Atari 2600 Air Raid box found

[goldenegg]

It's going to happen (reselling the game). At one point the new owner will sell it, and at which point will be interesting to see what happens.


The new owner has no desire to resell. His main purpose is to create a Atari 2600 museum.

[Greg2600]

Here's the seller, on the local news...

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/top_stories/41410-Atari-Video-Game-Sold-for-31K

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Yeah, it's possible. But when it comes to China I don't take anything for granted. I've been in mom and pop convenience stores that sell imported soft drinks with fake nutritional information on them. I've seen cheap tomagotchi knockoffs inexplicably sporting pictures of Mickey Mouse. The L.A. thing could possibly be explained the same way the misspellings can be. It's just pretend knockoff bullshit.

True, but one thing I would add is that unlike most pirate crap of Hong Kong/Taiwan origin (which is PAL and is found outside the U.S.), no copies of Air Raid have turned up outside the United States (that we know of, anyway).

[Gameguy]

Here's the seller, on the local news...

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/top_stories/41410-Atari-Video-Game-Sold-for-31K
I really don't get one quote that was said;

"I think nostalgia is kicking in,” Sandlin. “This is 30-35 years old. I think people are starting to remember back when they were kids and first started playing with their friends and everything. I think that's why people wanted to buy this."
Nostalgia is kicking in for a game so rare few people ever heard of/saw a copy of it back then and even fewer played it, yet that's enough nostalgia to get people paying $30,000+ for a title that's horrible to play? I think it's more about several collectors being obsessed with collecting every title in perfect condition rather than a person who's nostalgic about playing games from their childhood.



I agree. If I were to churn out a hack of Space Jockey today and distribute only 12 copies around the country nobody would care.
It depends on how you do it, if you were a multimillionaire you could release a game for fun that would be in huge demand. Just make sure to include a separate clue engraved inside each cartridge casing, whoever finds them all will win a prize of $100,000,000. Just make sure to mail each cartridge to a different area around the country(or even around North America) and have each one donated to a separate thrift store, only announce the contest a month after donating them. I'm sure people would be willing to pay big bucks for each cartridge to claim that prize.

For extra fun, make it a condition of claiming the prize that a picture must be taken with all of the games together, and the person claiming the prize must also be in the picture while completely naked. Make sure to distribute that picture when publicly announcing the winner to the general public(you can censor it, that won't affect how funny it will be).

[TonyTheTiger]

I now have a purpose in life.:drinking:

[Zing]

Here's the seller, on the local news...

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/top_stories/41410-Atari-Video-Game-Sold-for-31K

Haha. I like how the dude running the used game store is like "look through your closets, bring in your old games, see what they are worth", as if he is hoping to score something rare from someone's mom trading in their son's old games.

[Zap!]

What makes me somewhat suspicious is the missing instructions. For someone who kept such a near-flawless box that's 25 years old, why lose the instructions? Seems he'd be the type of person to keep them. Unless...

They never came with them. I was told some 2600 games didn't come with instructions, but are unsure how many. This seems quite rare. Never in my 31 years of gaming have I bought a new game that didn't come with instructions. Ever.

I really hate to throw this out there, but could it be creating a 16-page (or whatever) booklet would have been too much work, and a royal pain in the butt? I am in no way saying he did this, and deeply apologize to Tanman if it's legit.

[tom]

I bet ALL Atari VCS game boxes are fake.

[tom]

What makes me somewhat suspicious is the missing instructions. For someone who kept such a near-flawless box that's 25 years old, why lose the instructions? Seems he'd be the type of person to keep them. Unless...

They never came with them. I was told some 2600 games didn't come with instructions, but are unsure how many. This seems quite rare. Never in my 31 years of gaming have I bought a new game that didn't come with instructions. Ever.

I really hate to throw this out there, but could it be creating a 16-page (or whatever) booklet would have been too much work, and a royal pain in the butt? I am in no way saying he did this, and deeply apologize to Tanman if it's legit.

Instructions are on back of box

[Zap!]

Instructions are on back of box

That's mostly a description except for two short sentences. What games that you know of just put the instructions on the back and don't come with a booklet? Even 1976 Fairchild Channel F games came with booklets.

[tom]

Plenty Quelle releases had only instructions on the back:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/thomasholzer/Dschungelboy.jpg

[Zap!]

Plenty Quelle releases had only instructions on the back:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/thomasholzer/Dschungelboy.jpg

I know a few games did this, I'm just saying it was extremely rare. I don't mean to stir debate, I guess a conspiracy can be found in almost anything. Right now I'll give Tanman the benefit of the doubt.

[Rom Hunter]

There was some time required in compiling complete variation lists and lists of VCS games from various regions and the physical labor of obtaining the games, but there is nothing complex about it.
Compiling these lists IS part of the complexity.

It took many years to create them and there are still some 3,000 undiscovered foreign VCS carts out there to be listed.


Tell me more about "studying" Hong Kong knock-offs. It sounds fascinating.
Well, I'm examining and adding foreign VCS game cart, box and manual scans at a daily basis and it's amazing, almost scary, to see how many different cart types and label/box artwork there exist.

Sometimes it can be quite difficult to tell where a certain cart comes from.

By studying their artwork, serial numbers, release dates, AKA titles, etc. missing titles in uncomplete lists can be tracked down and sometimes their true origins can be determined by doing so.

It's truly a fascinating thing to do.

I can tell you more about it if you're interested.


I'd really love to hear how you think Air Raid differs.
- The exact plastics shape of the Air Raid cart is not found amongst other Taiwanese VCS cart releases.

