge money in no small part because of the story. It's a one-off cartridge that looks very unique, it is extremely uncommon even for rare games (hell, there are more known Gold NES Competition Carts out there) and the speculation about it's history and the rarity behind it *greatly* drive the value of the game.

The box is worth so much because it answers a couple questions, while creating many, many more. If the box had answered the question that there were tons of these made, or if the box had answered the question of exactly who ran the company, or anything like that -- it wouldn't have been worth so much. But for now, it's an extremely mysterious piece, and that really drives the interest in it.

Imagine if it turned out that the box was found, but the story was that Men-A-Vision created only 20 of them to give to stores as demos and not official releases, and then no stores picked them up? Suddenly, so many people that treat it as the rarest 2600 cart would look at it more like a prototype, and it's value would decline.

I would personally never collect this particular cart for the 2600 if I was big into collecting for the system. To me, the carts I would want are the Atari carts and the big companies -- Parker Bros, Activision, Coleco, Intellivision, Imagic. Manufacturers that made only one cartridge? Just seems odd to me, and with so few found, I have always believed these were demos sent to stores to get them to order games, and then the company folded well before they ever mass produced or shipped finished games.

I have *no* way of knowing that, but the box coming from a liquidator seems like it would work with that theory - a store gets the game, goes under, and when this Tuesday place comes in they get it in their bulk purchase.

But you know what -- the mystery remains, and I think it will for a long time with this cart, which will continue to drive interest in it and make it a worthy addition to any collector's collection, and a talking point for everyone like it is now.

[tom]

I recall Condor Attack wasn't sealed when we (my brother and I) found new, CIB copies a few years back. But even when it was in great condition, it had marks of it being old....

Air Raid looks too pristine for it's age, which is one reason why I am skeptical.

.

Tell me the truth, that Condor Attack box is a fake.

I have pristine VCS games from even earlier, that's not an argument, and you know it.

[Bojay1997]

Here to toss in two cents real quick like...



You know though, these questions are what truly drives the value of this particular game. If the people behind Men-A-Vision suddenly come forward with the full story, suddenly the mystery behind this game disappears.

And so does the pricing of it.

Air Raid is worth huge money in no small part because of the story. It's a one-off cartridge that looks very unique, it is extremely uncommon even for rare games (hell, there are more known Gold NES Competition Carts out there) and the speculation about it's history and the rarity behind it *greatly* drive the value of the game.

The box is worth so much because it answers a couple questions, while creating many, many more. If the box had answered the question that there were tons of these made, or if the box had answered the question of exactly who ran the company, or anything like that -- it wouldn't have been worth so much. But for now, it's an extremely mysterious piece, and that really drives the interest in it.

Imagine if it turned out that the box was found, but the story was that Men-A-Vision created only 20 of them to give to stores as demos and not official releases, and then no stores picked them up? Suddenly, so many people that treat it as the rarest 2600 cart would look at it more like a prototype, and it's value would decline.

I would personally never collect this particular cart for the 2600 if I was big into collecting for the system. To me, the carts I would want are the Atari carts and the big companies -- Parker Bros, Activision, Coleco, Intellivision, Imagic. Manufacturers that made only one cartridge? Just seems odd to me, and with so few found, I have always believed these were demos sent to stores to get them to order games, and then the company folded well before they ever mass produced or shipped finished games.

I have *no* way of knowing that, but the box coming from a liquidator seems like it would work with that theory - a store gets the game, goes under, and when this Tuesday place comes in they get it in their bulk purchase.

But you know what -- the mystery remains, and I think it will for a long time with this cart, which will continue to drive interest in it and make it a worthy addition to any collector's collection, and a talking point for everyone like it is now.

But we know for a fact it's not a one-off (at least the cartridge with color label isn't since at least 12 are in the hands of collectors with possibly many more out there). I can't see how uncertainty necessarily drives the value of the item up. In my mind, it may actually be keeping it down. It keeps a lot of wealthy collectors from bidding because they don't know enough about it to make an educated determination of its value. I have heard more than one collector say that they expect a warehouse find of these to emerge or additional boxed copies to pop up. That may or may not happen, but it certainly keeps people from bidding.