- The game is not a simple (graphics) hack, like most Taiwanese and South American VCS cart releases, but offers a lot of non-stolen coding.

- Unlike any other Taiwanese VCS cart producing company, only one single game was ever released.

- It uses the NTSC color palette, but is technically speaking a PAL game, which is quite uncommon amongst Taiwanese VCS cart releases.

- The label artwork can not be found on other Taiwanese VCS carts, which (funny enough) is also very uncommon amongst Taiwanese VCS carts.

So it's not really an ordinary Taiwanese pirate cart.

8)

[pseudonym]

I took Bojay's comments as sarcasm but I find the threads on AA about PAL and pirate carts a very interesting read myself. \\^_^/

As long as the buyer's happy with the game I guess is all that matters, he obviously thought it was legitimate enough to drop 30k on it. Congrats to him and the seller for the windfall of cash.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The new owner has no desire to resell. His main purpose is to create a Atari 2600 museum.

So he's like the PT Barnum of VCS stuff? LOL

He got on TV for buying it huh? Buying your way on the tube takes some serious cash, he could be in the black already from a certain POV.

[goatdan]

No, but for the most part, one would think that there would be SOME indication that it was old. Nothing remains the same way when it's released, no matter how well it is treated. There is always some indication, even diminute, that it's old. But this box looks only a bit worn, so unless the person is extremely picky about item condition, I find this hard to believe, specially when he said he had it as a little kid, which at that age not everyone will keep things pristine.

Depends -- my dad is a huge HUGE Star Wars collector. And even when I was young, I used to keep everything in pristine condition because I learned from my dad that if you did that, and you decided to keep it you'd appreciate having it nice, or if you sold it you would get more money for it.

I collect Ghostbusters figures and did as a kid. In fact, I asked my dad if the first one I got I should open or keep sealed! And I was like four or five. It got opened, but I very carefully took off the bubble that held it and still have the card in perfect condition today. All of the video games that I own are in the same condition today, regardless if they were 2600 games that I bought or NES games -- if they were new, they are more mint than any game I have ever bought used from anywhere else, period. So, again -- depending on the person, it's reasonable that this person kept it so nice.


Which is probably the #1 most WTF part of the whole thing. I, too, find it inconceivable that a large company would have a custom mold made for so few copies let alone a small rinky dink mom & pop operation. But if that's the case then where the hell did all the copies go? A full run of a game doesn't just vanish. Maybe there's a crap load over in China somewhere and a handful of copies randomly made their way over here. Not by specific corporate intent but rather just through ordinary person to person trade.

No, because if that was true someone would have found one overseas if they were way more common over there.

I really believe that these were sample games that they paid a lot to make the mold so they could make a ton of money after stores bought it. They did the mold to set their product apart and show that it was a serious thing. And then they made the cartridges and sent them to corporate buyers -- maybe 100, maybe 1000 copies.

After that happened, they never got enough orders to justify a run of the game for real. Most buyers threw the games out, but a few got saved, which are what pops up.

That's the only story that makes sense to me, but the fact it is such a WTF thing, as well as that no one knows, it will continue to drive tons of interest in this game above just about any other classic game out there.

[Bojay1997]

Compiling these lists IS part of the complexity.

It took many years to create them and there are still some 3,000 undiscovered foreign VCS carts out there to be listed.


Well, I'm examining and adding foreign VCS game cart, box and manual scans at a daily basis and it's amazing, almost scary, to see how many different cart types and label/box artwork there exist.

Sometimes it can be quite difficult to tell where a certain cart comes from.

By studying their artwork, serial numbers, release dates, AKA titles, etc. missing titles in uncomplete lists can be tracked down and sometimes their true origins can be determined by doing so.

It's truly a fascinating thing to do.

I can tell you more about it if you're interested.


- The exact plastics shape of the Air Raid cart is not found amongst other Taiwanese VCS cart releases.

- The game is not a simple (graphics) hack, like most Taiwanese and South American VCS cart releases, but offers a lot of non-stolen coding.

- Unlike any other Taiwanese VCS cart producing company, only one single game was ever released.

- It uses the NTSC color palette, but is technically speaking a PAL game, which is quite uncommon amongst Taiwanese VCS cart releases.

- The label artwork can not be found on other Taiwanese VCS carts, which (funny enough) is also very uncommon amongst Taiwanese VCS carts.

So it's not really an ordinary Taiwanese pirate cart.

8)

Just to be clear, the two unique things about it are that it has a different casing and the company that released it only released one game? By the way, how do you know the company didn't produce other games under other names in Taiwan? It seems like someone had to learn VCS programming which wasn't super simple. The other things while uncommon or rare to other Taiwanese VCS carts aren't unique. I'm failing to see how that differentiates this item and makes it worth $30K to a collector. It's not that hard to create a case (nor was it in the 1980s) and having held the Air Raid case in my hand, it doesn't actually feel that sturdy. So, can you perhaps shed some light on why this one item is now the most valuable VCS item by perhaps a factor of ten? Is it just completist collectors battling it out or is there something else?

[megasdkirby]

Is it just completist collectors battling it out or is there something else?

I believe it is this. Since a collector's (in most cases) is to obtain a complete set of something, they thrive on obtaining items that they need to accomplish this. However, and as I stated before, being desperate, or obsessive, drives a person to pay a ludicrous amount for something they need, even if the item is not worth it. An example of this is an AtariAge member who paid over $300 (I don't recall the exact amount, but it was unnecessarily high) for a CIB copy of "Tank Command" for the 7800, when said game (with time and patience) could be obtain for much less. Reason he paid so much was because "He got tired of waiting and he wanted it" (I could rephrase it as "Wanted it BADLY and did not want to wait). We all have been a victim of this, as I almost paid $600+ for a US Sonic for the SMS, but thankfully I lost at the last second.