It's not like the consensus in the collecting community is that the game is worth $31K. That's just something that a few wealthy collectors temporarily determined by their bidding war on Ebay. Nobody knows for sure what the next one will sell for or if this one will get anywhere close to $31K if the recent purchaser decides to sell someday. Who knows, if the full story comes out and there is only one boxed copy in existence, perhaps the value will be even higher. My point is just that for long-term valuation purposes, knowing the backstory and having some certainty about what we are dealing with is very, very important.

[Ryaan1234]

Well, Tuesday Morning doesn't 'stock' things, per se (or, they didn't back in the 80's). They were more of a close-out type store. They'd buy the remaining stock of something from a warehouse, and sell it cheap. The stores were only open a few months out of the year (usually Nov-Dec, and June-July I think). Something weird like that. I don't know where/how they would buy inventory, but it's conceivable that they bought a lot of 'toys/games' that had a case of 6 Air Raids... So their entire inventory could have consisted of 6 games. Or, they could have purchased 100's in a 'remaining inventory' transaction... They did even have one-of-a-kind items occasionally, but they were usually obviously unique things like a statue or something...

Part of the appeal of the store was that you never knew what you would find there, and there was a good chance that the next time you went there whatever you saw before would never be there again...

Please don't insult my intelligence. Maybe you didn't notice, but the whole "Who keeps only one game in stock" mini-rant was just there to lead up to the "Any Texas DPers wanna take a road trip?" joke.

Hence the "LOL".

and yes, I guess you didn't get that it was a joke. You've explained the concept of Tuesday Morning to me in a very condescending tone, and I've now explained my joke to you in a very condescending tone. I think we're even.

[allyourblood]

I don't know. I just re-read rik1138's post and I didn't see anything that could be construed as condescending. I think he was just trying to explain how these Tuesday Morning stores work to folks in the thread who don't know how they operate. I wouldn't take it personally.

[goatdan]

But we know for a fact it's not a one-off (at least the cartridge with color label isn't since at least 12 are in the hands of collectors with possibly many more out there).

I never said it was a one-off, I said that it is very conceivable to me at least that Men-A-Vision made these not as a released product, but as samples to get stores to buy them. Having worked in similar environments, it is *very* common for companies to send a sample product out to a store with an order form.

My guess is that Men-A-Vision created a very small batch of these -- but geared up the mold and everything else for orders that then never came. Maybe they sent out 50, maybe 500, maybe 10,000 to stores as samples. Then, my guess is that the video game crash happened, and no one placed an order for anything, making the company go belly up before any wide release of the game or any others from them.

Most sample stuff like that, especially if the buyer for the store was either not a video game fan, would simply get thrown out. To me, it is the most plausible idea of what the real story is behind this.

But again, I never said it was a one-off. I know there were more than one made. It would also perfectly explain how one copy got into a liquidator store.


I can't see how uncertainty necessarily drives the value of the item up. In my mind, it may actually be keeping it down. It keeps a lot of wealthy collectors from bidding because they don't know enough about it to make an educated determination of its value. I have heard more than one collector say that they expect a warehouse find of these to emerge or additional boxed copies to pop up. That may or may not happen, but it certainly keeps people from bidding.

To my mind, if you are willing to spend $30k on a game, you have enough money that if it declines greatly in value, you'll still be okay. I mean, if you're spending $30k on anything and you don't have it in spare value, what is to say you'd get your money back? No matter what, that money is tied up while you own the item.

So your feeling though is that the story to emerge from this game would drive up values if it was known? I don't know what result would do that. If my theory is correct and it is proven to be a sample game, I think that it would go down in value. If the theory is correct and it is determined that 2500 carts were made, people would wait for more to be found. If the theory is correct that this wasn't really supposed to be a US release (which the box seems to contradict), then that would drive the value down. If it is determined that only 25 cartridges were assembled, and they were done by hand and sold at some store, then that would drive values down.

I see no story that would cause values to increase on this game, but the mystery makes it something that is a lot more intriguing to people I think. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's definitely an interesting thing. If we knew the story, would this thread by 9+ pages long?