The new owner has no desire to resell. His main purpose is to create a Atari 2600 museum.

That's what they all say. And at one point or another, it will sell.

[goatdan]

It's not that hard to create a case (nor was it in the 1980s) and having held the Air Raid case in my hand, it doesn't actually feel that sturdy.

Actually, to create a mass market projection mold, especially at that period in time, while not overly complex was and is not exactly a cheap proposal. Others have thrown out a cost of $10,000 for the mold alone. While I don't know if it would have been that expensive -- the ultimate product was made in Taiwan, afterall -- even if it was $5k to do, that is a MAJOR cost.

The person also had to make their own circuit boards for the games to fit into that mold.

Overall, even if it was only $5k to do both of these steps, that is still a huge startup cost for a game that seems to have sold less than 500 copies. That would be a $10 per cart price for the mold at the lower cost.

The game sells for so much in no small part because of the huge mystery surrounding it. Why invest the time and money into a custom mold if the game is not going to be mass produced? But if the game was mass produced, why have we never found more than a baker's dozen of them, and why don't other pirate carts or whatever turn up with the exact same mold, not something 'close' to it?

And yes, it's also a completionist thing.

[98PaceCar]

That's what they all say. And at one point or another, it will sell.

You seem dead set on believing this, but you don't have all of the information to make this statement. The only time Wonder sells games is when he gets a better condition version of something he already has or the few prototypes he's done runs for. Hang out at Atariage for a while and you'll learn this. His goals are not to make money with the game, he clearly doesn't need to buy/sell games to have the income he desires. He has stated many times that he wants to open a museum dedicated to the 2600 and this is an important piece to that puzzle. The value to him is not in resale and rather having a complete collection of something he enjoys and wants to share with others.

What people seem to be forgetting is that to some people, spending $30,000 is just as easy as spending $30. Whether or not the game is actually worth $30,000 is for each individual to decide. At this point in time, to the 2 top bidders of the auction, it is worth that.

[Rom Hunter]

Just to be clear, the two unique things about it are that it has a different casing and the company that released it only released one game? By the way, how do you know the company didn't produce other games under other names in Taiwan? It seems like someone had to learn VCS programming which wasn't super simple. The other things while uncommon or rare to other Taiwanese VCS carts aren't unique. I'm failing to see how that differentiates this item and makes it worth $30K to a collector. It's not that hard to create a case (nor was it in the 1980s) and having held the Air Raid case in my hand, it doesn't actually feel that sturdy. So, can you perhaps shed some light on why this one item is now the most valuable VCS item by perhaps a factor of ten? Is it just completist collectors battling it out or is there something else?
Like Pitfall Harry said on AA:

"When people start plunking down $10K or more for an Atari video game, I really doubt PAL vs. NTSC is much of an issue. Legitimate vs. Pirate Hack, or whose "Official Releases" the game is listed on (or doesn't appear on) probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans, either. Heavy hitter collectors are not bidding five figures on Air Raid because of its exhilarating gameplay. They are not coughing up that much dough for label art worthy of Leonardo da Vinci.

Air Raid is a bastard game. We all know that. Most of the code is stolen from Space Jockey, and the rest of the code adds nothing to make the game any more endearing. Men-A-Vision was a shady operation at best. The fact that no one has ever come forward to admit any connection to the company whatsoever, after all these years, is testament to its slimy underbelly. What, then, is the attraction to Air Raid? What makes grown men (if there is such a thing in the Atari collecting world) want to part with enough money to buy a new car to add it to their collection?

Air Raid has unmistakeable cachet! The blue T-handled cartridge has been at the eye of a storm of controversy for decades now. Each time a new copy of Air Raid has surfaced and sold on eBay, the game has commanded a higher price. And each time that has happened, the PAL vs. NTSC communities have gone to war on the message boards, bickering over which side Air Raid rightfully belongs. Ironically, each side wishes it belong to the other. The arguments over legitimate release or not rage right alongside. Nothing is ever decided. The camps split more decisively with each new iteration. Through the long years, uncertainty over the identity and classification of Air Raid has created such a polarizing rift in the collecting community that the rift itself has become a landmark in the history of video game collecting. Unending controversy has imbued the game with a mystique that transcends its already notable, extreme rarity. The story has grown larger than the game itself.

Tanman's Air Raid box IS the story. It answers questions collectors have debated over for decades. The game really is named Air Raid. The game really is a U.S. Release, albeit with a Taiwanese connection. Even if the authors of the printed text on the box cannot be trusted, its discovery and existence is nevertheless a windfall of new information (and new speculation) on the game we never had before, nor had any way of ever finding out.

The collector who ultimately owns the Tanman Air Raid box becomes the caretaker of a significant piece of Atari collecting lore. They will own not merely a "holy grail" rarity, but THE rosetta stone that unlocked mysteries that have confounded and divided collectors for decades. Such is the cachet of owning Air Raid. When you have $10K or more to toss down on a video game, cachet means a lot more than on whose "official list" the game is listed. Air Raid neither fits nor belongs on a list. It is a collection all on its own".

I quoted his words, because I couldn't have said it better.

BTW: there's a small change that the actual Air Raid mold will be found during the next few days.

If it really turns out to be the genuine Air Raid mold, no more than 25 carts were ever made.