It's not like the consensus in the collecting community is that the game is worth $31K. That's just something that a few wealthy collectors temporarily determined by their bidding war on Ebay. Nobody knows for sure what the next one will sell for or if this one will get anywhere close to $31K if the recent purchaser decides to sell someday. Who knows, if the full story comes out and there is only one boxed copy in existence, perhaps the value will be even higher. My point is just that for long-term valuation purposes, knowing the backstory and having some certainty about what we are dealing with is very, very important.

But you're dealing with something so rare that standard valuation really doesn't apply. The $31k that this particular copy sold for wasn't something that everyone got together and debated, but the fact is that there are maybe 100 collectors willing to pay thousands for a game, and there are a few clearly willing to bid $30k plus for it. So, while the whole community didn't sit around debating what it was worth, the current price is $31k. And, you're right -- the next time it sells it will be another temporary determination, as unless a ton of these are suddenly found, it will never change hands enough for everyone to determine a real cost.

It isn't worth $30k to me, but that just means that I'll never be setting the price.

And really, with things this rare, the highest end collectors always determine the price, and it will always fluctuate depending on who is looking at the moment. That first Stadium Events auction drove people who didn't collect NES games into the market and is a big part of the reason that the second auction did so well. If another Air Raid sold right now, with the publicity that it is getting, I'm certain that it would sell for more.

The whole comic community didn't set the price for Action Comics #1 to sell for $1.5 million dollars a couple weeks ago. That was again, just a couple high profile bidders who set the price for a highly sought after item. Air Raid is no different. A boxed copy of Air Raid *is* worth $31k until another boxed copy of Air Raid turns up, or the first one is sold.

[Bojay1997]

I never said it was a one-off, I said that it is very conceivable to me at least that Men-A-Vision made these not as a released product, but as samples to get stores to buy them. Having worked in similar environments, it is *very* common for companies to send a sample product out to a store with an order form.

My guess is that Men-A-Vision created a very small batch of these -- but geared up the mold and everything else for orders that then never came. Maybe they sent out 50, maybe 500, maybe 10,000 to stores as samples. Then, my guess is that the video game crash happened, and no one placed an order for anything, making the company go belly up before any wide release of the game or any others from them.

Most sample stuff like that, especially if the buyer for the store was either not a video game fan, would simply get thrown out. To me, it is the most plausible idea of what the real story is behind this.

But again, I never said it was a one-off. I know there were more than one made. It would also perfectly explain how one copy got into a liquidator store.



To my mind, if you are willing to spend $30k on a game, you have enough money that if it declines greatly in value, you'll still be okay. I mean, if you're spending $30k on anything and you don't have it in spare value, what is to say you'd get your money back? No matter what, that money is tied up while you own the item.

So your feeling though is that the story to emerge from this game would drive up values if it was known? I don't know what result would do that. If my theory is correct and it is proven to be a sample game, I think that it would go down in value. If the theory is correct and it is determined that 2500 carts were made, people would wait for more to be found. If the theory is correct that this wasn't really supposed to be a US release (which the box seems to contradict), then that would drive the value down. If it is determined that only 25 cartridges were assembled, and they were done by hand and sold at some store, then that would drive values down.

I see no story that would cause values to increase on this game, but the mystery makes it something that is a lot more intriguing to people I think. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's definitely an interesting thing. If we knew the story, would this thread by 9+ pages long?



But you're dealing with something so rare that standard valuation really doesn't apply. The $31k that this particular copy sold for wasn't something that everyone got together and debated, but the fact is that there are maybe 100 collectors willing to pay thousands for a game, and there are a few clearly willing to bid $30k plus for it. So, while the whole community didn't sit around debating what it was worth, the current price is $31k. And, you're right -- the next time it sells it will be another temporary determination, as unless a ton of these are suddenly found, it will never change hands enough for everyone to determine a real cost.

It isn't worth $30k to me, but that just means that I'll never be setting the price.

And really, with things this rare, the highest end collectors always determine the price, and it will always fluctuate depending on who is looking at the moment. That first Stadium Events auction drove people who didn't collect NES games into the market and is a big part of the reason that the second auction did so well. If another Air Raid sold right now, with the publicity that it is getting, I'm certain that it would sell for more.