8)

[tom]

Just to be clear, the two unique things about it are that it has a different casing and the company that released it only released one game? By the way, how do you know the company didn't produce other games under other names in Taiwan? It seems like someone had to learn VCS programming which wasn't super simple. The other things while uncommon or rare to other Taiwanese VCS carts aren't unique. I'm failing to see how that differentiates this item and makes it worth $30K to a collector. It's not that hard to create a case (nor was it in the 1980s) and having held the Air Raid case in my hand, it doesn't actually feel that sturdy. So, can you perhaps shed some light on why this one item is now the most valuable VCS item by perhaps a factor of ten? Is it just completist collectors battling it out or is there something else?

Maybe you just don't get it. Shall we leave it at that?

[Icarus Moonsight]

How could you tell that 25 were produced? I was thinking the other day that the mold might have been re-purposed from another plastic product or design/mold (possibly not even game related, like a plastic kitchen utensil handle, cover or something off-the-wall odd like that), hence it's unique features and character for a game case (O2 pull-tops excepted *inspiration?*).

If the production was extremely limited, then a full-on for mass production mold might not have been even used. Something inexpensive, not intended to be durable, also cheap and simple to fabricate. IDK what, but it seems more logical than the heavy investment for a low-print or sample/proto production.

[Rom Hunter]

How could you tell that 25 were produced? I was thinking the other day that the mold might have been re-purposed from another plastic product or design/mold (possibly not even game related, like a plastic kitchen utensil handle, cover or something off-the-wall odd like that), hence it's unique features and character for a game case (O2 pull-tops excepted *inspiration?*).
Funny thought.

"Hey, I still have an Air Raid union crusher from the eighties in my kitchen."


If the production was extremely limited, then a full-on for mass production mold might not have been even used. Something inexpensive, not intended to be durable, also cheap and simple to fabricate. IDK what, but it seems more logical than the heavy investment for a low-print or sample/proto production.
According to the owner of the mold, a first sample run of 51 parts (25 and a half cartridges) was made and that was it.

8)

[Bojay1997]

Maybe you just don't get it. Shall we leave it as that?

Maybe you should avoid discussion boards since you seem only capable of being critical of everyone else who doesn't share your narrow minded opinion about things. Many of us live in a less black and white world where we actually give thought to what we say, write and do. I actually have found this discussion to be very enlightening. I feel more convinced of my belief that Air Raid has no place in my collection, but I also have an understanding of how this item became a $30,000 rarity and why the purchaser may have wanted it so badly. It's too bad you have no ability to discuss things in a constructive manner. You might actually make a contribution to this site and the world.

[Bojay1997]

How could you tell that 25 were produced? I was thinking the other day that the mold might have been re-purposed from another plastic product or design/mold (possibly not even game related, like a plastic kitchen utensil handle, cover or something off-the-wall odd like that), hence it's unique features and character for a game case (O2 pull-tops excepted *inspiration?*).

If the production was extremely limited, then a full-on for mass production mold might not have been even used. Something inexpensive, not intended to be durable, also cheap and simple to fabricate. IDK what, but it seems more logical than the heavy investment for a low-print or sample/proto production.

There is a guy with some pretty specific info about the mold posting on Atari Age. I believe he said the mold cost $4,500 to fabricate. The story is starting to get very interesting.

[tom]

. You might actually make a contribution to this site and the world.

More so than you ever did so far.

[tom]

I know a few games did this, I'm just saying it was extremely rare. I don't mean to stir debate, I guess a conspiracy can be found in almost anything. Right now I'll give Tanman the benefit of the doubt.

If you know, why did you ask first if I knew any, which I did, and you sounded like there were none, which was of course, wrong.

[megasdkirby]

You seem dead set on believing this, but you don't have all of the information to make this statement. The only time Wonder sells games is when he gets a better condition version of something he already has or the few prototypes he's done runs for. Hang out at Atariage for a while and you'll learn this. His goals are not to make money with the game, he clearly doesn't need to buy/sell games to have the income he desires. He has stated many times that he wants to open a museum dedicated to the 2600 and this is an important piece to that puzzle. The value to him is not in resale and rather having a complete collection of something he enjoys and wants to share with others.

What people seem to be forgetting is that to some people, spending $30,000 is just as easy as spending $30. Whether or not the game is actually worth $30,000 is for each individual to decide. At this point in time, to the 2 top bidders of the auction, it is worth that.

Every person who I have ever known that claims that they will never sell have indeed sold at some point in their lives. I'm not referring to extras, but their collection per se. I've even met diehard collectors claim the same, and they have. So color me pessimistic about Wonder not selling. Unless he actually succeeds in creating a museum, I will maintain that it will sell at some point. It may be by him or via someone else, but it will sell. Now, if he does create the museum, I can see it not being sold, but until this happens, I'm not convinced he will not sell.

I hope another box is found someday, not to lower the value of the existing one, but to clarify whether it's legit or not (current box). Still, makes for a great discussion. :)

Only time will tell.


If you know, why did you ask first if I knew any, which I did, and you sounded like there were none, which was of course, wrong.

My head hurts! O_O

How is everyone? :)

[g/\/\3r]

Th15 15 50 5tp1d. J5t p1 th3 gm3 0n n 3m1t0r.

[TonyTheTiger]

A $4,500 custom mold to produce two dozen cartridges. The deeper the rabbit hole, the stranger the tale.

If that's the case then this really may not be just some Taiwanese hack job, at least not an ordinary one. The only time anybody uses an unusual design is when A) there aren't any better/cheaper options or B) they want the product to stand out.

If Men-A-Vision really wanted Air Raid to be something big then I can imagine them forking over the cash for a special casing and shopping 25 copies around to see if they get any bites for a larger print run. That makes at least some sense.

The problem, though, is the box. You'd think that if they were going to try to make the game stand out on the shelf they'd have made the box special, not the cartridge nobody would see until they already bought the game. When Nintendo did the special gold Zelda cartridge they cut a hole in the box for good reason. Who decides to intentionally use a unique cartridge shape but then takes absolutely no pride in the box the cartridge is encased in? Misspellings, nothing that particularly stands out, and an all around shitty aesthetic make me question the logic behind it all.

[98PaceCar]

Every person who I have ever known that claims that they will never sell have indeed sold at some point in their lives. I'm not referring to extras, but their collection per se. I've even met diehard collectors claim the same, and they have. So color me pessimistic about Wonder not selling. Unless he actually succeeds in creating a museum, I will maintain that it will sell at some point. It may be by him or via someone else, but it will sell. Now, if he does create the museum, I can see it not being sold, but until this happens, I'm not convinced he will not sell.

I hope another box is found someday, not to lower the value of the existing one, but to clarify whether it's legit or not (current box). Still, makes for a great discussion. :)

Only time will tell.

I think in many cases, you are right. Most people will fade from console collecting and usually sell off what they have as they move into a new hobby or new phase of their life. Wonder is a bit of a different story though and I feel like his history as a 2600 collector proves that he's in it for the long haul. Couple that with the fact that he really doesn't need the money back out of a game like this and I think it's forever his.

It is a bit unfair to say that every person will eventually sell though. I know of many collectors that are long timers that never sell anything and likely never will, barring some tragedy that forces their hand. I can say that in the 13 or so years I've been collecting I've never sold anything that I didn't have at least 2 copies of and usually wait until I have 3 or 4 before I break down and sell. I've been offered some very nice cash for a few things, but like Wonder, it's not about the money for me. It's more about having a piece of hardware or game that I really want than having whatever cash I could get out of it.


A $4,500 custom mold to produce two dozen cartridges. The deeper the rabbit hole, the stranger the tale.

If that's the case then this really may not be just some Taiwanese hack job, at least not an ordinary one. The only time anybody uses an unusual design is when A) there aren't any better/cheaper options or B) they want the product to stand out.

If Men-A-Vision really wanted Air Raid to be something big then I can imagine them forking over the cash for a special casing and shopping 25 copies around to see if they get any bites for a larger print run. That makes at least some sense.

The problem, though, is the box. You'd think that if they were going to try to make the game stand out on the shelf they'd have made the box special, not the cartridge nobody would see until they already bought the game. When Nintendo did the special gold Zelda cartridge they cut a hole in the box for good reason. Who decides to intentionally use a unique cartridge shape but then takes absolutely no pride in the box the cartridge is encased in? Misspellings, nothing that particularly stands out, and an all around shitty aesthetic make me question the logic behind it all.

Not really unusual at all. A lot of places will order a test run of parts before committing to a full order. We do it all the time at work. Those test parts will end up being used in prototype or even early release units instead of just scrapping them and eating the cost. If Men A Vision was as small an organization as it appears, I'd imagine they would have used every part they got.

What strikes me as odd is if the 25 manufactured number is correct, somewhere near 50% of the carts manufactured are accounted for. That number seems very high to me as I would have expected most of these to have been thrown away or lost over the years. Even with things like the Pepsi Invaders cart (125 made), only about a fifth or so (25+) of those have been accounted for over the years. It's possible Air Raid survived better than others, but that seems unlikely. I think there were more than 25 made, but until the mold or other info is found we may never know for sure.

[tom]

What I wanna know is, how much did ebay get from this auction?

[Zap!]

If you know, why did you ask first if I knew any, which I did, and you sounded like there were none, which was of course, wrong.

I heard there were a few, but I had never seen any and wasn't 100% positive, so I wanted to know for sure. I do appreciate the info. Any NTSC releases with no instructions?

[Icarus Moonsight]

Funny thought.

"Hey, I still have an Air Raid union crusher from the eighties in my kitchen."


According to the owner of the mold, a first sample run of 51 parts (25 and a half cartridges) was made and that was it.

8)

LOL Slap Chop: Air Raid Edition

That's a conclusion, or a what... I was more interested in how that was derived or inferred. Documentation, 51 notches on a bedpost, etc. :D

[TheDomesticInstitution]

In case anyone wants complete quotes... here are the 3 posts from the user who claims who's dad made the molds.


From Yesterday:


My father owned a injection molding company in the 70's-90's we were watching the news today and he started laughing He designed the mold and ran 51 parts shipped them out and never reserved payment. it was a test order for a company in Arkansas. He thinks he still has the molds. My father is retired and 74 yrs old. He is the type of man that saves everything, and forgets nothing. I have seen a few other old molds laying it the barn and they weigh a ton, so this should be fun on my back. We will be digging them out tomorrow.