The whole comic community didn't set the price for Action Comics #1 to sell for $1.5 million dollars a couple weeks ago. That was again, just a couple high profile bidders who set the price for a highly sought after item. Air Raid is no different. A boxed copy of Air Raid *is* worth $31k until another boxed copy of Air Raid turns up, or the first one is sold.

I agree that the sample thing is one potential scenario. Let me share another one that could result in the value going up if proven to be true. This game saw a small production run of a couple of thousand copies, it was never shipped to retailers or shipped to very few because the company went bankrupt before it could be distributed. The retailers that did carry it sent their copies back when they didn't sell and eventually a few copies were sold to Tuesday Morning at liquidation while most of the remaining copies were destroyed by the bankruptcy trustee when storage costs outweighed their value. Under that scenario, I think this could be considered a regular retail release and one that saw very, very limited distribution.

I don't agree that a second Air Raid would necessarily sell for more in similar condition. Essentially, you have already satisfied demand at that level and the next copy in theory should go for less, perhaps far less depending on the gaps between the levels the top three bidders were at in the original auction. Of course, there is a possibility that it could go for more or that other collectors would enter the bidding or that the original group who bid it up still have the money and interest. Of course, now you are talking about an item that would have two known boxed copies.

I would think that rather than a set value of $31K, the game would more likely have a range of value estimate like auction houses use. They would analyze the bidding patterns and make some calculations about the potential demand for the item. It could sell for more or less than the estimate, just like every other auction. We know what it sold for, but there is no guarantee that it would sell for that amount again because there is not enough consistent availability and demand to know either way. Value is typically not set in collectibles by just one transaction. If you look at price guides, they will create a range and add a comment to the effect that one copy sold for a particular price at auction, etc...

[tom]

That could be true, the second (sealed) Stadium Events didn't sell for 40k, in the end they settled on 12k approx.

[megasdkirby]

Tell me the truth, that Condor Attack box is a fake.

I have pristine VCS games from even earlier, that's not an argument, and you know it.

Your copy of Xman is fake too! :p

No, but for the most part, one would think that there would be SOME indication that it was old. Nothing remains the same way when it's released, no matter how well it is treated. There is always some indication, even diminute, that it's old. But this box looks only a bit worn, so unless the person is extremely picky about item condition, I find this hard to believe, specially when he said he had it as a little kid, which at that age not everyone will keep things pristine.


I have heard more than one collector say that they expect a warehouse find of these to emerge or additional boxed copies to pop up. That may or may not happen, but it certainly keeps people from bidding.

I agree. I for one feel that, sooner or later, more copies will appear, some even with their boxes. Heck, what about if it had a manual too? So why waste so much on this game, or for any video game? Just seems ludicrous.

Could the game just be a hobbyist job? Maybe someone back then was bored, "created" the game, and actually started selling it on his/her own accord.


A boxed copy of Air Raid *is* worth $31k until another boxed copy of Air Raid turns up, or the first one is sold.

It's going to happen (reselling the game). At one point the new owner will sell it, and at which point will be interesting to see what happens.


That could be true, the second (sealed) Stadium Events didn't sell for 40k, in the end they settled on 12k approx.

It's because of what I told you earlier: people are desperate. We've discussed this before, Tom. A game goes very high because the person is so desperate that they think they NEED the copy. They might deny the fact that they are not desperate, but deep down it is that motivation that drives a person to do some incredible things.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The uncertainty is basically the fulcrum of potential market value, and it stands pretty high as it is. The up/down once clarity reigns and the dust settles could be epic, to the better or worse. Goat has a very good point about the mystique factor... It's strong with this one. "As strong as a small pony." :D

[Sniderman]

I think someone should confront Tanner at CGE and ask him to swear on a Bible that the box is real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUFO8AGMwic).

I will never accept that unless the Bible itself is first confirmed to be official - perhaps a Gutenberg blessed by the Pope or something. Or a Dead Sea Scroll.

[Greg2600]

Greg, I can't tell if that's a serious or sarcastic post, but I doubt you'll be hearing from the individuals who ran "Men-A-Vision" any time soon since they're likely in Taiwan and probably only speak Chinese.
I was serious, but I thought Men-a-Vision was in Los Angeles. Oh well. If they were stationed in Taiwan, then this game is a bit more of a pirate than a true US release, IMO.