Yesterday:


I more note before bed the whole operation from casting to shipping only cost my old man $4500.00 in 1980's money. I read though all this thread then posted this. Keep your fingers crossed,Or if I don't find them at least I might have 100 of you guys thinking it is some form of a late april fools joke :)

Today (Early this morning)


Ok the Name of the Company was Norwood Welding, tool, and die Located at 5312 Carthage Ave. Norwood Oh 45212 My Father Jay Moore was Contracted By Charles Rigdon of Felicity Plastics to create a Die/Mold. My father created, cast, made this mold. When Making a Mold it has to be tested. Dad said that 51 parts would really only be 25 and 1/2 games/carts. The one mold would run both sides of the cart. This test run is sent to the client and the mold is then sent to the injection molding people whom then make the carts. The reason why my father was never paid was not the game peoples fault but was the injection peoples. They told him that the parts were to big and the mold was returned. My fathers says his specs were never a small bit off. But the Client stated he made the cast for the part to large by about an inch. The 51 parts were not returned. I asked dad why the extra 1/2 and he said that there is always 1 extra for quality control. The parts were shipped to Arkansas to a P.O.Box with no name. I found this odd and after reading how skeptic everyone is I asked why would you send these parts to nobody. Dad said that Felicity plastics was where his paycheck came from not whomever else. Thats all the info I got, but I can tell you this. I remember my father coming in from work and scrapping potatoes into towels then putting them on his eyes to help with flash burns, he has a hard time seeing now. I was two young to remember much to any of this. I was born in 89 and I am only 20 now, I'll never tell him I said this but I believe my father messed up the order. You just have to know dad.... The jack of all trades master of none type of guy. Hope this has been helpful.

Anyway most of you are probably members at AA, but I'm one of the few that aren't. This is for those 3 people who may not be reading the thread over there... Anyway the more I read the more I'm interested. This may be complete bullshit... but it's still intriguing.

[TonyTheTiger]

Doesn't the cartridge have a screw hole on one side where there isn't one on the other and notches at the bottom of only one side? If that's the case the same mold can't be used for both sides.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Doesn't the cartridge have a screw hole on one side where there isn't one on the other and notches at the bottom of only one side? If that's the case the same mold can't be used for both sides.

I was thinking about that. I have no idea about Air Raid, but most carts have two seperate sides, so you can attach them to each other. It smells like bullshit- but it's fascinating. I'm sure we'll know soon enough. So little is actually known about this game that it takes a while to sort out the con artists- at least that's how I see it.

[Rom Hunter]

Air Raid consists of two different plastic cart sides.

You can see both parts on the Atarimania database.

8)

[Greg2600]

http://www.atariage.com/forums/public/style_images/atariage_rev2/snapback.png (http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=1990365)Stick, on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:47 PM, said:
I have been fighting the T-Storms and Weedeating all day to beable to even get into the Barn. Deforestification is one of my favorite pass times. I haven't seen anything yet and I really have no clue what it is I am looking for. After talking to dad and the fact that the cart brought 31 thousand I will admit I smell money so i am trying. Also to answer a few questions the parts were shipped to a P.O. Box 1987 Corinth AR 72824. Dad found a old carbon copy log book. My father said He had the blue material in the injector from running a test run of baby formula lids so I used it up. One more thing I still have yet to figure out how this is going to pay off for me just yet. If I do find this thing Dad could make more carts only if he could find the right mix of plastics to get the color and texture right, Which isn't easy and to sell the mold well shipping would be ungodly expensive.



That's the latest from the AA discussion from the "molders" son. So it's possible, as PingvinBlueJeans had reminded me over there, that Menavision stands for Mena, Arkansas.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Air Raid consists of two different plastic cart sides.

You can see both parts on the Atarimania database.

8)

Why hasn't anyone brought this up over there then? That to me seems to be a big unanswered question. On the other hand, there seems to be so many odd little details in his story, that it may not entirely be a lie.

[Carey85]

I'm currently in the midst of trying to contact Stick over at Atariage to see if I can't lend a hand in helping him find the Air Raid tooling as I believe that his story checks out.

[goatdan]

From what I know about injection molding and injection molds, as well as the design of the Air Raid cartridge, that story makes no sense. Air Raid has two sides to it as the side under the label has screws. If there was only 25, *especially* if they were sent as samples, that means way too many are still in existence -- over HALF the run.

A lot of 2600 games got thrown out back in the day. Give 25 people who probably aren't gamers a sample of a bad game during the video game crash, and it would be lucky if two survived. There is simply no way.

Either this guy's father is remembering things completely wrong, or this isn't the mold that they are looking for.

Also, if the molding was done in the US, why is Taiwan noted at all with it? I can't imagine they would send the molds over to Taiwan to be assembled, and I can't imagine their thought was to assemble everything in their run in the US after Taiwan shipped them the boards if that was the role Taiwan was to play. Finally, why are the PCBs inside (as I understand) production boards if the run was only 25?

I still say these are samples, but if they only ran 25 and found an error, they both wouldn't have finished the assembly of the carts -- either they wouldn't have fit in the cartridge slot or the PCBs wouldn't fit right, rendering them useless -- or they would have made the internals by hand. The fact that the carts are a finished product means they were definitely planning on producing more, and had geared up somewhere to do just that.

[TonyTheTiger]

Arkansas huh? Why the hell does the box say Taiwan and L.A.?

Curiouser and curiouser...

[Ryaan1234]

From what I know about injection molding and injection molds, as well as the design of the Air Raid cartridge, that story makes no sense. Air Raid has two sides to it as the side under the label has screws. If there was only 25, *especially* if they were sent as samples, that means way too many are still in existence -- over HALF the run.

A lot of 2600 games got thrown out back in the day. Give 25 people who probably aren't gamers a sample of a bad game during the video game crash, and it would be lucky if two survived. There is simply no way.

Either this guy's father is remembering things completely wrong, or this isn't the mold that they are looking for.

Also, if the molding was done in the US, why is Taiwan noted at all with it? I can't imagine they would send the molds over to Taiwan to be assembled, and I can't imagine their thought was to assemble everything in their run in the US after Taiwan shipped them the boards if that was the role Taiwan was to play. Finally, why are the PCBs inside (as I understand) production boards if the run was only 25?

I still say these are samples, but if they only ran 25 and found an error, they both wouldn't have finished the assembly of the carts -- either they wouldn't have fit in the cartridge slot or the PCBs wouldn't fit right, rendering them useless -- or they would have made the internals by hand. The fact that the carts are a finished product means they were definitely planning on producing more, and had geared up somewhere to do just that.
Who's to say that this guy's father was the only one who made cartridges from Men-A-Vision? Perhaps they had other people make handled carts for them.

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Finally, why are the PCBs inside (as I understand) production boards if the run was only 25?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The PCBs inside the Air Raid cartridges are generic EPROM boards with no markings, but they seem to have been made for those cartridge housings and haven't been found in any other games that I know of.


I still say these are samples, but if they only ran 25 and found an error, they both wouldn't have finished the assembly of the carts -- either they wouldn't have fit in the cartridge slot or the PCBs wouldn't fit right, rendering them useless -- or they would have made the internals by hand. The fact that the carts are a finished product means they were definitely planning on producing more, and had geared up somewhere to do just that.
Based on what he said (if it is in fact true), it sounds like the error could have had to do with the length of the T-handle, not the size of the cartridge. It could've been anything really.

In any event, the "error" claim could've just been a BS tactic by the company to get out of paying for the molds. Obviously whoever was behind Men-A-Vision wasn't exactly on the level.

[TonyTheTiger]

Hm. Come up with a weird unique design so that you can claim it's all wrong when the person you commissioned performs his duty? That's not too far fetched.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The story makes it sound more like Con-Men-A-Vision, huh? Someone should tell the mold hunter there that shipping wouldn't be an issue really... There is freight and in-person pickup.

I know a scrap or two about injection molds myself, it would make sense to me that both pieces would have been on the same die and with one injection precess, you'd produce both sides... Of course, unless the pieces were on separate dies (which would be still somewhat strange). So an odd number like 51 struck me as pretty odd from the get-go. Did get the 'how' though, which satiated the curiosity monster, for now. Thanks for cluing me in there. :) I don't look at AA or even NA often, only console/company specific board I look at very often is neo-geo forums.

[goatdan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The PCBs inside the Air Raid cartridges are generic EPROM boards with no markings, but they seem to have been made for those cartridge housings and haven't been found in any other games that I know of.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. They are generic EPROM boards, but they were *made* to fit in the cartridge housing and aren't in any other games. Which means that not just did this group have the cartridge mold created, they *also* commissioned someone to do a PCB design, something else that -- while not as expensive as injection molds, isn't cheap either.

So, if the run was 25, why weren't these boards obviously assembled by hand like prototypes? I'm guessing the run had to be at least 100.

[understatement]

I’m not buying this mold story. I’m in a similar occupation and one (among others) thing that’s not clicking right with me is the 1” “mistake”.

While it is ultimately up to the customer on what they want other factors play a role, for example: if we know that a structure needs to be galvanized we know everything about all the galvanizing companies and the exact dimensions of their galvanizing tubs so if the piece the customer wants is too big for the tub we make them aware and redesign or cut the piece to fit or one of many other options.

So I don’t see how he did this for a living and didn’t know the specifications needed by the companies he would use to fulfill his contracts.

[NoahsMyBro]

I haven't decided for myself whether or not to believe 'Stick' and his story about the molds, but by nature I tend to be more trusting than many people and the story is appealing.

As for the questions about why Men-A-Vision might have done things certain ways - maybe they were simply idiots. It seems to me that every post I've read so far about this, both here and over at AA, tries to make rational sense out of their behavior, and theorize things based on sound judgement.

* Maybe the MAV guys were stoners and making lousy decisions.
* Maybe they were trying to impress somebody (A girl, A guy, Mom, Dad, etc.... LOTS of VERY BAD choices have been made throughout history to impress a parent.)
* Maybe they were simply rotten businessmen and didn't sufficiently think things through.
* Maybe they sunk $5k into the operation, with dreams of this being the gamble that pays off.
* I can't really explain the printed references to LA and Taiwan. Maybe the producers thought this would appear more legit and/or more professional than something from Arkansas? I can certainly believe that they may have worried outsiders wouldn't trust or respect a new tech firm from an unheard-of town in Arkansas.

-------------------------------------
A couple of other unrelated side-notes -

1) Men-A-Vision - it occurs to me this could have been a variation of "Men of Vision", even if there is a link to Mena, AK.
2) The Jaguar components being reused for the dental equipment - somewhere in AA a link was posted to an eBay auction for the original Jaguar molds. Turns out the manufacturer of the dental equipment purchased the Jaguar molds and then re-purposed it, to use it to create the new casings for their dental machinery.
3) Nothing else, but I felt this list needed to have 3 items. :)

[Zap!]

Whoa! Now someone over at Audiokarma by the name of MeatInStereo is claiming his dad bought the game new for $1 when he was a kid! Here's the thread (http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3597673) and here's his two posts on it. He seems legit, with 671 posts there.


AHHH!!! I had that game!!! Going to my moms house and looking for it tonight!!!!


Really only 12 of them made....My dad brought that game home from Gold Circle back when I was a kid for me after work....he paid a buck for it...

[Greg2600]

Don't know if it's the same guy, but another person (http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/161612-air-raid-i-have-one/) came out of the woodwork with having the Air Raid game.

[Zap!]

Well, I registered on Audiokarma and asked him some questions about the game. Did I miss anything?

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3627791#post3627791

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Well, I registered on Audiokarma and asked him some questions about the game. Did I miss anything?

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3627791#post3627791
Yeah, you forgot to ask the guy for his social security number.

Seriously though...why not wait until the guy actually finds the game before bombarding him with questions? (Assuming he actually owned one in the first place, and he isn't just telling some fish story.)