[PingvinBlueJeans]

I will never accept that unless the Bible itself is first confirmed to be official - perhaps a Gutenberg blessed by the Pope or something. Or a Dead Sea Scroll.
How about if the bearer is cloaked in the Shroud of Turin? (Or has that thing finally been formally debunked?)


I was serious, but I thought Men-a-Vision was in Los Angeles. Oh well. If they were stationed in Taiwan, then this game is a bit more of a pirate than a true US release, IMO.
Well the box says Los Angeles on the back and they may have indeed had some base of operations/distribution there, but they were definitely operating under the radar if so (no records with the state of California), and it appears the game had origins in Taiwan (which isn't exactly a shock since that's where 90% of the pirate hacks and other junk came from).

They had to get the games into the country somehow though, so I suppose L.A. is as good as anywhere. But obviously either not many copies did make it over here, or most of them were lost/stolen/destroyed, since less than 20 copies of the game have turned up. All I know is, that blue T-handle that Men-A-Vision used for the Air Raid cartridges wasn't used by anyone else for any other games...someone paid a lot ($10,000+) to have that mold made and they sure didn't do it just to make 20 cartridges.

[megasdkirby]

Could the game only have been released to rental stores?

[TonyTheTiger]

All I know is, that blue T-handle that Men-A-Vision used for the Air Raid cartridges wasn't used by anyone else for any other games...someone paid a lot ($10,000+) to have that mold made and they sure didn't do it just to make 20 cartridges.

Which is probably the #1 most WTF part of the whole thing. I, too, find it inconceivable that a large company would have a custom mold made for so few copies let alone a small rinky dink mom & pop operation. But if that's the case then where the hell did all the copies go? A full run of a game doesn't just vanish. Maybe there's a crap load over in China somewhere and a handful of copies randomly made their way over here. Not by specific corporate intent but rather just through ordinary person to person trade.

But here's a question. It sounds like everybody knows of Men-A-Vision but nobody knows anything about it. How did anybody know what year the game was made? I mean, before the box that has 1982 printed on it. When did people think the game was made?

Also, is it possible the mold is just a happy accident that an unrelated item was conveniently well suited for a VCS cartridge? It happened fairly recently when Jaguars started showing up as dental equipment.

If there's one thing I'm skeptical of it's that this phantom Men-A-Vision was a real company targeting the U.S. market. I'm more inclined to believe a few Taiwanese homebrew/knockoffs/pirates whatever you want to call them by chance trickled over here or a few were intentionally brought over here by some random dude who then sold them off.

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Which is probably the #1 most WTF part of the whole thing. I, too, find it inconceivable that a large company would have a custom mold made for so few copies let alone a small rinky dink mom & pop operation. But if that's the case then where the hell did all the copies go? A full run of a game doesn't just vanish. Maybe there's a crap load over in China somewhere and a handful of copies randomly made their way over here. Not by specific corporate intent but rather just through ordinary person to person trade.
It's certainly possible that there's a NOS batch of these out there somewhere just waiting to be discovered, but my guess is that most of these ended up at the bottom of some Chinese landfill. If there were NIB copies out there, you'd think that a box would've popped up long before now...but of course one never knows with these types of things.


But here's a question. It sounds like everybody knows of Men-A-Vision but nobody knows anything about it. How did anybody know what year the game was made? I mean, before the box that has 1982 printed on it. When did people think the game was made?
Well, the game is a ripoff of Space Jockey, which didn't come out until early '82, IIRC. So my guess would be that people (correctly) surmised that the game came out sometime after this but before the '83-'84 crash. The release date was never definitely known until that box showed up. (The EPROMs inside the cartridges might have a date on them, but I honestly can't remember).


Also, is it possible the mold is just a happy accident that an unrelated item was conveniently well suited for a VCS cartridge? It happened fairly recently when Jaguars started showing up as dental equipment.
Possible, but not very likely to say the least.