[Zap!]

Yeah, you forgot to ask the guy for his social security number.

Seriously though...why not wait until the guy actually finds the game before bombarding him with questions? (Assuming he actually owned one in the first place, and he isn't just telling some fish story.)

Because his last post in that thread was on April 7, 11 days ago. Before mine, the last post was 4-11. I don't think there was gonna be any more activity there (it seems to be a very busy board), especially if he lost the cart. Perhaps he can offer some clues to the game. Hope he can help.

[Sanriostar]

Don't know if I'm beating a dead horse/moot point on this or not, but I can now say I was wrong; the box is real (I.E. how it looks is rather obvious that it was made in the 80's). I've seen it with my own eyes at last night's SC3 meet.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Also looks like the mold guy dropped off the face of the earth. Big surprise there.

[Zap!]

CPUWIZ, a master at making boxes, just posted this image. Hmm.

Now, it's implied that he's joking, but it looks damn like the other box, minus the price tag.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/160607-my-air-raid-auction-update/page__view__findpost__p__1999757

[TheDomesticInstitution]

All i see is a small fragment of a box. Is there another image?

[Zap!]

All i see is a small fragment of a box. Is there another image?

Here (http://www.men-a-vision.com/images/BurnedAirRaidBox.jpg) ya go!

[PingvinBlueJeans]

CPUWIZ, a master at making boxes, just posted this image. Hmm.

Now, it's implied that he's joking, but it looks damn like the other box, minus the price tag.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/160607-my-air-raid-auction-update/page__view__findpost__p__1999757
It's Photoshopped from the image of the (fake) River Patrol box he burned back in April.

[megasdkirby]

Here (http://www.men-a-vision.com/images/BurnedAirRaidBox.jpg) ya go!

Hehehe! :)

What gave it away was the brightness on the picture itself.

But it was still funny. :)

[Zap!]

Hehe, yup. I'm back in the "real" crowd again, sorry Tanner. I still have questions, but for now I lean 80% toward real.

There needs to be a name for box deniers. Ya know, like "truthers" or "birthers" get those cool names. :D

Boxers? Hoaxers?

[megasdkirby]

I swear, if I ever find a CIB copy of the game (in great condition), I am so going to ask $100,000 for it. :D

Heck, if I can find 10 of these...selling one per year...I can quit my job. LOL

[Gameguy]

There needs to be a name for box deniers. Ya know, like "truthers" or "birthers" get those cool names. :D

Boxers? Hoaxers?
What about a name for those who support the box? How about Men-A-Knights?

[Callin]

Hehe, yup. I'm back in the "real" crowd again, sorry Tanner. I still have questions, but for now I lean 80% toward real.

There needs to be a name for box deniers. Ya know, like "truthers" or "birthers" get those cool names. :D

Boxers? Hoaxers?
Spoofers?

Our purpose is twofold: To find problems with their so-called "box" and to search the globe for the real box. We'll start by claiming that those crease-marks on that box are SO photoshopped, because they're at impossible angles for any way in which the box could have been crushed. :D

[darkslime]

Is it possible that Tuesday Morning still has records of what companies they purchased from in '82? Maybe someone should contact them and ask if they can help at all.

[Astrocade]

You know what's funny is that I had never really heard of Tuesday Morning prior to this controversy. I always thought it was a fat ladies clothing store. I went in one the other day and bought Prince of Persia: Sands of Time on the PS2 for 3.99.

They also had some of those fake Wii guns, golf clubs and tennis rackets, so it's entirely possible (I suppose) that they carried some offbeat Atari titles some time in the past. Hell, I found a Famiclone once at Big Lots back around 1992- it was called the Reggie Entertainment System and it had one of those 72-in one carts with it. How the heck a South African bootleg NES wound up at Big Lots beats the hell out of me.

[Swamperon]

Is it possible that Tuesday Morning still has records of what companies they purchased from in '82? Maybe someone should contact them and ask if they can help at all.

They probably will have (or rather should do) a complete record of all of their orders, but then what company employee is going to bother tracking down a 28 year old piece of paper for some random person on the phone..? Wouldn't hurt to try though.

[Trevelyan]

wow, having been blown away by those megadrive protos, now this! amazing :D

[Gameguy]

They probably will have (or rather should do) a complete record of all of their orders, but then what company employee is going to bother tracking down a 28 year old piece of paper for some random person on the phone..? Wouldn't hurt to try though.
I doubt that they'll have records going back that far, I would think they'll keep records for the last 6 or 7 years for tax purposes(whatever would be required for an audit) and that's it. Keeping records like that for 28+ years would take up a lot of storage space and they're really not needed.

[darkslime]

Tuesday Morning Corporate Office Headquarters
6250 LBJ Freeway
Dallas, TX 75240-6321
(972) 387-3562

If anyone wants to try calling go ahead.

But honestly to me the whole thing has a bunch of loopholes, and I don't think Tuesday Morning even sold it.

[darkslime]

Also sorry to double post, but maybe someone could try emailing this marketing research company in Dubai called menavision to see if they made the game?

http://menavision.net/

email: contact [at] menavision.net

[Callin]

Tuesday Morning Corporate Office Headquarters
6250 LBJ Freeway
Dallas, TX 75240-6321
(972) 387-3562

If anyone wants to try calling go ahead.

But honestly to me the whole thing has a bunch of loopholes, and I don't think Tuesday Morning even sold it.
I think the seller confirmed that this was the Tuesday Morning he got it from:
http://www.mapquest.com/listings/Tuesday_Morning_Arlington_TX_9192740?placement=res ults_org_map

They've got their own phone number.