If there's one thing I'm skeptical of it's that this phantom Men-A-Vision was a real company targeting the U.S. market. I'm more inclined to believe a few Taiwanese homebrew/knockoffs/pirates whatever you want to call them by chance trickled over here or a few were intentionally brought over here by some random dude who then sold them off.
Yeah, but it was in NTSC format (well, sort of...) and it has the Los Angeles reference on the back of the box, so I'm inclined to believe it was indeed intended for the U.S. market.

[Greg2600]

Well, I just have a hard time giving this game much more credence than any other Hong Kong knock-off. I believe the seller that it is real, but that's almost irrelevant to my feeling. Maybe because I was a long time sports card collector, as well as following classic car auctions for many years, that I don't get the value of a game like this? In those realms, the items that are most coveted are almost always of a person or mark that means something. Babe Ruth, Ferrari, a letter written by Abe Lincoln, whatever. This game has none of that. It wasn't made by the beloved Atari, or Activision or Imagic or Mattel, Coleco, etc. Granted most of their stuff isn't as rare, but they have name value. I understand demand dictates the price on Air Raid games and now the box, but I really can't agree with the demand.

[rik1138]

Please don't insult my intelligence. Maybe you didn't notice, but the whole "Who keeps only one game in stock" mini-rant was just there to lead up to the "Any Texas DPers wanna take a road trip?" joke.

Hence the "LOL".

and yes, I guess you didn't get that it was a joke. You've explained the concept of Tuesday Morning to me in a very condescending tone, and I've now explained my joke to you in a very condescending tone. I think we're even.

Okay, how in the hell do you perceive what I wrote as 'an insult to your intelligence'? You made a comment suggesting that the store in TX probably had a lot of these back in the day (and it might very well have), and then the joke about traveling to TX... I was just explaining how Tuesday Morning gets it's inventory... You never once suggested you know anything about the store, so I was simply explaining how it worked... It's not condescending at all...

Care to explain exactly where I came off as condescending to you? That would probably be interesting to read...

The post wasn't even directed at you, I was just using your post as an example to explain the workings of the store to everyone.

I _DID_ get the 'DPers going to TX' joke (that's also why I pointed out that the company was based in CA), but you never made any indication that you knew how Tuesday Morning worked and were making a joke at the way the store operates...

So, since an explanation of the inner workings of TM are such an insult to your intelligence, can you tell us exactly where and how they purchased their inventory? I would actually be really interested in that information... Even if it really wouldn't do us any good now.

[Zap!]

That could be true, the second (sealed) Stadium Events didn't sell for 40k, in the end they settled on 12k approx.

How so? Did the winner tell him he only had $12k? I would have relisted it. Why settle for 12k, he could have gotten at least 25k with a relist.

[TonyTheTiger]

Yeah, but it was in NTSC format (well, sort of...) and it has the Los Angeles reference on the back of the box, so I'm inclined to believe it was indeed intended for the U.S. market.

Yeah, it's possible. But when it comes to China I don't take anything for granted. I've been in mom and pop convenience stores that sell imported soft drinks with fake nutritional information on them. I've seen cheap tomagotchi knockoffs inexplicably sporting pictures of Mickey Mouse. The L.A. thing could possibly be explained the same way the misspellings can be. It's just pretend knockoff bullshit.


Well, I just have a hard time giving this game much more credence than any other Hong Kong knock-off. I believe the seller that it is real, but that's almost irrelevant to my feeling. Maybe because I was a long time sports card collector, as well as following classic car auctions for many years, that I don't get the value of a game like this? In those realms, the items that are most coveted are almost always of a person or mark that means something. Babe Ruth, Ferrari, a letter written by Abe Lincoln, whatever. This game has none of that. It wasn't made by the beloved Atari, or Activision or Imagic or Mattel, Coleco, etc. Granted most of their stuff isn't as rare, but they have name value. I understand demand dictates the price on Air Raid games and now the box, but I really can't agree with the demand.

I agree. If I were to churn out a hack of Space Jockey today and distribute only 12 copies around the country nobody would care. Does the fact that some random guy did it back in 1982 really make that much of a difference? It sounds a lot like the "if it's old it's better" philosophy. I think Icarus Moonsight said it best. The mythos matters more than the game.